Victim of malignant PD, dismissed yet reinstated.

[LPKR2016]

I have read so many upsetting and disappointing stories on these forums when I was dismissed from a residency program not too long ago, that made me hopeless. So here is a success story to inspire those of you out there that are trying to get back on track with residency.

Quick story: I am an FMG, with decent board scores. I matched into a rather competitive University IM program in the northeast. I passed my first year ok, but in my second year went under the radar for a bunch of isolated stupid reasons some of which ticked off the leadership. They thought I was arrogant and cocky, but even when I fixed it, it wasn’t enough for them. Many people thought I was a good resident and did my job well, but unfortunately because of an extremely malignant and vicious APD & PD who were both on my case, I kept getting cornered throughout the year for stupid reasons, and they eventually had enough paperwork to dismiss me from the program, not because I did anything egregious but simply because they did not like me.

After 1 or 2 days of grief, shock, and anguish, next thing I did was hire an attorney. If you are in this situation and decide to go forward with a lawyer, do your research and don’t hastily sign a contract. You need to be very careful in this step, because there are a lot of dirty and untrustworthy lawyers out there who will try to steal your money, during an extremely vulnerable time you are facing. Anyhow this lawyer demanded a huge sum of money upfront, making me feel helpless and convincing me that he will be my career savior. I ended up agreeing to it. He sat down with me and asked all the details, ended up writing like a 12 page appeal statement, trying to negotiate a settlement that would prevent us from going to hearing. The truth of the matter is the whole GME hearing is a big bag of bologna. It’s a "kangaroo court" with the same faculty members and committee members who decided to burn you in the first place. Even if you are innocent, and show remorse, apologize, kiss their ass, these appellate members will never vote against their own colleagues and burn bridges for your sake, because you’re nothing to them. It’s not a real courtroom, no jury to hear the facts and make a decision, in fact they do not even allow attorneys to be present at the hearing, and nothing gets transcribed. So I wasn’t crazy about going into the hearing from the first place.

Anyway this lawyer ended up getting me a lousy settlement, where they turned the dismissal into a resignation, did not give me credit for my second year, and no letter of good standing either. I was pretty disappointed, basically lost all this money, did not go into a hearing, and what am I left with, a resignation and no job? So at this point, I tried to network with as many people as possible. First thing, I contacted 4-5 attendings at my program that I had great rapport with to help me with a letter of recommendation. They were all so surprised at the news and all agreed to help me in any way. Next I started contacting 100s of programs, and getting in contact with as many people as possible. From experience I can say, that cold calling does not work for the most part, but if you show up in person to programs, or email PD’s directly, they are more acknowledging. So I came to an understanding that when you are in a sticky situation such as this, you need somebody to vouch for you to literally help pull you out of the ditch. I landed a clinical research volunteer job at a University Program, and became close with the PD of the program there who was very helpful. He made some phone calls for me, and tried to help me. I also contacted family friends, colleagues in faculty positions, whoever I can get in touch with to try to help get my foot in the door.

A challenging part of my situation was the fact that I already completed roughly 2 years of residency, so (1) it is hard to find an advanced position vacancy in general because someone has to either drop out, get fired, or an open position needs to open up and (2) Many programs will be reluctant in restarting you as a PGY-1 because of budgeting issues from Medicare and the fact that you already passed your PGY-1.

I ended up applying to literally every IM and FM program in the country, as well as open PGY-2 positions. I ended up getting about 12 interviews in all, (mostly PGY-1’s) however on some of the interviews I went on, they did mention the budgeting issue and all but some of them did not mind at all. I ended up getting an invitation to a program because of an APD that I met on my interview trail several years ago that I connected with very much, who happened to be the same ethnic background as me. I called this individual several months before, and explained him my situation and he said he would try to help me. Initially he discussed it with the committee and they put my file on the side. But then several months later, I contacted him again, and he told me that I called at a good time, because they are expanding the program by 4-5 positions. I went on the interview and met the whole staff and connected with them, and they really liked me. They even contacted my previous PD who kept his end of the bargain and did not sabotage me, and in fact helped me get the spot. They then offered me an advanced position at their program.

So moral of the story is: You cannot give up, you need to move forward, be persistent and optimistic. I know it really sucks getting terminated, dismissed, whatever, but it happens. You worked too hard to get to this point, to let some arrogant and narcissist PD ruin your life and career. So keep pushing forward, connect and network with as many people in the medical field as you can, and try to establish a strong connection. People will sympathize with you and try to help you if they can, trust me. And eventually things will fall into place.
Good Luck!

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[bashwell]

I have read so many upsetting and disappointing stories on these forums when I was dismissed from a residency program not too long ago, that made me hopeless. So here is a success story to inspire those of you out there that are trying to get back on track with residency.

Quick story: I am an FMG, with decent board scores. I matched into a rather competitive University IM program in the northeast. I passed my first year ok, but in my second year went under the radar for a bunch of isolated stupid reasons some of which ticked off the leadership. They thought I was arrogant and cocky, but even when I fixed it, it wasn’t enough for them. Many people thought I was a good resident and did my job well, but unfortunately because of an extremely malignant and vicious APD & PD who were both on my case, I kept getting cornered throughout the year for stupid reasons, and they eventually had enough paperwork to dismiss me from the program, not because I did anything egregious but simply because they did not like me.

After 1 or 2 days of grief, shock, and anguish, next thing I did was hire an attorney. If you are in this situation and decide to go forward with a lawyer, do your research and don’t hastily sign a contract. You need to be very careful in this step, because there are a lot of dirty and untrustworthy lawyers out there who will try to steal your money, during an extremely vulnerable time you are facing. Anyhow this lawyer demanded a huge sum of money upfront, making me feel helpless and convincing me that he will be my career savior. I ended up agreeing to it. He sat down with me and asked all the details, ended up writing like a 12 page appeal statement, trying to negotiate a settlement that would prevent us from going to hearing. The truth of the matter is the whole GME hearing is a big bag of bologna. It’s a "kangaroo court" with the same faculty members and committee members who decided to burn you in the first place. Even if you are innocent, and show remorse, apologize, kiss their ass, these appellate members will never vote against their own colleagues and burn bridges for your sake, because you’re nothing to them. It’s not a real courtroom, no jury to hear the facts and make a decision, in fact they do not even allow attorneys to be present at the hearing, and nothing gets transcribed. So I wasn’t crazy about going into the hearing from the first place.

Anyway this lawyer ended up getting me a lousy settlement, where they turned the dismissal into a resignation, did not give me credit for my second year, and no letter of good standing either. I was pretty disappointed, basically lost all this money, did not go into a hearing, and what am I left with, a resignation and no job? So at this point, I tried to network with as many people as possible. First thing, I contacted 4-5 attendings at my program that I had great rapport with to help me with a letter of recommendation. They were all so surprised at the news and all agreed to help me in any way. Next I started contacting 100s of programs, and getting in contact with as many people as possible. From experience I can say, that cold calling does not work for the most part, but if you show up in person to programs, or email PD’s directly, they are more acknowledging. So I came to an understanding that when you are in a sticky situation such as this, you need somebody to vouch for you to literally help pull you out of the ditch. I landed a clinical research volunteer job at a University Program, and became close with the PD of the program there who was very helpful. He made some phone calls for me, and tried to help me. I also contacted family friends, colleagues in faculty positions, whoever I can get in touch with to try to help get my foot in the door.

A challenging part of my situation was the fact that I already completed roughly 2 years of residency, so (1) it is hard to find an advanced position vacancy in general because someone has to either drop out, get fired, or an open position needs to open up and (2) Many programs will be reluctant in restarting you as a PGY-1 because of budgeting issues from Medicare and the fact that you already passed your PGY-1.

