USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

[Advance]

How many more years of this thread before the opinions turn unanimous? The bar just keeps getting pushed. Like I've said the last few years, at one point 300k was too much, now only a few years later on this same board 500k-600k is being talked about the same way. If anything, spending the last 8 years here the one thing I learned is that the perspective of debt is relative. Each year it goes up and magically, as long as the debt load isn't in the same bracket as the 5 most expensive programs, and all of a sudden it's a tolerable number lol.

This is so true lol

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[Cold Front]

How many more years of this thread before the opinions turn unanimous? The bar just keeps getting pushed. Like I've said the last few years, at one point 300k was too much, now only a few years later on this same board 500k-600k is being talked about the same way. If anything, spending the last 8 years here the one thing I learned is that the perspective of debt is relative. Each year it goes up and magically, as long as the debt load isn't in the same bracket as the 5 most expensive programs, and all of a sudden it's a tolerable number lol.

500-600k is the new average. The ADA will tell us the number is closer to 300k by including people with military scholarships and students who won’t take out loans due to their parents wallets, other financial support, etc.

Opinions against the debt is almost unanimous for the practicing dentists (except maybe @charlestweed), but the naive pre-dents don’t know any better. The average debt typically goes up 100k every 5 years, so a lot of new grads will own 700-900k by 2030. A new breed of pre-dents will be ok with that.

 

[GoDental101]

500-600k is the new average. The ADA will tell us the number is closer to 300k by including people with military scholarships and students who won’t take out loans due to their parents wallets, other financial support, etc.

Opinions against the debt is almost unanimous for the practicing dentists (except maybe @charlestweed), but the naive pre-dents don’t know any better. The average debt typically goes up 100k every 5 years, so a lot of new grads will own 700-900k by 2030. A new breed of pre-dents will be ok with that.

So true haha

 

[charlestweed]

Lp

500-600k is the new average. The ADA will tell us the number is closer to 300k by including people with military scholarships and students who won’t take out loans due to their parents wallets, other financial support, etc.

Opinions against the debt is almost unanimous for the practicing dentists (except maybe @charlestweed), but the naive pre-dents don’t know any better. The average debt typically goes up 100k every 5 years, so a lot of new grads will own 700-900k by 2030. A new breed of pre-dents will be ok with that.

Yes, except me and some fairly recent grad dentists who came on here and said that they only work 4 days or less a wk. Since they only work 4 days, this means that they haven’t yet maximized their earning potential and they don’t seem to have any issue with paying back their student loans, which are a lot more than what I owed.

Even at $1million in debt, one should still be ok as long as he/she is willing to do whatever it takes to bring home at least $300k/year….and lives like a medical residents for the next 3-4 years to cut the student loan in half. But if a student is not willing to work like that and is pessimistic about his own ability to make $300k/year, then don’t pursue dentistry. Since $1million in debt is a serious amount of debt, one has to act responsibly. With that much loan, working 4 days/wk is irresponsible....he shouldn't blame anyone but himself. If not dentistry (and medical schools are too hard to get in), then what other career options? I am sorry I don’t have the answer for you because I think dentistry (especially orthodontics) is still one of the best healthcare professions out there. For you guys, 4th year student out there, you can’t just stop at the bio/biochem degree, that you are about to earn in a few months, because it is pretty much a useless degree.

If you are content with the base salary of $500-600 a day for the rest of your life, then dentistry is not for you. WIthout any ambition, it's hard to succeed in life even if you pick another career option.

And I would only recommend this dental profession to the traditional students (3rd or 4th year college students), who will finish dental school at 26 (or younger). I would not recommend this to older applicants because they have fewer years to work and they may have some physical problems (due to old age) like back pain, carpal tunnel, sciatica, low energy level, high blood pressure etc. If you are an older applicant, you need to have some saving money (from your previous jobs) that will help you pay for part of your tuition.

 

[Cold Front]

Even at $1million in debt, one should still be ok as long as he/she is willing to do whatever it takes to bring home at least $300k/year….

You are saying it’s ok to carry “$1M” debt. That’s just crazy! How about $1.5M? $2M? Are they ok too?

Future income is NOT guaranteed. 300k/yr pre-tax is not just sitting somewhere for a dentist to get it. There is a lot of effort and consistency that goes into it, year after year. If you take $200k/yr home after taxes, 50% of that goes towards the $1M debt service. You are left with $100k.... Can you pay mortgage, have a family with full health insurance, have decent savings, a car, etc with $8k/month in California or in a big city? It’s a stretch. No accountant would approve it. Unless you marry another dentist, which is a 10% chance for most dentists.

 

[charlestweed]

You are saying it’s ok to carry “$1M” debt. That’s just crazy! How about $1.5M? $2M? Are they ok too?

Yes, that’s how much my wife and I owed ($450k student loan + 380k home loan + 120k practice loan + 55k credit card debt) and our combined income was in the low $300k. I’ve repeatedly shared this personal experience on several of my posts. Not only did we do ok with this income amount, we (with the help of my sister) also bought my dad a Lexus ES300, helped our parents $1000/month for their home mortage…..and now, they ask us to give them less, $700 a month, because their house was paid off.

