USN got Initial Accredition

[DENTISTHONEY]

http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/programs/search_advanced_us.asp

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[DENTISTHONEY]

USN ortho program got initial accreditation

 

[Hysteria24]

Is that University of Southern Nevada College of Dental Medicine?

 

[long haul]

Please, please, please heed advice on this one. Make sure you know exactly what you are getting into before latching onto this ride. Do every bit of due diligence available to you, and then do some more. I suppose as a "last resort" type of position if every other career option has closed, then one could take a chance. But......you must know that just like everything else in Vegas, the house has a clear upper hand.

It would be advisable to do alot of homework on the "historical" basis surrounding this bunch.

 

[S Files]

Please, please, please heed advice on this one. Make sure you know exactly what you are getting into before latching onto this ride. Do every bit of due diligence available to you, and then do some more. I suppose as a "last resort" type of position if every other career option has closed, then one could take a chance. But......you must know that just like everything else in Vegas, the house has a clear upper hand.

It would be advisable to do alot of homework on the "historical" basis surrounding this bunch.

Agree. those of us who know the history are left wondering how in the world they got initial accreditation. who are the people on the accrediting committees??? do they know the history??

 

[lionelhutz]

Can you guys go into this "history" a bit more?

 

[54807]

Guys,

we are very happy in this program as residents. Our program curriculum, faculty, facility and clinic are all top notch. It deserves it Accreditation. I strongly suggest you to first visit our clinic before you guys write any unprofessional comments here.
USN Orthodontic Resident, 2011

haha, unprofessional?!?! They are simply citing past historical events. How about you sell your program then!

I doubt you'll have problems filling your seats though, even with the above 'trash talking'. You all will get your certificate and your fake MBA and be happy as orthodontists. So most ortho programs are going towards 3 years, aren't they? And most MBA programs are 2 years FULL TIME unless you are already a professional within banking, management, etc. Then you get a fast track due to your knowledge already. I wonder what is getting cut? And why is there a need to link an MBA and ortho? I suppose Wal Mart would benefit from hiring an MBA that can also direct their ortho empire...

I'm hoping all my trash talking will get you riled up and tell us the details of this program! I'm more interested in hearing about the newest things about a start up educational program. Kinda like when ASDOH opened up, I liked reading all about their new ideas. Not that I actually care about the ortho aspect but how they are linking everything together, integrating the business theory, etc. Everytime someone starts something from scratch, they get to try new things that established programs can't do or refuse to do.

You guys need to update your website though...I couldn't find any good details about much of anything.

 

[FemmeDentale]

As an applicant in the top 5% of my class who's not 'desperate' to get into ANY program, I am really excited about this program. I not only have a good friend in this program, but have also visited the program. So unless you've been to the school, talked to the residents, and have a remote idea of what is going on here, you really shouldn't talk. But hey if talking crap about another program fills the inadequacy of your own program...power to you!

 

[54807]

As an applicant in the top 5% of my class who's not 'desperate' to get into ANY program, I am really excited about this program. I not only have a good friend in this program, but have also visited the program. So unless you've been to the school, talked to the residents, and have a remote idea of what is going on here, you really shouldn't talk. But hey if talking crap about another program fills the inadequacy of your own program...power to you!

you are a good person to fill everyone in because you aren't desperate. Comments like 'they teach specific marketing for ortho offices' or 'the clinic has assistants and a lab so they never waste time setting chairs up or making appliances' or 'they have structured everything where they are swamped with patients and we get alot of exposure' would help sell their credibility. I want to know more about the MBA integration to be honest though...why not make it part of DDS curriculum also if they feel so strongly about including it.

I'm not applying ortho. I literally just want to know what they are doing different that is attracting people like you who could go someplace with no tuition perhaps, or not in vegas, or with a dental school attached to them, etc... I like reading about startup stuff. That's it.

 

[FemmeDentale]

Nobody said the USN admin thinks an MBA should be a mandatory part of the ortho curriculum. This program offers a GREAT alternative to applicants like me who'd rather have business classes than spend that time doing research. Although research is incorporated in the USN curriculum as well, so you get the best of both worlds. It's a personal choice, that's all. Everyone I've mentioned the MBA to thinks it's a fantastic idea. Being a female who may choose to practice part time at some point in my career, I'm interested in topics such ownership vs. being a private contractor, etc. that are covered in those classes.

I probably could get into a school with minimal tuition, but I like the idea of the MBA, am overly impressed with the facilities at USN, and would rather live in Henderson, NV than some random 'middle of nowhere' program. Henderson was voted one of the top cities to live in in the US a few years ago, and is a nice Suburb which offers the luxury of being close to the Vegas strip. I've been to other programs that have been around longer, but honestly couldn't see myself at some of them.

Like any other dental/specialty program, you get what you put in, and I'm sure USN is no different. There is no perfect program out there, but there is no reason for people to talk **** about a program or people they know nothing about. Like they say, you shouldn't throw rocks if you yourself live in a glass house!

