Washington University in St. Louis vs Vanderbilt (MSTP)

[BOA13]

I created this thread because I have been going back and forth in my head for several weeks now about which school is for me. I know that they are both good schools and I enjoyed the atmosphere and environment at both institutions, but I don't know how to decide what institution will be best for me for the next 8 years. I thought that attending the revisit weekends for both schools would help make my choice more clear, but both revisit weekends are on the same weekend. And the schedules are almost identical. Both will be doing an overview of the medical school curriculum on Saturday and a housing tour on Sunday. Knowing where I'm going to live and who I'm going to be taking medical school classes were to of the major factors that I want to use to help me make a choice.

So I made a list of pros and cons for each school:

WashU Pros:
- Strong neuroscience program and various research opportunities
- Great track record for placing students in highly ranked residencies
- A lot of resources for both medical and graduate students
- Years 1 and 2 are pass/fail
- I am familiar with St. Louis because I did research there for ten weeks during the summer
- Because of my summer internship I've had a chance to get to know some of the administration a little better and I have a good idea of who to talk to about issues that may arise as far as finding a mentor, lab rotation etc.
- The cost of living is lower than where I currently live

WashU Cons:
- Not sure about how much support is offered for minority students
- The vibe I got from the students was that they are very capable and driven, but not necessarily close knit
- My interactions with faculty members varied greatly
- Although I enjoyed my visit at WashU I really really enjoyed my visit at Vanderbilt. (I don't know if this is necessarily a con, or just a question of "fit").


Vanderbilt Pros:
- Met a faculty member who is doing the exact kind of research I'm interested in (although I realize this could change)
- The students and faculty I met were very warm and encouraging
- Also pass fail
- Also a relatively good cost of living
- There was a large emphasis placed on the support for minority students as well as the importance of increasing and maintaining diversity even beyond the medical school class
- Emphasized career development and making sure students were prepared for the next phase of their careers after MD/PhD
- students genuinely seemed happy
- The Director of the program is very closely linked to the PSTP at Vanderbilt (for MD/PhD residents)

Vanderbilt Cons:
- I am less familiar with the area
- The program has recently changed the curriculum for MD/PhD students so that rather than being the traditional 2-4-2 it is now a 2-4-3. Where clinical rotations begin before PhD training. Initially I thought this was pretty cool because that means when choosing a lab I could base my choice off of my clinical interests since I'll have that experience, but I also realize that when applying for residency programs my clinical experiences will be at least 5 years old at that point. So the timeline kind of throws me off. Especially for taking step 1 and step 2 (this one is a biggie)
- I have never lived in the south before (I'm from the east coast) and I'm not sure how much of a culture shock to expect.


This is the list I've kind of been rolling around in my head. If anyone could offer any insight or advice I would really appreciate it!

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[WhittyPsyche]

I created this thread because I have been going back and forth in my head for several weeks now about which school is for me. I know that they are both good schools and I enjoyed the atmosphere and environment at both institutions, but I don't know how to decide what institution will be best for me for the next 8 years. I thought that attending the revisit weekends for both schools would help make my choice more clear, but both revisit weekends are on the same weekend. And the schedules are almost identical. Both will be doing an overview of the medical school curriculum on Saturday and a housing tour on Sunday. Knowing where I'm going to live and who I'm going to be taking medical school classes were to of the major factors that I want to use to help me make a choice.

So I made a list of pros and cons for each school:

WashU Pros:
- Strong neuroscience program and various research opportunities
- Great track record for placing students in highly ranked residencies
- A lot of resources for both medical and graduate students
- Years 1 and 2 are pass/fail
- I am familiar with St. Louis because I did research there for ten weeks during the summer
- Because of my summer internship I've had a chance to get to know some of the administration a little better and I have a good idea of who to talk to about issues that may arise as far as finding a mentor, lab rotation etc.
- The cost of living is lower than where I currently live

WashU Cons:
- Not sure about how much support is offered for minority students
- The vibe I got from the students was that they are very capable and driven, but not necessarily close knit
- My interactions with faculty members varied greatly
- Although I enjoyed my visit at WashU I really really enjoyed my visit at Vanderbilt. (I don't know if this is necessarily a con, or just a question of "fit").