I ended up applying to literally every IM and FM program in the country, as well as open PGY-2 positions. I ended up getting about 12 interviews in all, (mostly PGY-1’s) however on some of the interviews I went on, they did mention the budgeting issue and all but some of them did not mind at all. I ended up getting an invitation to a program because of an APD that I met on my interview trail several years ago that I connected with very much, who happened to be the same ethnic background as me. I called this individual several months before, and explained him my situation and he said he would try to help me. Initially he discussed it with the committee and they put my file on the side. But then several months later, I contacted him again, and he told me that I called at a good time, because they are expanding the program by 4-5 positions. I went on the interview and met the whole staff and connected with them, and they really liked me. They even contacted my previous PD who kept his end of the bargain and did not sabotage me, and in fact helped me get the spot. They then offered me an advanced position at their program.

So moral of the story is: You cannot give up, you need to move forward, be persistent and optimistic. I know it really sucks getting terminated, dismissed, whatever, but it happens. You worked too hard to get to this point, to let some arrogant and narcissist PD ruin your life and career. So keep pushing forward, connect and network with as many people in the medical field as you can, and try to establish a strong connection. People will sympathize with you and try to help you if they can, trust me. And eventually things will fall into place.
Good Luck!

That wasn't what I'd call a "quick story," but glad it worked out for you!

 

[Psai]

Very vague and not really a "success" story.

 

[witzelsucht]

Very vague and not really a "success" story.

he's two years out from a job making 200k with a wide array of traditional and non-traditional schedules, in almost any geography he wants, best job security in the country. succe$$.

 

[Smurfette]

he's two years out from a job making 200k with a wide array of traditional and non-traditional schedules, in almost any geography he wants, best job security in the country. succe$$.

Actually, no. He posted last fall about currently looking for a new program after being dismissed.
He was applying for this match cycle. So he either has found a spot outside the match and just signed a contract, or was promised a spot but is still awaiting the match. He hasn't finished residency yet and certainly is not making $200K, nor having flexible schedule choices.

Hopefully everything works out and he finds success at his new program.

 

[Goro]

More like winning the Lotto story.

Very vague and not really a "success" story.

 

[LPKR2016]

Yes Smurfette, I ended up applying for the match as a backup plan, went on like 10 interviews, but the offer I got was out of the match since its an advanced position. So thankfully I am opting out of the match and don't have to do the first year over again.

And Goro, winning the lotto is obv a lot harder. I definitely got lucky and am grateful for that, however I was unfairly and unjustifiably dismissed and I think my PD's eventually realized that the punishment did not fit the crime for a handful of minor issues throughout the year so they cooperated and helped... What do you guys think? Also any advice for my new program?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think the OP's story is inspiring. Obviously, the primary plan is not to get fired from your residency at all. But the OP demonstrates that it's possible to get back into a program. The key is being professional, maintaining contacts with people who will support you, and grit. Will it work for everyone? Of course not. But proves it's worth trying.

My advice for the OP: I know you think you were unjustly terminated for minor issues. But it's possible that the issues were larger than that, and "real". Hence, I'd move forward assuming there was some element of truth to problems in your prior program, and you should try to address them. I know you mentioned that some of the problems were due to stresses outside of work which have now resolved, but stresses tend to recur (perhaps in a different form). Ignoring problems that happened before may cause them to happen again, and the one thing you can't do is lose this spot.

 

[LPKR2016]

I think the OP's story is inspiring. Obviously, the primary plan is not to get fired from your residency at all. But the OP demonstrates that it's possible to get back into a program. The key is being professional, maintaining contacts with people who will support you, and grit. Will it work for everyone? Of course not. But proves it's worth trying.

My advice for the OP: I know you think you were unjustly terminated for minor issues. But it's possible that the issues were larger than that, and "real". Hence, I'd move forward assuming there was some element of truth to problems in your prior program, and you should try to address them. I know you mentioned that some of the problems were due to stresses outside of work which have now resolved, but stresses tend to recur (perhaps in a different form). Ignoring problems that happened before may cause them to happen again, and the one thing you can't do is lose this spot.

Yes you are absolutely right, and thank you for that advice. I will definitely utilize your advice to ensure my success in the future peogram.

 

[Dral]

So many people around here are so damn nit-picky and negative (not op)...why I rarely visit this place anymore.

OP: Hopefully if you did have issues you worked them out. Best of luck at your new residency program and I am happy to hear you have another chance!

 

[Rodent82]

So many people around here are so damn nit-picky and negative (not op)...why I rarely visit this place anymore?

Agreed. I wish I'd seen some positivity like this when I was having problems. OP, thank you for posting this.

I was dismissed from a specialty residency. Of course I feel that it's unfair, especially when I read about what people talk about they get away with. I had a rocky start, was working VERY hard on improving, asked for feedback/suggestions and was told that I was doing better and improving right up until I got the axe. Literally, that very day. I was not perfect, but when I think about what some folks at my PGY1 facility got away with without being in trouble it shows how unevenly stuff gets applied.

Getting out of that hole seems so insurmountable, since it isn't just one hole but more a minefield. And it's not helped that you're being judged by people who have never had problems with the system. So of course they think it works great, because it works great for them so they can't see how it doesn't work for everyone.

So right now, as I'm navigating those hurdles (I got a job as a GP, now jumping through getting my license) I needed this badly.

Again, thank you.

 

[LPKR2016]

Agreed. I wish I'd seen some positivity like this when I was having problems. OP, thank you for posting this.

I was dismissed from a specialty residency. Of course I feel that it's unfair, especially when I read about what people talk about they get away with. I had a rocky start, was working VERY hard on improving, asked for feedback/suggestions and was told that I was doing better and improving right up until I got the axe. Literally, that very day. I was not perfect, but when I think about what some folks at my PGY1 facility got away with without being in trouble it shows how unevenly stuff gets applied.

Getting out of that hole seems so insurmountable, since it isn't just one hole but more a minefield. And it's not helped that you're being judged by people who have never had problems with the system. So of course they think it works great, because it works great for them so they can't see how it doesn't work for everyone.

So right now, as I'm navigating those hurdles (I got a job as a GP, now jumping through getting my license) I needed this badly.

Again, thank you.

You're welcome, and I completely sympathize with you, as I was in your shoes. In a large program, the leadership is so inefficient at providing adequate oversight and discipline. They target a handful of people that unfortunately went under the radar for some reason, expecting them to then be flawless residents and watch their every move, so they can catch them. Whereas, the rest 95% or so of residents get away with the most irresponsible and unprofessional behavior.

There was literally a resident in my program who showed up an hour late to the MICU, where he totally neglected an unstable patient who deteriorated, and he got nothing more than a slap on the wrist by the chief residents. There was a resident who was the meanest and nastiest person, literally would curse out her interns making them cry...she ended up getting a cardiology fellowship at the program. With me, they accused and cornered me for things far far more benign, and always penalized me with the worst potential punishment. The whole system is just so corrupt and unfair, I wish there was something that could be done about it....sigh.

 

[Lessisless]

I can tell you from professional experience that this type of behavior by malignant PD's is far more commonplace than one would think. What's more, by the time you are actually singled out as having some vague deficiency, usually relating to one of the 6 core competencies, the decision to place you under review has been long in the works. If a program director truly cares about a resident, he or she would try to do all of the correction of perceived deficiencies off the record and in a humane way. Placing someone under formal review is simple a way to start a paper trail should the plan be the termination/resignation of the resident all along. It's a matter of legally protecting the program and the hospital. Sadly, during these periods of review, the resident will turn to the program director (s) for guidance, the same person who has taken adverse action against the resident to begin with.