For $1.5 million in total debt, you would need to make at least $400-450k a year. For $2 million in total debt, you would need to make over half a million dollars because that’s how much we owed when we purchased our latest primary residence house for $1.7 million in 2006. I could have worked less and bought a smaller house but I wanted a big house. America offers me the kind of opportunity, that no other countries can, so why not grab it?

Future income is NOT guaranteed. 300k/yr pre-tax is not just sitting somewhere for a dentist to get it. There is a lot of effort and consistency that goes into it, year after year. If you take $200k/yr home after taxes, 50% of that goes towards the $1M debt service. You are left with $100k.... Can you pay mortgage, have a family with full health insurance, have decent savings, a car, etc with $8k/month in California or in a big city? It’s a stretch. No accountant would approve it. Unless you marry another dentist, which is a 10% chance for most dentists.

That's right...a lot of effort year after year. It’s not easy. I’ve never said becoming a millionaire is easy. That’s why I’ve always preached hard work. Even the very successful dentist owners, who are at their peak peformance, still have to continue to work hard to keep their patients happy. Many of them can’t take a vacation that is longer than 1 week. That’s because when the dentist stops showing his/her patients that he cares for them, they’ll leave him/her for another dentist. I am sure you know this since you are the owner yourself. My wife is at the point where she doesn’t care anymore and that’s why she has lost most of the referring dentists. That’s why she only has enough patients to work 1.5 days/week. But that’s ok because she has zero debt.

Like you said before, most don’t want to work that hard. That’s why most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That’s why the percentage of successful people in America is so small. The only way to get out of this poor lifestyle is to work hard early (when you are still young and healthy) to pay off all your debts ASAP. Once you reach that point, a recession, inflation, another pandemic similar to Covid, or high gas prices won’t matter much. If you are in your 50s and you still have to worry about any of these disasters, it’s probably too late. That’s why I don’t recommend denstistry to older non-traditional students, especially now because of high student loan debt. Today new grads will need to work at least 4-5 years longer than us, older grads, in order to catch up with us.

....Unless you marry another dentist, which is a 10% chance for most dentists.

Yup, that was a part of my plan too. When I was a single guy, I told myself that my future wife has to be a dentist/doctor/pharmacist/optometrist.....or at least an engineer. During my dental school years, I went to a lot of parties that were hosted by other nearby health professional schools so I could meet a girl of my dream. I wanted to become rich fast. Marrying a rich girl was one of the easiest ways to accomplish this. LOL. Having double income is definitely better.

 

[D1Bound]

Lp

Yes, except me and some fairly recent grad dentists who came on here and said that they only work 4 days or less a wk. Since they only work 4 days, this means that they haven’t yet maximized their earning potential and they don’t seem to have any issue with paying back their student loans, which are a lot more than what I owed.

Even at $1million in debt, one should still be ok as long as he/she is willing to do whatever it takes to bring home at least $300k/year….and lives like a medical residents for the next 3-4 years to cut the student loan in half. But if a student is not willing to work like that and is pessimistic about his own ability to make $300k/year, then don’t pursue dentistry. Since $1million in debt is a serious amount of debt, one has to act responsibly. With that much loan, working 4 days/wk is irresponsible....he shouldn't blame anyone but himself. If not dentistry (and medical schools are too hard to get in), then what other career options? I am sorry I don’t have the answer for you because I think dentistry (especially orthodontics) is still one of the best healthcare professions out there. For you guys, 4th year student out there, you can’t just stop at the bio/biochem degree, that you are about to earn in a few months, because it is pretty much a useless degree.

If you are content with the base salary of $500-600 a day for the rest of your life, then dentistry is not for you. WIthout any ambition, it's hard to succeed in life even if you pick another career option.

And I would only recommend this dental profession to the traditional students (3rd or 4th year college students), who will finish dental school at 26 (or younger). I would not recommend this to older applicants because they have fewer years to work and they may have some physical problems (due to old age) like back pain, carpal tunnel, sciatica, low energy level, high blood pressure etc. If you are an older applicant, you need to have some saving money (from your previous jobs) that will help you pay for part of your tuition.

Too many people are going into dentistry that just shouldn't be here. I had a female tell me she wants to go into ortho and then open several practices because she doesn't want to work that much. Why would you specialize when you're already thinking of not practicing? I don't understand

 

[2TH MVR]

I wanted to become rich fast.

I give you credit for knowing what you want and working hard to get there.

Here's a chapter from a book titled "The Happiness Equation" author Neil Pasricha. I love this little story.

The classic tale of the Mexican fisherman.