Vanderbilt Pros:
- Met a faculty member who is doing the exact kind of research I'm interested in (although I realize this could change)
- The students and faculty I met were very warm and encouraging
- Also pass fail
- Also a relatively good cost of living
- There was a large emphasis placed on the support for minority students as well as the importance of increasing and maintaining diversity even beyond the medical school class
- Emphasized career development and making sure students were prepared for the next phase of their careers after MD/PhD
- students genuinely seemed happy
- The Director of the program is very closely linked to the PSTP at Vanderbilt (for MD/PhD residents)

Vanderbilt Cons:
- I am less familiar with the area
- The program has recently changed the curriculum for MD/PhD students so that rather than being the traditional 2-4-2 it is now a 2-4-3. Where clinical rotations begin before PhD training. Initially I thought this was pretty cool because that means when choosing a lab I could base my choice off of my clinical interests since I'll have that experience, but I also realize that when applying for residency programs my clinical experiences will be at least 5 years old at that point. So the timeline kind of throws me off. Especially for taking step 1 and step 2 (this one is a biggie)
- I have never lived in the south before (I'm from the east coast) and I'm not sure how much of a culture shock to expect.


This is the list I've kind of been rolling around in my head. If anyone could offer any insight or advice I would really appreciate it!

Hi,

Can we get a bit more information on your personal motivations? My first distinction is it seems you have an MSTP option vs a regular MD program. How important is the MD/PhD to you? I'm not entirely sure why we are compare to very different routes. Are you planning to try for internal PhD if you attended WashU? If so, did you discuss the ease of applying internally? Is a big motivation for the MSTP the free education? If so how do you weigh your financial situation in paying for the MD?

Other notes. I can't speak to living in the south. My experience at WashU was surprisingly wonderful and I got a good vibe from all the faculty. Whether the students care about diversity, I couldn't say. And likewise don't think the students were super close. But I liked the environment overall.

 

[BOA13]

Hi,

Can we get a bit more information on your personal motivations? My first distinction is it seems you have an MSTP option vs a regular MD program. How important is the MD/PhD to you? I'm not entirely sure why we are compare to very different routes. Are you planning to try for internal PhD if you attended WashU? If so, did you discuss the ease of applying internally? Is a big motivation for the MSTP the free education? If so how do you weigh your financial situation in paying for the MD?

Other notes. I can't speak to living in the south. My experience at WashU was surprisingly wonderful and I got a good vibe from all the faculty. Whether the students care about diversity, I couldn't say. And likewise don't think the students were super close. But I liked the environment overall.

Hi,

I was accepted into the MD/PhD programs at both WashU and Vanderbilt. The way I organized the title may have been misleading. My motivation for pursuing an MD/PhD is that I would like to work in academic medicine with ability to conduct research and treat patients. My research interest is primarily in neuroscience with a focus in neuroendocrinology.

I liked WashU I know its a strong program, but the advice that I have received throughout my interview process has been to look for an environment that is a "good fit" because I will be spending 7-8 years in that location. The vibe that I got from WashU is that they have the resources and the credentials to train MD/PhD students extremely well and I know that their name carries a lot of weight because they are known for their exceptional training. The vibe that I got from Vanderbilt is that they are very student oriented, and they put a lot of focus into developing their students and facilitating a collaborative atmosphere.

But the truth is its very difficult to gauge what I will want and need out of a program 2, 4, or 6 years down the road. So I created this thread with the goal of gaining insight from people who may have visited or attended either institution or who are perhaps also on the MD/PhD track who may be able to offer their perspectives and/or insights.

 

[maradona10]

Hi,

I was accepted into the MD/PhD programs at both WashU and Vanderbilt. The way I organized the title may have been misleading. My motivation for pursuing an MD/PhD is that I would like to work in academic medicine with ability to conduct research and treat patients. My research interest is primarily in neuroscience with a focus in neuroendocrinology.