Programs all have favorites. It's the way of life, and its absolutely true that certain residents seem to get away with murder, if you will, when others are scrutinized for the most marginal of things. There are a variety of reasons this can happen (for example, the resident isn't doing enough research to the satisfaction of the program, the resident looks and talks a certain way, the resident parked in the wrong parking spot (which pissed off a staff member), etc. Unfortunately, the power is always in the program director's hands when it involves academic stuff (like the 6 core competencies). On these points, courts generally defer to the program and program directors know they have a lot of wiggle room.

If you find yourself feeling like things are off, for whatever reason, talk to an attorney and simply make them aware of the issues you are having. Do this early on, before you are put under formal review if this happens to apply to your situation. It doesn't have to be official and there doesn't have to be a letter of representation formally provided to the program. You always want to keep your cards to yourself. Crucially, you need to be keeping a paper trail and documentation of anything that you think can be used against you, and anything that you think can be used in your favor. And you want someone overlooking things (helping you cross your T's and dotting your I's) for you should you end up needing to pull the trigger on legal counsel.

There is one thing programs dislike more than anything else (including a resident they have targeted), and that is exposure and bad publicity. Use the element of surprise to your advantage. There is nothing wrong with planning early while doing everything you can to be the best resident you can be. The end point is to be a good, caring and compassionate doctor.

Keep a paper trail of everything. Document everything. Make audio recordings (many states are one person consent states and this is perfectly legal and admissible in court and in internal appeals) to catch folks contradicting themselves, etc. Ask for evaluations even if you know they will be "bad" evaluations so that you force those around you to show their true colors. Try to remove the element of vagueness from the process keeping in mind that the less clearly defined a "Deficiency" is the easier it is for a program director to claim that you have it (and that you deny having it in the first place).

These are things residents typically don't think of while under review, which is why I go back to the main point here: consult an attorney early on and make sure they guide you going forward. The early bird really does get the worm...

 

[Crayola227]

I can tell you from professional experience that this type of behavior by malignant PD's is far more commonplace than one would think. What's more, by the time you are actually singled out as having some vague deficiency, usually relating to one of the 6 core competencies, the decision to place you under review has been long in the works. If a program director truly cares about a resident, he or she would try to do all of the correction of perceived deficiencies off the record and in a humane way. Placing someone under formal review is simple a way to start a paper trail should the plan be the termination/resignation of the resident all along. It's a matter of legally protecting the program and the hospital. Sadly, during these periods of review, the resident will turn to the program director (s) for guidance, the same person who has taken adverse action against the resident to begin with.

Programs all have favorites. It's the way of life, and its absolutely true that certain residents seem to get away with murder, if you will, when others are scrutinized for the most marginal of things. There are a variety of reasons this can happen (for example, the resident isn't doing enough research to the satisfaction of the program, the resident looks and talks a certain way, the resident parked in the wrong parking spot (which pissed off a staff member), etc. Unfortunately, the power is always in the program director's hands when it involves academic stuff (like the 6 core competencies). On these points, courts generally defer to the program and program directors know they have a lot of wiggle room.

If you find yourself feeling like things are off, for whatever reason, talk to an attorney and simply make them aware of the issues you are having. Do this early on, before you are put under formal review if this happens to apply to your situation. It doesn't have to be official and there doesn't have to be a letter of representation formally provided to the program. You always want to keep your cards to yourself. Crucially, you need to be keeping a paper trail and documentation of anything that you think can be used against you, and anything that you think can be used in your favor. And you want someone overlooking things (helping you cross your T's and dotting your I's) for you should you end up needing to pull the trigger on legal counsel.

There is one thing programs dislike more than anything else (including a resident they have targeted), and that is exposure and bad publicity. Use the element of surprise to your advantage. There is nothing wrong with planning early while doing everything you can to be the best resident you can be. The end point is to be a good, caring and compassionate doctor.

Keep a paper trail of everything. Document everything. Make audio recordings (many states are one person consent states and this is perfectly legal and admissible in court and in internal appeals) to catch folks contradicting themselves, etc. Ask for evaluations even if you know they will be "bad" evaluations so that you force those around you to show their true colors. Try to remove the element of vagueness from the process keeping in mind that the less clearly defined a "Deficiency" is the easier it is for a program director to claim that you have it (and that you deny having it in the first place).

These are things residents typically don't think of while under review, which is why I go back to the main point here: consult an attorney early on and make sure they guide you going forward. The early bird really does get the worm...

it is buried but there is good advice in some of these threads on how and what to document and other steps to take to protect yourself legally,

and if worse comes to worse, how to have the most graceful exit from a program

before people say you can't record convos secretly, etc etc, c'mon now, nothing prevents you from collecting evidence, running it by your attorney, and then being told it's of no use. Better to have and discard any recordings/documentation that aren't needed or able to be used, than to kick yourself for not having it if you could have. Don't tell anyone you are recording anything, though. You need to be discreet in this secret CYA you're running.

when you have any sit down situation for "feedback" or whatever, it's OK to just take out your clipboard and paper to take notes (making it appear that you are "engaged" "I just want to be clear and able to review what I need to do to improve," etc etc but not necessarily for documentation purposes), keep these and sign and date them like you do your work notes.

Better yet, is if you are able to ask the program to give you written summaries of these meetings, just to "help" you, beware that typically anything they put to paper will be necessarily be negative, likely moreso than the verbal stuff was. However, you're not really making things worse for yourself by asking for this. It just prevents then from changing the story or making it even worse, if they have more motivation to do so later. In addition to this, as I said, at the time or immediately after write up your own summary of events, the more direct verbal quotes you can write at the time or recall that particular day, the better. (an attorney directly said this to my face).

Whether good or bad, document it all! When making your case you don't have to present the negatives unless it helps to do so (ie to show that what you were told to improve on was not as dire as they are now claiming). Even the informal feedback from seniors and attendings you can do this.

Any written documentation you create, I would either give immediately to my attorney to see what should be done with it to time stamp it, or if I was working on my own I would get these things notarized for the date on a weekly basis.

the point is you don't want them to be the only ones creating a legal and dated paper trail of just their side of the story

you want your own side of what happened just as clearly documented and dated, creating your own secret dossier, preferably guided by an attorney

doing this doesn't always save your job, however, it can sometimes put limits on how hard the program can dick you
-for example, it could keep them from reporting certain things to ACGME which could follow you to another program
-keep them from certain interactions with the medical board, and those things can follow you for the life of your career
-keep them from saying certain things about you to other programs
-keep them from certain actions within any larger medical organization they may be a part of, or future employment opportunities or credentialing/privileges within their system
-get you a neutral to positive letter of recommendation from the PD
-get you letters from faculty that you know support you
-negotiate credit given for rotations you have done, or procedures performed
-negotiate disability pay (if that was a factor) or severance, other benefits like insurance
-or motivate the program to help you transition to another

having an attorney secretly guide you doesn't have to antagonize the program, and can help poise you to obtain the above things
even at the point that you must let them know you have an attorney involved, if your ducks are in a row and you know what you want and are in a good position to negotiate for, again, it doesn't have to be a hassle for them. HR and the hospital legal risk management team come to the party and the attorneys can easily sort things out.

the kiss of death is if you are terminated, once this happens doing any of the above goes out the window. so you want an attorney helping you the minute you're in hot water but still an employee.

