US DO or International MD?

[Valmont]

What si the thinking here: Is one better off to take a US DO school or go MD outside the US?

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[DrMom]

I recommend that you do a search. There are tons of threads that address this question.

 

[skypilot]

I love to give my opinion so I'll do it here. I think that if you are trying to match into some sort of specialty residency that is competitive you are better off going DO than SGU.

Just look at the NRMP match statistics for Anesthesia to confirm this. It is easy to get as a DO but hard as an FMG. There are also believe it or not, lots of DO Radiologists. That is almost impossible for an IMG to get.

If you want primary care, Emergency Med, OBGYN, or General Surgery which are not too competitive right now then SGU would be fine. Especially for surgery, SGU is a good choice as they seem to have lots of connections.

If you are considering another Carribean med school other than SGU you are far far better off as a DO.

If you are considering Australia or Ireland and you want the adventure of living overseas then go for it, you will do fine.

 

[loo]

Hey Valmont!

Did you hear from UCD?

Personally, I think it's great you were accepted at VCOM. What a great opportunity (read your "pro's and con's" column ) for you.

I would agree with skypilot. I guess it depends if you want to specialize or not. And let's not forget finances

As for me, I was not accepted in the states. It was not due to a subpar application. I applied to vet schools overseas because I wanted to go to AVMA-accredited institutions and NOT have to take an expensive equivalency exam when I'm done. UCD is not AVMA-accredited yet, but they are bidding for it this year. Don't get me wrong--I want to go to UCD if accepted. Yes, it will be expensive; but I will attain a goal I've wanted and worked for most of my life--to become a veterinarian. Here's the point. Go where you want, but just go! You'll work a little extra if you go foreign, but in the end you'll reach your goal

 

[Valmont]

Thanks guys---

I have not got the word yet from UCD-----I'll just have to hold on and see. For now it looks like I will be here in the states. And yes, I want to go into a rather hard area to place---ortho. surg.---lets just see what takes shape-----DMU or VCOM---ya'll be good and best wishes!

 

[Brian Pavlovitz]

Just thought I'd add my two cents. I'm currently a second year student at St. George's, and I would suggest (if you haven't already) a visit to our website. It lists all the residency appointments for the previous 5 years, as well as for the years 2002 and 2003 individually. www.sgu.edu

Hope it helps out!

--Brian

 

[Poesie Noire]

my father who happens to be an IMG and an interventional radiologist has a partner in the firm who is a DO. he explains that although no major differences exist between his partner and him (attaining the fellowship, scheduling, salaries, etc) he would still recommend IMG due the fact that many DO's face a lot of political beureaucracy in terms of their aspirations. then again, it seems an IMG would also go through such hurdles if she or she wanted such a competitive field... but go figure.

 

[skypilot]

Chances are that the IMG won't even be able to get Radiology. The DO has a good shot at it. Every year things are getting better for the DOs.

 

[Bull's eye]

Th PD I spoke with before I started med school (I had the same tough decision) said It had nothing to do with better training, having an MD ect. He said it was simple economics. Programs get more money from US grads (DO or MD). That is why it is easier for DO's to match. That being said, you can land an ortho spot as an FMG according to the SGU site. Good Luck in your decision.

 

[Bevo]

A recent grad of Ross has also received a spot in ortho and several in neurology too I believe.

Its possible, but hard.

 

[ZfoUro]

Valmont,

I'm not sure you are going to get an adequate answer from anybody posting (I realize the irony of me posting only adds to this, but I'll admit it). I feel you have to watch out for anybody that says "IMG is definately better," just as you have to watch out for anyone that says "DO is definately better," as obviously both are going to be biased. The fact is that both are discriminated against, and both carry a certain level of stigma -- unjustifiably, of course, but definately there.

I think you or anyone else considering the options has to go to the source -- go to the school's websites and look at their match lists. The fact is that SGU and Ross have pretty comparable match lists in terms of competitive residencies -- I've gone through both. And, contrary to posts on this thread and others, people do match in Diagnostic Radiology from Ross and SGU with some sort of consistency (like that is some sort of gold standard, but whatever). If you ask me, the "traditional" gold standard of "how many dermatology matches did your school get" is probably the best one, if you want to play like that, and as you will see neither Ross nor SGU nor any DO program I know of got any of these. But, motivated people do find a way eventually.

I decided to go to Ross versus a DO, and looking back I probably would do it again, but you will probably get the same response from people in DO programs as well. The real thing I think you need to look at is what living conditions are you willing to live with, whether you want a DO vs. an MD by your name, and monetarily what you are willing to pay. The education is pretty much the same, and pretty much up to you -- you can get a top-notch education from either provided you put in the time. Either way, you can slack off and be content being a physician or work your butt off and land in a competitive residency.