Join nowSign in

​

This image reminds me of this story shared in the book "The Happiness Equation" by Neil Pasricha. (Read it if you haven't)
The story is about the Brazilian fisherman & the businessman.
"There was once a businessman who was sitting by the beach in a small Brazilian village.
As he sat, he saw a Brazilian fisherman rowing a small boat towards the shore having caught quite few big fish.
The businessman was impressed and asked the fisherman, “How long does it take you to catch so many fish?”
The fisherman replied, “Oh, just a short while.”
“Then why don’t you stay longer at sea and catch even more?” The businessman was astonished.
“This is enough to feed my whole family,” the fisherman said.
The businessman then asked, “So, what do you do for the rest of the day?”
The fisherman replied, “Well, I usually wake up early in the morning, go out to sea and catch a few fish, then go back and play with my kids. In the afternoon, I take a nap with my wife, and evening comes, I join my buddies in the village for a drink — we play guitar, sing and dance throughout the night.”
The businessman offered a suggestion to the fisherman.
“I am a PhD in business management. I could help you to become a more successful person. From now on, you should spend more time at sea and try to catch as many fish as possible. When you have saved enough money, you could buy a bigger boat and catch even more fish. Soon you will be able to afford to buy more boats, set up your own company, your own production plant for canned food and distribution network. By then, you will have moved out of this village and to Sao Paulo, where you can set up HQ to manage your other branches.”
The fisherman continues, “And after that?”
The businessman laughs heartily, “After that, you can live like a king in your own house, and when the time is right, you can go public and float your shares in the Stock Exchange, and you will be rich.”
The fisherman asks, “And after that?”
The businessman says, “After that, you can finally retire, you can move to a house by the fishing village, wake up early in the morning, catch a few fish, then return home to play with kids, have a nice afternoon nap with your wife, and when evening comes, you can join your buddies for a drink, play the guitar, sing and dance throughout the night!”


Don't get me wrong. I also enjoy monetary things, but I also know what is important in my life.

 

[DDS9994]

How many more years of this thread before the opinions turn unanimous? The bar just keeps getting pushed. Like I've said the last few years, at one point 300k was too much, now only a few years later on this same board 500k-600k is being talked about the same way. If anything, spending the last 8 years here the one thing I learned is that the perspective of debt is relative. Each year it goes up and magically, as long as the debt load isn't in the same bracket as the 5 most expensive programs, and all of a sudden it's a tolerable number lol.

Cold front first posted back in 2012 abiut USC at 114, here we are at 162 and going up. IT seems like we will be at 1 million plus easily soon, and some will still justify the cost and say its possible you just have to work more days, I mean if 6 days was what was needed for CharlesTweed back in the early 2000s, heck we are running out of days a week to work here, we only got 7.

 

[charlestweed]

Too many people are going into dentistry that just shouldn't be here. I had a female tell me she wants to go into ortho and then open several practices because she doesn't want to work that much. Why would you specialize when you're already thinking of not practicing? I don't understand

I think she what she meant to say was she wants to work hard right after graduation (by opening multiple offices) so she won’t have to work that much later in her life. This is everybody’s (not just dentist’s and orthodontist’s) ultimate goal…..make more (or the same) and work less. It’s not uncommon for an orthodontist to open multiple offices. That’s because an ortho can see high volume of patients in a day and only needs to work a few days a month. In order to keep him/herself busy and to maximize the earning potential, he/she needs to open more offices.

The process of opening multiple offices requires a lot of effort and takes a long time to accomplish. Your female friend just quickly summarized what she would do after graduation.....it could take 10+ years. First, you need to work as associate to earn enough money before you can open your first office. Your first office then has to earn enough income before you can open a 2nd office and a 3rd office. Otherwise, the banks won’t loan you the money.

 

[charlestweed]

I give you credit for knowing what you want and working hard to get there.

Here's a chapter from a book titled "The Happiness Equation" author Neil Pasricha. I love this little story.

The classic tale of the Mexican fisherman.



Join nowSign in

​

This image reminds me of this story shared in the book "The Happiness Equation" by Neil Pasricha. (Read it if you haven't)
The story is about the Brazilian fisherman & the businessman.
"There was once a businessman who was sitting by the beach in a small Brazilian village.
As he sat, he saw a Brazilian fisherman rowing a small boat towards the shore having caught quite few big fish.
The businessman was impressed and asked the fisherman, “How long does it take you to catch so many fish?”
The fisherman replied, “Oh, just a short while.”
“Then why don’t you stay longer at sea and catch even more?” The businessman was astonished.
“This is enough to feed my whole family,” the fisherman said.
The businessman then asked, “So, what do you do for the rest of the day?”
The fisherman replied, “Well, I usually wake up early in the morning, go out to sea and catch a few fish, then go back and play with my kids. In the afternoon, I take a nap with my wife, and evening comes, I join my buddies in the village for a drink — we play guitar, sing and dance throughout the night.”
The businessman offered a suggestion to the fisherman.
“I am a PhD in business management. I could help you to become a more successful person. From now on, you should spend more time at sea and try to catch as many fish as possible. When you have saved enough money, you could buy a bigger boat and catch even more fish. Soon you will be able to afford to buy more boats, set up your own company, your own production plant for canned food and distribution network. By then, you will have moved out of this village and to Sao Paulo, where you can set up HQ to manage your other branches.”
The fisherman continues, “And after that?”
The businessman laughs heartily, “After that, you can live like a king in your own house, and when the time is right, you can go public and float your shares in the Stock Exchange, and you will be rich.”
The fisherman asks, “And after that?”
The businessman says, “After that, you can finally retire, you can move to a house by the fishing village, wake up early in the morning, catch a few fish, then return home to play with kids, have a nice afternoon nap with your wife, and when evening comes, you can join your buddies for a drink, play the guitar, sing and dance throughout the night!”