I would do all of the above with respect to documenting good/bad feedback and quotes from day 1 of residency, and already have an idea of a good employment law or ADA attorney in mind depending on what your situation may be

you may end up with a stack of papers and a phone number you don't need, but I would also do the above for any job at this point

the ADA and other employment law re: discrimination or basic employee rights, etc etc do not provide nearly the amount of protection people think it will

employers can do whatever they want, and I don't suggest that this litigiousness will prevent harm, but it can do you a lot more good than bad while making a graceful exit

When you have documentation and an attorney, you can be surprised at how many nice reasonable things you can ask for and get quite easily, greatly easing your passage. Employers actually don't mind this as much as you think, as the person said above, employers like it when people go quietly with a happy attorney on each side and a tidy package and confidentiality statement behind you. The t's and i's are more tidy than if they terminate you. When you strike these deals the relationship is permanently over on both sides. They know you can't come back to sue them after this bon voyage.

Coming round to the thread, the above steps of good documentation and an attorney could possibly help you keep your job.

 

[Crayola227]

the thread title is misleading because this dismissed resident was not technically reinstated, that implies that they were reinstated from where they were dismissed

rather, they were dismissed but were able to be instated at another program

 

[LPKR2016]

it is buried but there is good advice in some of these threads on how and what to document and other steps to take to protect yourself legally,

and if worse comes to worse, how to have the most graceful exit from a program

before people say you can't record convos secretly, etc etc, c'mon now, nothing prevents you from collecting evidence, running it by your attorney, and then being told it's of no use. Better to have and discard any recordings/documentation that aren't needed or able to be used, than to kick yourself for not having it if you could have. Don't tell anyone you are recording anything, though. You need to be discreet in this secret CYA you're running.

when you have any sit down situation for "feedback" or whatever, it's OK to just take out your clipboard and paper to take notes (making it appear that you are "engaged" "I just want to be clear and able to review what I need to do to improve," etc etc but not necessarily for documentation purposes), keep these and sign and date them like you do your work notes.

Better yet, is if you are able to ask the program to give you written summaries of these meetings, just to "help" you, beware that typically anything they put to paper will be necessarily be negative, likely moreso than the verbal stuff was. However, you're not really making things worse for yourself by asking for this. It just prevents then from changing the story or making it even worse, if they have more motivation to do so later. In addition to this, as I said, at the time or immediately after write up your own summary of events, the more direct verbal quotes you can write at the time or recall that particular day, the better. (an attorney directly said this to my face).

Whether good or bad, document it all! When making your case you don't have to present the negatives unless it helps to do so (ie to show that what you were told to improve on was not as dire as they are now claiming). Even the informal feedback from seniors and attendings you can do this.

Any written documentation you create, I would either give immediately to my attorney to see what should be done with it to time stamp it, or if I was working on my own I would get these things notarized for the date on a weekly basis.

the point is you don't want them to be the only ones creating a legal and dated paper trail of just their side of the story

you want your own side of what happened just as clearly documented and dated, creating your own secret dossier, preferably guided by an attorney

doing this doesn't always save your job, however, it can sometimes put limits on how hard the program can dick you
-for example, it could keep them from reporting certain things to ACGME which could follow you to another program
-keep them from certain interactions with the medical board, and those things can follow you for the life of your career
-keep them from saying certain things about you to other programs
-keep them from certain actions within any larger medical organization they may be a part of, or future employment opportunities or credentialing/privileges within their system
-get you a neutral to positive letter of recommendation from the PD
-get you letters from faculty that you know support you
-negotiate credit given for rotations you have done, or procedures performed
-negotiate disability pay (if that was a factor) or severance, other benefits like insurance
-or motivate the program to help you transition to another

having an attorney secretly guide you doesn't have to antagonize the program, and can help poise you to obtain the above things
even at the point that you must let them know you have an attorney involved, if your ducks are in a row and you know what you want and are in a good position to negotiate for, again, it doesn't have to be a hassle for them. HR and the hospital legal risk management team come to the party and the attorneys can easily sort things out.

the kiss of death is if you are terminated, once this happens doing any of the above goes out the window. so you want an attorney helping you the minute you're in hot water but still an employee.

I would do all of the above with respect to documenting good/bad feedback and quotes from day 1 of residency, and already have an idea of a good employment law or ADA attorney in mind depending on what your situation may be

you may end up with a stack of papers and a phone number you don't need, but I would also do the above for any job at this point

the ADA and other employment law re: discrimination or basic employee rights, etc etc do not provide nearly the amount of protection people think it will

employers can do whatever they want, and I don't suggest that this litigiousness will prevent harm, but it can do you a lot more good than bad while making a graceful exit

When you have documentation and an attorney, you can be surprised at how many nice reasonable things you can ask for and get quite easily, greatly easing your passage. Employers actually don't mind this as much as you think, as the person said above, employers like it when people go quietly with a happy attorney on each side and a tidy package and confidentiality statement behind you. The t's and i's are more tidy than if they terminate you. When you strike these deals the relationship is permanently over on both sides. They know you can't come back to sue them after this bon voyage.

Coming round to the thread, the above steps of good documentation and an attorney could possibly help you keep your job.

I'd have to say as the OP of this thread, I disagree with most of the last two posts. The balance of power is extremely unequal between the resident and PD's and you cannot exactly level the playing field by trying to outsmart them. You can document whatever you want, you can go waste money on an attorney, it's not going to help. I would say as someone who was in this situation; the best thing you can do as a resident under remediation, probation or risk for getting terminated is to work your butt off like you never have before, and be on the watchout at all times. Lose any ego or entitlement you think you have, and be humble and submissive. Pretend you are in a warzone and the smallest wrong move can cost you your life, so try to prevent anything except good reviews and feedback from coming your way. If you do this for a substantial period of time, good chance you will go off the radar and they will then treat you like a normal human being. My main advice: DO NOT challenge them, or try to outsmart them with having better documentation than they do, recordings, threatening legal actions, etc you will lose. If you do challenge them, you will end up losing a lot of money, time, make yourself angry, fall behind in your training, and will in the process piss them off to the extent that they will do nothing to help you in the future find another position. That is my two cents.

 

[Crayola227]

I'd have to say as the OP of this thread, I disagree with most of the last two posts. The balance of power is extremely unequal between the resident and PD's and you cannot exactly level the playing field by trying to outsmart them. You can document whatever you want, you can go waste money on an attorney, it's not going to help. I would say as someone who was in this situation; the best thing you can do as a resident under remediation, probation or risk for getting terminated is to work your butt off like you never have before, and be on the watchout at all times. Lose any ego or entitlement you think you have, and be humble and submissive. Pretend you are in a warzone and the smallest wrong move can cost you your life, so try to prevent anything except good reviews and feedback from coming your way. If you do this for a substantial period of time, good chance you will go off the radar and they will then treat you like a normal human being. My main advice: DO NOT challenge them, or try to outsmart them with having better documentation than they do, recordings, threatening legal actions, etc you will lose. If you do challenge them, you will end up losing a lot of money, time, make yourself angry, fall behind in your training, and will in the process piss them off to the extent that they will do nothing to help you in the future find another position. That is my two cents.

I agree with everything you said as far as how you should act to keep your job. That wasn't what I was addressing.

I know personally, as in face to face, a few residents who got into hot water.
Of course it goes without saying the first thing to do is play nice and try to get out of hot water and keep your position. I mean, duh, right? I thought it went without saying how precious a residency slot is. You should let a PD **** you in the ass and then go to mouth if it means getting renewed, rather than terminated. Heck, let the whole GME office run the train on you. Carry a whip to hand to your uppers to flog you with whenever the time seems right. I'd give an attending one of my kidneys if that's what it took.