I liked WashU I know its a strong program, but the advice that I have received throughout my interview process has been to look for an environment that is a "good fit" because I will be spending 7-8 years in that location. The vibe that I got from WashU is that they have the resources and the credentials to train MD/PhD students extremely well and I know that their name carries a lot of weight because they are known for their exceptional training. The vibe that I got from Vanderbilt is that they are very student oriented, and they put a lot of focus into developing their students and facilitating a collaborative atmosphere.

But the truth is its very difficult to gauge what I will want and need out of a program 2, 4, or 6 years down the road. So I created this thread with the goal of gaining insight from people who may have visited or attended either institution or who are perhaps also on the MD/PhD track who may be able to offer their perspectives and/or insights.

Congrats! Both are very good programs!

I am going to keep this short and sweet:

Wash U is a MSTP powerhouse. Going here will open many doors and everyone knows about their reputation for producing great physician-scientists. I think if you want good mentorship (many current MD-PhD alums there) and want to be trained to be a successful and thought-provoking physician- scientists this is the place to go.

Vanderbilt is a little less known for its MD/PhD training program and might not have the same reputation down the road when applying to residency/research fellows.

Ultimately, it's a long road and you should look at where the alumni are currently. Also, it's important to look at where you can see yourself living, both a re great locations.

Dont know how far these programs/cities are but maybe you can visit both in the same weekend ? Or visit students from both/ask to have a personal second look.

Anyways, I think both are great schools and you will get great training. Good luck in deciding!

 

[maradona10]

I created this thread because I have been going back and forth in my head for several weeks now about which school is for me. I know that they are both good schools and I enjoyed the atmosphere and environment at both institutions, but I don't know how to decide what institution will be best for me for the next 8 years. I thought that attending the revisit weekends for both schools would help make my choice more clear, but both revisit weekends are on the same weekend. And the schedules are almost identical. Both will be doing an overview of the medical school curriculum on Saturday and a housing tour on Sunday. Knowing where I'm going to live and who I'm going to be taking medical school classes were to of the major factors that I want to use to help me make a choice.

So I made a list of pros and cons for each school:

WashU Pros:
- Strong neuroscience program and various research opportunities
- Great track record for placing students in highly ranked residencies
- A lot of resources for both medical and graduate students
- Years 1 and 2 are pass/fail
- I am familiar with St. Louis because I did research there for ten weeks during the summer
- Because of my summer internship I've had a chance to get to know some of the administration a little better and I have a good idea of who to talk to about issues that may arise as far as finding a mentor, lab rotation etc.
- The cost of living is lower than where I currently live

WashU Cons:
- Not sure about how much support is offered for minority students
- The vibe I got from the students was that they are very capable and driven, but not necessarily close knit
- My interactions with faculty members varied greatly
- Although I enjoyed my visit at WashU I really really enjoyed my visit at Vanderbilt. (I don't know if this is necessarily a con, or just a question of "fit").


Vanderbilt Pros:
- Met a faculty member who is doing the exact kind of research I'm interested in (although I realize this could change)
- The students and faculty I met were very warm and encouraging
- Also pass fail
- Also a relatively good cost of living
- There was a large emphasis placed on the support for minority students as well as the importance of increasing and maintaining diversity even beyond the medical school class
- Emphasized career development and making sure students were prepared for the next phase of their careers after MD/PhD
- students genuinely seemed happy
- The Director of the program is very closely linked to the PSTP at Vanderbilt (for MD/PhD residents)

Vanderbilt Cons:
- I am less familiar with the area
- The program has recently changed the curriculum for MD/PhD students so that rather than being the traditional 2-4-2 it is now a 2-4-3. Where clinical rotations begin before PhD training. Initially I thought this was pretty cool because that means when choosing a lab I could base my choice off of my clinical interests since I'll have that experience, but I also realize that when applying for residency programs my clinical experiences will be at least 5 years old at that point. So the timeline kind of throws me off. Especially for taking step 1 and step 2 (this one is a biggie)
- I have never lived in the south before (I'm from the east coast) and I'm not sure how much of a culture shock to expect.