 

[armorshell]

Nobody said the USN admin thinks an MBA should be a mandatory part of the ortho curriculum. This program offers a GREAT alternative to applicants like me who'd rather have business classes than spend that time doing research. Although research is incorporated in the USN curriculum as well, so you get the best of both worlds. It's a personal choice, that's all. Everyone I've mentioned the MBA to thinks it's a fantastic idea. Being a female who may choose to practice part time at some point in my career, I'm interested in topics such ownership vs. being a private contractor, etc. that are covered in those classes.

I probably could get into a school with minimal tuition, but I like the idea of the MBA, am overly impressed with the facilities at USN, and would rather live in Henderson, NV than some random 'middle of nowhere' program. Henderson was voted one of the top cities to live in in the US a few years ago, and is a nice Suburb which offers the luxury of being close to the Vegas strip. I've been to other programs that have been around longer, but honestly couldn't see myself at some of them.

Like any other dental/specialty program, you get what you put in, and I'm sure USN is no different. There is no perfect program out there, but there is no reason for people to talk **** about a program or people they know nothing about. Like they say, you shouldn't throw rocks if you yourself live in a glass house!

ITT, people don't read the posts before they respond to them.

 

[Hysteria24]

There is no perfect program out there, but there is no reason for people to talk **** about a program or people they know nothing about

You're hitting close to home with that statement. As a USC student I am all too familiar with that.

My earlier comments (posting that article) weren't meant to put down the program at all. It seemed like the first couple of posts were implying there was some recent history about this situation, and even having been on these boards for a while now, I had never heard anything about it.

 

[FemmeDentale]

ITT, people don't read the posts before they respond to them.

What didn't I read??

 

[FemmeDentale]

You're hitting close to home with that statement. As a USC student I am all too familiar with that.

My earlier comments (posting that article) weren't meant to put down the program at all. It seemed like the first couple of posts were implying there was some recent history about this situation, and even having been on these boards for a while now, I had never heard anything about it.

I wasn't referring to you if you didn't make any negative comments. It's to everyone who was so sure this program wouldn't get accredited and made it their mission to put the program down. I'm sorry if you felt the comment was targeting you.

Anyway, to anyone who is interested, give this program a fair chance by checking it out yourself, and not buying into others' pessimism. I'm interviewing in a few weeks, so I'd be happy to answer any q's after that.

 

[Guy Smiley]

I wasn't referring to you if you didn't make any negative comments. It's to everyone who was so sure this program wouldn't get accredited and made it their mission to put the program down. I'm sorry if you felt the comment was targeting you.

Anyway, to anyone who is interested, give this program a fair chance by checking it out yourself, and not buying into others' pessimism. I'm interviewing in a few weeks, so I'd be happy to answer any q's after that.

You are interviewing in a few weeks? You made it sound like they already have their residents selected? So are you a senior dental student or are you already out?

 

[armorshell]

What didn't I read??

The fact that the person you were railing against didn't say one bad thing about the program and was simply asking for more information about it?

 

[FemmeDentale]

The fact that the person you were railing against didn't say one bad thing about the program and was simply asking for more information about it?

In case you didn't notice, there wasn't a quote, so that message was not specifically for one person, it was also for the couple of ppl that PM'd me to 'warn' me about the program.

Some people don't LOOK at posts before they respond to them!

 

[armorshell]

In case you didn't notice, there wasn't a quote, so that message was not specifically for one person, it was also for the couple of ppl that PM'd me to 'warn' me about the program.

Some people don't LOOK at posts before they respond to them!

You directly rephrased something they said and responded to it, specifically about them thinking an MBA is required, or asking why the program directors think an MBA is essential or whatever. But I won't argue semantics, just trying to point out the fact that you seem very on edge about something no one in this thread seems to actually be talking about i.e. how "bad" this program is.

 

[Jone]

Femme-

The only caution I would give you is not to put all your eggs in one basket - as the saying goes. I know plenty of top 5%, or even valedictorians who did not Match into their #1 choice. Given that you are interviewing at USN soon, and ortho Match has already passed, I assume you did not bother to apply to any other ortho programs. It sounds like you have outstanding numbers, but the odds of "Matching" into ortho if you only apply to one program is not too likely, regardless of your stats (unless you have political connections at the program).

I probably could get into a school with minimal tuition, but I like the idea of the MBA, am overly impressed with the facilities at USN, and would rather live in Henderson, NV than some random 'middle of nowhere' program. Henderson was voted one of the top cities to live in in the US a few years ago, and is a nice Suburb which offers the luxury of being close to the Vegas strip. I've been to other programs that have been around longer, but honestly couldn't see myself at some of them.

Anyway, to anyone who is interested, give this program a fair chance by checking it out yourself, and not buying into others' pessimism. I'm interviewing in a few weeks, so I'd be happy to answer any q's after that

 

[FemmeDentale]

You directly rephrased something they said and responded to it, specifically about them thinking an MBA is required, or asking why the program directors think an MBA is essential or whatever. But I won't argue semantics, just trying to point out the fact that you seem very on edge about something no one in this thread seems to actually be talking about i.e. how "bad" this program is.

I didn't realize that I couldn't respond to more than one person in a thread. I really don't feel the need to respond to each person that private msgs me individually, especially to a couple of them who've stated their opinions on this topic in earlier threads.