However, there comes a time where the writing is on the wall and there is nothing more you can do about it

I may have mentioned before all of the above advice was said to my face by an attorney who handled a "voluntary" resignation.

Basically, this attorney was able to accomplish all of the things I mentioned as bullets points about getting a graceful exit from a program. That's why those items were listed there. I didn't make them up or pull them out of my ass.

The attorney didn't say anything about voice recording. However, they did suggest all of the other documentation I mentioned. All of which can be obtained without the program being any the wiser, while the program is busy churning out the paper trail needed to terminate the resident.

The only reason the package wasn't nicer than stated (and is already pretty darn good considering a lot of the stories on SDN), was because they didn't have more of that sort of documentation. If they had had more of this, rather than just a nice resignation package, they might have been able to get a larger severance (those are nice when you have to drop a few grand on ERAS for another slot, wouldn't you say??), sue for big bucks or kept their job. Now, whether or not that's an actual good idea or not, is another thing. The point is that I'm not just speculating the value of the paper trail.

I'm sorry you feel like your attorney ripped you off. Sounds like they did. Sounds like you didn't get as nice of a package, which is why I chimed in. On the other hand, reading your story I couldn't help but think that you were lucky that rather than having a termination, you had a resignation. Maybe you're not aware of the value of the distinction or there wasn't much value in yours because yours didn't include a number of protections or benefits for you.

Frankly, I think your story and advice is better for how a resident can seek to obtain a position after being let go from a program, rather than a how-to when it's clear you're getting the boot from your current program and how to leave gracefully and poised to take the next step.

That's why I wrote my post. Maybe if you had known the steps to take, and the things that can be negotiated, you might have been in a better position to gather your own evidence (attorneys rely on YOU to do this), and in a better position to suggest to the attorney what you wanted to negotiate from the program.

Residency employment policies are quite unique from most employment environments and what most employment or ADA attorneys are familiar with. Most of them will need to learn from you as they go. Thank goodness for SDN, where a resident could go to learn, well, all the above, be proactive, and with the help of the attorney walk away with more than a boot in their ass.

One resident was gonna get the boot, got an attorney. This didn't burn bridges or antagonize the program. Everything was done calmly, efficiently, PROFESSIONALLY, and both sides got everything they wanted. The PD even offered help that was not contractually obligated. Granted, in this case because of the lack of documentation that I mentioned, the resident wasn't able to put up a big fight to stay, but they had enough collateral to negotiate a nice release, so things didn't get as nasty as it might have with more evidence.

How nasty your negotiated resignation goes is up to you. If you accept that you are leaving, ask for those things. It's only when you get push back that your attorney should use your evidence to push back. The dance happens between the hospital legal risk management and your attorney for the most part, and in reality involves you and the program very little.

One resident resigns without an attorney. A year later, struggling to get any paperwork signed out of the PD's office, getting the runaround, majorly screwing them, putting them in an awkward spot. No recourse available.

As you said, two cents. I offered my advice in response to yours, to try to suggest how one could have an outcome where someone doesn't feel ripped off by the attorney, gets good value for the money, and gets those bullet points I said.

 

[doctalaughs]

First of all good luck and congrats at a 2nd chance.

I will say I've seen far more residents that SHOULD have been terminated than those (extremely small) number that were terminated. I'm not saying every case of termination is fair. There are probably a percentage of unjust cases. That being said- it stands to reason there are probably many cases that had major real deficiencies. Those people in that situation invariably think they are being singled out and usually have minimal insight into the deficiency (usually arrogance or unprofessionalism). So I think the prior advice about being extremely introspective and honest is key.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[LPKR2016]

I agree with everything you said as far as how you should act to keep your job. That wasn't what I was addressing.

I know personally, as in face to face, a few residents who got into hot water.
Of course it goes without saying the first thing to do is play nice and try to get out of hot water and keep your position. I mean, duh, right? I thought it went without saying how precious a residency slot is. You should let a PD **** you in the ass and then go to mouth if it means getting renewed, rather than terminated. Heck, let the whole GME office run the train on you. Carry a whip to hand to your uppers to flog you with whenever the time seems right. I'd give an attending one of my kidneys if that's what it took.

However, there comes a time where the writing is on the wall and there is nothing more you can do about it

I may have mentioned before all of the above advice was said to my face by an attorney who handled a "voluntary" resignation.

Basically, this attorney was able to accomplish all of the things I mentioned as bullets points about getting a graceful exit from a program. That's why those items were listed there. I didn't make them up or pull them out of my ass.

The attorney didn't say anything about voice recording. However, they did suggest all of the other documentation I mentioned. All of which can be obtained without the program being any the wiser, while the program is busy churning out the paper trail needed to terminate the resident.

The only reason the package wasn't nicer than stated (and is already pretty darn good considering a lot of the stories on SDN), was because they didn't have more of that sort of documentation. If they had had more of this, rather than just a nice resignation package, they might have been able to get a larger severance (those are nice when you have to drop a few grand on ERAS for another slot, wouldn't you say??), sue for big bucks or kept their job. Now, whether or not that's an actual good idea or not, is another thing. The point is that I'm not just speculating the value of the paper trail.

I'm sorry you feel like your attorney ripped you off. Sounds like they did. Sounds like you didn't get as nice of a package, which is why I chimed in. On the other hand, reading your story I couldn't help but think that you were lucky that rather than having a termination, you had a resignation. Maybe you're not aware of the value of the distinction or there wasn't much value in yours because yours didn't include a number of protections or benefits for you.

Frankly, I think your story and advice is better for how a resident can seek to obtain a position after being let go from a program, rather than a how-to when it's clear you're getting the boot from your current program and how to leave gracefully and poised to take the next step.

That's why I wrote my post. Maybe if you had known the steps to take, and the things that can be negotiated, you might have been in a better position to gather your own evidence (attorneys rely on YOU to do this), and in a better position to suggest to the attorney what you wanted to negotiate from the program.

Residency employment policies are quite unique from most employment environments and what most employment or ADA attorneys are familiar with. Most of them will need to learn from you as they go. Thank goodness for SDN, where a resident could go to learn, well, all the above, be proactive, and with the help of the attorney walk away with more than a boot in their ass.

One resident was gonna get the boot, got an attorney. This didn't burn bridges or antagonize the program. Everything was done calmly, efficiently, PROFESSIONALLY, and both sides got everything they wanted. The PD even offered help that was not contractually obligated. Granted, in this case because of the lack of documentation that I mentioned, the resident wasn't able to put up a big fight to stay, but they had enough collateral to negotiate a nice release, so things didn't get as nasty as it might have with more evidence.

How nasty your negotiated resignation goes is up to you. If you accept that you are leaving, ask for those things. It's only when you get push back that your attorney should use your evidence to push back. The dance happens between the hospital legal risk management and your attorney for the most part, and in reality involves you and the program very little.

One resident resigns without an attorney. A year later, struggling to get any paperwork signed out of the PD's office, getting the runaround, majorly screwing them, putting them in an awkward spot. No recourse available.

As you said, two cents. I offered my advice in response to yours, to try to suggest how one could have an outcome where someone doesn't feel ripped off by the attorney, gets good value for the money, and gets those bullet points I said.

Yes I totally agree with what you're saying, and I think the combination of our posts offers a lot of advice for a person in the process of getting booted, and respectively what to do if you do in fact get booted. Out of curiosity, where did your resignation package end up taking you? Are you in a new program now, or are you in the process of applying?

