USC vs. Cedars Sinai vs UCLA

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USC vs. Cedars Sinai vs UCLA anesthesiology residency.

Can anyone comment on these three LA programs? I'm wondering about job prospects after completing residency at each of them, compared with the quality of life of residents. I know USC doesn't have insane hours for anesthesiology residents but I wonder how that affects their training and job prospects...

Thanks everybody for your help...

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Jazzman wrote this review for me last year (I've added my thoughts in blue for the programs you mentioned):

From my interview experiences, in terms of prestige: UCLA > UCSD > Cedars > USC > UCI.
My impression is UCLA>UCSD>UCI=USC>Cedars

UCLA -- Probably the "biggest name" anesthesia program in socal. Lots of good research opportunities and great location (very close to santa monica). Great facilities. It's a huge program which might be a plus or minus for you. My only issue with the program is that some of the residents I spoke to thought of themselves as 'slave labor' for the hospital. I didn't get that feeling (but I was only there for an interview day so who knows how it really is). The only other negative is that the bulk of their CV surgery department left the hospital and moved to Cedars Sinai.
I rotated here and loved the program. The residents work hard when compared to cush programs, but on average, they work 65 hrs a week (per PD)--not a ridiculous amount. I talked to other residents at other socal programs while they were starting their job search last winter, many of them said (without prompting) that UCLA residents have an easier time finding jobs b/c of the name. I'm not sure how true that is, but there is a healthy respect for this program especially in socal.

UCSD -- Very laid back medium sized program with some outstanding faculty. Residents were all really nice people and very social. The residents wished that they didn't have to travel around to different locations for their training (currently splitting time between the VA in La Jolla, main medical center in Hillcrest, and Thorton Hospital in UTC)…. Only about 15-20 min drive from each other. UTC and La Jolla are right next door. Weak ICU and peds experience. Main Medical center is getting old and needs some renovation. Fantastic regional program. I would have ranked this higher, but the residents weren't able to find jobs in SD because it's a small city.

Cedars -- What I would consider the hidden gem of socal anesthesia programs. Great location in Los Angeles with the best balance of clinical/didactic work. Cedars has a private practice anesthesia model in the department (about 150 anesthesiologists in the group, 40 of which teach). They teach because they love it. Program is like a family. They just increased in size from 4 to 8 residents per year so obviously this is a program on the rise (still a smaller sized program though). The faculty are insanely well connected and current residents landed some of the top fellowships for CV and Regional in the country (Cleveland Clinic, Cornell, and Northwestern I believe). Very strong OB anesthesia (I will actually be doing my OB rotation at Cedars because USC doesn't have enough). The UCLA CV group transferred to Cedars so now there are more hearts than you can shake a stick at. Downsides: No computer-based EMR in the ORs, doesn't carry the same name recognition as UCLA, newer program.
Did a rotation here too. I thought the program was ok. On paper, it's great. Tons of complicated cases, the opportunity to work in an academic/private setting, LOTS of didactics (+ or -). The PD and Chair do a great job selling the program and helping the residents land good fellowships. But, in my opinion, this program does not give you enough autonomy. The attendings are always 1:1 with residents and they're always there. That's cool when you're a CA-1 just getting started, but by the time you're a CA-2/3...not as much. My overall impression was the training was not as strong as the other southern california programs.

USC -- my future home so I might be a bit biased but I'll tell you how it really is. Great facilities with a brand new hospital. Location is close to downtown on the east side (not greatest area). Residents are all really laid back and like spending time with each other. The only big con is the SRNA training program and how pro-CRNA the chair of the department is (he is the chair of the SRNA training program too). The program is very well connected to different private practice groups in the area.
Great combination of autonomy, teaching, cases, and hours. Cases don't start after 3pm at county, many times the afternoon cases get rescheduled because the am case runs long and the residents end up free as early as 11am. I really liked the program except for a few things: the SNRA program, not categorical, and USC's reputation in the community. But, in the end they all end up finding jobs/fellowships somewhere so I'm not sure how much it really matters.

UCI -- brand new hospital with some very nice faculty. I wasn't crazy about the location since its right off the freeway in Orange, CA….. yeah, its not in Irvine. Had some issues within the department a few years ago so it has been "reborn" recently after the scandel. The chair/PD are both huge advocates for the residents. Have good relations with CRNAs on staff. Hospital is amazing and everything is state of the art. Residents seem like a family and like spending time with each other. Downsides: location isn't great, have to go do CV at an offsite location.
 
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UCSD -- Very laid back medium sized program with some outstanding faculty. Residents were all really nice people and very social. The residents wished that they didn't have to travel around to different locations for their training (currently splitting time between the VA in La Jolla, main medical center in Hillcrest, and Thorton Hospital in UTC)…. Only about 15-20 min drive from each other. UTC and La Jolla are right next door. Weak ICU and peds experience. Main Medical center is getting old and needs some renovation. Fantastic regional program. I would have ranked this higher, but the residents weren't able to find jobs in SD because it’s a small city.

As a current CA-3 at UCSD I just want to clear up a few things stated above so applicants have an accurate picture.

- I wouldn't say that having to travel to different sites is much of a problem. After you're first few months as a CA-1 (when you travel for lectures) you rarely if ever need to travel between sites in the same day. Even then SD traffic pales in comparison to LA. I actually think having multiple clinical sites is good in the long run as each location has its own vibe and pt/case mix so you get used to different environments which you are likely to encounter in PP as groups do tend to cover multiple sites.

