URM Friendly Schools

[kellyk12]

Is there such a thing as URM friendly schools? Im applying next cycle and am currently filling out my school list. If anyone had a positive experience at a second look or currently really enjoys the school they are at and feels they are treated equally as a URM please let me know!

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[Luftwaffle]

I'd assume the HBCUs are! but that also depends on if you're black or not, not to imply that they actively exclude non black students, but the sense of ethnic isolation might still be there if one is a nonblack URM at an HBCU.

 

[Throwaway5129]

I would say Uchicago.

 

[deleted480308]

All of them. They are all wanting to show they can recruit urm applicants

 

[Throwaway5129]

All of them. They are all wanting to show they can recruit urm applicants

I wouldn't describe programs put on probation for lack of diversity as URM friendly schools. There are definitely URM unfriendly schools.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

I wouldn't describe programs put on probation for lack of diversity as URM friendly schools. There are definitely URM unfriendly schools.

What school(s) have been put on probation for this? I didn't even know this was possible

 

[Throwaway5129]

What school(s) have been put on probation for this? I didn't even know this was possible

I believe University of Missouri.

 

[deleted480308]

I wouldn't describe programs put on probation for lack of diversity as URM friendly schools. There are definitely URM unfriendly schools.

Still wanted urm students, just didn’t get them unless I’m not remembering the story right. Feel free to link something otherwise because I’d like to get more informed if I was wrong

 

[Throwaway5129]

Still wanted urm students, just didn’t get them unless I’m not remembering the story right. Feel free to link something otherwise because I’d like to get more informed if I was wrong

I don't believe so. If they wanted URM students their effort is abysmal because they had next to none. They also lacked ORM students.

 

[deleted480308]

I don't believe so. If they wanted URM students their effort is abysmal because they had next to none. They also lacked ORM students.

So nothing to substantiate that?

 

[Goro]

I wouldn't describe programs put on probation for lack of diversity as URM friendly schools. There are definitely URM unfriendly schools.

Not being able to recruit qualified students (because they can go elsewhere, and the pool is finite to begin with) is NOT the same as being URM unfriendly.

 

[Throwaway5129]

So nothing to substantiate that?

There's a myriad of anecdote evidence from students, some of which I know personally about the kind of institution Missouri is, and its also fairly easy to find online from their current and past students.

 

[deleted480308]

There's a myriad of anecdote evidence from students, some of which I know personally about the kind of institution Missouri is, and its also fairly easy to find online from their current and past students.

We’re all here, so let’s hear it

 

[Throwaway5129]

We’re all here, so let’s hear it

I'm not sure if we're allowed to post links here, but on medical school reddit there's several threads about this, it's fairly easy to find.

 

[deleted480308]

I'm not sure if we're allowed to post links here, but on medical school reddit there's several threads about this, it's fairly easy to find.

You’re allowed, post away

 

[vidiviciveni]

You’re allowed, post away

Diversify or else: This Missouri medical school’s urgent plan to save its accreditation
"But in interviews with STAT, more than a half dozen current and former students described a campus that has made it harder for them to succeed. Some said that MU’s lack of diversity means they are more likely to be mistaken for a janitor, to be singled out for ID checks by campus security, or to hear physicians make off-handed remarks about patients of color. They said it was more difficult for them to thrive here than white students. They said they have dealt with subtle and overt displays of racism. And some have questioned whether they made a mistake deciding to attend the school."

 

[theKingLT]

Not being able to recruit qualified students (because they can go elsewhere, and the pool is finite to begin with) is NOT the same as being URM unfriendly.

Can a school be put on probation simply for not having X percent of URM students? I always thought it was more that they had to have policies and programs in place (pipeline programs, financial aid, etc.) to recruit URM and if they still couldn't get enough they were at least covered from an LCME standpoint.

 

[deleted480308]

Diversify or else: This Missouri medical school’s urgent plan to save its accreditation
"But in interviews with STAT, more than a half dozen current and former students described a campus that has made it harder for them to succeed. Some said that MU’s lack of diversity means they are more likely to be mistaken for a janitor, to be singled out for ID checks by campus security, or to hear physicians make off-handed remarks about patients of color. They said it was more difficult for them to thrive here than white students. They said they have dealt with subtle and overt displays of racism. And some have questioned whether they made a mistake deciding to attend the school."

So subjective things that aren’t even objectively shown to be true?

Do you actually have anything?