Please, please, please heed advice on this one. Make sure you know exactly what you are getting into before latching onto this ride. Do every bit of due diligence available to you, and then do some more. I suppose as a "last resort" type of position if every other career option has closed, then one could take a chance. But......you must know that just like everything else in Vegas, the house has a clear upper hand.

It would be advisable to do alot of homework on the "historical" basis surrounding this bunch.

Uhhh...I'm pretty sure this post is trying to say it's a bad program.

 

[FemmeDentale]

Femme-

The only caution I would give you is not to put all your eggs in one basket - as the saying goes. I know plenty of top 5%, or even valedictorians who did not Match into their #1 choice. Given that you are interviewing at USN soon, and ortho Match has already passed, I assume you did not bother to apply to any other ortho programs. It sounds like you have outstanding numbers, but the odds of "Matching" into ortho if you only apply to one program is not too likely, regardless of your stats (unless you have political connections at the program).

Jone - totally agree, it's tough to get into ortho. If things don't work out at USN, I'm going to apply to A LOT of schools next year

 

[S Files]

I probably could get into a school with minimal tuition, but I like the idea of the MBA, am overly impressed with the facilities at USN, and would rather live in Henderson, NV than some random 'middle of nowhere' program. Henderson was voted one of the top cities to live in in the US a few years ago, and is a nice Suburb which offers the luxury of being close to the Vegas strip. I've been to other programs that have been around longer, but honestly couldn't see myself at some of them.

ok time to call you out on this. so you'd like me to believe that you did not apply to any other programs, (including those such as Mayo and Einstein that pay residents up to 55K/year), and risk not getting in anywhere, and put all your eggs in one basket. you may very well be the first ortho applicant ever to apply to one program only. that basket being USN - charges over 60K/yr, the first ortho school ever to not be affiliated with a dental school or hospital (good luck getting multi-disciplinary training), poor support & referral base (Nevada State Dental Assoc has come out AGAINST the program). also the 2 crony directors both have a history of running programs into the ground (UNLV almost losing accreditation and not being allowed to accept students for a year, Texas getting into deep ****). Clinical training? ya good luck finding patients. read las vegas review journal and SDN threads and find out what former residents of the USN directors have to say about their training.
listen, it's ok to admit you are a qualified applicant who didn't get in to an ortho program...fine...we know it's very competitive and not always fair. don't BS everyone though. you've already made up your mind, and I wish you good luck. but the fact remains i am being a realist, not a pessimist, when i say anyone who has spent a little time reading about the history of the USN program and its directors has every right to be skeptical.
someone i know doing a gpr interviewed there, was accepted, and subsequently refused the acceptance - refused because he spent an extra week down there educating himself. there may be more like him, so your chances of getting in are high.

 

[FemmeDentale]

ok time to call you out on this. so you'd like me to believe that you did not apply to any other programs, (including those such as Mayo and Einstein that pay residents up to 55K/year), and risk not getting in anywhere, and put all your eggs in one basket. you may very well be the first ortho applicant ever to apply to one program only. that basket being USN - charges over 60K/yr, the first ortho school ever to not be affiliated with a dental school or hospital (good luck getting multi-disciplinary training), poor support & referral base (Nevada State Dental Assoc has come out AGAINST the program). also the 2 crony directors both have a history of running programs into the ground (UNLV almost losing accreditation and not being allowed to accept students for a year, Texas getting into deep ****). Clinical training? ya good luck finding patients. read las vegas review journal and SDN threads and find out what former residents of the USN directors have to say about their training.
listen, it's ok to admit you are a qualified applicant who didn't get in to an ortho program...fine...we know it's very competitive and not always fair. don't BS everyone though. you've already made up your mind, and I wish you good luck. but the fact remains i am being a realist, not a pessimist, when i say anyone who has spent a little time reading about the history of the USN program and its directors has every right to be skeptical.
someone i know doing a gpr interviewed there, was accepted, and subsequently refused the acceptance - refused because he spent an extra week down there educating himself. there may be more like him, so your chances of getting in are high.

Hey Sherlock...when did I ever say that I didn't apply to other programs?? Yes I did apply this year and didn't match, all I said was that if I reapply, I probably do have a decent shot of getting in somewhere cheaper. No I didn't apply to places that would actually pay me, because I didn't want to live in any of those places. I know ortho is tough to get into, but those 3 years will still be a part of my life, and I'd rather not be unhappy. So yeah great work there on calling me out.

 

[gryffindor]

What possesses CODA to initially accredit an ortho program not affiliated with any sort of dental program at all? USN does not have a dental school, no hospital with dental residencies, not even a hygiene or AEGD clinic. Where will the next ortho program start - in affiliation with an automotive college? Is there a connection between the people starting these programs and the people on CODA? I should see if I can get initial accreditation for the ortho residency that was set up in my garage.

 

[dentist1979]

Allright Guys.... Everyone is bashing about this new program in Vegas (Henderson).... All I would like to say is every program has its positive and negative sides. This one is probably no different in the sense that it has its own positives and negatives.
Instead of making comments on history, I think, we should all look at the present and see how this program is progressing with time and be united as a community of dentists and specialists rather than making comments.....