-Our ICU eperience is improving as this has been a big focus of the department over the last few years. We have added some great ICU faculty and now cover 3 different ICU's in a consultant role (trauma/SICU, Neuro, CV). 2 of my classmates have secured good ICU fellowships for next year (Stanford and Columbia).

-Peds is weak only in the sense that when not on your peds rotations you rarely do peds cases. San Diego as a city is just set up so that pretty much all peds go to the childrens hospital (which is a major childrens hospital and now level 1 peds trauma center). When at childrens you get to do pretty much whichever cases you want and you do alot of them, like 110-120/month. After 2 months at childrens I feel very comfortable taking care of kids.

-Job prospects: First off, I wouldn't really call SD a small city at a population of 1.3mil. There are however relatively few options for PP jobs as there is 1 very large well established group of over 200 docs that covers the majority of SD area hopsitals. There are also a few other smaller groups and Kaiser. Every year our residents and fellows who want to stay in SD have landed good jobs in all local practices. We have a strong alumi network in socal (as well as the PacNW and AZ) and our grads are coveted by local groups. The one grad I can think of who did not land his job of choice didn't apply until very late in the year and the group was just not hiring at that time. Many of our grads also tend to stay on as faculty which I think says a lot about our program and how happy we are here. The poor payor mix in SD also makes academics a relatively more attractive option compared to other cities as the income differential is not as great here.

Overall I think we have an excellent program here, and I would rank it as my number 1 if I was applying again today. If anyone has any questions feel free to pm me.

With regards to the other programs mentioned, my impression is that UCLA is head and shoulders above the rest. In fact, in CA I would say there is (in no particular order) UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, UCSD >>>>> the rest.
 
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Thanks guys I really appreciate all the information. I have heard great thinks about ucla and ucsd. I'm thinking ucla would prob be the best program, but its a toss up between uscnand cedars. I don't know how i feel about the lack of autonomy that I have heard so much about. Seems like USC gets pretty good training from what I hear... It's all anecdotal and completely from USC residents, but they seem pretty happy and confident in their skills by the time they start ca3.

Cedars does seem to land better fellowships though, which could be a reflection of better training and better networking environment...
 
how tough is it to get into these programs if you are not a Cali resident?
Is Step 2 required prior to getting interviews?
 
I have read that UCSF wants to see your step 2 before you interview but that's the only one I have heard that about...
 
I have read that UCSF wants to see your step 2 before you interview but that's the only one I have heard that about...

Unless they recently changed it, I believe it's step 2 score before they make their rank list.
 
UCI -- brand new hospital with some very nice faculty. I wasn't crazy about the location since its right off the freeway in Orange, CA….. yeah, its not in Irvine. Had some issues within the department a few years ago so it has been "reborn" recently after the scandel. The chair/PD are both huge advocates for the residents. Have good relations with CRNAs on staff. Hospital is amazing and everything is state of the art. Residents seem like a family and like spending time with each other. Downsides: location isn't great, have to go do CV at an offsite location.

UC Irvine
# of Residents: ~40
Average # of hours per week: 65-70 hrs

Jazzman's comments on UCI are far off (not trying to attack you personally) and as a resident who graduated and still stays in touch with current residents I speak from 3 years of experience. This department is farrrr from "reborn." This is a WORK program and the average day starts at 6am and you usually gets out at 6-8pm daily Monday through Friday. If you add on a weekday or weekend call you'll reach around 70-80 hrs/week or more.

The Chair/PD are not resident advocates and PROFIT and image are the main motive at this institution - not resident education. And as a correction residents have to rotate out for many of the subspecialty fields to meet their numbers - this includes CV, pediatric and obstetrics - because the numbers are so low at UCI.

The attendings are VERY good (a notable bright spot) and try their hardest to teach despite intense pressures to produce. The attendings are very bright and work hard. They taught me a lot and make good anesthesiologists but the administrative problems at UCI are tough. Even with good attendings education is weak. Their is a culture of stress in this place because the department obsesses about starting cases on time to show hospital administrators even if it takes away learning opportunities or chances to do procedures for resident education or even talk over a complicated preop. Attendings are pressured to get patients in the room fast and start the case at all costs or they get reported. Nurses get bonuses for getting patients in the room in quickly and if a patient is delayed everything is reported to administrators. This has led to attendings and nurses bickering about what the cause of delay is and residents caught in the middle.

Results: Because teaching is poor in 2010-2011 three out of eight graduating 3rd years failed their board exam. Last year 2 residents were held back to prevent them from taking the boards and prevent them from failing because this would embarrass the residency program. The program boasts a 100% board passing rate for last year even though 2 residents were held back. :eek:

I had to clarify the comments and not allow future medical students from making an uninformed decision!!
 
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UC Irvine
# of Residents: ~40
Average # of hours per week: 65-70 hrs

Jazzman's comments on UCI are far off (not trying to attack you personally) and as a resident who graduated and still stays in touch with current residents I speak from 3 years of experience. This department is farrrr from "reborn." This is a WORK program and the average day starts at 6am and you usually gets out at 6-8pm daily Monday through Friday. If you add on a weekday or weekend call you'll reach around 70-80 hrs/week or more.