As far as the DO vs. carrib/Euro/Australia MD debate, I'm sure it will rage on until both sides are blue, to no avail. Somebody will say I know so-and-so PhD/MD/PD that says this is better, and somebody will say the opposite. But, from what I have gathered looking at the bigger picture and reading the forums, we are all basically lumped into US-graduated (LCME-accredited), US-pseudograduated (carrib/Euro/Australia/DO), and non-US graduated (not affiliated with any US site). And like 1-2-3, so go your relative heirarchy for residency.

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Very nicely stated ZfoUro.....

I think the most important thing you have to consider is where you will be happy, and where you think you can flourish.

To put in my two cents.....I applied to AUC, Ross, and SGU as well as U.S. schools. I did get into all of the foreign schools and after visiting Grenada, and talking to many physicians here at UCLA, I decided to go D.O. My rationale, and remember this is my opinion, was that D.O. was the best way for me to go. I have been told, at least here at UCLA, that D.O.'s and U.S. MD grads are looked at equally for residency spots, but FMG's are looked at very closely. This doesn't mean it's impossible to match of course. But one of the biggest factors in my decision was where I felt comfortable. I chose to go D.O. because I love Chicago, and felt that I fit in perfectly there. I also liked there clinical program.
Also, when I visited Grenada, I knew there was no way that I would be happy living there.

But....if I had not gained admission to any U.S. schools, I know that I would have wholeherted been excited to attend any medical school because I knew that the most important thing to me was becoming a physician. In the end, everyone who attends any medical school is still a physician. What you put into your studies ultimately will determine your success.

Good Luck to everyone.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by SM-UCLA tech
Very nicely stated ZfoUro.....

I have been told, at least here at UCLA, that D.O.'s and U.S. MD grads are looked at equally for residency spots,

This is why I think I will choose DO. Plus I would love to go to school in Philly or Biddeford, Maine or on the beach in Florida at Nova.

And after I graduate it will be "Dr. Skypilot" "Board certified in Neurosurgery"

If I don't get into DO school I would be happy with SGU or Ross.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

bump

 

[pitman]

For a comparison between MD and DO for foreign practice, there used to be a thread on this, title was something like "DO vs. MD", last modified ~October, but it's disappeared -- possibly deleted by the thread starter (a DO enthusiast), since there was evidence showing that DOs are at a real disadvantage compared to MDs at most countries outside the US.

To summarize the findings, the official osteopath site lists a bunch of countries where DOs "have in the past been licensed"...pretty lame wording, since as it turns out, various govts' and doctor recruiting sites explain that DOs are handled on a case-by-case basis for most countries outside the US (and those Canadian provinces that accept them out of hand). In other words, if you want to practice overseas, you generally have to go through a whole bunch of red tape to ensure you can practice, assuming you're not a priori rejected, and if you want to do locum tenems, you're screwed. If these are your interests, you're better off with an MD, even if as an IMG.

If foreign practice is not your interest, then you'd have to weigh relative stigma and the DO advantage in US res placement yourself to determine what's better for you, e.g., See also:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=1009071#post1009071

-pitman

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by pitman
For a comparison between MD and DO for foreign practice, there used to be a thread on this, title was something like "DO vs. MD", last modified ~October, but it's disappeared -- possibly deleted by the thread starter (a DO enthusiast), since there was evidence showing that DOs are at a real disadvantage compared to MDs at most countries outside the US.

To summarize the findings, the official osteopath site lists a bunch of countries where DOs "have in the past been licensed"...pretty lame wording, since as it turns out, various govts' and doctor recruiting sites explain that DOs are handled on a case-by-case basis for most countries outside the US (and those Canadian provinces that accept them out of hand). In other words, if you want to practice overseas, you generally have to go through a whole bunch of red tape to ensure you can practice, assuming you're not a priori rejected, and if you want to do locum tenems, you're screwed. If these are your interests, you're better off with an MD, even if as an IMG.

If foreign practice is not your interest, then you'd have to weigh relative stigma and the DO advantage in US res placement yourself to determine what's better for you, e.g., See also:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=1009071#post1009071

-pitman

Pitman i did a pretty exhaustive search as well...and I couldn't find that posting either...!

Its sad b/c it contained a lot of good links that I found on the internet...that I don't remember.

Anyway if anyone has some of that information would u please post it again?

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by redshifteffect

Anyway if anyone has some of that information would u please post it again?

Scoured the Net and found two references (I think the first one was originally found by you, red ):

http://www.gmedical.com/Doctor Services/faqs.html

Q. Do they recognize Osteopaths?

A. Unfortunately, in most of the countries who have a British style of medical practice the answer is no, not yet. In these countries osteopaths are not permitted to practice medicine. GMS has tried, several times, to register prominent osteopathic doctors but without success. This may change in the next few years, as at least one country appears to be on the verge of reconsidering this policy. We hope and expect that it is only a matter of time before DOs are accepted in all of the countries in which we work.

http://www.com.msu.edu/communique/Spring99/Licensing.html

"In most countries outside the US, physicians apply on an individual basis to become licensed physicians in that country. They may or may not be accepted in certain countries," said Douglas Ward, PhD, consultant to the American Osteopathic Association and former associate executive director of the AOA and its Department of Education. "In some countries, osteopathic physicians are arbitrarily dismissed by officials who say, 'you're a DO and we don't recognize you.' In others, they receive full practice rights, or limited practice rights on an individual basis."

