US DO or International MD?

[OzDDS]

Don't forget the current hurdle that IMGs must deal with in Texas.

I think that is only for carribean IMGs, which pertains to just like 4-6 schools.

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[DrMom]

There are way more than 4-6 caribbean schools, granted those 4-6 are the big ones.

 

[OzDDS]

k.. well how ever many there are, I think issues concerning "how many states can I practice in" is really only an issue for carribean grads. Pretty much any other Foreign med school on the WHO list has full rights in all 50 states.

 

[DrMom]

I think it was brought up because US students who go to foreign medical schools tend to go to Caribbean schools rather than the other foreign schools.

 

[OzDDS]

I think it was brought up because US students who go to foreign medical schools tend to go to Caribbean schools rather than the other foreign schools.

Very true.. but another reason why maybe they should consider other options as well.

 

[Shinken]

Very true.. but another reason why maybe they should consider other options as well.

Unfortunately, the average pre-med in the US only speaks English, which severely limits the options those pre-meds have if they can't get into MD or DO US medical schools.

Also, Caribbean med schools have clinicals in the US which are very attractive to most US pre-meds. Other foreign med schools that teach in English (like schools in Australia, Eastern Europe and Ireland) that cater to US med school "rejects" don't have clinicals in the US. That can be a hindrance when applying for residency spots and/or licensure in some states.

Therefore, although there are many options out there, the Caribbean schools are still the prime choice for most US pre-meds that leave the country for their medical education.

 

[Lotsof77]

k.. well how ever many there are, I think issues concerning "how many states can I practice in" is really only an issue for carribean grads. Pretty much any other Foreign med school on the WHO list has full rights in all 50 states.

I'm starting school in May '05 in one of the top 4 Caribbean schools, so I think I'm in a position to answer your question. So basically you won't be satisfied with say 44-49 States? You'd want the 50th State as well (Texas)?

Can the top 4 Caribbean schools schedule all ACGME-accredited core rotations for you? Yes. You must want it though.

Are the hospitals affiliated with the school? (If by affiliated, you mean an agreement to train students from the school) Then, Yes.

Are all top 4 Caribbean schools approved in CA, NY? Yes.

Can you do a neurology greenbook rotation? Yes, do in in the UK.

The only real hurdle in attending a Caribbean school is to get ECFMG certified: Pass USMLE Step I, II, II CS (which you guys at US schools do anyways) + TOEFL. LMAO, you'd give up on the Caribbean b/c you can't pass the TOEFL????

 

[OzDDS]

In reference to foreign english speaking programs...

Although the Caribbean schools may have agreements with some programs in the US for their students to complete their clinical rotations there. The prestigious med schools in the UK and Australia such as Cambridge, Oxford, London, Sydney, Melbourne, etc. Also have ties with top notch programs and ivy leagues in the US through collaborative research programs as well as clinical exchanges. These foreign programs are much more respected and universally accepted, but then again.. ?some? of these programs can also be as hard if not more difficult to gain acceptance to than many US Med schools. So.. I guess it?s a mute point... and may not be an option for many people anyways.

 

[OzDDS]

Also, US DOs encounter quite a bit of resistance when trying to practice "outside" the United States as well as getting into foregin fellowship and other training programs.. but I think that the DO community has made some progress in this area recently.

 

[group_theory]

Going the DO route, one does not have to worry about not being about to practice in the United States (with the exception of the 5 states and the DO internship requirements)

Going the international route is an option and many people accomplish this task every year - but requires more hassle. A DO medical student doesn't have to worry that all his/her rotations are greenbooked, or all electives are at school affliates. The DO student doesn't have to check each state to see if they require any unique rotations (neurology). The DO student doesn't have to worry that a state will suddenly make it near impossible for current students to get future licensure (reference Texas and Ross/SGU/SABA).

Those are the downside to going international. However, this doesn't mean that it is impossible as many many people achieve licensure every year with ease. It just means that there are additional hassles that a USIMG must be aware and deal with while in medical school that a US DO student don't have to deal with.