The Chair/PD are not resident advocates and PROFIT and image are the main motive at this institution - not resident education. And as a correction residents have to rotate out for many of the subspecialty fields to meet their numbers - this includes CV, pediatric and obstetrics - because the numbers are so low at UCI.

The attendings are VERY good (a notable bright spot) and try their hardest to teach despite intense pressures to produce. The attendings are very bright and work hard. They taught me a lot and make good anesthesiologists but the administrative problems at UCI are tough. Even with good attendings education is weak. Their is a culture of stress in this place because the department obsesses about starting cases on time to show hospital administrators even if it takes away learning opportunities or chances to do procedures for resident education or even talk over a complicated preop. Attendings are pressured to get patients in the room fast and start the case at all costs or they get reported. Nurses get bonuses for getting patients in the room in quickly and if a patient is delayed everything is reported to administrators. This has led to attendings and nurses bickering about what the cause of delay is and residents caught in the middle.

Results: Because teaching is poor in 2010-2011 three out of eight graduating 3rd years failed their board exam. Last year 2 residents were held back to prevent them from taking the boards and prevent them from failing because this would embarrass the residency program. The program boasts a 100% board passing rate for last year even though 2 residents were held back. :eek:

I had to clarify the comments and not allow future medical students from making an uninformed decision!!

If the above is true, then that is very unfortunate.
 
Yeah..does anyone else have any opinion regarding UCI? Cause it was one of my top choices going in
 
hmm any other opinions on these programs? what's everyone's take on harbor-UCLA?


it seems to have a mediocre reputation, but I have heard mixed things...
 
When I interviewed at harbor ~ 10 yrs ago, it was a big mess. The grand rounds was a bunch of FMG attendings arguing and not listening to each other. I'd like to hear how it is now.
 
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Can anyone (preferably attendings/private practitioners/CA-3s) comment on the reputation of graduates from Ucla vs USC? Do graduates from Ucla have a significant advantage when job hunting in California?
 
Can anyone (preferably attendings/private practitioners/CA-3s) comment on the reputation of graduates from Ucla vs USC? Do graduates from Ucla have a significant advantage when job hunting in California?

Yes
 
Can anyone (preferably attendings/private practitioners/CA-3s) comment on the reputation of graduates from Ucla vs USC? Do graduates from Ucla have a significant advantage when job hunting in California?

And also between USC and cedars
 
Hey there!

I am a current resident at UC Irvine and can shed a little light on our program. Since the hiring of our new Chair, Dr Kain the department and residency have been very stable and has taken some very big steps forward. We are currently in the middle of a 5 year (max) ACGME accredidation of our program. I can only attest to what goes on at UCI as I have not trained anywhere else, but I am receiving excellent training.

Our training is well rounded in the subspecialities, especially since this past year we started rotating at Kaiser Sunset (in Los Angeles for which the department provides housing) for our second month of hearts in the CA-2 year. Traditionally the in-house numbers for cardiac are low hence the off-site rotation. In the last 6 months we have also seen a large bump in Neurosurgical cases including tons of open aneurysm clippings. As for peds, the numbers here at UCI are low, hence going to CHLA for 2 months during CA-2 year gives us the necessary pediatrics numbers. Plus it allows us to mingle with the folks at CHLA for those interested in fellowship there (we matched 2 or our current CA-3s at CHLA for fellowship 2013-14). As of now we do not rotate at CHOC, and I am not aware of a timeframe for when (or if) we will. But I can assure you despite the distance going to CHLA is a well liked rotation by all of the residents. By the way, UCLA is sending residents to all these locations as well.

In previous years hours would range 45-55, and lately that has increased to 55-60/week with the increased OR volume and additional surgeons recently recruited. The residents here all work hard, but are a pretty close group, at 10-12 per class. And since things changed to a categorical program 3 years ago the familiarity with the program, the people, and the system makes for a smooth transition into CA-1 year.

We are getting some amazing training in simulation (every Monday the residents are there), surface ultrasound, a wellness program, a perioperative humanism program and lean-sigma training. We also started the surgical home program recently.

I hope that gives you a little more information on our program. Take a look at the slide presentation http://www.anesthesiology.uci.edu/education_residency.shtml
 
Any thoughts on UCLA from the current interview season?
 
I'd like to bump this thread and ask where Loma Linda falls in these rankings? We all went through application to medical school and pretty sure we mostly overlooked LLU if we weren't a SDA (because we knew that's what they'd do to us). But in terms of residency I know they are more open to applicants and as far as Anesthesiology it seems like residents are all super happy (at least my impression from reading SDN) and all seem to land solid jobs after training. Also the medical schools from which the new incoming year is coming from seems solid (although I can't see what average #s are for these guys), with only 1 DO and the rest US MDs from places like Mayo and UCLA.

So can someone tell me anything they know, preferably 1st hand, about Loma Linda anesthesiology. How would you rank it among the SoCal programs?
 
I'd like to bump this thread and ask where Loma Linda falls in these rankings? We all went through application to medical school and pretty sure we mostly overlooked LLU if we weren't a SDA (because we knew that's what they'd do to us). But in terms of residency I know they are more open to applicants and as far as Anesthesiology it seems like residents are all super happy (at least my impression from reading SDN) and all seem to land solid jobs after training. Also the medical schools from which the new incoming year is coming from seems solid (although I can't see what average #s are for these guys), with only 1 DO and the rest US MDs from places like Mayo and UCLA.