"The biggest problem is educating licensing authorities in different countries," said Linda Mascheri, associate director of the AOA Department of State and Socioeconomic Affairs, Division of State Government. Mascheri is responsible for contacting and corresponding with countries identified by US DOs who want to acquire a license there. She will either begin a correspondence if necessary, or direct the physician to the proper authorities. "If an American DO calls and is interested in practice rights in a foreign country that we have not previously contacted, we will start a correspondence with the country," she said.

"Sometimes our correspondence goes unanswered, or we are asked for more information or more documentation," she said. "Many times our letters need to be translated into the language of the country being queried."

-pitman

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by skypilot
This is why I think I will choose DO. Plus I would love to go to school in Philly or Biddeford, Maine or on the beach in Florida at Nova.

And after I graduate it will be "Dr. Skypilot" "Board certified in Neurosurgery"

If I don't get into DO school I would be happy with SGU or Ross.

I would only add that I've rotated with a lot of NYCOM students over the past twenty weeks (the hospital I was at up until recently was both ACGME and AOA accredited), and I can tell you that there was absolutely no difference between the way those students were treated on the wards. Likewise, we were all pretty equal knowledge-wise and everyone was very helpful and accepting of each other. The supposed stigma and in-fighting only exists on these forums, trust me.

There's just not as big of a difference as many would have you believe. The choice is a personal one. The fact remains that most IMGs and DOs ultimately go into primary care. If that's your choice in the long run, then the decision is a toss-up in my opinion.

Good luck.

-Skip

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by pitman
Scoured the Net and found two references (I think the first one was originally found by you, red ):

http://www.gmedical.com/Doctor Services/faqs.html


http://www.com.msu.edu/communique/Spring99/Licensing.html


-pitman [/B]

thanx pitman, those are the ones i was looking for!

 

[meanderson]

I don't think many people seriously ask this question to themselves. I can think of 5 clear advantages the DO route has over the carribean. I can't think of any advantages for te carribean option. For most people, this isn't a serious option.

 

[dksamp]

Hello,
As an IMG private practicioner, both the DO and IMG side are nitpicking at differences and details that have ZERO relevance on ones true chances. The NUMERO UNO factor that determine what type of residncy chances you get is your BOARD SCORES...LEMME REPEAT...BOARD SCORES....I don't care where you went, if you have crappy board scores, the competitive spots WON'T look at you. Then again, even if you have awesome board scores, that STILLwon't guarantee you a spot. This reminds me of a real case happening this year at a WELL-RENOWNED US med school o the east coast:
The WIFE of one of my ex-classmates is a senior medical student at this US school who has had her heart set on DERM since DAY ONE. She has PERFECT academic record, ALL honors in her basic sciences and rotations, ROCKED her USMLE, 99 and 99 on BOTH parts on the USMLE, is A.O.A. (Alpha Omega Alpha), AND has derm research while in med school with her name on a
publlication. She applied to 25 derm programs, and ya know how many interviews she got??????


2...thats right, your read correctly...TWO

One is at her home institution (out of courtesy), and even that, they already admitted to her, that they already have the people that they wanted picked out. She is NOT some dysfunctional dork, and has the MOST SWEET personality you will ever find.

Another case is of a US grad I know VERY WELL who was an MD/PHD student, GREAT board scores and took time off between 3rd and 4th year to do the 1 year MPH program at HARVARD, and what shocked everyone, was that when he applied to med-peds, he wound up NOT MATCHING ANYWHERE and having to scramble.

POINT IS, is that ALL you IMG and DO's need to stop this senseless back-and-forth pissing match, cause ALL OF Y'ALL ARE WRONG. Making a decision on MEDSCHOOL based on your "match future" is nothing short of IDIOTIC. You have NO IDEA what or where your medschool path will take you. 4 years is a LONG TIME. LOTS of trend changes occur, and YOU DO NOT KNOW what board scores you may have in 2 years, and THAT will have more to do with your residency options than anything else. No matter how you feel and love ortho, if all you do is rock 80's on your boards, then ortho won't even LOOK at you. Hell, most of the US students who want ortho are not even considered unless you have high 90's on boards, A.O.A. honor society, etc.
So, let's PLEASE be grounded in reality. Pick the option that BEST suits you and your needs whether it is DO or IMG. Either way, you will come out a practicioner and you WILL GET SOMETHING depending on your board scores and interview presentation.

Y'all need to take time out to read my TOP 10 mistakes/errors made by IMG's. It puts things in perspectice. And with that I close. PEACE!!!

-Derek Sampson, MD

 

[Bull's eye]

Derek, Very nice post. You have said in this post and your top ten post what I have been thinking for a long time but haven't put it in words. You top ten should be a sticky.