 

[orthomzt]

I was an intern and part of the first generation of USN orthodontists, I was only able to spend 6 months out of the year of the internship program lenght because I got in to an ortho recidency in Monterrey, Mexico that started last week. I couldn't apply for the residency at USN because I'm not graduate from an accredited dental school which is a requirement for any program in NV.
I have to say I could not be more happy about the accreditation of this program. While I was an intern at USN I applied to ortho and got to see other 5 programs (4 americans and 1 canadian) for interviews and there was nothing better or worst than USN. Every school has their own issues, andvantages and disadvantages.
I have an advice for any candidate that is looking for a program with top of the line facilities, some of the best faculty in the country flying to Vegas to teach their blocks (USN system works by blocks of two or three weeks of intense studies in one field at the time), that wants to learn how ortho business works, go to USN, I realy wish I had the opportunity to stay there but if you guys that can apply and won't because of rumors about two very respectable people are wrong from my point of view but of couse, it's your decision.

 

[Str8teef]

Hurst and Pourhamidi took the fall for UNLV's lack of honesty with the accreditation committee. UNLV fabricated post graduate orthodontic courses and instructors on accreditation documents without the knowledge of either Pourhamidi or Hurst. Hurst, Pourhamidi, Linck and others left together as a result of the actions of the administration. The residents they taught all passed ABO the next year, but the class that was left to the new instructors and directors didn't fare so well (maybe as many as half didn't pass). I would be willing to bet that some in this group are the main detractors of P and H. Be careful who you listen to. USN isn't a conventional program. It’s a start up 'pioneer' program with a bright future. They have the latest technology, a brand new facility, and a who's who of visiting faculty. I think you should check it out for yourself, and be careful about your sources. Many sources are tainted and there is this weird "good 'ol boys club" mentality about new programs. As for the MBA... I had to laugh about it being "fake." All the faculty are PhD, and most have served on the boards of the largest companies in the US, including but not limited to GE, Intel, Senior VP of NASDAQ, VP of Compaq, GM, McDonnell Douglas, and Caterpillar. Many residents are now entered in a national business competition involving dental related business start ups. Sounds pretty fake.

 

[Tweedsmyhomeboy]

What possesses CODA to initially accredit an ortho program not affiliated with any sort of dental program at all? USN does not have a dental school, no hospital with dental residencies, not even a hygiene or AEGD clinic. Where will the next ortho program start - in affiliation with an automotive college? Is there a connection between the people starting these programs and the people on CODA? I should see if I can get initial accreditation for the ortho residency that was set up in my garage.

Obviously you're not the brightest person out there!! There were many dental programs that began with one specialty, then developed a postdoctoral program and finally opened a predoctoral program as well.

As far as the history of the directors goes, I don't think anybody knows the history except the people who were directly involved. And the residents who are in the program at USN probably have a little more knowledge about the history since they have been in close contact with all the faculty.

USN's faculty has 4 other orthodontists, a prosthodontist and some other staff members who left UNLV with Drs. Hurst and Pourhamidi and are extremely excited to teach at the new facility. I don't think you would have a following of this many faculty members if you did something wrong. The problem may not have been with the directors, but just as we all know there are politics involved with dental schools; and no school would like to take the blame of failure on itself. Ortho programs in general have a lot of politics involved with them, but to say bad things about a program that is in its infancy is ridiculous. Once people see the facility, the extremely highly reputable faculty who is coming to USN to teach from Oklahoma, Texas, and California; and are all very well accomplished people in their respected fields, you will be able to understand why this program got its accreditation and why it is here to stay!!

As far as the MBA portion of the program goes.. I don't think anybody can really put it better than Str8teef did!

 

[Luv2emBRACE]

I can tell you how my experience has been so far in this program... I graduated from USC Dental; top 5% of my class. I'm one of the a few in this program who does not have a master degree a long with my D.D.S... having said that, I have to say that ending up at USN was the best thing that could've happened to me. Technologically, it is the most advance clinic in the nation. As far as the MBA is concerned, it's true that we are health care providers! But, as orthodontists, we become CEOs of multi-million dollars producing establishments and we need to have a good understanding of how to operate it as such. As a previous $1 Mil + business owner I learned more about proper business management in the past 5 months than I did in the previous 4 years in the real world, where most of learning happened by trails and errors; and that is an expensive way of learning how to do business. We have 90 + passing criteria, which makes schooling more difficult, but can you imagine how good you would've learned your undergrad subjects if you were held up to such a high standards didactically? But, most of all, what really makes me enjoy this program is the helpfulness and positiveness of everyone involved (faculty, staff... and etc). I had three interviews prior to this and only one had a similar friendly environment as this. With love for all of you, since I know what is like applying for ortho residency, I encourage you to come and see the clinic and the program for yourself so you can measure other programs relative to it. Wish you guys luck on your endeavor…
p.s. Just for consideration! living & boarding expenses are low in Vegas... and it's a TON of FUN, being a vacation destination... All together, a great package for me...! =)

 

[gryffindor]

Obviously you're not the brightest person out there!! There were many dental programs that began with one specialty, then developed a postdoctoral program and finally opened a predoctoral program as well.