So can someone tell me anything they know, preferably 1st hand, about Loma Linda anesthesiology. How would you rank it among the SoCal programs?

Having the same question. Any update on the UCI situation would be appreciated.
 
hey does anybody have any more information/updates about UCI's program?
 
Isn't UCI a big advocate for the PSH (Dr. Zev Kain)? This may be a factor to consider depending on your perspective on the model.
 
USC vs. Cedars Sinai vs UCLA anesthesiology residency.

Can anyone comment on these three LA programs? I'm wondering about job prospects after completing residency at each of them, compared with the quality of life of residents. I know USC doesn't have insane hours for anesthesiology residents but I wonder how that affects their training and job prospects...

Thanks everybody for your help...

Go anywhere but cedars if you truly value your training. When you interview there the chief of anesthesia will say "our residents are better than any UC trained resident". They will talk about how many advanced cases they do. They will say "we always do 1:1 teaching in the or, because it's the best way, you see how poorly trained UC residents are because they are supervised 1:2".

They are very very good used car salesmen. In reality you Will get No autonomy. You will make no decisions. You will be completely coddled. You Will be brainwashed into thinking you're a competent anesthesiologist. When in reality you have been taught how to cut dangerous corners (that you don't even know are corners).

The reason they do 1:1 is not for your benefit as a resident. It is because cedars is completely non-academic (contrary to what they will tell you). The anesthesiologists are billing for the cases that they do individually. Cedars was built private practice first, with residency program much much later, and it shows.

The rank order list should go like this for socal 1)ucla 2) ucsd, 3)usc/uc Irvine, 4) Loma Linda 5) ucla harbor.

IF and only IF you have to be in LA, then rank cedars at the bottom.
 
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Go anywhere but cedars if you truly value your training. When you interview there the chief of anesthesia will say "our residents are better than any UC trained resident". They will talk about how many advanced cases they do. They will say "we always do 1:1 teaching in the or, because it's the best way, you see how poorly trained UC residents are because they are supervised 1:2".

If it's true, that's a ridiculous thing to say. If I heard that, I would ask him,

What percentage of the faculty were trained in 1:1 programs?

How many of their own faculty are UC trained? Do they all suck?
 
If it's true, that's a ridiculous thing to say. If I heard that, I would ask him,

What percentage of the faculty were trained in 1:1 programs?

How many of their own faculty are UC trained? Do they all suck?

I know your question is somewhat rhetorical, but...


Like I said, training 1:1 is not for the benefit of the resident. It is solely for billing purposes. They try to sell it like it's a good thing. It is not.

I can't answer how many attendings trained in 1:1 programs, because there are too few programs (any?) that exiSt.

But the chief will say "the 1:2 model is old and outdated, we are at the cutting edge of teaching." This will be followed by "just look at the way UCLA/UCSF residents are trained and the quality of their graduates. That place is poorly run and in shambles."

Then he will change the subject, with no further elaboration.
 
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Like I said, training 1:1 is not for the benefit of the resident. It is solely for billing purposes. They try to sell it like it's a good thing. It is not.

I can't answer how many attendings trained in 1:1 programs, because there are too few programs (any?) that exist like that and over 100 anesthesiologists in the cedars group.

The residents graduating from cedars all easily secure fellowships. You know why?Because almost all of them do a fellowship AT cedars. The only people that do leave cedars for fellowship are the ones doing a pediatric fellowship. And that is only because there is no ped fellowship at cedars.

People ranking this year can choose to believe me or or not. It doesn't matter to me. But like I've said before, I would never trust a cedars residency grad to take care of any of my loved ones.

I'm agreeing with you that 1:1 supervision throughout residency is not a good thing. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

It is much harder to become a confident, independent practitioner if you are spoon-fed, hand-held and watched like a hawk throughout your residency. You need the experience of saving your own ass and dealing with the close calls while the attending is away.
 
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I'm agreeing with you that 1:1 supervision throughout residency is not a good thing. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

It is much harder to become a confident, independent practitioner if you are spoon-fed, hand-held and watched like a hawk throughout your residency. You need the experience of saving your own ass and dealing with the close calls while the attending is away.

No I understand, I knew you were agreeing with me. I was just reiterating the point that they will try to sell the 1:1 supervision as a good thing. They will never tell the prospective resident the truth about why they do it 1:1.
 
No I understand, I knew you were agreeing with me. I was just reiterating the point that they will try to sell the 1:1 supervision as a good thing. They will never tell the prospective resident the truth about why they do it 1:1.

I'm a little confused. So do they get paid more if they say they are training residents? Also, the residents there have said that they do get left alone to do cases (besides the case starting, which is how it is everywhere). Is that not true? Wouldn't 1:1 teaching in the OR be beneficial?
 
I'm a little confused. So do they get paid more if they say they are training residents? Also, the residents there have said that they do get left alone to do cases (besides the case starting, which is how it is everywhere). Is that not true? Wouldn't 1:1 teaching in the OR be beneficial?

