Vote for President

[DrCommonSense]

If he is an American citizen, he should have equal rights. Why would his race/religion matter?

Correct "equal" rights, hence ENDING affirmative action for him which allows preference.

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[Pooh & Annie]

Yeah LBJ would know since he used the N word often since you seem to like to quote him as our liberal paragon of truth.

I do? I said anything remotely like that?

Like I said, if you're gullible and don't know, you accuse with hyperbole. If you have a good convincing point to make, that's what you do.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Correct "equal" rights, hence ENDING affirmative action for him which allows preference.

Not sure I'm following but you do know why affirmative action was put into place right? Let me guess, to discriminate against the white male right?

We should get rid of handicapped parking while we are at it! Let them walk! Equality for all!

 

[DrCommonSense]

Not sure I'm following but you do know why affirmative action was put into place right? Let me guess, to discriminate against the white male right?

It was INITIALLY put in place to help minorities with a history of discrimination such as African Americans.

However, this program has been extended out to help out many other groups that have NEVER historically experienced racism in the USA but have been given preferential treatment in business/academia soley because of the color of their skin or gender. I find that absurd and very immoral.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

It was INITIALLY put in place to help minorities with a history of discrimination such as African Americans.

However, this program has been extended out to help out many other groups that have NEVER historically experienced racism in the USA but have been given preferential treatment in business/academia soley because of the color of their skin or gender. I find that absurd and very immoral.

I can understand your point and in a perfect world, the best person should get that job/acceptance for their skills and hopefully someday we will get there.

Unfortunately, in today's society the playing field isn't equal and a lot of people who don't have a voice are never heard.

Things like affirmative action, welfare, medicare, even obamacare are not perfect but are attempts to offer something to help people who are not as fortunate. Instead of looking at what makes us different, we should appreciate what we all have in common.

My point in all this is to say that Trump will not help anybody and his actions (negative and pathologic) will speak louder than words. He just used all the anger and hate to get elected and has already taken back some of the key promises he made to his supporters.

 

[sleepallday]

There was a good Washington Post article pointing out that this is meaningless. Because its NOT a popular vote contest. Now obviously its meaningless because that's the law, but it's also meaningless because the contest is structured in such a way that the popular vote is not actually a good estimate of the will of the voters. In our current system people who live in 'safe' states that always vote or one party tend to stay home. A much higher percentage of Democratic votes come from relatively contested states. If the contest was decided by the popular vote it is completely possible that flyover country would have turned out millions more voters, who would have actually been motivated to vote.

I'm not disagreeing that its meaningless. But I would have to question whether the popular vote is a good estimate of the will of the voters or not. Anyways, it doesnt really matter since its the system we have.

 

[sleepallday]

Nothing. Nothing tell us anything about him. Trying to predict Trump is like trying to predict the markets: there is so much information, and so much of it is contradictory, that it cancels itself out. There is literally nothing he could do that wouldn't be clearly supported by some of the 'evidence' about him. His two staff choices so far (a consummate Republican insider and the standard bearer for the alt-right) really don't clear anything up.

I was more so pointing to the fact that Bannon runs a pretty racist "News" site.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Why do we need to bomb them?

Russia seems to be taking care of the problem in Syria pretty aggressively. We need to just stay out.

Again, why should some Sunni islamic guy from the middle east get affirmative action over white rural men?

It seems this "equality" you preach is about giving literally everyone in the world, regardless of circumstance, preference in academia/business over White males. Sounds real "equal" huh?

Racist or not, you have a LOT of hate in you and you have a persecution complex. That kind of hate and fear is what makes it ok in your mind to spy on Americans because of their religion, distrust and "stop n frisk" people because they're black, get Mexicans out of your country because while they've got no license or social security number they might "take your job", and keep desperate people out because everyone in America apparently is getting killed by Syrian refugees. And in your eyes non-whites have it so good that we need to even the playing field back up.

I'm angry, and I might even have some hate and fears. But mine aren't pathological. I don't want to limit or apply unequally anyone's civil/human rights. And I don't lose the ability to empathize. Yes I'm angry about the voters in the "heartland", but I don't want to take ANYTHING from them. Even the racist ones ABSOLUTELY have a right to be vocally hateful, and non-racists have a right to call them ignorant.