 

[Crayola227]

Yes I totally agree with what you're saying, and I think the combination of our posts offers a lot of advice for a person in the process of getting booted, and respectively what to do if you do in fact get booted. Out of curiosity, where did your resignation package end up taking you? Are you in a new program now, or are you in the process of applying?

Your story is really inspirational for getting a position after receiving the scarlet letter "R" for resignation with really good advice.

As far as me, well, I'm just a fly on the wall. A fly with a really good vantage point.

 

[chocomorsel]

OP, I am glad things are on the up and up for you. I know of a couple of people who have not been successful in finishing residency. Thankfully one was able to get a license and she's a GP now and the other is still out there flapping with nothing to show for all her years of hard work.

Truthfully, in medicine it's still a White Boy's Club of the lighter hue in many many places. So there are plenty on this board who will not understand how when one is of a different race/ethnicity/sex, people look at you differently. And expect absolutely no mistakes. Because plenty of them don't expect you to be there or their equal. And when one makes that mistake, or carries themselves differently due to their different background, then they get targeted. I was there, and yes I made some mistakes. And pissed off the wrong people. And it snowballed from there. I couldn't do anything right cuz everyone was looking for all the wrong things. And my anxiety jumped thru the roof. That didn't help the situation.

So I have been there. And thank God I didn't get fired. One of the main reasons I think was because they had already fired another woman in the department, one of my class mates. And of course all they had on me was this "professionalism" bull**** while my grades and patient care was fine. Couldn't have two residents fired all within a year.

Anyway, glad you were able to find people in your corner to assist you move forward.

I do remember sending out emails to literally every program I could find on ERAS which was about 90+ programs if not more. But of course without a good letter from the PD, there's no moving forward. Which is really a system that needs to be overhauled as that is not how the real world works.

For those who don't believe in White Boy Privilege in residency, go ahead and flame away.

 

[Lessisless]

I'd have to say as the OP of this thread, I disagree with most of the last two posts. The balance of power is extremely unequal between the resident and PD's and you cannot exactly level the playing field by trying to outsmart them. You can document whatever you want, you can go waste money on an attorney, it's not going to help. I would say as someone who was in this situation; the best thing you can do as a resident under remediation, probation or risk for getting terminated is to work your butt off like you never have before, and be on the watchout at all times. Lose any ego or entitlement you think you have, and be humble and submissive. Pretend you are in a warzone and the smallest wrong move can cost you your life, so try to prevent anything except good reviews and feedback from coming your way. If you do this for a substantial period of time, good chance you will go off the radar and they will then treat you like a normal human being. My main advice: DO NOT challenge them, or try to outsmart them with having better documentation than they do, recordings, threatening legal actions, etc you will lose. If you do challenge them, you will end up losing a lot of money, time, make yourself angry, fall behind in your training, and will in the process piss them off to the extent that they will do nothing to help you in the future find another position. That is my two cents.

It is fortunate that you feel that you are in a better place now...

Here is how I see it (as someone who has worked on behalf of residents in similar situation to yours): You were put in an impossible situation, made to feel insufficient and you began to doubt who you are as a doctor. Your program director (s) essentially began painting you as being deficient and after a while, you might have begun to actually believe it. I mean, if they say it, it has to be true? And since you were likely the only one at your program in this type of situation, there was no way they could be wrong or singling you out, right?

They broke you, they scared you, but most of all they made you question who you are as a person and after a while you became that "high school slut" everyone accused you of being. You allowed yourself to become an abuse victim without even knowing it, and you began to look to your abusers as your potential saviors. To me at least, despite they way they treated you, you almost want us to believe that they were correct for treating you as they did. I mean after all, you were eventually provided a "resignation packet," correct? Seems pathetic to me, but believe me I understand your situation.

Malignant program directors (a MINORITY of program directors) pray on this vulnerability. It is an absolute power differential and they have you in their palm. They know it, and they take advantage of it. They pray on what they perceive as weak, outcast, or vulnerable residents.

You must absolutely stand up to bully program directors, but you have to do so in an acceptable way. Don't openly challenge anyone and certainly don't deny any deficiency they claim you have. The easiest resident to terminate is the one that denies he or she has a problem (you see it is a catch-22). You must embrace your "deficiency" and use it to your advantage. The smart resident is the one who can do this while making strategic use of the the policies that govern residency programs (including documentation, due process, evaluations, etc.). Its a simple game of strategy. They have to show their cards if you force them to, but you don't - and there in lies the silver lining.

If you make audio recordings, keep them to yourself as evidence for a rainy day (I know several who have done this, but only one when the recordings actually had to be used). No one is telling you to run around your program claiming you have been falsely accused, but certainly equipping yourself with the knowledge and wherewithal to navigate the murky waters of residency issues such as yours is always in your best interest.

Medicine is perhaps the only establishment still rooted in ancient hierarchy where the white and asian doctors have always dominated. It isn't a fair system. Thankfully, thats why we have lawyers.

 

[LPKR2016]

It is fortunate that you feel that you are in a better place now...

Here is how I see it (as someone who has worked on behalf of residents in similar situation to yours): You were put in an impossible situation, made to feel insufficient and you began to doubt who you are as a doctor. Your program director (s) essentially began painting you as being deficient and after a while, you might have begun to actually believe it. I mean, if they say it, it has to be true? And since you were likely the only one at your program in this type of situation, there was no way they could be wrong or singling you out, right?

They broke you, they scared you, but most of all they made you question who you are as a person and after a while you became that "high school slut" everyone accused you of being. You allowed yourself to become an abuse victim without even knowing it, and you began to look to your abusers as your potential saviors. To me at least, despite they way they treated you, you almost want us to believe that they were correct for treating you as they did. I mean after all, you were eventually provided a "resignation packet," correct? Seems pathetic to me, but believe me I understand your situation.

Malignant program directors (a MINORITY of program directors) pray on this vulnerability. It is an absolute power differential and they have you in their palm. They know it, and they take advantage of it. They pray on what they perceive as weak, outcast, or vulnerable residents.

You must absolutely stand up to bully program directors, but you have to do so in an acceptable way. Don't openly challenge anyone and certainly don't deny any deficiency they claim you have. The easiest resident to terminate is the one that denies he or she has a problem (you see it is a catch-22). You must embrace your "deficiency" and use it to your advantage. The smart resident is the one who can do this while making strategic use of the the policies that govern residency programs (including documentation, due process, evaluations, etc.). Its a simple game of strategy. They have to show their cards if you force them to, but you don't - and there in lies the silver lining.

If you make audio recordings, keep them to yourself as evidence for a rainy day (I know several who have done this, but only one when the recordings actually had to be used). No one is telling you to run around your program claiming you have been falsely accused, but certainly equipping yourself with the knowledge and wherewithal to navigate the murky waters of residency issues such as yours is always in your best interest.

Medicine is perhaps the only establishment still rooted in ancient hierarchy where the white and asian doctors have always dominated. It isn't a fair system. Thankfully, thats why we have lawyers.

These program directors were malignant and they did try to break me and paste on these deficiencies on me but they werent succesful in actually breaking me. They got me out of their program so yes they won. But I understood all the games they were playing me. I knew myself that I was a good resident as so the feedback that my attendings, co residents, and patients that gave me. I had a great handle on my work and I was very efficient without having problems doin them. They didnt like me because they thought I am too comfortable in the program, and a little too confident and outspoken so they attacked me. They slapped on these bull**** unprofessionalism complaints and core competency deficiencies. It was just frustrating having to deal with their crap when I knew I was doin a good job. But they in no way were able to psychologically defeat me in making me feel deficient and inferior, and I was able to maintain my dignity and self esteem. That is something that I am proud of. It reminds me of a Holocaust survivor who had everything taken away from him. Everyone in his family was shot dead, they took all his belongings and tortured him. But he eventually said "You can take everything away from me but you will never be able to control my thoughts" and as such he was an unbreakable person.