This is the list I've kind of been rolling around in my head. If anyone could offer any insight or advice I would really appreciate it!

Also, I think WashU has a higher stipend, but I think cost-of-living is relatively the same in both cities. Someone quote me if I'm wrong though.

 

[BOA13]

Congrats! Both are very good programs!

I am going to keep this short and sweet:

Wash U is a MSTP powerhouse. Going here will open many doors and everyone knows about their reputation for producing great physician-scientists. I think if you want good mentorship (many current MD-PhD alums there) and want to be trained to be a successful and thought-provoking physician- scientists this is the place to go.

Vanderbilt is a little less known for its MD/PhD training program and might not have the same reputation down the road when applying to residency/research fellows.

Ultimately, it's a long road and you should look at where the alumni are currently. Also, it's important to look at where you can see yourself living, both a re great locations.

Dont know how far these programs/cities are but maybe you can visit both in the same weekend ? Or visit students from both/ask to have a personal second look.

Anyways, I think both are great schools and you will get great training. Good luck in deciding!

Hello! Thanks for your response! In an email from WashU it stated that there were no opportunities to visit outside of their scheduled second look weekend. I've been in contact with Vanderbilt about scheduling a time outside of the second look weekend to come back once more before I make a decision, but they suggested I come for just part of the weekend rather than a different weekend altogether. The reason I'm hesitant to split my time between both second look visits is because the schedules are almost identical. Both programs have made Friday a chance to meet with faculty and mingle with current MSTP students whereas Saturday and Sunday are dedicated to a medical school orientation and a tour of the cities/housing. I feel like if I split my time between both, I would be attempting to compare apples to oranges as far as my experiences at each institution.

I will definitely follow your advice as far as looking at where alumni are currently. It's beginning to seem like I may just have to forfeit having a second look at one of the institutions.

 

[BOA13]

I've also been reading through previous threads that people posted to gauge other people's experiences at either institution. I realize that everyone is different and what's important to them is different so I sat down and thought about what things were most important for me and this is what I came up with:

• Diversity: I was born and raised on the east coast and attended university here as well. So I’m used to being able to eat Nigerian, Ethiopian, Korean, and Cuban food within the same week depending on how I feel. I realize that as far as diversity goes that can be measured based on ethnicity, environment, or even socioeconomic status, but I think the more diversity the better. Especially because I think a school that values diversity in its students reflects an understanding that it's important for the medical and academic environment in general.

• Strong support system: Both within the student body and from the administration (8 years is a long time). I want to be surrounded by others who are invested in my success as well, rather than students who are constantly trying to one up each other)

• Opportunities for professional development: I’d like to learn about diverse careers available to MD/PhD students. Right now my focus is in academic medicine because that’s what I’ve been exposed to and I see it as a way to combine my research experience with my clinical experience, but I realize that there may be other settings in which I can utilize these skills.

• Variety of research opportunities: Again, my area of focus (neuroscience) is based on my interests and what I have been exposed to, but I would like the option to explore different fields even just within neuroscience such as neurodevelopment vs. neurodegeneration vs. addiction research.

• Cost of Living: I’ll be living on a stipend so I want to be in a place where I won’t be the cliche student eating ramen noodles and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches all the time. And I know most of my time will be spent in school or in lab, but when I do come home I would like to be in a reasonably comfortable low stress environment.

• Strong mentorship: This kind of ties into the idea of the support system, but having mentors that can offer insight based on their knowledge and experiences has been crucial to getting me to this point in the first place. That’s something that I want to be able to cultivate at this next stage in my life as well. I think this is especially important in regards to finding research labs. Because there could be hundreds of golden opportunities in great labs, but if my only way of finding these opportunities is through internet searches I may miss something important. So how the program facilitates this process is important to me as well.
  