You won't get this, because I think your mind is poisoned. You'll just get more angry. I'm just another person persecuting you for your "common sense" beliefs.

But the focus you place on ethnicity/religion in deciding what's right and what's not isn't common sense. It's prejudice. And you can put up as many memes as you want with some liberal saying/doing something stupid, or some brown person doing something terrible. That doesn't mean ANYTHING. I never said you had a monopoly on hate.

 

[Planktonmd]

Kind've like when you put on your ISIS garbs to fight the infidels?

Sorry just had to vomit... carry on!

 

[DrCommonSense]

I can understand your point and in a perfect world, the best person should get that job/acceptance for their skills and hopefully someday we will get there.

Unfortunately, in today's society the playing field isn't equal and a lot of people who don't have a voice are never heard.

Things like affirmative action, welfare, medicare, even obamacare are not perfect but are attempts to offer something to help people who are not as fortunate. Instead of looking at what makes us different, we should appreciate what we all have in common.

My point in all this is to say that Trump will not help anybody and his actions will speak louder than words. He just used all the anger and hate to get elected and has already taken back some of the key promises he made.

What makes the wealthy Islamic immigrant whose parents are physicians "less fortunate" than the rural West Virginia White male that lives in a shack?

See thats the fallacy of Affirmative Action. It will give that Islamic guy who is a rich immigrant (or even 2nd or third generation) over a poor White male. How is that "fair"?

Then you wonder why that rural White male votes against that system.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Racist or not, you have a LOT of hate in you and you have a persecution complex. That kind of hate and fear is what makes it ok in your mind to spy on Americans because of their religion, distrust and "stop n frisk" people because they're black, get Mexicans out of your country because while they've got no license or social security number they might "take your job", and keep desperate people out because everyone in America apparently is getting killed by Syrian refugees. And in your eyes non-whites have it so good that we need to even the playing field back up.

I'm angry, and I might even have some hate and fears. But mine aren't pathological. I don't want to limit or apply unequally anyone's civil/human rights. And I don't lose the ability to empathize. Yes I'm angry about the voters in the "heartland", but I don't want to take ANYTHING from them. Even the racist ones ABSOLUTELY have a right to be vocally hateful, and non-racists have a right to call them ignorant.

You won't get this, because I think your mind is poisoned. You'll just get more angry. I'm just another person persecuting you for your "common sense" beliefs.

But the focus you place on ethnicity/religion in deciding what's right and what's not isn't common sense. It's prejudice. And you can put up as many memes as you want with some liberal saying/doing something stupid, or some brown person doing something terrible. That doesn't mean ANYTHING. I never said you had a monopoly on hate.

Coming from liberals who push gender and racial policies that give unfair advantages in academia/business situations I find this argument amusing.

Also, Im happy you diagnosed your liberal beliefs as "non pathological" despite their highly immoral context and unfairness.

The rest of the stuff you write is virtue signaling gibberish written by a likely privileged liberal that probably benefited from affirmative action policies when getting into medical school.

See, when you're a privileged liberal that gets UNFAIR advantages when applying for medical school/law school/business school/govt jobs/etc, its incumbent to call anyone names that challenges the status quo so as to make them back off discussing these highly immoral and dishonest discriminatory policies.

Ergo, there are secondary motives towards your "anger".

 

[DrCommonSense]

Sorry just had to vomit... carry on!

You accused me of being a "KKK" guy without any evidence due to being a White male, so I will accuse you of being an ISIS terrorist for being a Sunni male in the interests of "equality" of insults.

See how that works?

Everyone can call each other names to divert from the conversation and create strawman fallacies.

 

[pgg]

Everyone can call each other names to divert from the conversation and create strawman fallacies.

Only if they want the thread closed.

@Planktonmd please cease and desist also.

 

[Planktonmd]

Only if they want the thread closed.

@Planktonmd please cease and desist also.

I wasn't the only one who pointed out his racism! Why am I the only one who should "cease and desist"?
And is it ok for him to call me a terrorist in your view? Or to classify me as some sort of religious fanatic although everyone knows what I think of religions, all religions?
I think you have become too biased and possibly letting your own political views distort you judgment to the point of being judgmental and offensive.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

What makes the wealthy Islamic immigrant whose parents are physicians "less fortunate" than the rural West Virginia White male that lives in a shack?