 

[meanderson]

Originally posted by dksamp
Hello,
As an IMG private practicioner, both the DO and IMG side are nitpicking at differences and details that have ZERO relevance on ones true chances. The NUMERO UNO factor that determine what type of residncy chances you get is your BOARD SCORES...LEMME REPEAT...BOARD SCORES....I don't care where you went, if you have crappy board scores, the competitive spots WON'T look at you. Then again, even if you have awesome board scores, that STILLwon't guarantee you a spot. This reminds me of a real case happening this year at a WELL-RENOWNED US med school o the east coast:
The WIFE of one of my ex-classmates is a senior medical student at this US school who has had her heart set on DERM since DAY ONE. She has PERFECT academic record, ALL honors in her basic sciences and rotations, ROCKED her USMLE, 99 and 99 on BOTH parts on the USMLE, is A.O.A. (Alpha Omega Alpha), AND has derm research while in med school with her name on a
publlication. She applied to 25 derm programs, and ya know how many interviews she got??????


2...thats right, your read correctly...TWO

One is at her home institution (out of courtesy), and even that, they already admitted to her, that they already have the people that they wanted picked out. She is NOT some dysfunctional dork, and has the MOST SWEET personality you will ever find.

Another case is of a US grad I know VERY WELL who was an MD/PHD student, GREAT board scores and took time off between 3rd and 4th year to do the 1 year MPH program at HARVARD, and what shocked everyone, was that when he applied to med-peds, he wound up NOT MATCHING ANYWHERE and having to scramble.

POINT IS, is that ALL you IMG and DO's need to stop this senseless back-and-forth pissing match, cause ALL OF Y'ALL ARE WRONG. Making a decision on MEDSCHOOL based on your "match future" is nothing short of IDIOTIC. You have NO IDEA what or where your medschool path will take you. 4 years is a LONG TIME. LOTS of trend changes occur, and YOU DO NOT KNOW what board scores you may have in 2 years, and THAT will have more to do with your residency options than anything else. No matter how you feel and love ortho, if all you do is rock 80's on your boards, then ortho won't even LOOK at you. Hell, most of the US students who want ortho are not even considered unless you have high 90's on boards, A.O.A. honor society, etc.
So, let's PLEASE be grounded in reality. Pick the option that BEST suits you and your needs whether it is DO or IMG. Either way, you will come out a practicioner and you WILL GET SOMETHING depending on your board scores and interview presentation.

Y'all need to take time out to read my TOP 10 mistakes/errors made by IMG's. It puts things in perspectice. And with that I close. PEACE!!!

-Derek Sampson, MD

The problem is that going IMG over DO is never the best option IF you are holding one acceptance from each. I don't think any IMG's would argue this. The real question is whether improving your application and trying to apply DO the next year is a good option.

And I don't think the number of DO students matching in semi-competitive fields relative to carib grads is "nitpicking". That's very important. You are right that trends change, but even when trends change it is still a certainty that many students will want to match in something that is semi-competitive.

The fact is that DO students don't need to rock the boards to get into semi-competitive allopathic university residencies. They are going into EM, gas, and general surgery without any trouble. Trying to match anesth. from Ross, AUC, or even SGU at a university program is NOT easy.

You mention how it is very hard for US graduates to enter ortho. True, but the match rate for US allopathic seniors for ortho is still well over 80%!! Yeah, there is some self-selection going on there, but to suggest that one needs to just destroy the boards to even be considered for a competitive field coming from an allopathic school just isn't true. The average successful allopathic ortho applicant has around a 230 every year. Some score less and still get in.

 

[tofurious]

Does anyone else see a flaw in the logic that the most important thing is your BOARD SCORE but even if you have high BOARD scores it's not a guarantee?

Wouldn't that make BOARD SCORE a screening tool but not the NUMERO UNO thing? (Perhaps by numero uno you meant the first thing you need to do, but not the most important thing)

A problem with the highly competitive students from renowned schools is that they are often not aware of the highly competitive students from OTHER renowned schools in the country. (And too many schools consider themselves highly renowned, including Carribean schools and foreign medical schools) In addition to all those things listed, PDs (especially at prestigious programs) would openly admit to you that they would frequently pick people they have worked with firsthand or those who come highly recommended by their colleagues through away rotations, LORs, and Dean's Letter. Many people with extremely high scores simply don't have LORs and DLs that reflect such scores, which would raise a red flag in the highly competitive fields/programs/institutions.

The OP's question centered on a choice between a US DO school and a foreign medical school. If I were the OP, I'd take another year to reapply to get into a US MD school if you want to get into a competitive field/institution. If you want to have a private practice and your family has the $$$ to back you, it almost doesn't matter where you go. Even if you graduate from the worst med school, as long as you pass USMLE, some non-competitive residency program will take you and you will become an MD.

 

[ny skindoc]

Overall I agree with dksamp but one advantage of DO that does alter the equation for some is the availability of DO only residency spots in Derm,Ortho,Optho,Rads etc.While few in number they certainly open the door to people who might not be as competitive for an allopathic spot,so for a borderline residency applicant the DO might mean the difference between Rads or no rads.
As for the outstanding applicant to Derm who got only 2 interviews.Yes this does happen,if she stays at her med school and does a year or two of reseach she will get in.If they still wont consider her then there are personality conflicts she probably has with people in her derm dept you dont know about in spite of how sweet she appears.