 

[Lessisless]

These program directors were malignant and they did try to break me and paste on these deficiencies on me but they werent succesful in actually breaking me. They got me out of their program so yes they won. But I understood all the games they were playing me. I knew myself that I was a good resident as so the feedback that my attendings, co residents, and patients that gave me. I had a great handle on my work and I was very efficient without having problems doin them. They didnt like me because they thought I am too comfortable in the program, and a little too confident and outspoken so they attacked me. They slapped on these bull**** unprofessionalism complaints and core competency deficiencies. It was just frustrating having to deal with their crap when I knew I was doin a good job. But they in no way were able to psychologically defeat me in making me feel deficient and inferior, and I was able to maintain my dignity and self esteem. That is something that I am proud of. It reminds me of a Holocaust survivor who had everything taken away from him. Everyone in his family was shot dead, they took all his belongings and tortured him. But he eventually said "You can take everything away from me but you will never be able to control my thoughts" and as such he was an unbreakable person.

You are brave for sharing your story, and for rising above the shame forced upon you by your program director (s). There are many, many more residents across this country who have suffered as you have.

You are not alone. We are here for you.

 

[caffeinemia]

OP sounds like a complete narcissist. Amusing that a whole host of attending physicians would all the sudden just make up false complaints, do all the paperwork to document it, and then fire him/her. I'm skeptical, especially when "they didn't like that I got too vocal and comfortable," sounds too much like "I didn't realize that part of professionalism is tact and behaved like a complete jackass." But hell, can't really argue with only one perspective on the story. At any rate, good luck in your new program. I'd argue it's an irresponsible anecdote to inspire other fired residents to waste their money...

 

[Lessisless]

OP sounds like a complete narcissist. Amusing that a whole host of attending physicians would all the sudden just make up false complaints, do all the paperwork to document it, and then fire him/her. I'm skeptical, especially when "they didn't like that I got too vocal and comfortable," sounds too much like "I didn't realize that part of professionalism is tact and behaved like a complete jackass." But hell, can't really argue with only one perspective on the story. At any rate, good luck in your new program. I'd argue it's an irresponsible anecdote to inspire other fired residents to waste their money...

And you sound like a program director in the works...why don't you settle down and let the adults do the talking.

 

[caffeinemia]

And you sound like a program director in the works...why don't you settle down and let the adults do the talking.

Good ad hominem homie. that's really gonna scare me. talk when you actually have some cred behind your ****ty 7 posts.

 

[Lessisless]

Good ad hominem homie. that's really gonna scare me. talk when you actually have some cred behind your ****ty 7 posts.

Scare you? That was the last thought on my mind, but funny you should mention that.

Are you sure you're a doctor (or is someone playing a cruel joke on you)?

 

[LPKR2016]

OP sounds like a complete narcissist. Amusing that a whole host of attending physicians would all the sudden just make up false complaints, do all the paperwork to document it, and then fire him/her. I'm skeptical, especially when "they didn't like that I got too vocal and comfortable," sounds too much like "I didn't realize that part of professionalism is tact and behaved like a complete jackass." But hell, can't really argue with only one perspective on the story. At any rate, good luck in your new program. I'd argue it's an irresponsible anecdote to inspire other fired residents to waste their money...

I sound like a complete narcissist?! By sharing my story and trying to help others in my shoes, I am totally a narcissist, good job bro. First of all if you read my post accurately you would realize that I had no problems with any of my attendings, I had an issue with the PD's and some incompetant nurses that got me to that place. Secondly who is inspiring fired residents to waste their money? Some people on this forum are so disrespectful and annoying thinking they can say whatever they want protected by their anonymity behind a computer.

 

[caffeinemia]

Scare you? That was the last thought on my mind, but funny you should mention that.

Are you sure you're a doctor (or is someone playing a cruel joke on you)?

Up to 9 posts now, 3 of which to bore me with lame "you're a kid" insults. Give it till about 20 before your ass gets canned for trolling.

 

[caffeinemia]

I sound like a complete narcissist?! By sharing my story and trying to help others in my shoes, I am totally a narcissist, good job bro. First of all if you read my post accurately you would realize that I had no problems with any of my attendings, I had an issue with the PD's and some incompetant nurses that got me to that place. Secondly who is inspiring fired residents to waste their money? Some people on this forum are so disrespectful and annoying thinking they can say whatever they want protected by their anonymity behind a computer.

Narcissism -- it's hilarious that you don't see how it could be your unprofessional interaction with nursing staff leading to your dismissal -- but instead it's the nurses who are "incompetent" who caused your dismissal. Nope, not your fault at all. Seems like all over America, people are dealing with the competent nurses, while you must face the incompetent ones... and that's why you were fired. LOL. Don't start to call me disrespectful until you look in the mirror "bro." Disrespect for the "incompetents" is prolly what caused your issue in the first place. Most ironic is your OP is where you called your PD a "narcissist." "You worked too hard to get to this point, to let some arrogant and narcissist PD ruin your life and career." Stings a bit to have the tables reversed on you?

Also, don't go flouting your "I stand vindicated" story and then disguise it as "I'm helping others." N of 1 and good for you, but advising someone out of an already low paying job to fly around the country and show up at programs to "network" is hilariously naive. Bless you..

 

[Lessisless]

Up to 9 posts now, 3 of which to bore me with lame "you're a kid" insults. Give it till about 20 before your ass gets canned for trolling.

You really do fluster easily. I was only kidding, but I hear you loud and clear.

Why don't you hurry off so that we don't have to call an RN to burp you, and maybe help you address some of that 'colicky' behavior.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

And you sound like a program director in the works...why don't you settle down and let the adults do the talking.

 

[gutonc]

All users are reminded that SDN is intended to be a respectful, collegial, professional environment.

You are welcome to use the "ignore" function.

 

[Goro]

When did you become so earthy!???!

Of course it goes without saying the first thing to do is play nice and try to get out of hot water and keep your position. I mean, duh, right? I thought it went without saying how precious a residency slot is. You should let a PD **** you in the ass and then go to mouth if it means getting renewed, rather than terminated.

 

[Lessisless]

Agreed. I wish I'd seen some positivity like this when I was having problems. OP, thank you for posting this.

I was dismissed from a specialty residency. Of course I feel that it's unfair, especially when I read about what people talk about they get away with. I had a rocky start, was working VERY hard on improving, asked for feedback/suggestions and was told that I was doing better and improving right up until I got the axe. Literally, that very day. I was not perfect, but when I think about what some folks at my PGY1 facility got away with without being in trouble it shows how unevenly stuff gets applied.

Getting out of that hole seems so insurmountable, since it isn't just one hole but more a minefield. And it's not helped that you're being judged by people who have never had problems with the system. So of course they think it works great, because it works great for them so they can't see how it doesn't work for everyone.

So right now, as I'm navigating those hurdles (I got a job as a GP, now jumping through getting my license) I needed this badly.

Again, thank you.

The double standard applies at a lot of programs, especially ones that lack diversity.

As you suggest, if a PD/chairman has it out for you it doesn't matter how hard you try; it isn't about helping you overcome some vague deficiency or performance issue that they universally claim has the "potential to harm patients" (the blank check excuse that allows them to get away with murder). Whats more, they can just as easily say one thing, even on paper, and do something entirely different, or at least try, when the rubber meets the road. Putting your implicit trust in a process that works under the auspices of "adverse action" is internally inconsistent - human nature says if you really want to help someone, you don't first hurt them by putting them on probation...