See thats the fallacy of Affirmative Action. It will give that Islamic guy who is a rich immigrant (or even 2nd or third generation) over a poor White male. How is that "fair"?

Then you wonder why that rural White male votes against that system.

In general minority races/cultures compared to white Anglo-Saxons, in this country, are of lower socioeconomic status. See specifically Table 16 of the link from the Bureau of labor and Statistics. Affirmative Action attempts to give persons a more equal footing and make race/culture less of a factor in education and pay. Affirmative Action attempts to make inroads to that based on population data, not personal stories, but by affecting individual people. I get the emotional argument against affirmative action but please understand your anecdotes and made up examples don't change the statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-and-ethnicity/2015/home.htm

 

[DrCommonSense]

I wasn't the only one who pointed out his racism! Why am I the only one who should "cease and desist"?
And is it ok for him to call me a terrorist in your view? Or to classify me as some sort of religious fanatic although everyone knows what I think of religions, all religions?
I think you have become too biased and possibly letting your own political views distort you judgment to the point of being judgmental and offensive.

Actually, you were the first to call people "KKK" members without any evidence of this assertion. My ISIS statement was made as an unsubstantiated negative assertion about you based upon your religion/ethnicity/gender.

Ergo, the devolution of discussion into ad hom attacks and strawman arguments.

The moderator is asking for us to avoid using such language for everyone to "cease and desist". Don't see anything wrong with that unless you are unable to have a civilized conversation without name calling.

 

[DrCommonSense]

In general minority races/cultures compared to white Anglo-Saxons, in this country, are of lower socioeconomic status. See specifically Table 16 of the link from the Bureau of labor and Statistics. Affirmative Action attempts to give persons a more equal footing and make race/culture less of a factor in education and pay. Affirmative Action attempts to make inroads to that based on population data, not personal stories, but by affecting individual people. I get the emotional argument against affirmative action but please understand your anecdotes and made up examples don't change the statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-and-ethnicity/2015/home.htm

Actually, there are more White people in poverty than any other race in the USA when looking at total numbers. http://www.nccp.org/media/releases/release_34.html

Your argument has multiple logical fallacies for affirmative action based upon race including:

1) SES argument would be valid if we gave "affirmative action" based on low SES compared to race. Why should we use affirmative action based on racial concerns? Your argument was concerning SES rather than "race".

2) White males are currently underrepresented in medical school classes as a percentage of the population. How long do we continue affirmative action to disadvantage a group that is ALREADY unrepresented as a percentage?

3) White/Asian males who are from the poorer/middle class are at a disadvantage against richer White women/"underrepresented" minorties when it comes to admission to college/med school/etc. Why should an Asian immigrant who is poor be wait listed at a UC system school compared to an upper middle class White woman who had lower MCAT scores?

Remember, Affirmative action's biggest recipients are actually White females. How can one justify giving White females, who are often of higher SES class preference over recent Asian immigrants for instance that live in 2 bedroom homes with 10 people?

My "personal" stories represent the vast majority of the AA cases.

 

[pgg]

I wasn't the only one who pointed out his racism! Why am I the only one who should "cease and desist"?
And is it ok for him to call me a terrorist in your view? Or to classify me as some sort of religious fanatic although everyone knows what I think of religions, all religions?
I think you have become too biased and possibly letting your own political views distort you judgment to the point of being judgmental and offensive.

None of it is OK.

I responded to him and tagged you because the two of you were going at it.

Don't read too much into the tea leaves. I'm trying to keep as light a moderating hand as I can here. I want the thread to stay open.

Calling someone a terrorist sympathizer or a KKK marching racist aren't parts of rational arguments and don't have any place here.

I'm not taking sides. I'm asking everyone to be civil, as I have before both in-thread and via PM to various individuals.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

None of it is OK.

I responded to him and tagged you because the two of you were going at it.

Don't read too much into the tea leaves. I'm trying to keep as light a moderating hand as I can here. I want the thread to stay open.

Calling someone a terrorist sympathizer or a KKK marching racist aren't parts of rational arguments and don't have any place here.

I'm not taking sides. I'm asking everyone to be civil, as I have before both in-thread and via PM ago various individuals.

Thanks in advance.

Dude does have some racial issues I'm very concerned about. Is there a rehab center or something, maybe HR training?