Don't get me wrong. I also enjoy monetary things, but I also know what is important in my life.

You are right. There are also other important things in life than money. My family is very important to me. It warms my heart every time I come to visit my parents and see them enjoying their retirement at their own home that was fully paid off. We spent $20k to fix their house's roof....and another $15k to remodel the bathroom so my mom, who has Parkingson, can get in and out of the shower easier. The thing that I appreciate the most about my wife is she treats my parents as if they were blood related to her. She regularly drives them to see their doctors while I am at work. It warms my heart every time I come home to see our kids having a good life……growing up in a comfortable environment with good friends and teachers. When I still had debt, I always had the fear that something bad may happen to me and I could no longer take care of my family. I have a few friends who can’t work (due to an illness) or suddenly passed away and they are my age. Now all the debts are paid off, I feel very relieved. Work is now my hobby. I just have to keep on working because I don’t have a lot of hobbies. Staying home all day is boring. Gardening is too hot. Eating out all the time will make me fat.

 

[charlestweed]

Cold front first posted back in 2012 abiut USC at 114, here we are at 162 and going up. IT seems like we will be at 1 million plus easily soon, and some will still justify the cost and say its possible you just have to work more days, I mean if 6 days was what was needed for CharlesTweed back in the early 2000s, heck we are running out of days a week to work here, we only got 7.

If you work, work, work and but also keep spending your money, then 7 days/wk is still not enough to pay the loan even if it’s only $100k. You have to control your spending while paying off debt…..start with paying off the smaller loan first, instead of buying a BMW. When the debt is at a sustainable level (ie half the what you originally owed) and when you realize your income is also at a stable level, you can start investing on other things to help you become rich fast. Most rich dentists don’t get rich from practicing dentistry alone. They invest.

People keep saying there are a ton of ways that money can easily be made. And when I asked what other career option? They couldn't even name one. Oh, don't tell me a plumber makes more money than a dentist.

 

[LFA20]

If you work, work, work and but also keep spending your money, then 7 days/wk is still not enough to pay the loan even if it’s only $100k. You have to control your spending while paying off debt…..start with paying off the smaller loan first, instead of buying a BMW. When the debt is at a sustainable level (ie half the what you originally owed) and when you realize your income is also at a stable level, you can start investing on other things to help you become rich fast. Most rich dentists don’t get rich from practicing dentistry alone. They invest.

People keep saying there are a ton of ways that money can easily be made. And when I asked what other career option? They couldn't even name one. Oh, don't tell me a plumber makes more money than a dentist.

Or maybe just find a nice down to earth girl who is not high-maintenance...

 

[D1Bound]

Or maybe just find a nice down to earth girl who is not high-maintenance...

THIS

 

[D1Bound]

Cold front first posted back in 2012 abiut USC at 114, here we are at 162 and going up. IT seems like we will be at 1 million plus easily soon, and some will still justify the cost and say its possible you just have to work more days, I mean if 6 days was what was needed for CharlesTweed back in the early 2000s, heck we are running out of days a week to work here, we only got 7.

Just work holidays you slacker. Who needs Christmas?

 

[Cold Front]

Cold front first posted back in 2012 abiut USC at 114, here we are at 162 and going up. IT seems like we will be at 1 million plus easily soon, and some will still justify the cost and say its possible you just have to work more days, I mean if 6 days was what was needed for CharlesTweed back in the early 2000s, heck we are running out of days a week to work here, we only got 7.

Dentistry is marketed = easy job. Yet, when you enter the field, you are expected to work very hard to pay off student loans. So it’s like selling snake oil, a deceptive marketing.

We are only 49 weeks away from the next tuition increases. USC first year COA will be 165-170k before interest, which is only 3% increase from this year’s numbers. Imagine if it’s another 5% increase. Either way, it will happen. I can bet my Rolex Daytona watch on that increase! lol

 

[yappy]

People keep saying there are a ton of ways that money can easily be made. And when I asked what other career option? They couldn't even name one. Oh, don't tell me a plumber makes more money than a dentist.

People have mentioned a lot of other professions that are an alternative to dent/med, but you refuse to believe they exist.

Engineering, actuary, sales, CPA, finance, management, data, CS, etc. are all great fields. No, you cannot be dumb as rocks or lazy. But you cannot be those things in healthcare either. With debt becoming such an issue, it’s important to consider net lifetime earnings. Not just what you make when you finally finish training, pay off your debts, and half is taxed away.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

my Rolex Daytona watch

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

People have mentioned a lot of other professions that are an alternative to dent/med, but you refuse to believe they exist.

Absolutely. I don’t get the idea of some doubling down on dentistry either.

For example... there is a huge shortage of commercial pilots now.

First officer pilot (entry level) starting salary is $100/hr now.

Big jet international pilots (the 777 guys) make $350/hr now.

All of them are expected to get a 10% raise this year, possibly more. If you could choose between dentistry and being a pilot, no brainer! Be miserable with high student debt and stagnant income... versus flying around the country and world and getting paid well for it.

 

[charlestweed]

Or maybe just find a nice down to earth girl who is not high-maintenance...

That would be nice. The problem is nice down to earth girls are usually not pretty….said Jason Alexander on this video clip (minute 0:48). For a nice and pretty girl to approve you, you need to have a stable successful career (ie being a dentist/doctor).