 

[maradona10]

quick and short reply:

I think both are similar in diversity where there is some, but not something you will find at a city like NYC, for example.

I believe both would be good for professional development since they are decent sized programs. WashU with a large MSTP-focus and student body could possibly hold more MD-PhD specific events/programs/opportunities and maybe more MD-PhD faculty there that you can interact with?

I was reading another post similar (you can search it up) and people, not sure if applicants or med students, were saying that WashU has one if the, if not strongest Neuroscience departments for all MSTP programs. Again, you should search this up yourself but that;s what I saw because the poster was also interested in this field.

Cost of living: I would assume very similar? Therefore, might be better to look at the stipend amount. You should ask current students how their quality of life is currently if given the chance.

Not too sure about Mentorship but I would assume any top programs like these two here would be good in this department.

Overall, I think you should search on the forums. There are many people that were deciding between WashU and another program and there you can see what people think about WashU. Personally, I believe either program will get you to where you wanna be. The only caveat is if you think the prestige/popularity/history of the WashU MSTP program is for you and your career goals (could help if thinking on a comp spec, etc.).

I'm not an expert on this but figured I would give it a go since not many others were replying. GL and update us with your choice.

 

[maradona10]

I've also been reading through previous threads that people posted to gauge other people's experiences at either institution. I realize that everyone is different and what's important to them is different so I sat down and thought about what things were most important for me and this is what I came up with:

• Diversity: I was born and raised on the east coast and attended university here as well. So I’m used to being able to eat Nigerian, Ethiopian, Korean, and Cuban food within the same week depending on how I feel. I realize that as far as diversity goes that can be measured based on ethnicity, environment, or even socioeconomic status, but I think the more diversity the better. Especially because I think a school that values diversity in its students reflects an understanding that it's important for the medical and academic environment in general.

• Strong support system: Both within the student body and from the administration (8 years is a long time). I want to be surrounded by others who are invested in my success as well, rather than students who are constantly trying to one up each other)

• Opportunities for professional development: I’d like to learn about diverse careers available to MD/PhD students. Right now my focus is in academic medicine because that’s what I’ve been exposed to and I see it as a way to combine my research experience with my clinical experience, but I realize that there may be other settings in which I can utilize these skills.

• Variety of research opportunities: Again, my area of focus (neuroscience) is based on my interests and what I have been exposed to, but I would like the option to explore different fields even just within neuroscience such as neurodevelopment vs. neurodegeneration vs. addiction research.

• Cost of Living: I’ll be living on a stipend so I want to be in a place where I won’t be the cliche student eating ramen noodles and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches all the time. And I know most of my time will be spent in school or in lab, but when I do come home I would like to be in a reasonably comfortable low stress environment.

• Strong mentorship: This kind of ties into the idea of the support system, but having mentors that can offer insight based on their knowledge and experiences has been crucial to getting me to this point in the first place. That’s something that I want to be able to cultivate at this next stage in my life as well. I think this is especially important in regards to finding research labs. Because there could be hundreds of golden opportunities in great labs, but if my only way of finding these opportunities is through internet searches I may miss something important. So how the program facilitates this process is important to me as well.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/washu-vs-vanderbilt.1133413/#post-16434597

 

[maradona10]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/washu-vs-vanderbilt.1133413/#post-16434597

In this thread, it seems like 1 poster says living close to Vandy is expensive. So maybe you can look into how far you wanna be from these schools and gauge cost of living off that?

 

[BOA13]

quick and short reply:

I think both are similar in diversity where there is some, but not something you will find at a city like NYC, for example.

I believe both would be good for professional development since they are decent sized programs. WashU with a large MSTP-focus and student body could possibly hold more MD-PhD specific events/programs/opportunities and maybe more MD-PhD faculty there that you can interact with?

I was reading another post similar (you can search it up) and people, not sure if applicants or med students, were saying that WashU has one if the, if not strongest Neuroscience departments for all MSTP programs. Again, you should search this up yourself but that;s what I saw because the poster was also interested in this field.