 

[DrCommonSense]

Dude does have some racial issues I'm very concerned about. Is there a rehab center or something, maybe HR training?

Maybe they can send me to a communist gulag to understand that I am an evil oppressor too right?

Privileged liberals gonna privilege. Privileged liberals don't like when people focus on their privilege and decide to name call/call for "reeducation" for the people who question their privilege.

Liberalism 101 folks.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Maybe they can send me to a communist gulag to understand that I am an evil oppressor too right?

Privileged liberals gonna privilege. Privileged liberals don't like when people focus on their privilege and decide to name call/call for "reeducation" for the people who question their privilege.

Liberalism 101 folks.

 

[deleted171991]

Dude does have some racial issues I'm very concerned about. Is there a rehab center or something, maybe HR training?

Yep. Here. Or here. Or here. Or here. Or here. Or here. To list a few. There are tons of really depressing places about barbarians and their victims, all around the world. Plus there is this thing called Wikipedia...

We are still selfish weak people, most of us, unwilling to make personal sacrifices in order to stand up to the evil in the world.

 

[GravelRider]

Calling someone a terrorist sympathizer or a KKK marching racist aren't parts of rational arguments and don't have any place here.

Yup. It's called the ad hominem logical fallacy. The Republicans used it well to discredit Hillary's policy. Frankly, all of our politicians resort to this lazy, anti-intellectual fallacy when debating policies. Politics in America has become nothing but partisan name calling and is why our government has become ineffective.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Yeah us "evil white males" should never question Affirmative Action or anything right?

I could imagine if you tried this phony argument in ANY other countries outside of the West.

Imagine going to India or China and demand them give preferential treatment to recent immigrants from other countries over their own indigenous population due to "Indian or Chinese privilege". They would laugh you out of the country.

This nonsensical argument has worked very well in the West to extort undeserved privilege though. Got to give you credit on that.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Yeah us "evil white males" should never question Affirmative Action or anything right?

I could imagine if you tried this phony argument in ANY other countries outside of the West.

Imagine going to India or China and demand them give preferential treatment to recent immigrants from other countries over their own indigenous population due to "Indian or Chinese privilege". They would laugh you out of the country.

This nonsensical argument has worked very well in the West to extort undeserved privilege though. Got to give you credit on that.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Yep. Here. Or here. Or here.

Once again, how does slavery apply to the recent immigrant from the Middle East/Africa or anywhere else that now gets "Affirmative Action" over the rural White guy or even the indigenous Asian male that have higher MCAT scores but can't get into medical school because of it?

How does Affirmative Action for White females (many who come from upper middle class and upper class families) justify giving them preference over the Asian male who lives in a small apartment with 3 families or the rural White male who was born to a single mom?

Makes sense right?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

It appears somebody is trying hard to get the thread closed down which is probably what needs to happen.

 

[DrCommonSense]

It appears somebody is trying hard to get the thread closed down which is probably what needs to happen.

So questioning affirmative action in a civilized manner without name calling constitutes a reason to shut down a thread?

 

[deleted171991]

Once again, how does slavery apply to the recent immigrant from the Middle East/Africa or anywhere else that now gets "Affirmative Action" over the rural White guy or even the indigenous Asian male that have higher MCAT scores but can't get into medical school because of it?

How does Affirmative Action for White females (many who come from upper middle class and upper class families) justify giving them preference over the Asian male who lives in a small apartment with 3 families or the rural White male who was born to a single mom?

Makes sense right?

It doesn't. Affirmative action is discrimination. There is zero doubt about it. It's like socialism: you cannot give to Billy Bob without taking from George. If there is a winner in the equation, there also must be a loser. The question is whether society benefits from this "no child left behind" mentality and from discrimination of any kind. I would argue it doesn't.

It's nothing more than political prostitution for votes and, while it might fix a problem, it creates others. We should all have equal chances to live a decent life, and we should help those of us who can't, for reasons out of their control.

But accusing people of ISIS sympathies based on religion makes about as much sense as assuming every white person discriminates against colored people. Same for denying/minimizing the past, instead of trying to avoid repeating its mistakes.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

So questioning affirmative action in a civilized manner without name calling constitutes a reason to shut down a thread?