 

[vidiviciveni]

So subjective things that aren’t even objectively shown to be true?

Do you actually have anything?

Lol, another poster stated there was plenty of anecdotal evidence. I simply provided one such link you were too lazy to look for on your own.

 

[Goro]

Can a school be put on probation simply for not having X percent of URM students? I always thought it was more that they had to have policies and programs in place (pipeline programs, financial aid, etc.) to recruit URM and if they still couldn't get enough they were at least covered from an LCME standpoint.

Yup. My understanding is at schools at least have to make decent efforts to try and recruit urm students. There's several ways they could go about fixing the problem, increase scholarships, more gressive recruiting, and reaching out to alumni

 

[Throwaway5129]

You’re allowed, post away

 

[Throwaway5129]

So subjective things that aren’t even objectively shown to be true?

Do you actually have anything?

I'm guessing your not URM are you? The notion that every institution is welcoming and friendly to URM students is extremely foolish.

 

[deleted480308]

I read the article. And again the most concrete thing in there is someone claiming to hear the n-word used when relaying a comedy sketch in conversation.

One of the main detractors only notes he is criticized for his demeanor and he attributes it to racism without considering he might just need to adjust his demeanor.

There just might some large racist issues there but they certainly aren’t documented well there. We have to be careful about calling wolf if there isn’t definitely a wolf

 

[precisiongraphic]

I'm not a SJW by any definition but I read the STAT article and got the opposite opinion. If there are that few AAs in the class and on rotations and in the medical community and the AA students don't feel supported or accepted, then that is going to lead to loss of students through attrition or failures. It looks to me like MU wanted URM students but is not getting any traction and maybe are not even in the right frame of mind. They could start with throwing more scholarship money at the problem - full scholarships, COA, stipends whatever: Just offering instate tuition won't do it. Appointing the dean like they did might help. Mentorship might help. Outreach might help. But right now they have a pretty glaring problem and they are not addressing it with alacrity - money would be a good start.

And this post that I've quoted below doesn't really go to the heart of the problem. The wolf isn't demeanor or whatever, it's enrollment, support and getting the URM percentage to remain above zero. Only one black student in entering class of 2014? That's terrible.

I read the article. And again the most concrete thing in there is someone claiming to hear the n-word used when relaying a comedy sketch in conversation.

One of the main detractors only notes he is criticized for his demeanor and he attributes it to racism without considering he might just need to adjust his demeanor.

There just might some large racist issues there but they certainly aren’t documented well there. We have to be careful about calling wolf if there isn’t definitely a wolf

 

[deleted480308]

I'm not a SJW by any definition but I read the STAT article and got the opposite opinion. If there are that few AAs in the class and on rotations and in the medical community and the AA students don't feel supported or accepted, then that is going to lead to loss of students through attrition or failures. It looks to me like MU wanted URM students but is not getting any traction and maybe are not even in the right frame of mind. They could start with throwing more scholarship money at the problem - full scholarships, COA, stipends whatever: Just offering instate tuition won't do it. Appointing the dean like they did might help. Mentorship might help. Outreach might help. But right now they have a pretty glaring problem and they are not addressing it with alacrity - money would be a good start.

And this post that I've quoted below doesn't really go to the heart of the problem. The wolf isn't demeanor or whatever, it's enrollment, support and getting the URM percentage to remain above zero. Only one black student in entering class of 2014? That's terrible.

What you just said is the school has no objective evidence shown of mistreatment based on race and the best way to assuage subjective concerns is to bribe urm students.

There is nothing “terrible “ about any racial distribution numbers in any school unless there is actual racial discrimination causing those numbers

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'd assume the HBCUs are! but that also depends on if you're black or not, not to imply that they actively exclude non black students, but the sense of ethnic isolation might still be there if one is a nonblack URM at an HBCU.

HBUs treat whites as minorities. I have several friends who went to Southern University of Louisiana because they got minority scholarships. The school isn't known for its quality, except for nursing.

 

[Throwaway5129]

What you just said is the school has no objective evidence shown of mistreatment based on race and the best way to assuage subjective concerns is to bribe urm students.

There is nothing “terrible “ about any racial distribution numbers in any school unless there is actual racial discrimination causing those numbers

So are you just ignoring the countless anecdotal stories from students at Missouri? Detailing an extremely unsupportive atmosphere for URMs (and ORMs) and those with disabilities?