Now there are downsides to going DO too. In the end, it is up to each individual preference. The most important aspect is to make sure one does their homework/research before deciding one over the other.

 

[Lotsof77]

Going the international route is an option and many people accomplish this but requires more hassle.

There is only one real hassle mate, that is to rock the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL).

A DO medical student doesn't have to worry that all his/her rotations are greenbooked

What kind of hassle is that mate? Before you set out on your cores, you meet up with an advisor and tell him what you want (all greenbook of course). He will try his best to fill your schedules with such. There may be a few weeks of gaps where no spaces are available. But in the end, you'll have to recompensate a few months. We do that anyways. We IMGs do not intend to take long breaks in between calendar years or take breaks for that matter.

all electives are at school affliates.

Urghh, the fewest hospitals affiliates in the US that a top 4 Caribb school has is 13. Do you think there will be problems finding an elective amongst the 13?

The DO student doesn't have to check each state to see if they require any unique rotations (neurology).

Omg, you make it seem like neurology is such a big deal. We can go to England/Ireland to fulfill that, if no greenbook neurology are available to us in the US. Anything UK is auto-greenbook.

The DO student doesn't have to worry that a state will suddenly make it near impossible for current students to get future licensure (reference Texas and Ross/SGU/SABA).

Urgh, most of us plan to get more than 1 license as soon as we are through residency. We don't need to rely on a future where our schools may no longer exist and thus cannot verify our diplomas.

Those are the downside to going international.

Only 1 downside, the TOEFL. You might say getting ECFMG certified for residency is a downside. Is it really? ECFMG = USMLE I + II + II CS + TOEFL. US students have to do all of those minus the TOEFL anyways.

However, this doesn't mean that it is impossible as many many people achieve licensure every year with ease.

Urgh, 80%+ of those who make it past the tought Basic Medical Sciences obtain a US residency after/by the time they graduate. Look to the school's web site for further proof.

It just means that there are additional hassles that a USIMG must be aware and deal with while in medical school that a US DO student don't have to deal with.

Is TOEFL really that unbearable as a hassle?

Now there are downsides to going DO too. In the end, it is up to each individual preference.

I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have the DO after my name at the lobby of the hospital/my office door where I work. Makes people wonder.

The most important aspect is to make sure one does their homework/research before deciding one over the other.

I highly agree. But if you aren't getting any younger wait-listing, the Caribb. is a very viable option.

 

[group_theory]

Lotsof77 - you made good points. To some, it might be too much to deal with. To others, it's no big deal. Everyone have different preferences. Same goes for having MD or DO after name.

I used neuro as an example of one state throwing a wrench into the system that creates additional angst. (honestly, how many students will take neuro if it wasn't a required rotation for licensure)

The downside to doing all rotations among school affliates is that it limits your ability to do audition rotations at other places where you might want to do your residency. Now an audition rotation certainly isn't require, but it gives the residency a chance to look at you, and it also lets you see the place and get a feel to see whether it is a right fit.

I don't think getting ECFGM certified is a hassle (at least in the sense that I am using). I was referring to the fact that you must stay up-to-date on state licensuring laws while in med school in order to avoid getting shut out. That is something that US MDs/DOs don't do while in med school.

 

[Cowboy DO]

I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have the DO after my name at the lobby of the hospital/my office door where I work.

i personally cant wait.

[it]...Makes people wonder.

Yeah, Im sure people really loose a lot of sleep over it. Oh and as long as we are making assumptions about what other people are thinking, i think you have chosen to be a doctor for the wrong reasons...i.e. some sort of self esteem booster, in particular because the last two letters after your name seem to matter so much more than the glaring evidence that in reality DO?s tend to be better off after graduation.

 

[Shinken]

Yeah, Im sure people really loose a lot of sleep over it. Oh and as long as we are making assumptions about what other people are thinking, i think you have chosen to be a doctor for the wrong reasons...i.e. some sort of self esteem booster, in particular because the last two letters after your name seem to matter so much more than the glaring evidence that in reality DO?s tend to be better off after graduation.

Ouch.