 

[LFA20]

That would be nice. The problem is nice down to earth girls are usually not pretty….said Jason Alexander on this video clip (minute 0:48). For a nice and pretty girl to approve you, you need to have a stable successful career (ie being a dentist/doctor).

You’re saying my wife is not pretty???!!🤨

 

[charlestweed]

Absolutely. I don’t get the idea of some doubling down on dentistry either.

For example... there is a huge shortage of commercial pilots now.

First officer pilot (entry level) starting salary is $100/hr now.

Big jet international pilots (the 777 guys) make $350/hr now.

All of them are expected to get a 10% raise this year, possibly more. If you could choose between dentistry and being a pilot, no brainer! Be miserable with high student debt and stagnant income... versus flying around the country and world and getting paid well for it.

Pilot is a good job if you are ok with being away from your wife and kids all the time. Everything in life is a trade-off. You have to give up something in order to gain something else.

The reason girls are all over this pilot in the picture is because Leonardo DiCaprio is a darn good looking and charming guy….and not because he’s a pilot.

 

[charlestweed]

People have mentioned a lot of other professions that are an alternative to dent/med, but you refuse to believe they exist.

Engineering, actuary, sales, CPA, finance, management, data, CS, etc. are all great fields. No, you cannot be dumb as rocks or lazy. But you cannot be those things in healthcare either. With debt becoming such an issue, it’s important to consider net lifetime earnings. Not just what you make when you finally finish training, pay off your debts, and half is taxed away.

Those are all fine jobs but will they be stable long term? Will the jobs still be there for them when they are older? I know plenty of people who used to have one of those jobs and decided to go back to schools to study to become a dentist and doctors. Some of them lost their houses during the housing bubble and the dentists and doctors continued to keep their houses.

 

[charlestweed]

You’re saying my wife is not pretty???!!🤨

You are a dentist. You get to choose who you want to marry.

 

[yappy]

Those are all fine jobs but will they be stable long term? Will the jobs still be there for them when they are older? I know plenty of people who used to have one of those jobs and decided to go back to schools to study to become a dentist and doctors. Some of them lost their houses during the housing bubble and the dentists and doctors continued to keep their houses.

Yeah. If you’re hard working and smart it’s possible to get promoted too. It sounds like their problem was they were over leveraged on their homes.

 

[Cold Front]

The reason girls are all over this pilot in the picture is because Leonardo DiCaprio is a darn good looking and charming guy….and not because he’s a pilot.

You crack me up Charles! lol

Your 10 commandments in dentistry:

1. Marry up (wife as a doctor preferable)
2. Work 6 days a week to manage student loans
3. Specialize even if it’s even more big debt.
4. Dentistry is the best profession at any cost of investment, time and money.
5. Easy to make higher income by working very hard.
6. Millionaires teach us that we can all be like them if we follow their efforts, as a dentist ofcourse.
7. Good times come later in life, so giddy up your youth until you get there.
8. Almost all financial challenges can be normalized as a dentist.
9. If you consider a better profession financially, dentistry is still better in many aspects.
10. Save TON of money for your kids to get through dental school. It will be worth it for them.

I hope I referenced all the right way. lol

 

[DDS9994]

If you work, work, work and but also keep spending your money, then 7 days/wk is still not enough to pay the loan even if it’s only $100k. You have to control your spending while paying off debt…..start with paying off the smaller loan first, instead of buying a BMW. When the debt is at a sustainable level (ie half the what you originally owed) and when you realize your income is also at a stable level, you can start invest on other things to help you become rich fast. Most rich dentists don’t get rich from practicing dentistry alone. They invest.

People keep saying there are a ton of ways that money can easily be made. And when I asked what other career option? They couldn't even name one. Oh, don't tell me a plumber makes more money than a dentist.

Yeah. If you’re hard working and smart it’s possible to get promoted. It sounds like their problem was they were over leveraged on their homes.

There were plenty of doctors who got caught up in the housing crisis. lost homes, and some lost thier practices as well.

 

[charlestweed]

You crack me up Charles! lol

Your 10 commandments in dentistry:

1. Marry up (wife as a doctor preferable)
2. Work 6 days a week to manage student loans
3. Specialize even if it’s even more big debt.
4. Dentistry is the best profession at any cost of investment, time and money.
5. Easy to make higher income by working very hard.
6. Millionaires teach us that we can all be like them if we follow their efforts, as a dentist ofcourse.
7. Good times come later in life, so giddy up your youth until you get there.
8. Almost all financial challenges can be normalized as a dentist.
9. If you consider a better profession financially, dentistry is still better in many aspects.
10. Save TON of money for your kids to get through dental school. It will be worth it for them.

I hope I referenced all the right way. lol

1.Yes, wife as a doctor, who works hard. A rich wife who inherits the money from her parents doesn’t count. Gotta have good work ethic.

2. Yes. 6 days/wk + living like a poor students for a couple of years......don't make minimum payments....start paying off the smallest loan first.

3. a. Not just any specialty. Ortho is the most preferable one. Ortho > OMFS> pedo> endo > perio. Many corp offices hire orthos and OS’s.

b. Only if you are willing to go around begging the referral GPs. At least with ortho, you can market your practice directly to the public. But you still need GP referrals if you want to get rid of the debt fast.