Please enlighten me and tell me which pre-doctoral dental programs began with a GPR or any specialty program before the dental school. I'm always up for expanding my not-so-bright base of dental trivia. With this USN ortho program, we've gone backwards in time to the Angle/Dewey School days by opening up ortho programs with no other affiliated dental programs. Combine that with Damon going around proclaiming non-extraction treatment and we really have gone back a century to Angle's times.

Can you also tell us who the faculty from Oklahoma, California, and Texas are that are coming to teach?

 

[FemmeDentale]

Refuse to comment any further on this issue and spark more ignorance and hatred on this thread. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

 

[dentist1979]

.

 

[54807]

Hurst and Pourhamidi took the fall for UNLV's lack of honesty with the accreditation committee. UNLV fabricated post graduate orthodontic courses and instructors on accreditation documents without the knowledge of either Pourhamidi or Hurst. Hurst, Pourhamidi, Linck and others left together as a result of the actions of the administration. The residents they taught all passed ABO the next year, but the class that was left to the new instructors and directors didn't fare so well (maybe as many as half didn't pass). I would be willing to bet that some in this group are the main detractors of P and H. Be careful who you listen to. USN isn't a conventional program. It’s a start up 'pioneer' program with a bright future. They have the latest technology, a brand new facility, and a who's who of visiting faculty. I think you should check it out for yourself, and be careful about your sources. Many sources are tainted and there is this weird "good 'ol boys club" mentality about new programs. As for the MBA... I had to laugh about it being "fake." All the faculty are PhD, and most have served on the boards of the largest companies in the US, including but not limited to GE, Intel, Senior VP of NASDAQ, VP of Compaq, GM, McDonnell Douglas, and Caterpillar. Many residents are now entered in a national business competition involving dental related business start ups. Sounds pretty fake.

Don't you worry, I'm at a shortened DDS program...3 years....so by my sarcasm mine is fake.

Me calling it 'fake' did get you to respond though (see my post again...)!! If I had just said, tell me about the MBA....no tempers flare and information doesn't get passed on. That's SDN!

 

[ItsGavinC]

Well to name a few: Jacksonville Univ doesn't have a dental school, Maimonides Medical Center doesn't have dental school, Montefiore Med Center doesnt have dental school, St Barnabas Hospital doesnt have dental school and a few more .... ,maybe there might be one in ur garage that no one knows of ?????

Those last three that you mentioned are NY programs, they all are within established medical centers, and they all have affiliation agreements with dental schools. In other words, these programs have research, funding, and a background in medicine to back up their advanced dental programs.

Jacksonville Univ has been the subject of much ridicule regarding accreditation in the same manner that this Vegas program has.

 

[S Files]

probably could get into a school with minimal tuition, but I like the idea of the MBA, am overly impressed with the facilities at USN, and would rather live in Henderson, NV than some random 'middle of nowhere' program. Henderson was voted one of the top cities to live in in the US a few years ago, and is a nice Suburb which offers the luxury of being close to the Vegas strip. I've been to other programs that have been around longer, but honestly couldn't see myself at some of them.

Hey Sherlock...when did I ever say that I didn't apply to other programs?? Yes I did apply this year and didn't match, all I said was that if I reapply, I probably do have a decent shot of getting in somewhere cheaper. No I didn't apply to places that would actually pay me, because I didn't want to live in any of those places. I know ortho is tough to get into, but those 3 years will still be a part of my life, and I'd rather not be unhappy. So yeah great work there on calling me out.

Ok so you did apply this year and didn't get in. but now all of a sudden you "probably can get into a school with minimal tuition." thanks for strengthening my point. i know it's disheartening to not match first time around. my suggestion to applicants is strengthen your apps instead of trying to convince yourself (to the point of being delusional) into thinking that this is your top choice when in fact it may be your only shot. you can lie to yourself, but will be called out when you don't convince anyone else.

another point, at AAO in Denver last yr i met a UNLV grad, who confirmed to me that under Hurst, many did not treat a SINGLE full Class II case throughout their ortho residency. Also most didn't do a single surgical case. he is understandably disgruntled about it and told me it IS hurst and co who brought down the program, not the new batch. indeed, at least the new batch was able to re-accredit the program. but boy did hurst and co make out with load of $$$$.

 

[Str8teef]

So your opinions are based on a bitter ex-resident who probably wouldn't have been a resident if it wasn't for the OEC enormous class size? hmmm They didn't treat those cases because the new admin didn't do ANYTHING with them for 6 months maybe longer during the change of regime. They were just sitting there twiddling their thumbs. S Files, why so bitter?

 

[gryffindor]

Well to name a few: Jacksonville Univ doesn't have a dental school, Maimonides Medical Center doesn't have dental school, Montefiore Med Center doesnt have dental school, St Barnabas Hospital doesnt have dental school and a few more .... ,maybe there might be one in ur garage that no one knows of ?????

Obviously reading comprehension isn't terribly important for that MBA at USN.
Your colleague wrote:

There were many dental programs that began with one specialty, then developed a postdoctoral program and finally opened a predoctoral program as well.