 

[OzDDS]

http://www.anaesthesia.uwa.edu.au/employment/info.html Read what it says at the bottom regarding FMGs. This could be one of the downsides to DO I think, if you wanted to do fellowships or training outside the US. sucks

 

[YellowRose]

http://www.anaesthesia.uwa.edu.au/employment/info.html Read what it says at the bottom regarding FMGs. This could be one of the downsides to DO I think, if you wanted to do fellowships or training outside the US. sucks

I think this is, for the most part, a non-issue. 99.999% of us work so hard to get into a US school and a US residency, why would we want to go overseas to get a residency. of course, theres probably that 0.001% of the D.O. population that is actually from Nedlands, Australia and wants to go into anesthesia back in their home country........i know he/she's out there somewhere....

 

[OzDDS]

Probably so.. and if you never want to leave the country then it doesn't seem that there should be a problem... but there are many US grads who do fellowships abroad or who do mission work, or who enjoy a working holiday, or who want to live elsewhere for whatever reasons. If this is something that interests you.. It may be a factor you would want to consider. I just think it would be unfortunant for a student to go through DO school and have an interest in missions or who wanted to work abroad and find out after the fact that this was a slim to none chance for them.

 

[rocker]

If you're a DO and fell in love with someone from another country, like Australia, then you're pretty screwed if the love of your life wants to move back home.

 

[YellowRose]

I agree, that is unfortunate. But i have a solution...if that's your ultimate goal, study your butt off and get into an american MD school.

ultimately, it's a personal decision. The odds of me finding an australian man is pretty slim, so i'm not gonna take that chance of going to a caribbean school "just in case" one day i will find an australian (or man from ____ country in the future). Medical missions is not a problem, as most of these countries are short of doctors, so put up fewer hurdles for short term licenses. and There are plenty of DO's that practice in other countries by applying for priviledges. Some countries give it to them, some don't. But i won't lose sleep over it.

In terms of fellowships, I (and i'm pretty sure most) physicians wouldn't even consider doing a foreign fellowship, because foreign residencies are not accepted in the US. Why do a fellowship overseas if you're not allowed to practice that field in the US. case in point, I recently worked with a Hem/ONC doctor from the phillipines, that was a volunteer extern, in order to get her face known so that she could apply to the FP program. I'm not saying all IMG's are only getting FP, you and I know that's not true. But its much more difficult (AAMC publishes listings of matches, and total IMG's matach slightly overj 50%). having that low of a match rate is not a dice that i want to role. But if you're a solid IMG, and care about having an MD after our name, by all means, go for it.

 

[OzDDS]

Actually, as long as your residency was in the US.. You can expand your scope and knowledge with a foreign fellowship as far as I know. For one.. I know tons of Plastic guys who do foreign craniofacial fellowships in Australia, France, UK, Taiwan. etc and then come back to the states to do more than just plastic surgery but who are now practicing as Craniofacial surgeons!

 

[OzDDS]

Here are some examples of doctors who decided to do foreign fellowships.. and yes, Post-US residency training foreign fellowships are acceptable and can be used to expand your skills and scope of practice.


http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/svc/staff/w/norbert-weidner.htm

http://wuphysicians.wustl.edu/physician2.asp?PhysNum=728

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/CardiacSurgery/Faculty/cameron.html

http://www2.med.umich.edu/pcdv2/ind...ile&individual_id=35712&um_department=Surgery

http://www2.mdanderson.org/app/clinical/details.cfm?id=127500

 

[YellowRose]

Oops, i stand corrected. I guess you can do foreign fellowships and become board certified in the US. I just assummed that because foreign trained residencies weren't accepted, that fellowships weren't also. go figure. why would they accept one and not the other?????

Now i don't know the actual law on this, but must you first complete an american residency before you are allowed to attain a foreign fellowship?

so i guess that take home message is if you are considering a foreign fellowship, go to a US MD school or caribbean/foreign MD school. But if you are considering an american fellowship, i would venture to say a US MD or US DO route would probably be better, since DO's are eligible for MD fellowships as well as strictly DO fellowships. cheers.