Cost of living: I would assume very similar? Therefore, might be better to look at the stipend amount. You should ask current students how their quality of life is currently if given the chance.

Not too sure about Mentorship but I would assume any top programs like these two here would be good in this department.

Overall, I think you should search on the forums. There are many people that were deciding between WashU and another program and there you can see what people think about WashU. Personally, I believe either program will get you to where you wanna be. The only caveat is if you think the prestige/popularity/history of the WashU MSTP program is for you and your career goals (could help if thinking on a comp spec, etc.).

I'm not an expert on this but figured I would give it a go since not many others were replying. GL and update us with your choice.

Again, thanks for your response. I've gone through other threads as you suggested and I've decided to attend the second look at WashU. I appreciate your insight

 

[Chromium Surfer]

@eteshoe is in academic medicine and might be able to chime in some insight.

Either way best of luck wherever you decide to go OP!

 

[BOA13]

@eteshoe is in academic medicine and might be able to chime in some insight.

Either way best of luck wherever you decide to go OP!

Thank you!

 

[eteshoe]

Whoa so there's a lot of information here so I'll try my best to synthesize my thoughts (I was gonna quote your posts but that became cumbersome). Before getting into the meat of my answer I just wanted to give a few tips/clarifications:
- clarification: @Chromium Surfer thanks for tagging me into the convo. I am technically aiming from academic medicine (though I'll probably eventually work in industry), but I'm currently in the middle of my training at a T10 MSTP program (GS-3 currently) - so I guess in that sense I am in academic medicine (or at least around it everyday lol).

- tips: @BOA13 just thought I'd let you know that there is a physician scientist forum on SDN that I frequent pretty regularly (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/physician-scientists.32/). There are current students, residents, fellows, and faculty that tend to also be pretty good about answering questions about the dual degree pathway there.

- disclaimer: I do not attend either program, but I did interview at WashU yrs ago, but chose a different program that was a better fit for me. I've visited friends at Vanderbilt so my exposure to Nashville is also limited.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright let's get into the meat of the issue (the following is my opinion and primarily based on my experiences from 5 yrs ago when applying, current friends in the programs, etc):

1. Congrats on getting accepted into these two fantastic programs. The training you'll receive at both won't preclude you from being able to pursue whatever specialty you desire provided that you perform well in both degrees (strong med school performance, strong PhD, strong step scores, strong clerkship grades).

2. You are correct in stating that finding the best fit is waaaay more important than the ranking/name of the institution. My cohort is pretty close knit (we're on the smaller side) and I've gotten to be pretty good friends w/ some of the straight PhD students & postdocs in my department and in various departments/programs in my school (though I am an outgoing person so it helps). I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to be surrounded by welcoming and encouraging people (unlike some of my friends who stayed up in Boston). Between WashU and Vanderbilt, the quality of research will be quite similar w/ strong neuroscience investigators at both institutions. So on that front, the decision will really come down to your preferences. My advice is to always make a list of 3-6 PIs you could realistically see yourself working with and to explore widely enough because there's always some cool research going on in some lab that may not be a primary lab in your chosen PhD department (definitely check out secondary faculty and don't be afraid to go out of your comfort zone). If need be email some of the grad students or postdocs in the labs of interest and see if you could have a short phone convo about their experiences.

3. From what I remember and what my friend has told me about WashU - very solid training, supportive program, good placement for those wanting to do academic medicine. Vanderbilt is pretty good as well; the research may not be all the way up at WashU's level but top-tier nonetheless. I'm a huge fan of the preclinical and clinical year before the PhD since I'm of the opinion that one should make their PhD research align as closely with their clinical specialty of interest (in my case I'm going into med heme/onc and I'm in a cancer biology program and getting some of my clinical rotations in before the PhD was quite helpful in solidifying my lab choice). P/F is also an awesome thing since it allows you to really dive deep into learning the material w/o stressing you out about getting A's on everything (my opinion anyhow).

