UQ-Ochsner 2014

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nybgrus said:
The site visit is on, with the idea that a visit to New Orleans could well obviate the need for one to Brisbane.
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I'm just going to quote this and let it speak for itself.
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Sent off my application today and it should be there by Friday. 6-8 weeks of waiting for a response here I come!
 
MCAT 28P (8V 9P 11B) 3.3 undergrad (overall and science) 1st semester of graduate work 3.7

Well written essays (not sure how much that impacts the application)

What are my chances?

And does it really take 6-8 weeks or can one find out in a shorter period of time?
 
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I'd say you have a shot. It will depend a lot on your ECs and genuine desire to study in Australia.

If you have strong leadership/volunteer in medical related activity and they feel you are serious about going to Australia you will prob be in.

Btw, I found out less than a week after completing submission.
 
pre med 2014 said:
I'd say you have a shot. It will depend a lot on your ECs and genuine desire to study in Australia.

If you have strong leadership/volunteer in medical related activity and they feel you are serious about going to Australia you will prob be in.

Btw, I found out less than a week after completing submission.
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Less than a week!? That is a pretty fast turn around time. They contacted you by email right?

My ECs are pretty good and I think I conveyed that I would like to attend pretty well.

Do you mind me asking what your stats were?
 
Did you hear back recently?

What were your stats if you do not mind me asking.
 
Just got accepted via email for January 2014!!!

2.9 gpa undergrad Bmed engineering
35 MCAT :p
 
Just got in about 5 minutes ago!

See you in Aussie Land
 
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cjruther said:
There we go! Congratulations my friend!
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Thank you! I am pretty stoked about attending.

Now I have to get the 3Gs together for the deposit and then all the rest of the stuff.

Do you know if you are going to attend?
 
pre med 2014 said:
Bottom line though is that their minimum MCAT of 24 is the median at a lot of DOs

And their median is 28.6 is top tier DO/low tier MD so the caliber of students can't be horrible
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Those with low MCATs generally struggle to get good grades in med school. That's why those requiring supplementary exams are always the internationals, because UQ has the bar set very low for acceptance. However, there are a few high-scoring internationals every year.

nybgrus said:
Regarding MCAT scores - once again, those predict academic success in medical school and USMLE but not how good a doctor you will be and is acknowledged to be a rather limited and often arbitrary metric used to cull legions of applicants.
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PS/BS MCAT %tiles are directly correlated with actual USMLE Step1 performance (lateral-thinking / non-verbal concept manipulation unrelated to working memory).

VR MCAT does not bear as strong a relation with actual Step1 performance, but is instead directly correlated with one's potential ceiling on the Step1 if he or she were to devote him or herself. It is also inversely correlated with the amount of time required to retain material (non-verbal and verbal working memory), so VR directly correlates with grades in medical school.
 
Phloston said:
Those with low MCATs generally struggle to get good grades in med school. That's why those requiring supplementary exams are always the internationals, because UQ has the bar set very low for acceptance. However, there are a few high-scoring internationals every year.



PS/BS MCAT %tiles are directly correlated with actual USMLE Step1 performance (lateral-thinking / non-verbal concept manipulation unrelated to working memory).

VR MCAT does not bear as strong a relation with actual Step1 performance, but is instead directly correlated with one's potential ceiling on the Step1 if he or she were to devote him or herself. It is also inversely correlated with the amount of time required to retain the same material (non-verbal and verbal working memory), so VR directly correlates with grades in medical school (and in general).
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I think nearly everyone I know who has failed or needed a supplementary exam was Australiaa/New Zealander. Interesting how our experiences have been so different

I scored 15 VR. Does that mean I will ace the USMLE?
 
A 15VR would mean a 270+ should be a given if you work hard.

On the other hand, your PS/BS %tiles are more likely to determine your actual score.
 
Phloston said:
A 15VR would mean a 270+ should be a given if you work hard (very strong working memory).

On the other hand, your PS/BS %tiles are more likely to determine your actual score.
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OK because I had an 11 PS and 8 BS and my lowest score at UQ from years 1 and 2 was a 6, despite having no science background and competing against domestics who already held degrees in "medical studies".
 
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As mentioned, VR directly correlates with medical school grades and ceiling on the Step1.

The BS/PS %tiles don't particularly correlate with grades because very little of the material assessed in medical school actually requires the student to directly draw from his or her background.