Here are some examples of doctors who decided to do foreign fellowships.. and yes, Post-US residency training foreign fellowships are acceptable and can be used to expand your skills and scope of practice.


http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/svc/staff/w/norbert-weidner.htm

http://wuphysicians.wustl.edu/physician2.asp?PhysNum=728

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/CardiacSurgery/Faculty/cameron.html

http://www2.med.umich.edu/pcdv2/ind...ile&individual_id=35712&um_department=Surgery

http://www2.mdanderson.org/app/clinical/details.cfm?id=127500

 

[rocker]

If I'm not mistaken, I don't think you can become board certified in the USA unless you do both residency and fellowship training in the USA. The only exceptions are educational exemptions, ie medical faculty at a teaching institution. For example, you do all you're residency training in general surgery in the USA and do your fellowship training in the specialty surgery of your choice in a foreign country. After that you can get the educational exception to work at a University, but I don't think you can work as a board certified surgeon. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If I'm not mistaken, I don't think you can become board certified in the USA unless you do both residency and fellowship training in the USA. The only exceptions are educational exemptions, ie medical faculty at a teaching institution. For example, you do all you're residency training in general surgery in the USA and do your fellowship training in the specialty surgery of your choice in a foreign country. After that you can get the educational exception to work at a University, but I don't think you can work as a board certified surgeon. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

It depends on the field. To be a Board Certified General Surgeon only requires completion of a General Surgery residency in the US, passing the written and oral boards. Fellowship training does not affect Board certification in the basic training (ie, General Surgery in our example).

For fellowship training, remember not all fellowships have boards, and therefore the terminal "board" would be the General Surgery or other specialty. A couple of examples I can think of are Trauma or Burns - you can train abroad if you wish because there is no board certification in trauma or burn surgery but you can then return to the US to work as a Trauma or Burn Surgeon without being required to sit extra board exams (since they don't exist). These usually merely are either accredited by some US body (US based fellowships of course) or offer a certificate.

Many fellowships follow along the same path - ie, Board certified Plastic Surgeons may go abroad to do a Microvascular fellowship (there's a great program in Melbourne) or Craniofacial and then return to the US. Its not a problem because neither of these superspecialties have a board; the physician would be a board certified Plastic Surgeon, specializing in X or Y.

 

[YellowRose]

ohh, i see. That makes much more sense now. i guess what kimberly is saying is that these foreign fellowships are just extra training, but will not actually get you board certification in the US. Now if these specialties have certification exams, can foreign trained fellow sit for these?? I know that in the core specialties (surgery, FP, IM, Peds), they can't.

So foreign fellowship training is just extra training, not board certification. For instance, i can't do IM training in the US, then a GI fellowship in australia and come back to the US as a GI specialist. I think you probably could pull it off in an academic setting because you could get patients from the university, and the university would allow you to practice GI as an internist because they know of your training. But if you were in private practice, health insurace plans will not allow you to practice unless you are board certified in that field.

It depends on the field. To be a Board Certified General Surgeon only requires completion of a General Surgery residency in the US, passing the written and oral boards. Fellowship training does not affect Board certification in the basic training (ie, General Surgery in our example).

For fellowship training, remember not all fellowships have boards, and therefore the terminal "board" would be the General Surgery or other specialty. A couple of examples I can think of are Trauma or Burns - you can train abroad if you wish because there is no board certification in trauma or burn surgery but you can then return to the US to work as a Trauma or Burn Surgeon without being required to sit extra board exams (since they don't exist). These usually merely are either accredited by some US body (US based fellowships of course) or offer a certificate.

Many fellowships follow along the same path - ie, Board certified Plastic Surgeons may go abroad to do a Microvascular fellowship (there's a great program in Melbourne) or Craniofacial and then return to the US. Its not a problem because neither of these superspecialties have a board; the physician would be a board certified Plastic Surgeon, specializing in X or Y.

 

[OzDDS]

I hear that radiology is interesting... because of the level of international standardization that is occuring.. especially with new technology in digital radiography, tele-medicine, etc.

Here is an Australian radiologist who did even his residency in Australia.. but did a 1 year fellowship in the US. And is now licesensed in the US, and board certified by the American Board of Radiology.




http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/svc/staff/j/neil-johnson.htm

 

[OzDDS]

I don't think there is a seperate board exam for pediatric radiology?

Kimberli .. How does this work? help us out! Any ideas?

 

[Skip Intro]

OzDDS-

I hope you don't take this completely the wrong way, but there is just something really, truly annoying and irritating about your posts, like an over-inquisitive little four-year-old who incessantly asks "why" about everything. Work a little harder at doing some homework on your own before you post, please. Not a diss; just a suggestion.

-Skip

 

[YellowRose]

The guy from australia must be the exception, rather than the rule. Maybe he was able to sit for the US boards because he did a portion of his training in the states. who knows.....boy you've got lots of time on your hands....

 

[OzDDS]

. Work a little harder at doing some homework on your own before you post, please. Not a diss; just a suggestion.

-Skip

Isn't that what SDN is for to some extent... for doing your homework.. to gain insight about career choices from current residents/doctors and your peers? If you've looked online for information unsuccessfully and/or curious, SDN is a good forum to find answers.

Have I personally insulted you in some way? What specifically about my questions annoys you? I don't understand. I apologies if you feel I have asked stupid questions.. but not everyone understands the details of many healthcare fields. I think it is interesting and good to have answers to some of these things. sorry.

 

[OzDDS]

The guy from australia must be the exception, rather than the rule. Maybe he was able to sit for the US boards because he did a portion of his training in the states. who knows.....boy you've got lots of time on your hands....