The attendings are paid on an hourly basis (actual time in the or). They are not paid based off of units. Thus, if an attending were simultaneously supervising two rooms that both lasted two hours, they would only get paid for those two hours. Who in their right mind would take more responsibility for the same pay? Newer graduates from other training programs are rarely if ever given residents.

I would bet anything, that if all of a sudden they started getting paid more for 1:2 supervision, that would be the new standard at cedars.


Theoretically 1:1 is better because there is more intra operative teaching. In practice the people who are given residents (generally more senior, on very good terms with the chief) are out of date and out of touch. These are people who have been doing private practice for years and years and have no idea how the speciality has changed (they would still be using ether, enflurane, and halothane if available). Now, there may be literally 1 or 2 decent attendings, but by and far the vast majority have no business teaching residents.

I would give specifics about what is being taught to those residents, but I've had discussions with other attendings from cedars, and I'm afraid I would not be able to maintain anonymity.
 
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I was googling and randomly came across this and felt the need to reply. As someone who more recently finished training at Cedars, I can say that your impressions are likely based off of whatever short experience you had there. Since you are not one of the current residents there, I'm not really sure how you are any kind of expert as to what really goes on with the training program. I'm sorry you had what sounds like a bad experience.

To actually answer the questions brought up with accuracy, 1- the attendings do not get paid anything extra to teach. 2- The attendings are present for both induction and extubation, just like they SHOULD BE everywhere else. Any additional time spent in the OR with you is based on your skill and whether they have anything to teach you or feedback to give; so as a CA-3, you are doing your own cases and often inducing and extubating with the attending just on the other side of the OR door, which is as independent as you can get ANYWHERE for residency. So I have to ask, what does autonomy really mean then? If you are curious as to my own transition to doing cases by myself as an attending, I can assure you I was completely comfortable- this includes doing cardiac cases without a cardiac fellowship! The benefit really to 1:1 teaching is honestly that you have NO excuse not to make educational activities, like board review. They also use this for everyone to attend conferences like WARC and ASA now.

Other things to touch on that should probably matter:
Boards passing rate: Dr Yumul has board review down, and she will prepare you to pass these with ease.
Fellowships- Cedars has every fellowship but pediatrics, and more fellows than anywhere in LA, so if you want to stay as a fellow it is possible and much easier to get the position than someone applying from elsewhere
Connections for jobs (or fellowships elsewhere) at the end of training- Because the attendings come from different programs, and there are over 150 anesthesiologists at Cedars, you have so many connections around the country! Some of the attendings hold high leadership positions in national and international organizations, which should not be discounted; this is really what made obtaining my dream job easy. Add to that all the different fellows you will meet each year, and it truly expands your network.

I had no struggle getting either the fellowship or the job I desired in the end, and I am truly grateful for the training I had. If you have any other questions regarding my experience training there, feel free to ask. I interviewed around the country and had ranked it #1 when I made my rank list because I felt like I fit in well with the attendings and residents and trusted that they'd prepare me to be an excellent anesthesiologist.
 
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Rank #1 compared to what?

I ranked ~15 different programs... Ones that I can recall and in no particular order- UCLA, Pittsburgh, Michigan, Loma Linda, UCLA Harbor, Miami, GW, Case Western, MCW, UVA, and honestly it has been awhile, so it'd take more time searching emails to come up with the rest haha. I had no desire to end up in certain places, like NYC or Boston, so I didn't bother applying to those programs. Hope that helps
 
I ranked ~15 different programs... Ones that I can recall and in no particular order- UCLA, Pittsburgh, Michigan, Loma Linda, UCLA Harbor, Miami, GW, Case Western, MCW, UVA, and honestly it has been awhile, so it'd take more time searching emails to come up with the rest haha. I had no desire to end up in certain places, like NYC or Boston, so I didn't bother applying to those programs. Hope that helps

Out of pure and utter curiosity (already matched), why did you rank Cedars over UCLA? I interviewed at UCLA and thought it was an excellent, top-flight program.
 
Honestly, it's all a personal preference. I had rotated at both places as a medical student and felt like the residents at Cedars had an easier time getting the fellowships and jobs they wanted afterwards; but to be clear, this was an impression as a medical student, which can always be skewed. In the end, this remained true for me and my co-residents, as we all ended up where we wanted with ease, but that's not to say that people in other programs didn't get what they wanted as well. I have friends from all the different training programs in LA, and honestly, no matter where you go, you will be trained well and will end up finding a job, so don't worry. In the end, you should go where you feel is best for you.

In addition, I preferred the more intimate environment from belonging to a smaller class and having the more mandatory board review that Dr Yumul gives. I was over self-teaching and wanted someone to educate me well enough to pass with ease (background- I had PBL one year in med school and didn't like it because it felt like the blind leading the blind in my education, and it was not a very efficient way to learn for me). So that may be something that is more unique to the program compared to the others in LA, and again comes down to a very personal opinion based on how you learn and what type of environment you feel you will excel in.
 
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Honestly, it's all a personal preference. I had rotated at both places as a medical student and felt like the residents at Cedars had an easier time getting the fellowships and jobs they wanted afterwards; but to be clear, this was an impression as a medical student, which can always be skewed. In the end, this remained true for me and my co-residents, as we all ended up where we wanted with ease, but that's not to say that people in other programs didn't get what they wanted as well. I have friends from all the different training programs in LA, and honestly, no matter where you go, you will be trained well and will end up finding a job, so don't worry. In the end, you should go where you feel is best for you.