The reason BS/PS better correlate with Step1 overall is because most of that exam requires non-verbal lateral-thinking necessitating an understanding of the basic sciences.
 
How did you study for it? If I am confident in my knowledge of the biomedical science, is just taking the NBME and practice exam sufficient? Assume I just want to do something within Internal Medicine.
 
ian2013 said:
Thank you! I am pretty stoked about attending.

Now I have to get the 3Gs together for the deposit and then all the rest of the stuff.

Do you know if you are going to attend?
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Felicitations!!!
 
ian2013 said:
Thank you! I am pretty stoked about attending.

Now I have to get the 3Gs together for the deposit and then all the rest of the stuff.

Do you know if you are going to attend?
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It's about 6 grand, you have to pay the health insurance fee but that is refundable if you don't go

The 3K is non refundable
 
They give you the AUD amount for the health insurance which is about 2250 in US dollars. ~$5250 eeep! there goes most of my savings account.
 
Nygbrus,

I have a couple of questions.

(1) Does the ~56,000 in tuition include living expenses, or is that strictly tuition (I am assuming it is strictly tuition, but am hopeful it may be all inclusive of tuition and living expenses!) ?

(2) For the FASA, etc, I am a bit confused as to what the yearly student sub or unsub loan limits are for medical school- actually from what I understand there is no subsidized loans available for graduate or medical students any longer (http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/staffordloanlimits.htm)

- meaning we have a limit of some 20k/year for grad/professional school:

http://www.finaid.org/loans/studentloan.phtml

This says there is a limit of 138k total for professional/grad students but how is that possible if the limit for grad/professional students is some 20k/year?? Then I found this site:


http://www.loyno.edu/financialaid/federal-student-loan-changes-2012-2013

Which says we can get some 47k per year or medicals school.but even then, 47 multiplied by 4 exceeds the 138k- unless 138k aggregate total is unique to non medical school , grad schools, etc...

Also, what are we to do, or how do we make up the diff between that and the tuition (some 9k) AND then how do we cover living expenses if the 56k price shown on mededpath is not inclusive of cost of living expenses? Grad PlUS Loans? How easy are those to secure if we have poor credit ( I divorced recently and my credit is a disaster).

I did also find this, but it doesn't list total limits, amounts, etc:

http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/hpsl.htm

https://www.aamc.org/advocacy/meded/79232/federal_student_loans.html

3) Last, and on a diff note..I just read this on valuemd and I have to say it is making me a little bit nervous, and was wondering if you wouldn't mind addressing it please? Is this just a post by an unhappy flunk out of UQ Oschner or some sort of disgruntled attrition student, or is there any truth to it? What academic support systems are in place at UQ if say a student struggles academically?

I am most concerned with eigenwelt_nm post on Dec 10, 2011

http://www.valuemd.com/australian-medical-schools/198129-uq-ochsner-class-2011-a.html

I apologize in advance for all the questions and confusion. Also, I have read all your posts on this thread and another regarding UQ and how it will most likely be accredited in USA and for the most part I am not too concerned and I think you exercised great patience with a couple of people in another thread regarding those issues..which is why I was shocked when I came across the above post on value md....oh, also, any word on the Cali site visit lately?

Regards & Confused,
Char :)
 
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The 56K is tuition only. However, I believe it includes Kaplan usmle prep during year 2. Double check that don't quote me on it.

Do not worry about loans, they will give them to you. If you couldn't get the loans the program would not exist.

As for failing out, the risk is just the same if you go to American school. You get bad grades and you're screwed at any med school. If you fail at UQ-O at least it's easier to cry on the beach in Australia than in a big cold city.
 
Thank you, I appreciate your input.

However, I still need more specific details on how the loan limits are structured and how the gaps after the federally funded student loans max the limit, are filled. Not everyone is eligible for private loans or direct Plus Loans. Some of us are career changers and are coming into this process with substantial student debt already, and/or less than perfect credit history. I cannot just put on blinders and think "oh it will be covered"..not saying that is what you are doing, and I apologize ahead of time if that comes across in an inappreciative manner, as I do appreciate you taking the time to answer me, but you may be in a better position to secure financing for those gaps I mentioned, than I am and hence may have no need to worry about it? (I don't know you obviously, so I could be completely wrong). Point is, for me personally, before I dish out my own money to meet a 3k deposit,and then a 2500 chunk of change for health insurance, I need to figure this stuff out. :)
 
The 2500 health cost is refundable if you do not go. If you already have large amounts of student loans it could very well be an issue. I'm not sure how it all works. If for some strange reason I didn't get FAFSA which is extremely rare I know I can get loans from my bank at 10% interest

The general consensus is there have to be some pretty outstanding issues to not get the FAFSA loans. You can take out Maximum the tuition plus advertised cost of living. Something around 80K a year.
 