4.True. And medical specialties like GI, dermatology, ophthalmology, radiology etc.

5. 100% True. I haven’t yet met a dentist who works hard and is poor. And I've also met a lot of dentists who have very average lifestyle because they choose not to work hard.

6. Millionaires do not only work hard. They also live like they are not millionaires….ie careful with their spendings, living within their means, saving for retirements etc.

7. Yes. I am glad I workef hard earlier in my life (zero regret) and now things like recession, Covid, don’t bother me at all. I don't feel I have missed out on anything. I've actually gained a lot from years of hard work.....financially independent lifestyle is one of the major ones. Earning the respect from others is another one.

8. Yes, if you work hard because dentistry is a stable career.

9. Dentistry and medicine.

10. Yes, guaranteed 6-figure income after graduation. And having zero debt is a huge plus.

 

[D1Bound]

You crack me up Charles! lol

Your 10 commandments in dentistry:

1. Marry up (wife as a doctor preferable)
2. Work 6 days a week to manage student loans
3. Specialize even if it’s even more big debt.
4. Dentistry is the best profession at any cost of investment, time and money.
5. Easy to make higher income by working very hard.
6. Millionaires teach us that we can all be like them if we follow their efforts, as a dentist ofcourse.
7. Good times come later in life, so giddy up your youth until you get there.
8. Almost all financial challenges can be normalized as a dentist.
9. If you consider a better profession financially, dentistry is still better in many aspects.
10. Save TON of money for your kids to get through dental school. It will be worth it for them.

I hope I referenced all the right way. lol

I fail to see why a male should follow number 1. Why would a man “marry up” when they can just “up” themselves?

 

[GoDental101]

I fail to see why a male should follow number 1. Why would a man “marry up” when they can just “up” themselves?

I agree with you. Especially if you want to have someone you can trust in the utmost manner to remain in the home raising your offspring. Best to pick is a down to earth girl that has no debt so they readily have that option, but that's just personal preference everyone has their own goals. If riches were number one then yeah two incomes are better than one.

 

[charlestweed]

I fail to see why a male should follow number 1. Why would a man “marry up” when they can just “up” themselves?

Nah, I am too lazy to choose the option of being the only person who works in the family. If something bad happens to me, the wife can step up and becomes the main income earner in the house. And the kids will not lose the comfortable lifestyle that we’ve provided for them. When she works, she tends to value her hard earned money more and is more careful with how the money should be spent. And lastly, when a person has so much free time at home (while the kids are at school), she tends to get bored easily and starts doing things like going around town buying a bunch of stuff to cook, online shopping, chatting on the phones with other stay-at-home moms for hours, doing volunteer works outside the house and neglecting the kids etc. Work doesn’t just help bring in the money. It teaches a person a lot of valuable lessons in life.

 

[PerioDont]

You crack me up Charles! lol

Your 10 commandments in dentistry:

1. Marry up (wife as a doctor preferable)
2. Work 6 days a week to manage student loans
3. Specialize even if it’s even more big debt.
4. Dentistry is the best profession at any cost of investment, time and money.
5. Easy to make higher income by working very hard.
6. Millionaires teach us that we can all be like them if we follow their efforts, as a dentist ofcourse.
7. Good times come later in life, so giddy up your youth until you get there.
8. Almost all financial challenges can be normalized as a dentist.
9. If you consider a better profession financially, dentistry is still better in many aspects.
10. Save TON of money for your kids to get through dental school. It will be worth it for them.

I hope I referenced all the right way. lol

You gotta say @charlestweed has been super consistent on his views for the last decade of his posts on here.

He would make a horrible politician

 

[charlestweed]

You gotta say @charlestweed has been super consistent on his views for the last decade of his posts on here.

He would make a horrible politician

LOL. One thing I am in agreement with ColdFront is USC is not a good dental school to attend. Not only it is too expensive, it’s also a very stressful environment to be in. The class size is big. It’s hard to find patients. Many students had to stay back an extra semester (and paid extra tuition) in order to fulfill their graduation requirements. It’s also hard to find patients at the other cross-town rival school, UCLA, but at least UCLA is more lenient and allows everybody to graduate on time.

If you want to stay in SoCal and can’t get into the cheaper UCLA, you should pick either Western or Loma Linda. Both schools provide a lot of patients for their students and you should have no problem graduating on time.

My nephew got waitlisted at USC and later got accepted there. But he listened to our advice and picked an east coast school, the same school that Coldfront attended 10+ years ago. It's an expensive school but is still cheaper than USC.

 

[AONLINE]

LOL. One thing I am in agreement with ColdFront is USC is not a good dental school to attend. Not only it is too expensive, it’s also a very stressful environment to be in. The class size is big. It’s hard to find patients. Many students had to stay back an extra semester (and paid extra tuition) in order to fulfill their graduation requirements. It’s also hard to find patients at the other cross-town rival school, UCLA, but at least UCLA is more lenient and allows everybody to graduate on time.

If you want to stay in SoCal and can’t get into the cheaper UCLA, you should pick either Western or Loma Linda. Both schools provide a lot of patients for their students and you should have no problem graduating on time.