 

[deleted480308]

So are you just ignoring the countless anecdotal stories from students at Missouri? Detailing an extremely unsupportive atmosphere for URMs (and ORMs) and those with disabilities?

Specifically which action/event/policy do you think the school was wrong about? Not vague atmosphere, but specific thing

 

[precisiongraphic]

What you just said is the school has no objective evidence shown of mistreatment based on race and the best way to assuage subjective concerns is to bribe urm students.

There is nothing “terrible “ about any racial distribution numbers in any school unless there is actual racial discrimination causing those numbers

You're just being obtuse just to be difficult. Your argument is not even related to mine, I'm not saying that mistreatment did or did not occur. I don't believe in quotas or affirmative action but to have such a hostile environment and 1-3 black students a year in at a state school in a state with a 30% black population is unacceptable in 2018. My argument is that they need to increase the numbers, support those students to ensure that they gradate and to eliminate any overt discrimination.

Specifically which action/event/policy do you think the school was wrong about? Not vague atmosphere, but specific thing

I think that while they have not done anything "demonstrably" wrong, having an environment that encourages discrimination or a hostile atmosphere is wrong and discriminatory on its face. Under the federal EEOC laws, a policy that results in discrimination or adverse impacts without the intent to discriminate is called "disparate impact" and is illegal. Having a medical school that has no or negligible minorities is an adverse impact is a result of discrimination. It doesn't have to be "disparate treatment" if the result is no minorities.

I'm not sure if you're just being closed minded on purpose or if you're playing devil's advocate or if you really think that nothing should be done to increase minority enrollment in medical schools. Again, this isn't about quotas or lowering admissions standards but about a supportive environment and effective outreach and mentoring of minority students.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I also don’t understand how any amount of disproportionality of race equates to being non URM friendly. If everyone is treated equally, that is not being unfriendly.

Giving scholarships to URM equates to bribing minorities to come to your school so you won’t look racist.

This is totally different than giving minorities a reason to come to your school by means of offering minority history related coursework, or other non prejudicial means (talking about undergrad here).



Let’s use another analogy. You’re having a party, and you have a diverse friend population. You are hiring caterers, a DJ, the whole works. To ensure everyone comes, do you

A: offer a variety of food choices, musical types, etc

B: have the man at the door charge the more likely people to want to come, and offer the less likely people to come no cover charge.

Which do you think would allow for diversity while preventing discord of people feeling like the environment is biased and non prejudicial?

 

[deleted480308]

You're just being obtuse just to be difficult. Your argument is not even related to mine, I'm not saying that mistreatment did or did not occur. I don't believe in quotas or affirmative action but to have such a hostile environment and 1-3 black students a year in at a state school in a state with a 30% black population is unacceptable in 2018. My argument is that they need to increase the numbers, support those students to ensure that they gradate and to eliminate any overt discrimination.



I think that while they have not done anything "demonstrably" wrong, having an environment that encourages discrimination or a hostile atmosphere is wrong and discriminatory on its face. Under the federal EEOC laws, a policy that results in discrimination or adverse impacts without the intent to discriminate is called "disparate impact" and is illegal. Having a medical school that has no or negligible minorities is an adverse impact is a result of discrimination. It doesn't have to be "disparate treatment" if the result is no minorities.

I'm not sure if you're just being closed minded on purpose or if you're playing devil's advocate or if you really think that nothing should be done to increase minority enrollment in medical schools. Again, this isn't about quotas or lowering admissions standards but about a supportive environment and effective outreach and mentoring of minority students.

But you are absolutely asking for overt discrimination. You want programs and recruitment specifically based on race.

You also keep saying you don't want quotas but your main argument is that despite not having proven any overt discrimination against URM students that the mere number of URM students is enough to fault the school. If you want to fault the school for the number of URM students, that is a quota. You are being coy and not revealing what exact number makes you happy, but it is a number you are pinning a lot of your argument too.

You find some overt discrimination, and I'm with you in stamping that crap out. But you can't start faulting someone just because they fail to meet your racially specific ideals for a matriculating class

 

[precisiongraphic]

But you are absolutely asking for overt discrimination. You want programs and recruitment specifically based on race.

I am not asking for quotas or overt discrimination. But there is nothing wrong with programs or recruitment for minorities.

What I am saying is that MU needs to meet the LCME standards for diversification or stop granting MD degrees. It's not my rule and my not wanting enrollment by quota is not going to change anything.