In addition, I preferred the more intimate environment from belonging to a smaller class and having the more mandatory board review that Dr Yumul gives. I was over self-teaching and wanted someone to educate me well enough to pass with ease (background- I had PBL one year in med school and didn't like it because it felt like the blind leading the blind in my education, and it was not a very efficient way to learn for me). So that may be something that is more unique to the program compared to the others in LA, and again comes down to a very personal opinion based on how you learn and what type of environment you feel you will excel in.

Thank you for the honest and personal answer. I appreciate it. Curiosity sated. :thumbup:
 
I was googling and randomly came across this and felt the need to reply. As someone who more recently finished training at Cedars, I can say that your impressions are likely based off of whatever short experience you had there. Since you are not one of the current residents there, I'm not really sure how you are any kind of expert as to what really goes on with the training program. I'm sorry you had what sounds like a bad experience.

To actually answer the questions brought up with accuracy, 1- the attendings do not get paid anything extra to teach. 2- The attendings are present for both induction and extubation, just like they SHOULD BE everywhere else. Any additional time spent in the OR with you is based on your skill and whether they have anything to teach you or feedback to give; so as a CA-3, you are doing your own cases and often inducing and extubating with the attending just on the other side of the OR door, which is as independent as you can get ANYWHERE for residency. So I have to ask, what does autonomy really mean then? If you are curious as to my own transition to doing cases by myself as an attending, I can assure you I was completely comfortable- this includes doing cardiac cases without a cardiac fellowship! The benefit really to 1:1 teaching is honestly that you have NO excuse not to make educational activities, like board review. They also use this for everyone to attend conferences like WARC and ASA now.

Other things to touch on that should probably matter:
Boards passing rate: Dr Yumul has board review down, and she will prepare you to pass these with ease.
Fellowships- Cedars has every fellowship but pediatrics, and more fellows than anywhere in LA, so if you want to stay as a fellow it is possible and much easier to get the position than someone applying from elsewhere
Connections for jobs (or fellowships elsewhere) at the end of training- Because the attendings come from different programs, and there are over 150 anesthesiologists at Cedars, you have so many connections around the country! Some of the attendings hold high leadership positions in national and international organizations, which should not be discounted; this is really what made obtaining my dream job easy. Add to that all the different fellows you will meet each year, and it truly expands your network.

I had no struggle getting either the fellowship or the job I desired in the end, and I am truly grateful for the training I had. If you have any other questions regarding my experience training there, feel free to ask. I interviewed around the country and had ranked it #1 when I made my rank list because I felt like I fit in well with the attendings and residents and trusted that they'd prepare me to be an excellent anesthesiologist.

Thanks for the review! What did you do your fellowship in? @MIwolverine
 
Hey guys,

I am a current fellow at Cedars and wanted to add my perspective to this discussion. I trained at a program in the Midwest and came here for fellowship. When I interviewed I had no clue about Cedars but felt like it was a good fit and decided to come here over offers I had from 4 nationally known programs. My year of fellowship has hands down been the best year of training I have ever had. Everyone from nursing staff to surgeons are generally very friendly, collegial and easy to get along with. People treat you like a physician here. The clinical volume is, as expected, very high. In addition to my subspecialty obligations I also moonlight as an attending at least once a week and take call as an attending multiple times a month. Thus I have interacted with other faculty as well as all the residents in a wide variety of situations. For those who are interested here are my thoughts on choosing to train at Cedars either as a clinical fellow or resident:

1. This is a hybrid medical center. Attending's are for the most part private practice and participate in the teaching programs of the institution. This allows for a great deal of autonomy for fellows. You have attending privileges as an attending when doing a fellowship here and as such are treated in that way. On call you will provide trauma care, provide airway and hemodynamic management in critically ill patients throughout the medical center and basically perfect your skills you learned as a resident with the benefit of some protection since you're a fellow with attending autonomy (while on call). I have been put in a wide variety of situations where there is no doubt I gained some insight and skill for my future practice as an anesthesiologist. That being said, there is always numerous attending's or other fellows you can call or who are in house to help you if you need it. Its a great way to ease into attending practice in my opinion.

2. As far as fellowships go, while this is an insanely upscale facility, they take care of every segment of society. You will be challenged every day and become an expert consultant at the end of it. The hidden gems of fellowship here are the opportunities you get to be a true consultant, not a technician. Surgeons will call you and ask for your evaluation. Other physicians and providers will look to you to partner with them in caring for patients. At the same time, the patients range from extremely demanding to those of limited means who have little insight into their disease. You will learn how to professionally partner with nurses, midlevel providers and physicians to provide safe and effective care regardless of the patient's background or attitude.