My nephew got waitlisted at USC and later got accepted there. But he listened to our advice and picked an east coast school, the same school that Coldfront attended 10+ years ago. It's an expensive school but is still cheaper than USC.

If I recall correctly… Boston University right? Is your nephew taking out full loans for that school, or is his parents helping him out? I’m sure he consulted you extensively regarding his career outlook in dentistry before applying.

 

[charlestweed]

If I recall correctly… Boston University right? Is your nephew taking out full loans for that school, or is his parents helping him out? I’m sure he consulted you extensively regarding his career outlook in dentistry before applying.

Yes, he takes out full loans. His dad is a former engineer....he lost his job 6-7 years ago. His mom, my wife’s sister, wanted him to become a successful dentist like us. My wife also encouraged him to pursue dentistry. He’s a very obedient boy. He listened to his mom and my wife. He plans to practice in TX after graduation.

 

[teeth!]

I am only writing this to add a different perspective which I think a lot of pre-dents/dental students share. First off, this whole conversation has been quite interesting (and funny at some points to read) but most importantly, the finances discussed here and other places on SDN are never discussed in any sort of undergrad meeting. I met tens of times with our prehealth advisor and finances were not discussed once. I will be attending an expensive northeast school this summer, graduating with like 350k due to some help from family. EDIT - i should've added a thank you to all those who wrote for or against dentistry and why - I'm sure (or hope) those who stumble across this page will not look at the rise in costs and scoff at it
I think what a lot of people writing miss is that finding a job with a STEM degree isn't easy as those make it out to be. A lot of friends with biology degrees make 60k, saving no money living in a big city, with minimal job growth potential. I think those of us who know how much money 400k is worry about this, but I haven't heard many better alternatives. There are more things that go into my decision for dentistry other than the finances too, which I chose dentistry over medicine for.
I may be naive and this may not be the right place for this post but I thought some new blood might help the conversation.
And the last thing - regardless of how much debt you have or what job you have, if you don't work hard and work smart, you'll never be as successful as you'd like

 

[Cold Front]

There are more things that go into my decision for dentistry other than the finances too, which I chose dentistry over medicine for.

All those other decisions you are choosing dentistry for is superseded by finances unfortunately.

Everyone in dentistry (schools, insurances, employers, vendors, banks, etc) see you as a Denti$t. All of them are not interested in your other reasons, as the system is constantly being designed to keep dentists in debt while ensuring a stagnant income for most dentists. Maybe things were different 10+ years ago, but the finances look less and less clear in the future.

 

[teeth!]

All those other decisions you are choosing dentistry for is superseded by finances unfortunately.

Everyone in dentistry (schools, insurances, employers, vendors, banks, etc) see you as a Denti$t. All of them are not interested in your other reasons, as the system is constantly being designed to keep dentists in debt while ensuring a stagnant income for most dentists. Maybe things were different 10+ years ago, but the finances look less and less clear in the future.

I appreciate your response, and you clearly have many more years of experience in comparison to myself. While I can’t ignore the finances, I still believe there is more to dentistry then the finances. Like I said, I’m young and naive so I surely could be incorrect, but if I was focused on making the most money, I have plenty of friends in IB or working at hedge funds. Unless I’m unaware, are there lots of dentists who are going bankrupt? Or who aren’t still earning in the top 10% of the country? I think about perspective all the time

 

[8_man]

I appreciate your response, and you clearly have many more years of experience in comparison to myself. While I can’t ignore the finances, I still believe there is more to dentistry then the finances. Like I said, I’m young and naive so I surely could be incorrect, but if I was focused on making the most money, I have plenty of friends in IB or working at hedge funds. Unless I’m unaware, are there lots of dentists who are going bankrupt? Or who aren’t still earning in the top 10% of the country? I think about perspective all the time

What a dentist earns and what they keep may be two very different things, especially depending on how much they paid for their education.

I think what a lot of people writing miss is that finding a job with a STEM degree isn't easy as those make it out to be.

I agree, but I would bet that the aptitude and work ethic of most dental students would translate to success in other professions (had they gone another route).

 

[teeth!]

What a dentist earns and what they keep may be two very different things, especially depending on how much they paid for their education.

I agree, but I would bet that the aptitude and work ethic of most dental students would translate to success in other professions (had they gone another route).

I can’t disagree with any of this, except for the very end - I don’t think success in other biology fields opens the same doors and feels as rewarding as dentistry does! But I’ve never done either so what do I know haha

 

[Cold Front]

But he listened to our advice and picked an east coast school, the same school that Coldfront attended 10+ years ago. It's an expensive school but is still cheaper than USC.

BU raised their fees a lot this year as well. The first year COA is about 130k now. Yes, cheaper than 162k at USC, but BU is still 550-600k for 4 years with interest. If he stays at BU to specialize, he will be looking at a total of 1.1-1.2M for sure with all those unsubsidized loans. Again, we are back to square 1 on this. It’s too damn expensive!

 

[charlestweed]

BU raised their fees a lot this year as well. The first year COA is about 130k now. Yes, cheaper than 162k at USC, but BU is still 550-600k for 4 years with interest. If he stays at BU to specialize, he will be looking at a total of 1.1-1.2M for sure with all those unsubsidized loans. Again, we are back to square 1 on this. It’s too damn expensive!