Thank you, again! I was not aware of the 2500 being refundable, but I guess that makes sense. I have been talking with MedEdPath and find they don't always necessarily know all the details and sometimes may even say stuff that may be slightly inaccurate...for instance, talking with them gives the impression the program accepts ANYONE as long as they have a min GPA of? 2.7? and MCAT of 24 (8,8,8 min)..but I later read that was not the case..that is just the minimum for your application to be accepted...which is fine by me... I just think they could use a lil polishing up on the information dissemination.

Anyhow, I have not been able to find or confirm that one can take out up to 80k in federal loans per year..again the max I found was 47/year for the unsub loans...do you mind if I ask, where is the 33k difference you are quoting coming from? Is it Direct PLUS loans? Sorry for all the questions!
 
That is the minimum to submit. The median matriculant is 3.4/29 GPA, on par with top end DO/low-tier MD. Not exceptional stats but not bad either.

Honestly I am not worrying about loans, I will start looking into it in about a month or two and I already have a plane ticket to Australia (I wasn't even concerned during the government shutdown). I've never heard on SDN of anyone not getting a loan, maybe it happens more for a bachelors but I never heard of it for med school. Of course I have great credit, no liens, no student loans etc... If you have something huge like bankruptcy or something I would look into more to double check. But FAFSA website has all the stuff like requirements to be eligible. (I think you can't have a lien on a car? That can't be right though cause that's like everyone with a monthly payment for a car)

Bottom line is, Unless you are a triple felon filing for bankruptcy you are probably good. Sorry I can't answer your question precisely as I have not even started looking into much. I'm planning on taking out 56K plus about another 15K for living expenses. I think you do have to do grad plus for additional loans, but again I'm not sure yet.
 
LOL @ Unless you are a triple felon filing for bankruptcy you are probably good.

My mum wants me to buy the plane ticket already, but I haven't heard back yet.. I literally just found out about the program and only applied recently, but MedEdPath made it sound like I'd be a shoe-in if I get my app processed in time to get one of the last 20 spots... that sounded suspect to me, and I am sure they meant well, but I am not naive enough to take that seriously. My mum, on the other hand, well, I probably should not have confided in her because, well, it was all I could do to prevent her from buying Australian Flags and hanging them up all over her house!

I am not a felon, there is no bankruptcy, and have no liens....just prior student loan debt and a nasty divorce from two years ago that left me broke, disheartened, and not to mention left my credit and my finances torn to shreds. But, C'est La Vie! If I am accepted to UQ, and I can finance it, I am excited about attending. My concern then would be falling in love with Oz and not being able to attain either PR or an internship there, and thus not being able to practice there.
 
It's designed to produce graduates to practice in the US, but I'm pretty sure you can practice in OZ. You go back during year 4 for a 8 week rotation precisely so you are eligible to practice in oz, otherwise it makes no sense why they would sent you back to oz for 8 weeks.
 
pre med 2014 said:
It's designed to produce graduates to practice in the US, but I'm pretty sure you can practice in OZ. You go back during year 4 for a 8 week rotation precisely so you are eligible to practice in oz, otherwise it makes no sense why they would sent you back to oz for 8 weeks.
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Realistically if you do the Ochsner program you have a 0% chance of getting an internship spot back in Australia.

The 8 week rotation is all about $$$$$$$$$, nothing to do with the school caring about your dual licensing ability, so be smart about it if you aren't 100% sure you want to be in America
 
A lot of issues to address. I will do my best to do so briefly. I'll start with the easy stuff:

"Realistically if you do the Ochsner program you have a 0% chance of getting an internship spot back in Australia.

The 8 week rotation is all about $$$$$$$$$, nothing to do with the school caring about your dual licensing ability, so be smart about it if you aren't 100% sure you want to be in America"

While perhaps a grain of truth is hiding there, this is a ridiculous statement. Just this year 2 Ochsner students had internship spots in Australia.