4. Just thought I'd clarify that while Vanderbilt is in the "South", and WashU is in the "Midwest", the two will be pretty similar in atmosphere since you're sort of insulated being in such large academic centers. All I'm trying to say is not to worry, the people in the towns are always nice and are very similar political leanings as the big east coast towns. As far as the stipend: you're not gonna be close to starving at either place unless you have no self-control over your spending. The nice thing about living in a relatively low COL area is that your money stretches (I've done several weekend trips with friends, etc.) - also don't be scared to find the money at your institution (I've been able to attend 3 conferences so far w/o paying a dime ). The food scene in Nashville is pretty dope though (St. Luis isn't slacking either but it's been a while since I've been there).

5. I wanted to make a comment on the support of minority students and making a concerted effort to diversify. My school really does an excellent job in this realm (especially during the PhD years) and it was one of the features that really attracted me to said institution. I'll tell you right now, there will be some dark days during the PhD (I mean med school can suck at times, but it's not as nebulous as grad school so it's a bit different), and being able to just go talk to someone who understands your struggle w/0 fear of judgment or reprimand is an amazing asset.

The most important factors in my opinion for making your decision (ultimately don't ignore your gut feeling - sometimes if it looks all good on paper, your gut is pretty good at bringing to the surface those feelings which you can't quite construct into conscience critiques):
- med school curriculum (p/f, clinical yr before phd, diversity of clinical training environments, non-mandatory class attendance, etc)

- phd program/department (have they had MSTPs graduate before? Do not be a guinea pig. You need to be in a department that understands the structure and works well w/ the MSTP admin to ensure smooth sailing (or as smooth as it'll be considering that research be fickle lol))

- mentor (I cannot stress this enough. I had to switch labs after a year due to my former mentor being a (brilliant) ***hole. The mentor should be someone you can get along w/ and be willing to support your professional development in whatever capacity their position allows) - I can't say if going for junior faculty vs senior faculty is better but evaluate your best research experiences and see what about the mentor made the environment good/workable.

- (optional but important) support for minority students - let's face it, you'll most likely be one of the handful of minority students in the dual degree program and having some administrative support/resources never hurts

- location (can you see yourself living in the city for the next 8-9 yrs or more depending on if you want to stay on for residency/fellowship)

Hopefully I answered some of your questions/concerns, and if you have anymore I'm available by PM. Again, congrats on your acceptances and good luck!

 

[BOA13]

Whoa so there's a lot of information here so I'll try my best to synthesize my thoughts (I was gonna quote your posts but that became cumbersome). Before getting into the meat of my answer I just wanted to give a few tips/clarifications:
- clarification: @Chromium Surfer thanks for tagging me into the convo. I am technically aiming from academic medicine (though I'll probably eventually work in industry), but I'm currently in the middle of my training at a T10 MSTP program (GS-3 currently) - so I guess in that sense I am in academic medicine (or at least around it everyday lol).

- tips: @BOA13 just thought I'd let you know that there is a physician scientist forum on SDN that I frequent pretty regularly (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/physician-scientists.32/). There are current students, residents, fellows, and faculty that tend to also be pretty good about answering questions about the dual degree pathway there.

- disclaimer: I do not attend either program, but I did interview at WashU yrs ago, but chose a different program that was a better fit for me. I've visited friends at Vanderbilt so my exposure to Nashville is also limited.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright let's get into the meat of the issue (the following is my opinion and primarily based on my experiences from 5 yrs ago when applying, current friends in the programs, etc):

1. Congrats on getting accepted into these two fantastic programs. The training you'll receive at both won't preclude you from being able to pursue whatever specialty you desire provided that you perform well in both degrees (strong med school performance, strong PhD, strong step scores, strong clerkship grades).