With his stats, BU was the cheapest choice for him. At least he got into dental school after 4 years of undergrad (2 years at a community college + 2 years at a university). Many of his “smarter” friends are still trying to apply to dental schools because they chose not to study and have fun while in college. And he is currently a D2.

Who knows? He might turn out to be another Taman or Coldfront.….and will be many times more successful than I am now.

 

[Cold Front]

Who knows? He might turn out to be another Taman or Coldfront.….and will be many times more successful than I am now.

Exactly. High debt is guaranteed, but success is not.

 

[charlestweed]

Exactly. High debt is guaranteed, but success is not.

That's right. No one can guarantee success with absolute certainty, regardless of the career option that one chooses. It depends on the person’s talent, work ethic, ambition. Here are some the things that one can do to increase one’s chance at success: hustle, stop complaining, stop procastinating, be prepared, hire the right emloyees, ditch the negative people, learn from one's own mistakes.

 

[charlestweed]

And the last thing - regardless of how much debt you have or what job you have, if you don't work hard and work smart, you'll never be as successful as you'd like

This. It’d be nice if you can do both: “work hard” and “work smart.” You will become a successful dentist in a very short amount of time…..like Coldfront and Tanman. You should still be very fine if you do one of these two. But if you don’t work hard nor work smart, don’t blame anyone but yourself.

With this mentality before entering the field, I am sure you will do fine as a dentist or a dental specialist. I hope my son will have this same mentality when he applies for professional school, instead of the entitlement mentality that “I’ve gone to school for 8+ years and therefore, I shouldn’t have to work on the weekends nor have to move to a rural area.”

 

[DDS9994]

I appreciate your response, and you clearly have many more years of experience in comparison to myself. While I can’t ignore the finances, I still believe there is more to dentistry then the finances. Like I said, I’m young and naive so I surely could be incorrect, but if I was focused on making the most money, I have plenty of friends in IB or working at hedge funds. Unless I’m unaware, are there lots of dentists who are going bankrupt? Or who aren’t still earning in the top 10% of the country? I think about perspective all the time

Although you are correct, dentist going bankrupt is not the norm, but it does happen. And keep in mind you may not go bankrupt, but there are dentists basically making ends meet with these practices where they are netting 140K to 150K. And alot of these thigs that used to make dentistry attractive over medicine, like " Bankers hours" etc are not as prevalent. Now many are working 6 days a week in many of these large offices till 7 pm.

 

[charlestweed]

Although you are correct, dentist going bankrupt is not the norm, but it does happen. And keep in mind you may not go bankrupt, but there are dentists basically making ends meet with these practices where they are netting 140K to 150K. And alot of these thigs that used to make dentistry attractive over medicine, like " Bankers hours" etc are not as prevalent. Now many are working 6 days a week in many of these large offices till 7 pm.

These practices probably don’t have enough patients to generate revenue either because they are in saturated areas or because the owners choose not to work hard to market their practices. The owners of these practices can increase (if they really want to) their income by working part time for corp offices. There are plenty of general dentists and specialists (myself included) do this to supplement their incomes. These owners haven't yet maximized their income earning potential....and that's their choice.

One of my own offices actually nets in this 140k-150k range. That's why I have to travel to 6 different offices.

 

[Cold Front]

That's why I have to travel to 6 different offices.

That’s a lot of traveling. You paid off all your debt, why are you still firing all cylinders?

 

[2TH MVR]

That’s a lot of traveling. You paid off all your debt, why are you still firing all cylinders?

He doesn't have cylinders. He has an electric car. 😆

 

[charlestweed]

That’s a lot of traveling. You paid off all your debt, why are you still firing all cylinders?

A lot of reasons:

1. I still have to save for my retirement. 401k money is not enough. How about the social security money? I wouldn’t count on it. The passive income from my rental properties is not enough…it’s only a fraction of my ortho income. I need to buy more properties with my money. I don’t want to take out any more loans. As you get older, your medical bills will increase. At one point, when you can’t no longer walk, you will need to hire a nurse to take care of you.

2. I have children. I can sell our rental properties and live off that money. But I want to save these properties for my children…..in case they quit colleges and don’t have good paying jobs.

3. Our income has dropped significantly because we didn’t put in the same effort as we did when we were younger. My wife only has enough patients to work 1.5 days/wk. And I only work 4.5 days/wk (9 days/month at 4 of my own offices and 10 days/month at 2 corp offices). I plan to close one of my 4 offices by the end of this year because it is losing patients and I don't have any more motivation to build it back up.

4. I am 50. I can’t just stay home doing nothing all day long. It’s boring. Gardening is too hot. Eating out too often will make me fat. I don’t have a lot of hobbies. And work gives me a lot of satisfactions.

5. I paid off my last debt not too long ago (February last year). So I still need to make a lot more for my retirement. I didn’t stop working hard when I paid off the $450k student loans 15 years ago because there were still a lot of expenses. I don’t want to stop working hard now because I want to continue to enjoy this comfortable lifestyle for many more years. It’s never enough. Living in CA is expensive.