Furthermore, the 8 week rotation has NOTHING to do with money. NOBODY gets more money for you coming back. It is, unquestionably, 100% about accreditation. Not your dual licensing ability either. You need to understand that the Australian Medical Council accredits Aussie med schools. They do not have a paradigm to accredit a school that produces students for foreign internships and NOT Aussie internships. As such, the only way they could (would) accredit THE ENTIRE SoM (not just the Ochsner part, because in reality there is no legal, accreditation, or structural difference whatsoever) would be if they felt that Ochsner grads were qualified to be Aussie interns. They were NOT looking to make sure we could be US interns and have dual licensure, but only that the SINGLE program that is UQ SoM - whether that meant Ochsner students or "traditionals" - could be Aussie interns in their eyes.

Based on precedent what that meant was 16 weeks of hospital based clinical experience in Australia. Hence why our Year 1 elective must be done in Australia (instead of anywhere in the world like other UQ students) and be 8 weeks long and why we must return for one 8 week rotation in Year 4.

Now, we could argue whether this actually makes any sense or makes us more or less qualified to be Aussie interns, or whatever, and I would be right there with you, but it has absolutely nothing to do with money (it can't) nor anything to do with ensuring DUAL licensure, but entirely to do with the accreditation paradigm of the AMC and what was needed to have the Ochsner cohort be a part of a single, unified, medical education program in which all students were considered to be equivalently adequately trained.

How do I know this? Because I sat in front of the AMC for a day during the pre-accreditation days as part of a small student panel discussing exactly these issues.

As for GPA/MCAT:

"That is the minimum to submit. The median matriculant is 3.4/29 GPA, on par with top end DO/low-tier MD. Not exceptional stats but not bad either."

Correct. And each year the stats have been climbing. The entire paradigm of UQ admissions - regardless of who you are - is score based. The Aussies not only have to meet certain score cut offs, but lower scoring folks pay a little more.

As competition for spots increases it is without doubt that the scores will increase as well. At first there was too little knowledge about the program to compete for the limited spots. Then they have been consistently increasing the number of spots (which was planned) so competition for spots has been rather low, even though applications have been increasing. This upcoming year (starting 2014) the class size will be maxed at ~120 students (note this does not affect the TOTAL class size, that has been staying relatively stable and in fact decreasing a bit). I anticipate competition to actually begin to grow in the coming years.

That is likely why MEP told you that if you are qualified you will likely get in since that is the paradigm for UQ admissions and the latest increase in class size softened the competition for spots.

As for the finances....

Everything is covered by Stafford Sub, Unsub, and Grad Plus loans. I cannot comment about someone's specific situation if you have really bad credit or assassinated a political figure or something, but in general you will get what you need. My loans come out to around $87k/year total from which tuition is subtracted and I only take out those three loans. So I haven't bothered to read through all the details of the loan stuff and limits and whatnot, but I can assure you that if you can do FAFSA (which 99% of people can) then you will have enough loans to cover everything.

The exception to this is the upfront and start-up costs. The costs of the deposit, health insurance, visa, panel doctor visits for the visa, flights, and your initial rent and deposit plus any other costs in your first few weeks in Australia come from you. You cannot get your loan until after classes start and it usually take a couple weeks for the money to actually come in.

" However, I believe it includes Kaplan usmle prep during year 2. Double check that don't quote me on it."

This is correct. The tuition does include some USMLE study resources, including a copy of First Aid and the Kaplan QBook in year one plus Kaplan and USMLE World QBank subscriptions in Year 2 and the USMLE World Qbank for Step 2 CK in Year 3. It's not huge, but very helpful considering those add up to over $1,000 if you were to get them on your own.
 
Now, to address some of the points that a user eigenwelt_nm made in the link provided over at ValueMD.

Firstly, yes, there are a few disgruntled folks out there. I won't bother going into details since it doesn't really matter - even disgruntled folks can be telling the truth. And the reality is there is a grain of truth to it, but much if it is completely off base, no longer an issue, or so overblown that one may as well disregard the whole of it.