Lowering taxes for the wealthy is "discrimination." Elderly folks getting discounts is "discrimination." I don't see you waving your pitch fork at them.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Lowering taxes for the wealthy is "discrimination." Elderly folks getting discounts is "discrimination." I don't see you waving your pitch fork at them.

What?

I am strongly against Billionaires paying a low tax rate. I believe they should be taxed far more heavily.

However, the upper middle class has the highest tax rate by far (people from 100K-500K for instance) of any group. The lower two tax brackets mostly get federal tax rebates, ergo, they GET money from the govt when they file their returns.

Dunno about elderly getting "discounts" in a free market situation having anything to do with Affirmative Action. Are you just trying to throw around random strawman arguments since you can't honestly argue for Affirmative Action?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

What?

I am strongly against Billionaires paying a low tax rate. I believe they should be taxed far more heavily.

However, the upper middle class has the highest tax rate by far (people from 100K-500K for instance) of any group. The lower two tax brackets mostly get federal tax rebates, ergo, they GET money from the govt when they file their returns.

Dunno about elderly getting "discounts" in a free market situation having anything to do with Affirmative Action. Are you just trying to throw around random strawman arguments since you can't honestly argue for Affirmative Action?

Why should younger Americans pay more for stuff? That's not "fair" is it?

 

[DrCommonSense]

Why should younger Americans pay more for stuff? That's not "fair" is it?

If its done in a "free market" by independent companies, I have no problem with it. If younger people are upset about the discount, they could boycott the company, which would lead to a significant change in policy or the company goes out of business. There are checks and balances in the free market system.

If its done by a govt funded institution (like med schools that take student loans from fed govt to survive), then I would have a BIG problem with it. There are ZERO checks and balances in this system because money comes in from the Fed GOVT regardless of decision making.

Understand the difference?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

If its done in a "free market" by independent companies, I have no problem with it. If younger people are upset about the discount, they could boycott the company, which would lead to a significant change in policy or the company goes out of business. There are checks and balances in the free market system.

If its done by a govt funded institution (like med schools that take student loans from fed govt to survive), then I would have a BIG problem with it. There are ZERO checks and balances in this system because money comes in from the Fed GOVT regardless of decision making.

Understand the difference?

I see, so the Federal Govt is an independent entity without any input from lawmakers representing the voters.

They just willy nilly make up laws to suppress white people. I got it now, thanks!

 

[GravelRider]

What?

I am strongly against Billionaires paying a low tax rate. I believe they should be taxed far more heavily.

However, the upper middle class has the highest tax rate by far (people from 100K-500K for instance) of any group. The lower two tax brackets mostly get federal tax rebates, ergo, they GET money from the govt when they file their returns.

Dunno about elderly getting "discounts" in a free market situation having anything to do with Affirmative Action. Are you just trying to throw around random strawman arguments since you can't honestly argue for Affirmative Action?

Affirmative action was created to atone for centuries of slavery that did, in fact, put many of today's blacks at a disadvantage. You can agree that if you are born into wealth, you are better off than if you are born into poverty. That's the basis behind affirmative action. I think it's too simple of a solution to a complex problem, and thus doesn't work. I don't support affirmative action. However, I think the effect of affirmative action is way overblown. Take a walk in some urban areas with high minority populations. These people are not living the good life.

You can also argue that affirmative action is like the electoral college...both are stupid systems, but you know the rules ahead of time so you can't complain.

 

[pgg]

Lowering taxes for the wealthy is "discrimination."

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. In case you're not ...

Which is more discriminatory vs wealthy people?

Taxing their income at a higher % so they pay more than lower earners (the progressive system we have now)?

Taxing them at the same % so they pay more than lower earners, because they earn more?

A VAT or federal sales tax on consumption so they pay more than lower earners because they buy more stuff?

Having an estate tax so they pay more than lower earners because they have more stuff when they die?

Taxing everyone at the same flat $ amount so everyone pays the same size tax bill?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. In case you're not ...

Which is more discriminatory vs wealthy people?

Taxing their income at a higher % so they pay more than lower earners (the progressive system we have now)?

Taxing them at the same % so they pay more than lower earners, because they earn more?

A VAT or federal sales tax on consumption so they pay more than lower earners because they buy more stuff?

Having an estate tax so they pay more than lower earners because they have more stuff when they die?

Taxing everyone at the same flat $ amount so everyone pays the same size tax bill?