I'm still waiting to hear about postdoctoral programs (dental residencies) that existed first and were then followed by the opening of a predoctoral program (dental schools). Instead you listed ortho programs that exist without dental schools. I am aware of these programs and alluded to them in my initial post. What I am not aware of are any ORTHO residencies that exist without ANY other dental programs which is exactly what USN and the ortho residency in my garage are.

Let me help you out here with the ortho programs you listed:
Jacksonville: had a hygiene program first
Maimonides: had a pedo and GPR before the Ortho
Montefiore: has OMS, pedo and GPR
St. Barnabas: had a GPR and pedo before the Ortho

For completeness, let's cover the other ortho programs that exist without dental schools:

Mayo: OMS & Ortho
Vanderbilt: OMS, Ortho, has had Pedo and GPR in the past,
Washington Hospital: OMS & Ortho
Eastman: OMS, GPR, AEGD, Pedo, Prostho, Perio, TMJ and Ortho
St. Louis: Endo, Perio Ortho, had a dental school that closed in the 80s
Albert Einstein: GPR & Ortho

Besides Jacksonville and St. Louis (formerly a dental school), there seems to be a common theme here that OMS and Pedo are stand-alone specialties that are more critical to truly serve dental needs of a population than a cosmetic-based specialty like Ortho. As others wrote here, Jacksonville is really the only true anomaly in this list. Let's not forget they started under OEC, a money-first-education-second venture. OEC, the same corporation that started UNLV and brought Hurst out of San Antonio (another young ortho program he was involved with since it's creation) and to Las Vegas to run their residency monster. Third time's a charm, maybe this time when Hurst steps out from USN, it is going to really be a stand-out program and not be in shambles like UNLV (had to close for a year) and San Antonio (not matching all spots in a recent year) after he left those.

 

[DIRTIE]

What possesses CODA to initially accredit an ortho program not affiliated with any sort of dental program at all? USN does not have a dental school, no hospital with dental residencies, not even a hygiene or AEGD clinic. Where will the next ortho program start - in affiliation with an automotive college? Is there a connection between the people starting these programs and the people on CODA? I should see if I can get initial accreditation for the ortho residency that was set up in my garage.

One of my buddies is a CODA commisioner, he said that there are a set of reqirements, not based on need or anything of that sorts, and if you meet those requirements than there is no reason why they would deny you accredidation. You can start one in your garage, as long as you pay the deposit for a site visit, he would be happy to come and check it out and see if you pass.

 

[dentist1979]

gryffindor why don't you start one in ur garage ???? Do it instead of talking trash and then make any statements....

 

[gryffindor]

gryffindor why don't you start one in ur garage ???? Do it instead of talking trash and then make any statements....

I won't be getting an MBA in my ortho program so my reading comprehension isn't that great, so please point out where I have talked trash? Everything that I've written is fact except that I don't have a garage so there is no residency program there. But theoretically I could set one up since DIRTIE provided us with some good info on how to get initial accreditation.

I'm still waiting to learn about those dental schools that started as residencies first and who your instructors from California, Texas, and Oklahoma are going to be.

I will state my point again since it seems like you missed it: USN is the only program that has been started as a stand-alone ortho program, an absolute anomaly in dental education except for back in the Angle/Dewey days 100 years ago when stand-alone ortho programs were the only ortho programs. The only other Ortho program started even remotely like this was Jacksonville, a program with a tainted start that USN's founder is connected to. We'll give your founder a third chance since as the saying goes, third time's a charm.

 

[OrthoRockstar]

Boston University began as a specialty school before it's pre-doctoral program started:
http://dentalschool.bu.edu/about/history.html

The USN residents have already learned from Dr. James Loos of USC, and are currently learning about the iCAT from Dr. David Hatcher of UCSF. Dr. Ram Nanda of OU will be here soon as well.

Sorry to name drop, but as you said - let's stick to the facts.

 

[dentist1979]

I won't be getting an MBA in my ortho program so my reading comprehension isn't that great, so please point out where I have talked trash? Everything that I've written is fact except that I don't have a garage so there is no residency program there. But theoretically I could set one up since DIRTIE provided us with some good info on how to get initial accreditation.

I'm still waiting to learn about those dental schools that started as residencies first and who your instructors from California, Texas, and Oklahoma are going to be.

I will state my point again since it seems like you missed it: USN is the only program that has been started as a stand-alone ortho program, an absolute anomaly in dental education except for back in the Angle/Dewey days 100 years ago when stand-alone ortho programs were the only ortho programs. The only other Ortho program started even remotely like this was Jacksonville, a program with a tainted start that USN's founder is connected to. We'll give your founder a third chance since as the saying goes, third time's a charm.

dude.....getting accreditation is NOT an easy process...and YES talkin about opening ortho program in ur garage is TALKING TRASH. You CANNOT open a program in ur garage because ortho has to be affiliated with a university or a hospital system that is accreditated. Is ur garage accreditated? Oh I forget, you dont have a garage right? Nevermind.... Just for ur info....the tuition for ortho/mba is 50K a year which is about average (or a little less) on the west coast...OrthoRockstar said it right.... well-known instructors visit here to teach the residents.