Dude.. What's so wrong with asking why? I think many people would like to know the answer to these sorts of questions... I think these are some legitimate questions. The answers might benefit a lot of people, and help them to know what pathways are out there to fulfill their career aspirations. Why is this soo offensive? I don't get it?

 

[prefontaine]

There was a doorway that allowed IMGs that had completed a residency outside of the US to attain a license. The Australian must have been one of the last to make it through this doorway before it closed. It may have been country specific, eg UK, OZ, South Africa, etc. Psych still accepted some or perhaps all residency training from select countries, though this vehicle may also no longer exist.

The guy from australia must be the exception, rather than the rule. Maybe he was able to sit for the US boards because he did a portion of his training in the states. who knows.....boy you've got lots of time on your hands....

 

[Miklos]

There was a doorway that allowed IMGs that had completed a residency outside of the US to attain a license. The Australian must have been one of the last to make it through this doorway before it closed. It may have been country specific, eg UK, OZ, South Africa, etc. Psych still accepted some or perhaps all residency training from select countries, though this vehicle may also no longer exist.

Psych only accepts Canadian residencies under certain conditions.

Any other international post-graduate training is not accepted by the ABPN if the person entered a postgraduate program after July 1, 1997.

See http://www.abpn.com/Downloads/2004part1_ifa.pdf page 19 for more info.

Miklos

 

[Shinken]

What happens if an Australian MD comes to the US for training, falls in love with an American DO who happens to be the love of his life and then cannot pass the USMLE and has to go back to Australia?

What if an American DO falls in love with a British DO, who only performs manipulation, and both decide to move to Australia, and one of them cheats on the other with an Australian MD?

Moral of the story: Don't study medicine, DO or MD. Go to Australia and find the love of your life.

 

[OzDDS]

So if US recognition of international training is easier for people in certain countries like UK, Australia, and Canada with similar standards...
is it also easier in certain fields such as psyc, or radiology where there seems to be more international agreements and standards? I just heard that the practice of radiology in particular had a much higher level of international standardization.. Possibly due to technology, the internet, and how everything is digital and done on the computer in radiology now anyways.

any thoughts?

If as one person claimed that the US doesn't allow this pathway to internationals anymore after 1997 (for Psyc)? Do you mean as a pathway to board certification? What about subspecialties that do have a board certification like pedatric derm. I would assume then that internationals who have done a derm residency would still be able to apply for a US ped derm fellowship and then become US-board certified in that field.
Also back to what we were talking about originally regarding US MDs who use international fellowships to then come back to the US to subspecilize and or widen their scope of practice. This is still acceptable and a very valuable pathway to be able to utilize.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I haven't much time to address this right now (trauma stand by page just went off), but in general the answer lies with the specific board. There are some boards (ie, Plastic Surgery) which do not accept any foreign training if you wish to be Board certified in that field. This means, that a foreign Plastic Surgeon who wishes to be Board Certified in that field would have to re-do a PRS residency in the US and sit for the written and oral boards - UNLESS, he was a internationally recnognized expert in his field (and then exceptions are sometimes made).

See the following for a list of Boards belonging to the American Board of Med Specialties:

APPROVED ABMS? SPECIALTY BOARDS &
CERTIFICATE CATEGORIES
AMERICAN BOARD of
GENERAL CERTIFICATE(S)
SUBSPECIALTY CERTIFICATES

Allergy & Immunology
Allergy & Immunology
Clinical & Laboratory Immunology


Anesthesiology
Anesthesiology
Critical Care Medicine
Pain Medicine

Colon & Rectal Surgery
Colon & Rectal Surgery



Dermatology
Dermatology
Clinical & Laboratory Dermatological Immunology
Dermatopathology
Pediatric Dermatology

Emergency Medicine
Emergency Medicine
Medical Toxicology

Pediatric Emergency Medicine
Sports Medicine

Undersea & Hyperbaric Medicine

Family Practice
Family Practice
Adolescent Medicine
Geriatric Medicine
Sports Medicine

Internal Medicine
Internal Medicine
Adolescent Medicine
Cardiovascular Disease

Clinical Cardiac Electrophysiology

Clinical & Laboratory Immunology

Critical Care Medicine

Endocrinology, Diabetes & Metabolism

Gastroenterology

Geriatric Medicine
Hematology

Infectious Disease

Interventional Cardiology

Medical Oncology

Nephrology

Pulmonary Disease

Rheumatology

Sports Medicine

Medical Genetics
Clinical Biochemical Genetics

Clinical Cytogenetics

Clinical Genetics (M.D.)