I'm fine with either option numbers 1 or 2. I have and willing to pay more taxes to support the govt.

What they do with that money, I guess I'll just have to have faith in the system.

 

[GravelRider]

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. In case you're not ...

Which is more discriminatory vs wealthy people?

Taxing their income at a higher % so they pay more than lower earners (the progressive system we have now)?

Taxing them at the same % so they pay more than lower earners, because they earn more?

A VAT or federal sales tax on consumption so they pay more than lower earners because they buy more stuff?

Having an estate tax so they pay more than lower earners because they have more stuff when they die?

Taxing everyone at the same flat $ amount so everyone pays the same size tax bill?

I'm not sure what you are advocating here (if anything), but a flat tax doesn't work. Let's say we make everyone pay a 20% tax rate. That 20% affects the person making 50k a year a lot more than the person making $1 million a year even though it feels more "fair."

I think a VAT or consumption tax would be a good idea, but that would be detrimental to our consumer-based economy.

No one likes taxes, but they are not discriminatory. They are necessary for us to function as a country. I think a good place to start would be closing loopholes that allow the wealthy to hide money and pay less taxes and creating stiff penalties for corporations or people who are caught.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Affirmative action was created to atone for centuries of slavery that did, in fact, put many of today's blacks at a disadvantage. You can agree that if you are born into wealth, you are better off than if you are born into poverty. That's the basis behind affirmative action. I think it's too simple of a solution to a complex problem, and thus doesn't work. I don't support affirmative action. However, I think the effect of affirmative action is way overblown. Take a walk in some urban areas with high minority populations. These people are not living the good life.

You can also argue that affirmative action is like the electoral college...both are stupid systems, but you know the rules ahead of time so you can't complain.

Except Affirmative Action has been extended to MANY groups outside of African Americans whose family came here as slaves including: Arabs, some Indians, White women, Pacific Islanders, all types of Latinos, etc.

The only ones essentially not covered under this policy are Asian and White males.

How do you argue for giving everyone preference outside of Asian and White males?

Also, White women get far more affirmative action spots than African American males. Even Africans from Africa that came here in the last 20 years get more Affirmative Action than African Americans who were here as slaves.

If you just made Affirmative Action for African Americans whose families came as slaves as 10% or so of the class, I would have no problem with it.

But how did everyone else get to pigg back on this oppression racket?

 

[DrCommonSense]

I see, so the Federal Govt is an independent entity without any input from lawmakers representing the voters.

They just willy nilly make up laws to suppress white people. I got it now, thanks!

Actually, voters in California voted AGAINST affirmative action by an overwhelming majority.

Its just that the liberals who run these institutions really don't give a darn what the voters think.

 

[GravelRider]

Except Affirmative Action has been extended to MANY groups outside of African Americans whose family came here as slaves including: Arabs, some Indians, White women, Pacific Islanders, all types of Latinos, etc.

The only ones essentially not covered under this policy are Asian and White males.

How do you argue for giving everyone preference outside of Asian and White males?

Also, White women get far more affirmative action spots than African American males. Even Africans from Africa that came here in the last 20 years get more Affirmative Action than African Americans who were here as slaves.

If you just made Affirmative Action for African Americans whose families came as slaves as 10% or so of the class, I would have no problem with it.

But how did everyone else get to pigg back on this oppression racket?

I would hardly say white males are oppressed.

If you read my whole post instead of just the part you wanted to read, you would have noticed that I said I do not support affirmative action.

 

[DrCommonSense]

I would hardly say white males are oppressed.

If you read my whole post instead of just the part you wanted to read, you would have noticed that I said I do not support affirmative action.

I would argue the rural/lower middle class white male that went to public schools that were dysfunctional are far more "oppressed" than the Arabic immigrant that comes from wealth and was sent to private schools.

Affirmative Action will give that Arabic guy preference over that White guy, despite circumstances.

 

[deleted171991]

I'm not sure what you are advocating here (if anything), but a flat tax doesn't work. Let's say we make everyone pay a 20% tax rate. That 20% affects the person making 50k a year a lot more than the person making $1 million a year even though it feels more "fair."

I think a VAT or consumption tax would be a good idea, but that would be detrimental to our consumer-based economy.