2. You are correct in stating that finding the best fit is waaaay more important than the ranking/name of the institution. My cohort is pretty close knit (we're on the smaller side) and I've gotten to be pretty good friends w/ some of the straight PhD students & postdocs in my department and in various departments/programs in my school (though I am an outgoing person so it helps). I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to be surrounded by welcoming and encouraging people (unlike some of my friends who stayed up in Boston). Between WashU and Vanderbilt, the quality of research will be quite similar w/ strong neuroscience investigators at both institutions. So on that front, the decision will really come down to your preferences. My advice is to always make a list of 3-6 PIs you could realistically see yourself working with and to explore widely enough because there's always some cool research going on in some lab that may not be a primary lab in your chosen PhD department (definitely check out secondary faculty and don't be afraid to go out of your comfort zone). If need be email some of the grad students or postdocs in the labs of interest and see if you could have a short phone convo about their experiences.

3. From what I remember and what my friend has told me about WashU - very solid training, supportive program, good placement for those wanting to do academic medicine. Vanderbilt is pretty good as well; the research may not be all the way up at WashU's level but top-tier nonetheless. I'm a huge fan of the preclinical and clinical year before the PhD since I'm of the opinion that one should make their PhD research align as closely with their clinical specialty of interest (in my case I'm going into med heme/onc and I'm in a cancer biology program and getting some of my clinical rotations in before the PhD was quite helpful in solidifying my lab choice). P/F is also an awesome thing since it allows you to really dive deep into learning the material w/o stressing you out about getting A's on everything (my opinion anyhow).

4. Just thought I'd clarify that while Vanderbilt is in the "South", and WashU is in the "Midwest", the two will be pretty similar in atmosphere since you're sort of insulated being in such large academic centers. All I'm trying to say is not to worry, the people in the towns are always nice and are very similar political leanings as the big east coast towns. As far as the stipend: you're not gonna be close to starving at either place unless you have no self-control over your spending. The nice thing about living in a relatively low COL area is that your money stretches (I've done several weekend trips with friends, etc.) - also don't be scared to find the money at your institution (I've been able to attend 3 conferences so far w/o paying a dime ). The food scene in Nashville is pretty dope though (St. Luis isn't slacking either but it's been a while since I've been there).

5. I wanted to make a comment on the support of minority students and making a concerted effort to diversify. My school really does an excellent job in this realm (especially during the PhD years) and it was one of the features that really attracted me to said institution. I'll tell you right now, there will be some dark days during the PhD (I mean med school can suck at times, but it's not as nebulous as grad school so it's a bit different), and being able to just go talk to someone who understands your struggle w/0 fear of judgment or reprimand is an amazing asset.

The most important factors in my opinion for making your decision (ultimately don't ignore your gut feeling - sometimes if it looks all good on paper, your gut is pretty good at bringing to the surface those feelings which you can't quite construct into conscience critiques):
- med school curriculum (p/f, clinical yr before phd, diversity of clinical training environments, non-mandatory class attendance, etc)

- phd program/department (have they had MSTPs graduate before? Do not be a guinea pig. You need to be in a department that understands the structure and works well w/ the MSTP admin to ensure smooth sailing (or as smooth as it'll be considering that research be fickle lol))

- mentor (I cannot stress this enough. I had to switch labs after a year due to my former mentor being a (brilliant) ***hole. The mentor should be someone you can get along w/ and be willing to support your professional development in whatever capacity their position allows) - I can't say if going for junior faculty vs senior faculty is better but evaluate your best research experiences and see what about the mentor made the environment good/workable.

- (optional but important) support for minority students - let's face it, you'll most likely be one of the handful of minority students in the dual degree program and having some administrative support/resources never hurts

- location (can you see yourself living in the city for the next 8-9 yrs or more depending on if you want to stay on for residency/fellowship)

Hopefully I answered some of your questions/concerns, and if you have anymore I'm available by PM. Again, congrats on your acceptances and good luck!

Thank you very much! Your answer was very thorough and made a lot of sense. And I appreciate the link for the physician-scientists forum as well. Since I decided to attend WashU's second look I'm making an effort to reach out to students and faculty that I came into contact with during my interview at Vanderbilt to ask about their experiences etc.

But ultimately I think you are very right about the gut feeling and the importance of finding strong mentorship wherever I go. Thanks again!