3. As far as coming here for residency goes...this is definitely a unique place. Attending's are 1:1 with the residents and there is mandatory protected academic time on a weekly basis. I can tell you that senior residents are treated very similar to how I was and are left alone in the OR. Junior residents are given a great deal of autonomy as well. As an example, I was a CA-2 when I began covering airways and codes. CA-1s here do this early on. And in a facility with an 8 story critical care building as well as the busiest ED in LA (as well as the highest acuity from what I am told) they do a great deal while on call. Just because they aren't required to sit in an OR while on call all night does not mean they are missing out on clinical learning and I guarantee when there is a transplant or trauma (which is basically every night) they are in those cases. Furthermore, as someone who came from a program where passing the board exam was "your responsibility" and I basically taught myself....I can tell you that having a program that views you as a trainee and not a free body to dump in the OR to do work under the guise of "clinical training" is refreshing. You could be able to intubate with your bare hand, do a subclavian while obtunded or get an IV in a 2000 lb jabba the hut...but if you fail your boards no one cares what you can do. So a program that provides a wide variety of clinical cases and exposes you to the full range of patients while at the same time providing u the space and guidance to learn what you are doing and why is a great program in my opinion and Cedars fits that model.

4. This is Cedars-Sinai....the resources at this place are out of this world. From free food all over the place and bagels + coffee in a very nice resident lounge every morning to nurses who actually respect what we do and help you when ur inducing or there are issues, you can't ask for a better training environment. I could go on and on about how nice this place is in comparison to where I trained or where my friends are doing fellowship. Food options are wide, there's a starbucks that you can use your meal card at. They have a coffee bean in their outpatient building that's a 1 minute walk across the plaza in addition to a deli and sandwich shop. Or you could just step across the street and go to really nice trendy places for lunch/dinner. I work a ton between my fellowship and moonlighting...its nice to be in a clean, modern, well equipped facility with lots of places to get a quick coffee or meal.

I am extremely happy about choosing to come here for fellowship. I have learned a great deal and am a better anesthesiologist. The department is fair, kind and protective of their own. The residents are great to work with and are well read (more than I was at their level). Dr. Wender and Dr. Yumul treat you like their kids and genuinely care about the well being and professional development of the residents and fellows. There are many great programs all over the country and I think they all offer great training and opportunities for professional growth. I would suggest that Cedars is a place that has a phenomenal clinical reputation, a wide ranging clinical program that affords anesthesia residents the opportunity to gain experience in bread and butter, high risk surgery and cutting edge procedures that are not available at many places. On top of that, they have the financial resources to provide trainees with a good stipend, great benefits and the ability to go to conferences/meetings without needing an act of congress to approve it and they have faculty who will be able to help you get a fellowship at top tier programs or jobs all across the western seaboard.
 
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Hey all, a co-fellow alerted me to some of the negative comments about Cedars and I feel a need to respond. The post above is quite accurate and thorough so will just elaborate on areas not discussed. I trained at the top ivy in NYC and came out to train at Cedars for pain after interviewing at all the top Northeast and California programs (had even been offered a spot out of the match at the other major LA program). As far as the pain medicine fellowship, the outpatient facility has arguably the highest volume of patients and procedures of any fellowship program in the country. The inpatient pain program is the largest in the country and provides excellent training in a truly multidisciplinary environment.

In addition to the strong pain medicine training and opportunity to practice as an attending anesthesiologist, the oral practice with Dr. Yumul, Dr Wender and Dr. Webb was phenomenal. I can tell you with absolutely certainty that the actual oral boards were a breeze after attending numerous oral board practice sessions throughout the year.

Lastly, the case load at Cedars is excellent and the residency is expanding. Dr. Yumul and Dr. Wender actively work to recruit faculty throughout the country who they believe will contribute to the residency. Should you decide to train at Cedars, you will be very well positioned for private practice or preferably acceptance to your #1 choice of fellowship.
 
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@ultrasoundboss @regional2016 Thank you for your replies/reviews. It has been said many times that Cedars appears to have everything in the making of a great program (location, case loads, hospital reputation, fellowship opportunities, etc) however, it's been shown on NRMP Match Data that Cedars does not fully match their class and spots are filled by SOAP. This usually correlates to perspective of program quality/training among prospective students. Given that Cedars appears to have everything on paper, why do you think this is the case? Programs like Loma Linda, UCI and USC (not to mention big names in Cali) fill, why not Cedars? Thank you
 
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@ultrasoundboss @regional2016 Thank you for your replies/reviews. It has been said many times that Cedars appears to have everything in the making of a great program (case loads, hospital reputation, fellowship opportunities, etc) however, it's been shown on NRMP Match Data that Cedars does not fully match their class and spots are filled by SOAP. This usually correlates to perspective of program quality/training among prospective students. Given that Cedars appears to have everything on paper, why do you think this is the case? Programs like Loma Linda, UCI and USC (not to mention big names in Cali) fill, why not Cedars? Thank you

As I'm just a fellow here, Im not intimately aware of the match data for the last few years. However I can say for this past match Cedars filled all spots in the match. They expanded the program and two additional spots were available but not in time for interview season, so they were filled in SOAP. In general, Cedars is a newer program than the other bigger names and as such does not have the same name recognition perhaps as an Anesthesia program that other large centers have. What I will say is that the incoming President of the California Society of Anesthesiologists is an attending here and we have numerous other influential and skilled attendings.

Academia is under great threat. The model of lower production in exchange for training future physicians is ending all over the country. Cedars is uniquely positioned to weather this storm given the payor mix, donor pool and established clinical reputation throughout the west coast. I think its a great place to do residency or fellowship.
 