No one likes taxes, but they are not discriminatory. They are necessary for us to function as a country. I think a good place to start would be closing loopholes that allow the wealthy to hide money and pay less taxes and creating stiff penalties for corporations or people who are caught.

It actually does, with an appropriate standard deduction (or two tax tiers) and with a VAT (or national sales tax). Having just 47% of the population pay taxes is not OK, and leads to the divided nation we have today.

We just don't like flat taxes in this country, because there is this populist current about making the rich pay their "fair" share, and we don't like VAT because it could decrease consumption (it doesn't). Plus all of us like our personal "pork" itemized deductions, which would obviously go away.

 

[GravelRider]

It actually does, with an appropriate standard deduction (or two tax tiers) and with a VAT (or national sales tax). Just look at Ireland (and other countries).

We just don't like flat taxes in this country, because there is this populist current about making the rich pay their "fair" share, and we don't like VAT because it could decrease consumption (it doesn't). Plus all of us like our personal "pork" itemized deductions, which would obviously go away.

Ireland has a progressive tax rate...2 brackets. Income up to a certain amount is taxed at 20% (standard rate) and anything beyond is 40% (higher). This is all according to Wikipedia, of course.

 

[deleted171991]

Ireland has a progressive tax rate...2 brackets. Income up to a certain amount is taxed at 20% (standard rate) and anything beyond is 40% (higher). This is all according to Wikipedia, of course.

It's still a much flatter/fairer system than ours. And I bet they don't have all our itemized deductions (possibly not even a standard one). Actually, it's pretty unusual for people to have to file income tax returns in Europe (unless claiming overtaxation from multiple jobs), it's all that simplified.

 

[GravelRider]

It's still a much flatter/fairer system than ours. And I bet they don't have all our itemized deductions. Actually, it's pretty unusual for people to have to file income tax returns in Europe, it's all that simplified.

Oh, I'm all for simplifying the tax code, but a pure flat tax is not fair.

 

[deleted171991]

Oh, I'm all for simplifying the tax code, but a pure flat tax is not fair.

It is, if all income is taxed similarly, no special taxes for dividends or interest, no itemized deductions or other special treatment for special interests etc.

Beyond a big standard deduction (to protect the poor), the fairest tax is a flat tax. The current system penalizes two high earner-families, among others. Why should one be punished for having worked so hard for decades (K-12 to fellowship) to become a doctor, or for working 65-70 hours/week as needed by one's patients?

We should end all this "affirmative action". It's just government-sponsored robbery, for electoral purposes. It just creates resentment, and divides us even more. When only 47% of the country pays taxes, and the top 1% pays more than the bottom 90%, I don't think we can ask more of the former.

 

[GravelRider]

It is, if all income is taxed similarly, no special taxes for dividends or interest, no itemized deductions or other special treatment for special interests etc.

Beyond a big standard deduction (to protect the poor), the fairest tax is a flat tax. The current system penalizes two high earner-families, among others. Why should I be punished for having worked so hard for decades (K-12 to fellowship) to become a doctor, or for working 65-70 hours/week as needed by my patients? Why should other people be punished for being legally rich?

I suppose it is "fair" in the literal and mathematical sense. However, it's true "fairness" depends on your interpretation of the meaning of justice or more specifically, distributive justice.

 

[deleted171991]

I suppose it is "fair" in the literal and mathematical sense. However, it's true "fairness" depends on your interpretation of the meaning of justice or more specifically, distributive justice.

Also called socialism or, in its more extreme form, communism. There is a reason why neither of those systems has been really successful in human history, and why the United States did historically so well while it ignored them.

 

[pgg]

I'm not sure what you are advocating here (if anything), but a flat tax doesn't work. Let's say we make everyone pay a 20% tax rate. That 20% affects the person making 50k a year a lot more than the person making $1 million a year even though it feels more "fair."

I wasn't advocating anything, just wondering whether the line about "discrimination" in the context of our progressive tax system was self-aware-tongue-in-cheek or oblivious-to-the-irony or a more subtle comment that yes progressive taxation is discrimination but the societal benefits are worth that injustice.

I favor progressive taxation, for the reasons you describe. I also favor an estate tax, which is one way to curb the growth of the multigenerational aristocracy we've built here after working so hard to say FU to British royalty and then robber barons a while back. Neither are really "fair" to the ultra wealthy.