 

[Tweedsmyhomeboy]

gryffindor
I'm still waiting to learn about those dental schools that started as residencies first and who your instructors from California, Texas, and Oklahoma are going to be.


----------------
Wow!! You have too much time on your hands that you have to keep writing remarks on this website. For your information, BU actually started as a POSTDOCTORAL PERIO PROGRAM, hence the name Goldman School of Dental Medicine, and after followed a postdoctoral program which then finally became a dental school.

As far as your tainted Jacksonville theory with OEC. OEC is no longer affiliated with that program, but Dr. Jerrold, the program director is actually one of the editors of Litigation, Legislation and Ethics in the AJODO, and was the director of 2 other well-known programs in NY before he took this position; and another associate professor there, Dr. Ackerman, is a very well-known 3rd generation orthodontist involved in a lot of research and was previously at UNC. I think his father also wrote a chapter in this book you may have heard of before, called Contemporary Orthodontics by Proffit. Maybe you've heard of this book, but then again you sit on this website so much I'm sure you don't get time to do anything else. Regardless of the situation, I believe that Jacksonville is actually doing pretty well clinically, and I think a good amount of instructors will be giving lectures at AAO this year as well. Maybe you should go there and tell them what you think, since you must be such a world renown orthodontist yourself.

I think with due time the program at USN will get its recognition. If you're so interested in the program you should go there and visit. I'm sure the residents/faculty will be more than happy to give you a tour. And from what I have seen, the facility is definitely one of most technologically advanced facilities in the country. By the way if you're going to say things about Hurst make sure you get your facts straight because the year nobody matched there(2007), he had been gone from the university for over 2 years. There were 2 other directors at that time Dr. Gonzalez who was leaving and Dr. Pavlin who had just come in, so it really had nothing to do with Dr. Hurst at all.

As for the faculty at USN; since it must be too hard for you to get off SDN and actually go to the website yourself to check the faculty list, I am attaching the site here so that you don't sprain your fingers too much..http://www.usn.edu/dental/clinical-sciences

Though I'm sure you know how much we value your opinion, I'm sure you're still going to give it..So please feel free to let me know what you think, and if there are any other issues in life that I can help you with I will gladly respond to those as well!

 

[gryffindor]

tweedsmyhomeboy - Besides the info on Boston Univ. and the info on your instructors, the rest of your post isn't news to me. My responses and the responses from you and your colleagues bring up facts and dirty secrets for potential students who might come on SDN searching for info on USN and other ortho programs. I haven't said anything disparaging about any of the ortho programs mentioned in this thread, just reiterating what is already known about them - Jacksonville was started as an OEC project, UNLV was also an OEC project that had to close for a year, San Antonio didn't match all of it's positions in 2007, USN is possibly the first stand-alone ortho program to get initial accreditation, and Dr. Hurst was at two of these programs before USN (his bio on USN's website conveniently leaves out any mention of being at UNLV). Seems like you and dentist1979 are bothered that I have insinuated accreditation is so simple that even I could recruit a few buddies and start a program.

I've seen re-accreditation happen three times in my dental education so I don't doubt it can be a difficult process. I just find it's odd that in the last 5 years, 7 new ortho programs have opened (Maimonides, Jacksonville, UNLV, Colorado, South Carolina, Arizona, USN) yet plenty of ortho publications are crying about how hard it is to find and fund full time faculty at the existing 50-something programs. If you don't already have the AAOF hounding you for donations to "advance the orthodontic specialty by supporting education and research" then just wait because it's coming. I'm not aware of a huge shortage of the number of orthodontists except maybe in rural areas. It doesn't take an MBA to figure out the supply and demand of putting out almost 50 more grads a year in a field where not too many of the older generation are retiring.

If USN is as amazing as you have all written and as its website appears, then it shouldn't take long for the program to establish itself and shed all the drama. It doesn't matter what I think or say, I have nothing to do with USN.

 

[barbed wire]

tweedsmyhomeboy -

I just find it's odd that in the last 5 years, 7 new ortho programs have opened (Maimonides, Jacksonville, UNLV, Colorado, South Carolina, Arizona, USN) .... I'm not aware of a huge shortage of the number of orthodontists except maybe in rural areas. It doesn't take an MBA to figure out the supply and demand of putting out almost 50 more grads a year in a field where not too many of the older generation are retiring.

Great point. I also think there is getting to be a big over supply of orthodontists, especially with so many more Pedo grad programs coming up. Pedos are getting more and more into ortho as well as the GD's. Try to find a job right now in anywhere remotely desirable - good luck. The money that was in ortho 5 years ago is not there now and will likely not come back with more and more graduates saturating the market. All that said, ortho is still a great gig.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Great point. I also think there is getting to be a big over supply of orthodontists, especially with so many more Pedo grad programs coming up. Pedos are getting more and more into ortho as well as the GD's.

I'd like to see some references to back up that statement. In my opinion of my profession, VERY few pediatric dentists are doing full bracket/band cases. Pediatric dentists should be doing space maintenance, and I believe that most are (B&L, nance, LLHA, TPA, etc.). I also think that some are doing interceptive or phase 1 orthodontics, but that those numbers are somewhat limited. All of this should make cases easier for the orthodontist.