This is my last post here and I think neither you nor I are URM applicants so it's pretty useless to argue.

But I'm (likely) a lot older than you and have been hiring people and supervising people for over 40 years. I'm in finance and I'm also a professor. And I've also been the only woman in a finance department of 30+ people with all male managers. There is absolutely a way to support minorities and make them feel like they can succeed and overt discrimination by MU or not, that is not happening. You're being willfully blind if you don't think that there are AA students who are there feeling uncomfortable.

I'm not arguing for quotas - I've hired people and would not have wanted to be forced to hire people based on a quota. But having a diversity rule in place from LCME, MU is just not working hard enough to recruit, enroll, support and graduate URMs, specifically AA. There may not be big enough percentage of AA applicants per the population but other schools are recruiting qualified applicants and MU needs to follow the rules. They likely need to mentor their own undergraduates, increase full scholarships and yes, create a mentoring structure that makes URM medical students feel supported. Shouldn't MU want its students to succeed?

And as a doctor, I hope that you are doing your best to help minority students fit in, succeed and become strong doctors because that's a good alternative to quotas.

 

[deleted480308]

I am not asking for quotas or overt discrimination. But there is nothing wrong with programs or recruitment for minorities.

What I am saying is that MU needs to meet the LCME standards for diversification or stop granting MD degrees. It's not my rule and my not wanting enrollment by quota is not going to change anything.

This is my last post here and I think neither you nor I are URM applicants so it's pretty useless to argue.

But I'm (likely) a lot older than you and have been hiring people and supervising people for over 40 years. I'm in finance and I'm also a professor. And I've also been the only woman in a finance department of 30+ people with all male managers. There is absolutely a way to support minorities and make them feel like they can succeed and overt discrimination by MU or not, that is not happening. You're being willfully blind if you don't think that there are AA students who are there feeling uncomfortable.

I'm not arguing for quotas - I've hired people and would not have wanted to be forced to hire people based on a quota. But having a diversity rule in place from LCME, MU is just not working hard enough to recruit, enroll, support and graduate URMs, specifically AA. There may not be big enough percentage of AA applicants per the population but other schools are recruiting qualified applicants and MU needs to follow the rules. They likely need to mentor their own undergraduates, increase full scholarships and yes, create a mentoring structure that makes URM medical students feel supported. Shouldn't MU want its students to succeed?

And as a doctor, I hope that you are doing your best to help minority students fit in, succeed and become strong doctors because that's a good alternative to quotas.

So do you oppose the lcme rule then?

It sure seemed like you were advocating for the existence of racial percentage minimums and programs/assistance that would not be available to all students based on their race/gender etc

 

[puahate]

Hbcus
U Chi
UCSF

 

[Throwaway5129]

Specifically which action/event/policy do you think the school was wrong about? Not vague atmosphere, but specific thing

So the atmosphere is not relevant? Wow. By the countless testimonies from students and residents, they clearly cultivate a climate, not present at MANY other schools, that promotes harassment/discrimination of URMs, ORMs, and the disabled.

 

[deleted480308]

So the atmosphere is not relevant? Wow. By the countless testimonies from students and residents, they clearly cultivate a climate, not present at MANY other schools, that promotes harassment/discrimination of URMs, ORMs, and the disabled.

what specific wrong did the school perpetrate on applicants/students? what policy do they need to change, what person is doing students wrong and what wrong are they doing? what do you want done besides bribing those students and/or an arbitrary minimum number of them that you consider appropriate?

 

[hurtem&healem]

what specific wrong did the school perpetrate on applicants/students? what policy do they need to change, what person is doing students wrong and what wrong are they doing? what do you want done besides bribing those students and/or an arbitrary minimum number of them that you consider appropriate?

To keep with your party analogy. There's a saying about a lot of unpopular bars/clubs, "Nobody wants to go there because nobody goes there."

Given MU's history of having a bad atmosphere for AA students (anecdotal or not, it has the same effect on future enrollment), they are going to have to do something drastic to bring the first few rounds of those students back and overcome that reputation.

Back to the party... I worked at a "last call" bar; nobody ever came in until 12:30. To entice an earlier crowd, we offered drink specials until 11. All of sudden we weren't only busy for last call. To get that specific crowd that we wanted, we offered them a deal that we didn't give our normal crowd. And it worked.