Clinical Molecular Genetics

Ph.D. Medical Genetics
Molecular Genetic Pathology


Neurological Surgery
Neurological Surgery



Nuclear Medicine
Nuclear Medicine



Obstetrics & Gynecology
Obstetrics & Gynecology
Critical Care Medicine

Gynecologic Oncology
Maternal & Fetal Medicine Reproductive Endocrinology

Ophthalmology
Ophthalmology



Orthopaedic Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery
Surgery of the Hand
Orthopaedic Sports Medicine

Otolaryngology
Otolaryngology
Neurotology

Plastic Surgery Within the Head and Neck
Pediatric Otolaryngology

Pathology
Anatomic Pathology

& Clinical Pathology

Anatomic Pathology

Clinical Pathology
Blood Banking/Transfusion Medicine

Chemical Pathology

Cytopathology

Dermatopathology

Forensic Pathology

Hematology
Medical Microbiology

Molecular Genetic Pathology

Neuropathology

Pediatric Pathology

Pediatrics
Pediatrics
Adolescent Medicine

Clinical & Laboratory Immunology

Developmental-Behavioral Pediatrics

Medical Toxicology

Neonatal-Perinatal Medicine

Neurodevelopmental Disabilities

Pediatric Cardiology

Pediatric Critical Care Medicine

Pediatric Emergency Medicine
Pediatric Endocrinology

Pediatric Gastroenterology

Pediatric Hematology-Oncology
Pediatric Infectious Diseases

Pediatric Nephrology

Pediatric Pulmonology

Pediatric Rheumatology

Sports Medicine

Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Pain Medicine

Spinal Cord Injury Medicine
Pediatric Rehabilitation Medicine

Plastic Surgery
Plastic Surgery
Plastic Surgery Within the Head and Neck
Surgery of the Hand

Preventive Medicine
Aerospace Medicine

Occupational Medicine

Public Health & General

Preventive Medicine
Medical Toxicology

Undersea & Hyperbaric Medicine


Psychiatry & Neurology
Psychiatry

Neurology

Neurology with Special Qualifications

in Child Neurology
Addiction Psychiatry

Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

Clinical Neurophysiology

Forensic Psychiatry
Geriatric Psychiatry

Neurodevelopmental Disabilities

Pain Medicine
Psychosomatic Medicine
Vascular Neurology

Radiology
Diagnostic Radiology

Radiation Oncology

Radiological Physics
Neuroradiology

Nuclear Radiology
Pediatric Radiology
Vascular & Interventional Radiology

Surgery
Surgery
Pediatric Surgery

Surgery of the Hand
Surgical Critical Care
Vascular Surgery

Thoracic Surgery
Thoracic Surgery



Urology
Urology





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[HiddenTruth]

my father who happens to be an IMG and an interventional radiologist has a partner in the firm who is a DO. he explains that although no major differences exist between his partner and him (attaining the fellowship, scheduling, salaries, etc) he would still recommend IMG due the fact that many DO's face a lot of political beureaucracy in terms of their aspirations. then again, it seems an IMG would also go through such hurdles if she or she wanted such a competitive field... but go figure.

keep in mind that IMG were a LOT more easier to get in back in the day, when your father was applying. if you look across the board, there are ridicolous amounts of cardiologists and specialists out there that are foreign trained (esp. indian/paki). But, the caveat to all this is that they all came and got in back in the 70-80's. It was much much more easier to get in, plus medicine had just became a lucrative field. Now, that it is so saturated and AMG are even having a hard time getting into the some of the most competetive specialties, it is almost impossible for IMG to get into those.

On another note to the OP and those in the dilemma between D.O and IMG--I worked with a mentor once at a top 5 U.S med school and he was telling this guy that I worked with who was a post bacch--to try to stay away from Intnlt med school as far as possible--it's just a lot of crap you have to deal with, and there can be a a lot of issues with licensing and accredidation and what not. I am not sure of the speicifics, but the point was that try as hard as u can,even if it requires doing a masters program or some other post-grad work to raise your gpa, mcat scroe, etc. to get into a U.S med school.

Good luck with your deciions.

HT

 

[group_theory]

Also keep in mind that DOs can be licensed in all 50 states (5 of which require a DO internship or AOA approval of an ACGME internship). Other than the DO internship requirement in 5 states, there are no additional hurdles that DOs need to do to get licensed (compare to a US MD)

For IMGs, some states have additional hoops that students must be aware of, such as greenbook rotations ONLY, or a neurology rotations, or no electives taken outside affliated hospitals, etc. Again, it depends on the school and the states you intend to practice in.

In the end, it's a personal decision and I can't fault anyone for picking one over another. If you can live in another country (sometimes even 3rd world living conditions) and thrive in medical school (and manage to jump through the hurdles and avoid being weeded out) and gain practice rights in the US - then congratulations, because it certainly is no small feat.


GT
PCOM 2007

 

[Shinken]

Also keep in mind that DOs can be licensed in all 50 states (5 of which require a DO internship or AOA approval of an ACGME internship). Other than the DO internship requirement in 5 states, there are no additional hurdles that DOs need to do to get licensed (compare to a US MD)

For IMGs, some states have additional hoops that students must be aware of, such as greenbook rotations ONLY, or a neurology rotations, or no electives taken outside affliated hospitals, etc. Again, it depends on the school and the states you intend to practice in.

Don't forget the current hurdle that IMGs must deal with in Texas.