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Are the attending really happy at Cedar's? I applied there for a job and I just got a slimy feeling from your chair. I've heard it's a tiered partnership track and the junior attending get treated like scum and therefore there is a huge attrition rate there.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Are the attending really happy at Cedar's? I applied there for a job and I just got a slimy feeling from your chair. I've heard it's a tiered partnership track and the junior attending get treated like scum and therefore there is a huge attrition rate there.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Never underestimate the value of a gut feeling.
 
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@ultrasoundboss @regional2016 Thank you for your replies/reviews. It has been said many times that Cedars appears to have everything in the making of a great program (case loads, hospital reputation, fellowship opportunities, etc) however, it's been shown on NRMP Match Data that Cedars does not fully match their class and spots are filled by SOAP. This usually correlates to perspective of program quality/training among prospective students. Given that Cedars appears to have everything on paper, why do you think this is the case? Programs like Loma Linda, UCI and USC (not to mention big names in Cali) fill, why not Cedars? Thank you

I interviewed here this past season -- really liked the program and drank the kool aid, but as mentioned above, got somewhat of a "slimy" feeling from the Chair. He's a cool guy, but he spent most of the interview hating on the other university programs, which left a sour aftertaste. Ended up choosing another place.
 
hey does anybody have any more information/updates about UCI's program?

Hi! I am a rising CA-2 at UCI and would be happy to answer any questions anyone has about the program. Sorry, I know this is a bit off the thread topic, but since it was asked twice I thought I'd provide some info about UCI. In short, it is an excellent program, and I would definitely come here again if I were to do things over. To be honest, the vast majority of our residents do not read or post to SDN. In perusing through SDN one day a while back (while procrastinating for board study), I was surprised to find that the information about UCI anesthesia on SDN is pretty outdated and inaccurate, which is why I decided to post. However, it looks like another resident beat me to the punch and there is a very detailed (and accurate) description of our program here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/uci-anesthesia.960834/

A few things I would add to this:

1) Atmosphere: For me personally, I felt that the quality of clinical training was going to be similar at most of the places where I interviewed, which were top 20 programs, mostly on the west coast, some mid west, and some east coast. I therefore ranked primarily by location and by the atmosphere of the program. I've only rotated at one other institution so it is somewhat hard to compare, but I would say that UCI is on the whole a very benign program. The culture is like a big, sometimes dysfunction, but mostly happy family. That includes the nurses, residents, attendings, fellows, OR techs, and residents from other services. The overall vibe at UCI is warm and friendly, which is the main reason why I chose it for residency. Condescension and ego are not well-tolerated here. I usually ask the fellows and new attendings how UCI compares to their home institutions and the overwhelming sentiment is that they are surprised by how much happier people are at UCI. Now that said, are there sometimes tiffs between nurses and residents? Do residents complain about random stuff? Of course! All the time! But overall, I'd say there is way more joking and laughing between nurses and residents and attendings than fighting.

2) Support: There has been a lot of change in the administration of the anesthesia department with Dr. Kain leaving and Dr. Ahn taking over as program director. Having lived through the change, I have to say that we as residents are pretty insulated from those changes and I barely noticed the difference. Both our previous and current program director have been extremely supportive, always prompting us for input on how we think residency is going and implementing changes based on our feedback. For example, at our winter retreat we said we wanted more intraop teaching. A few months later, there is now a button that we click on the operation board website to acknowledge when intraop teaching has taken place. This serves to ensure that it happens and give a little nudge to those attendings who are not doing enough of it. So far it has been very effective. At the beginning of our monthly 4U didactics days, we have a "Chair's corner" where we basically vent directly to the chair, Dr. Engwall, who is extremely responsive, very down to earth and approachable. The support at UCI is outstanding.

3) The things we lack: Transplants and research. That said, if you want to do research you can definitely find a meaningful project (or two or three) to publish within your 4 years here. There are a small handful of faculty who are very research-oriented who want nothing more than to help you find a research project and publish. Coming from a research heavy medical school, however, I do have to say that those opportunities are much fewer here. But the "competition" for those research projects is also a lot less here, so in the end, it is still pretty easy to find a research project (we actually have an internal website that lists all the available projects and there are always empty spots). I honestly think this would only affect those residents who want to publish 10-20 papers before you graduate -- although possible, it would be much more difficult here than at a research heavy institution. Bottom line, if you want to do some research but are not a research fanatic, you will find ample opportunities to publish here. There is also a research track available in your CA-3 year, which I believe extends your residency by a few months, but gives time to do even more substantial research. Regarding transplants, we only do kidney transplants. Yes, it would be nice to have exposure to other transplants. What we miss out in transplants I think we make up for in trauma, as we do become pretty proficient at trauma by the end of our training. And if you really love transplants you will need to do a fellowship anyway which is where you will get the bulk of that experience.

The bottom line for ANY anesthesia program is this -- does it place you into the fellowships and jobs you want. UCI has outstanding fellowship placements year after year and our residents regularly get the jobs that they want in the locations they want. In the couple of years I have been here, I have not heard of a single resident being unhappy with their job or fellowship placement. Our recent fellowship placements are listed here: http://www.anesthesiology.uci.edu/education_residency_graduates.shtml. This year I know for a fact that our residents so far have all gotten their #1 fellowship choices, having interviewed at all of the top "name brand" programs in their specialties, and those who have looked for jobs have all found jobs they are very happy with (both fellows and residents). Honestly, that is the only testimony that matters.
 
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