 

[deleted480308]

To keep with your party analogy. There's a saying about a lot of unpopular bars/clubs, "Nobody wants to go there because nobody goes there."

Given MU's history of having a bad atmosphere for AA students (anecdotal or not, it has the same effect on future enrollment), they are going to have to do something drastic to bring the first few rounds of those students back and overcome that reputation.

Back to the party... I worked at a "last call" bar; nobody ever came in until 12:30. To entice an earlier crowd, we offered drink specials until 11. All of sudden we weren't only busy for last call. To get that specific crowd that we wanted, we offered them a deal that we didn't give our normal crowd. And it worked.

And if a school had no qualied applicants and was ar risk of bankruptcy over that, I would totally get offering tuition reductions to students of all races

 

[aayz345]

I would say Uchicago.

Just curious but what makes Pritzker urm friendly?

 

[tanbrucewayne]

Just curious but what makes Pritzker urm friendly?

I think their mission, taking care of their community in the south side of Chicago, means that they look for certain characteristics. Just my impression from my interview day and speaking with students tho

 

[theKingLT]

I think their mission, taking care of their community in the south side of Chicago, means that they look for certain characteristics. Just my impression from my interview day and speaking with students tho

^^^ this. I can't speak to any specific policies as I'm just an applicant, but all of my interviewers there asked about my experience working with people of diverse backgrounds so it's definitely something they select for among their non-URM students. I don't know if it's for the patients, or to create a better environment for the URM students, or more likely a combination of both, but they like diversity even more than most schools among URM and non-URM applicants

 

[deleted851433]

To answer OP consider Medical College of Georgia.
-optional prematriculation program for minority students and nontraditional students
-minority clinics (Clinica Latina, Asian Clinic, Equality Clinic for lgbt) that students can lead and volunteer for
-diverse clinical faculty (easy to find URM mentors) - academic and clinical faculty are generally easy to approach too.
-generally supportive environment among students

I do feel that diversity is valued overall. The representation of URMs still doesn't match the population of the state so there is room to grow in that regard but certainly I doubt anyone feels alone in being a URM at MCG - at least in the preclinical years which is all I can comment on.

 

[Throwaway5129]

Hbcus
U Chi
UCSF

Why do you say UCSF?

 

[hesstess]

Brown
Wake forest
GW
Hopkins

 

[Throwaway5129]

Brown
Wake forest
GW
Hopkins

Can you explain why those schools? Esp why hopkins?

 

[878956]

I disagree with Hopkins. I don't think Hopkins is a supportive environment for URMS.

 

[theKingLT]

I disagree with Hopkins. I don't think Hopkins is a supportive environment for URMS.

OK now I'm curious. You can't just say they're not supportive and not explain why ???

 

[878956]

OK now I'm curious. You can't just say they're not supportive and not explain why ???

PM me.

 

[Wahkoon]

Why do you say UCSF?

I would say UCSF because their class demographics are the most reflective of the US population, with significant enrollment of Hispanic and African-American students. Also, White Coats for Black Lives started at UCSF. The school's urban situation within San Francisco also allows for heavy interaction with underserved, urban populations (e.g, PRIME-US).

 

[967038]

Hopkins is notorious for being URM-unfriendly on all levels which is a light word to say the least. I guess we like to be professional on SND so I'll keep it at that. Racism doesn't have to be documented to exist and fellow URMs obviously know that as facts.

I was looking at MPH programs at Johns Hopkins at this is what I found: https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-sp...ool-of-Public-Health-from-personal-experience (scroll down). Of course, the Henrietta Lacks story and lack of demonstrated substantial (non-bare minimum) change from that in the health world is a red flag as well.

I visited GWU and it depends on what you define as a URM-friendly schools - which depends on the person most likely. GWU had a fairly diverse student body with an emphasis on collaboration rather than competition. They are definitely trying and say they are committed to social justice. They are doing the work by opening up a partnership in DC's SE area I believe over the past summer. From my visit, it seemed like a place where URMs can survive, enjoy their time there, and not have to sue anybody.

Coming from an undergrad that is advertised a similar social justice oriented way, I would guess they have issues as well that might not be revealed on SDN. The fact that they recently started diversifying the diseases Black patients have in their cases is a red flag for me and indicates that there will be a lot more fight to go. This is not comparing it to other institutions since I would not attend an institution that does less than this.

Where are URM's thriving at? This is a question I'd love to have answered by a URM!!