Additionally, PD's can easily disregard positive evaluations if they "want" to. There could very well be 99% of all of your evaluations which speak favorably of you, and only 1% that mentions a concern or deficiency. If the PD wanted to, he could easily make a documented deficiency out of the matter and really get the ball rolling on having your resign. After all, rumor spreads like fire in residency programs - one day someone mentions you had trouble placing a line, the next day you're labeled as a "dangerous resident" - game over. Alternatively, if you are well liked, for whatever reason, then a PD can easily justify looking the other way on several negative evaluations. It's up to the PD. The CCC, or education committees, are toothless shams typically set up by a PD or PD (s) aiming to convolute matters for residents by providing them with the ability to say things like "the committee feels this way."

 

[LPKR2016]

The double standard applies at a lot of programs, especially ones that lack diversity.

As you suggest, if a PD/chairman has it out for you it doesn't matter how hard you try; it isn't about helping you overcome some vague deficiency or performance issue that they universally claim has the "potential to harm patients" (the blank check excuse that allows them to get away with murder). Whats more, they can just as easily say one thing, even on paper, and do something entirely different, or at least try, when the rubber meets the road. Putting your implicit trust in a process that works under the auspices of "adverse action" is internally inconsistent - human nature says if you really want to help someone, you don't first hurt them by putting them on probation...

Additionally, PD's can easily disregard positive evaluations if they "want" to. There could very well be 99% of all of your evaluations which speak favorably of you, and only 1% that mentions a concern or deficiency. If the PD wanted to, he could easily make a documented deficiency out of the matter and really get the ball rolling on having your resign. After all, rumor spreads like fire in residency programs - one day someone mentions you had trouble placing a line, the next day you're labeled as a "dangerous resident" - game over. Alternatively, if you are well liked, for whatever reason, then a PD can easily justify looking the other way on several negative evaluations. It's up to the PD. The CCC, or education committees, are toothless shams typically set up by a PD or PD (s) aiming to convolute matters for residents by providing them with the ability to say things like "the committee feels this way."

You hit the nail on the target Lessisless. Unfortunately, I was that resident with most of the examples you mentioned. They literally had it for me for reasons I never completely understood, penalizing me, putting me on probation and getting their paperwork richer. I never felt that they did those things to help me improve but to instead get closer at their goal. They would have a smirk on their faces when they would call me into the offices actually becoming happy to see me suffer, they were evil individuals.

It's nice to see that there are people out there that understand what I went through and symphatize. Unlike this imbecile wise*** Caffenemia who is just a disgusting individual who never has anything good to say in any of his useless posts. I hope sdn flags and removes his account for being such a ****bag.

 

[caffeinemia]

You hit the nail on the target Lessisless. Unfortunately, I was that resident with most of the examples you mentioned. They literally had it for me for reasons I never completely understood, penalizing me, putting me on probation and getting their paperwork richer. I never felt that they did those things to help me improve but to instead get closer at their goal. They would have a smirk on their faces when they would call me into the offices actually becoming happy to see me suffer, they were evil individuals.

It's nice to see that there are people out there that understand what I went through and symphatize. Unlike this imbecile wise*** Caffenemia who is just a disgusting individual who never has anything good to say in any of his useless posts. I hope sdn flags and removes his account for being such a ****bag.

You're welcome to file a complaint and see if your tears get you somewhere. Otherwise, as stated above, press ignore if you can't handle the criticism. Love how people play victims when their story gets picked apart for bs. But thanks for more ad hominem, still carries my point on the narcissism.

 

[LPKR2016]

You're welcome to file a complaint and see if your tears get you somewhere. Otherwise, as stated above, press ignore if you can't handle the criticism. Love how people play victims when their story gets picked apart for bs. But thanks for more ad hominem, still carries my point on the narcissism.

It's not that I cant handle your criticism. You're just a nasty dumb person who writes crappy personal statements for a living. You're probably not even a doctor. Is this how you get off, by criticizing people on sdn and making fun of them? Sorry you have such a misreble life. Lol.

 

[caffeinemia]

It's not that I cant handle your criticism. You're just a nasty dumb person who writes crappy personal statements for a living. You're probably not even a doctor. Is this how you get off, by criticizing people on sdn and making fun of them? Sorry you have such a misreble life. Lol.

I'm glad you looked me up buddy. Sorta creepy, but okay -- glad you got to know me. Yes, I'm highly successful with getting people into medical school and the extra money is a great supplement for when I'll need to travel around the country to "network" (read, "beg") with people after being kicked out of residency. Oh wait... that's you.

 

[LPKR2016]

I'm glad you looked me up buddy. Sorta creepy, but okay -- glad you got to know me. Yes, I'm highly successful with getting people into medical school and the extra money is a great supplement for when I'll need to travel around the country to "network" (read, "beg") with people after being kicked out of residency. Oh wait... that's you.

I never went flying around the country you dumb imbecile. Where did I mention that in my post? I said from my experience, when I actually went in person to certain hospitals within my vicinity that I knew people who worked there, the staff was usually more welcoming. You're just a ******, just by hearing how stupid you sound on this forum I wonder how bad your personal statements are. And you know what, you're such a cocky prick that I might start my own PS writing business on these forums just to piss you off and be your competitor. How do you like that tough guy?

 

[caffeinemia]

I never went flying around the country you dumb imbecile. Where did I mention that in my post? I said from my experience, when I actually went in person to certain hospitals within my vicinity that I knew people who worked there, the staff was usually more welcoming. You're just a ******, just by hearing how stupid you sound on this forum I wonder how bad your personal statements are. And you know what, you're such a cocky prick that I might start my own PS writing business on these forums just to piss you off and be your competitor. How do you like that tough guy?

Since you can't actually advertise services for sale, go for it. And this is really getting a rise out of you. Is that how you talked to the nurses and PD that kicked you out? You should really see an anger management/stress relief expert for that temper. Again, only confirms your narcissism -- it's always everyone else that's the problem... Practice using your non-expletive and derrogatory words, mkay?

 

[LPKR2016]

Yeah maybe that was why...because there are people in this world like you that are just ****ty people who make it unpleasant for others, so maybe you should go and join those incompetent nurses that I worked with, and have a ball together.

 

[caffeinemia]

Yeah maybe that was why...because there are people in this world like you that are just ****ty people who make it unpleasant for others, so maybe you should go and join those incompetent nurses that I worked with, and have a ball together.

Haha, fine fine, i'll offer you an olive branch then -- you should really give this medicine thing a go, but if it doesn't work out for you because of so many strong personalities, you should try politics. There are some pretty thin-skinned people who have really reached the highest height of success in recent months. Toodles, babe.

 

[LPKR2016]

yeah thats right, I dont want to get into politics, but Donald Trump is a great president, so glad that he got into office and is actually doing stuff for a change, without being PC and detracting from these far left liberal idiots that want to let any person into the country and do what's "ethical" and "moral". Screw that, it's America first B****es, refugees can wait on line or go somewhere else for all i care. ha.

 

[caffeinemia]

yeah thats right, I dont want to get into politics, but Donald Trump is a great president, so glad that he got into office and is actually doing stuff for a change, without being PC and detracting from these far left liberal idiots that want to let any person into the country and do what's "ethical" and "moral". Screw that, it's America first B****es, refugees can wait on line or go somewhere else for all i care. ha.

before this gets deleted... knew something wasn't right. Combine this with the private message to punch me... Guess the PD's always right after all.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I see the future...

 

[Smurfette]

Since this thread is no longer productive, closing.