You know what makes me wonder? The fact that some states will not allow an MD from Saba to practice (Saba is the school that Lotsof77 is going to attend). Yet those states that will not allow Lotsof77 to practice will allow any DO to practice any day of the week. Hmmm...that makes me wonder.

Oh, well...a DO degree does suck. After all, you might fall in love with an Australian.

 

[Cowboy DO]

Ouch.

Yeah that was kind of harsh, but what he said ticked me off.

 

[Lotsof77]

Er, you shouldn't be dishing out insults to IMG's in an IMG subforum. Makes DO's look bad.

Anyways, re-read my post REAL CAREFULLY. Where did I insult DO's? I just said: Makes people wonder (what a D.O. degree stands for). Most people who aren't familiar in the professional field wouldn't know. For instance, I hadn't known of the existence of the D.O. degree until last year.

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with wanting international recognition. Sort of levels you on the playing field in terms of presenting research, attending international conferences, participating/delivering health care else where, research, missionary work, research, research, research, etc.

Anyways, depends on what you value in an MD or DO. For instance, I thought that it would be super cool to approach an international conference and say that you are a licensed MD in the US.

 

[Lotsof77]

The fact that some states will not allow an MD from Saba to practice (Saba is the school that Lotsof77 is going to attend).

For someone's with 100+ posts, they should serve the public well to be model users (you might want to become a mod someday). So refrain from insulting my school. I never insulted yours. My original thread was in defense of why the IMG route is not such a hassle!

(Yeah, those states that lie in the mountain ranges).

 

[Shinken]

(Yeah, those states that lie in the mountain ranges).

Must have hit a chord, right? Is Texas in the mountain range? (I'm not American so I'm not quite sure. Didn't learn that stuff in high school).

I never insulted your school I simply stated a fact. Saba isn't accepted in all of the US, the DO degree is.

No, I don't intend to be a mod someday. I don't have much free time and have no desire to be a mod anyway. Luckily, today is the last day of Thanksgiving break so I can finally stop spending time replying to silly threads.

CowboyDO was right, your main intention to get an MD degree from Saba is as an ego booster. "International conference...say that you're a licensed MD in the US" That's precious. That's a lot of effort and money just to dream of attending an "international conference." You'll probably annoy everyone there by introducing yourself as "Hello, I'm Lotsof77...I'm an MD in the US...Licensed MD, that is."

By the way, I did try to read your post carefully. But between the Urgh, Er, and Omg it was really hard.

Since this thread is degenerating into yet another Carib MD vs US DO bash fest, I'm signing out. Good luck, Lotsof77, and let us know how it goes at that international conference.

I'm off to serve the public...after all, I do have 100+ posts.

 

[leorl]

Play nice.

In addition, IMGs are no longer required to take the TOEFL. English proficiency is examined both with the written exams and the Step 2 CS, which US students also have to take. There is now no extra exam for IMGs.

 

[my alias]

Must have hit a chord, right? Is Texas in the mountain range? (I'm not American so I'm not quite sure. Didn't learn that stuff in high school).

I never insulted your school I simply stated a fact. Saba isn't accepted in all of the US, the DO degree is.

No, I don't intend to be a mod someday. I don't have much free time and have no desire to be a mod anyway. Luckily, today is the last day of Thanksgiving break so I can finally stop spending time replying to silly threads.

CowboyDO was right, your main intention to get an MD degree from Saba is as an ego booster. "International conference...say that you're a licensed MD in the US" That's precious. That's a lot of effort and money just to dream of attending an "international conference." You'll probably annoy everyone there by introducing yourself as "Hello, I'm Lotsof77...I'm an MD in the US...Licensed MD, that is."

By the way, I did try to read your post carefully. But between the Urgh, Er, and Omg it was really hard.

Since this thread is degenerating into yet another Carib MD vs US DO bash fest, I'm signing out. Good luck, Lotsof77, and let us know how it goes at that international conference.

I'm off to serve the public...after all, I do have 100+ posts.

LOL... that was awesome!!

 

[Purifyer]

For instance, I thought that it would be super cool to approach an international conference and say that you are a licensed MD in the US.

I just thought I'd chip in with an 'lol'.