For most typical pediatric practices, it seems that providing orthodontics results in lesser income potential, especially when cost of instruments and time are factored into the equation. The majority of pediatric dentists have no interest in providing orthodontics. It simply isn't worth our time. This is all anecdotal evidence based on those I have seen and spoken to. Don't forget that by all published accounts the income of a pediatric dentist surpassed that of the orthodontist several years ago. We don't need orthodontics to make money in our specialty.

I can't comment on general dentists increasing their interests in orthodontics, but I'd be interested to see how that is going in the current economic state.

 

[ItsGavinC]

This is a general reminder to keep this discussion passionate and interesting, but also be respectful of others. Posting replies directed at humiliating individuals, rather than addressing what those individuals have stated, only weakens your argument and will result in the thread being closed.

 

[toothmeister]

The residents they taught all passed ABO the next year, but the class that was left to the new instructors and directors didn't fare so well (maybe as many as half didn't pass)... I would be willing to bet that some in this group are the main detractors of P and H.

Before you accuse some from the current program at UNLV of propagating rumors, you should check your own facts before you become a hypocrite.

How reliable is your information on the number of people who failed the ABO? Do you really think that 8 out of 16 people failed the exam due to the new faculty? Not likely!

 

[S Files]

Hurst and Pourhamidi took the fall for UNLV's lack of honesty with the accreditation committee. UNLV fabricated post graduate orthodontic courses and instructors on accreditation documents without the knowledge of either Pourhamidi or Hurst. Hurst, Pourhamidi, Linck and others left together as a result of the actions of the administration. The residents they taught all passed ABO the next year, but the class that was left to the new instructors and directors didn't fare so well (maybe as many as half didn't pass). I would be willing to bet that some in this group are the main detractors of P and H. Be careful who you listen to. USN isn't a conventional program. It’s a start up 'pioneer' program with a bright future. They have the latest technology, a brand new facility, and a who's who of visiting faculty. I think you should check it out for yourself, and be careful about your sources. Many sources are tainted and there is this weird "good 'ol boys club" mentality about new programs. As for the MBA... I had to laugh about it being "fake." All the faculty are PhD, and most have served on the boards of the largest companies in the US, including but not limited to GE, Intel, Senior VP of NASDAQ, VP of Compaq, GM, McDonnell Douglas, and Caterpillar. Many residents are now entered in a national business competition involving dental related business start ups. Sounds pretty fake.

"took the fall"...nice..gotta love the spin on that. well according to you they took the fall. according to the UNLV Board of Regents, CODA, Nevada Dental Association etc etc. they made tragic errors, took advantage of students and were unprofessional.

be careful when a school lists a set of "visiting faculty" or "guest lecturers" please every program has these. yes they are important in our training, but what matters more are part-time instructors that are in clinic at least once a week or biweekly who can diagnose and treat a case with you from start to finish. we all know that from dental school.

your comment on old boys club is laughable. when interviewed at UNC the director had some phenomenal things to say about Montefiore - a fairly new program. which by the way cannot and should not be compared to USN - Montefiore has prostho, gpr, OMFS, ortho, rotating endo and perio from NYU and Columbia, a craniofacial clinic, research, affiliation with albert einstein med school , etc.

the MBA program is middle to low-tier. if you want an MBA (do NOT need it UNLESS you plan on doing consulting, practice transitions, and if that's your cup of tea you're better off being an attorney). do it during during dental school (the MBA program will most likely be much better quality i.e. Upenn, columbia, BU the list goes on these are top tier)...and way more importantly don't let it interfere with clinical specialty training. it's just a distraction from the lack of patients at USN...carrot on a stick...

there's someone on here who interviewed there, may be on??: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539184
he/she's unbiased, long time sdn'er (yes they've posted more than 2 times and has only 1 account)...find him/her

 

[SFortho]

"took the fall"...nice..gotta love the spin on that. well according to you they took the fall. according to the UNLV Board of Regents, CODA, Nevada Dental Association etc etc. they made tragic errors, took advantage of students and were unprofessional.



there's someone on here who interviewed there, may be on??: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539184
he/she's unbiased, long time sdn'er (yes they've posted more than 2 times and has only 1 account)...find him/her

This is so funny!!!! It seems that SFiles is obsesssed with bad-mouthing this university and its director!!! Dude, what's your beef? Your personal attacks are becoming so transparent that anyone with half a brain can see right through them. I don't care either way, but do you have any proof of "board of regents, coda and nevada dental association" all agreeing with your point of view? If so, please share with us instead of this defamation of character you've made your mission in life. And if coda thought this director was so horrible, why would it acaredit another program that's run by him?
And I looked at the other thread you referred to. It's basically someone asking about the program, and again, shocking.... SFiles bashing it. Get a life dude....

Does anyone know how this program did on their site visit? Did they get a bunch of recommendations on things that weren't kosher and had to be fixed? Can someone share? the proof is in the pudding!!

Like other poeple have said, it's ridiculous to go by what others are saying. Go visit the program for yourself and make up your own mind, good or bad.

'nuff said.

and Sfiles, for the love of god, let it go and get some therapy man!