"- extremely high cost of tuition which doesn't reflect the quality of education"

Can't argue with the very high cost. A US state school will absolutely give you vastly more bang for your buck in terms of education. I can compare a little bit to Tulane though, as a group of students who pay MORE than we do in tuition and it is well known that they are the "lazy" med students who feel like they can coast through on the school's name. The point being that it depends on what you feel you need in terms of your education and how you thrive. I'll get into that more later, but yes, it is unquestionable that this program is expensive, as are pretty much all private US med schools and the Carib schools. On that note, I would say you get a VASTLY better education - most notably in the clinical years - at UQ than in the Carib. Anyone trying to tell you that you should do Carib since they prepare you better for the USMLE really doesn't have any idea what (s)he is saying (even though it is true that in that narrow sense the Caribs do actively prepare you better for the USMLE). Happy to get into that more later if need be (just ask on the thread).

"no places for internationals in the Au residency programs after 2014 and the UQ stuff cynically admitting it to your face while accepting 52K+ AUD/ year from you"

Once again, yes and no. Yes, much tougher overall for Aussie intern spots. Yes, tougher for Ochsner cohort students since the Canucks actually need the spots more. Impossible? Not even close. Two Ochsner grads got intern spots in Aus this year. That said, it is not uncommon for internationals to take the spot and then ditch it for US residency which is almost certainly making it harder to get those spots. But of course, your goal should be to get back to the states. Otherwise you should just apply to the regular 4 year UQ program.

"- non-responsive, indifferent, evasive administrative stuff "

A modicum of truth here. In my experience, no more difficult to pin down and get a response from than any other large university. I did my undergrad at UCI and felt they were just a difficult to pin down. Overall though, the administration has been extremely responsive to our needs and requests to within the limits of a large bureaucracy with lots of red tape.

"- SAQ exams get graded without any explanation to a student on what was considered wrong with his/ her answers

- no opportunity for a student to get one-on-one feedback on their performance from a person actually grading the tests"

See above. Also, you can schedule time to review stuff. It just takes your initiative to get it done. It was the same at UCI for me.

"- 1st year lectures given by random educators from all over the school, virtually no MDs lecturing"

This is standard no matter where you go. Usually PhDs lecture in the relevant topics in Year 1 and even in Year 2 even in the US.

"- "self- directed learning" approach where you never know what book/ chapter to read or which resource to refer to for the upcoming exams, you end up wasting lots of time reading through the material you'll never be tested on"

This is more true than others. Lots of free time and self directed time. I personally enjoyed this very much. My friend at a US med school complained about how he knew everything he needed to read but it was all annoying and pedantic stuff that had no bearing on actual medicine. You can always find something to complain about. And if you are the type that needs your hand to be held a lot, you will find this gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself with. If you are independent and motivated you will revel in the freedom.

All that said, the curriculum has changed since that was written and there is much direction and hand holding, though still quite independent.

"- exam questions with errors in them, and i mean a LOT of errors or exam questions on the irrelevant subjects never studied during the current semester ( they just pull the questions from their internal bank of previous years' exams, often w/o checking if the material is even relevant for this year curriculum )"

This is probably the most true of the statements. The quality of exam question and the errors on exams has been an issue we have been pointing out. And there has been improvement as a result. Still plenty of room for improvement, but at least it is headed in the right direction. That said, it really isn't the end of the world and most students who actually study and learn their medicine have zero issue doing well on the exams. It does make getting the highest marks possible much more (annoyingly) difficult, but honestly that really doesn't matter.

"- no opportunity for a student to get one-on-one feedback on their performance from a person actually grading the tests"

This is correct. But I also had no opportunity to get one-on-one feedback on my exams at UCI. (In both places you could schedule a meeting, but I agree that is more difficult to do and not guaranteed)

" no substantial USMLE prep whatsoever, it's your problem how you prepare while studying in the program geared towards Au practitioners"

Correct, but we have indeed put into place plenty of resources to prepare for the USMLE. And the nice part is that USMLE prep covers a very significant amount of what you need to know for UQ and when you get to Year 3, you are FAR ahead of other Year 3 med students as a result of the extra work you have done. It has been commented on over and over again how much better we are than the Tulane and LSU students when it comes time to do our clinical rotations. We are simply far better prepared for that than they are. So yes, you need to ante up and get the work done for the USMLE but unlike US students who are force fed USMLE and only USMLE you are actually poised to really take advantage of your clinical education from day 1. And that is heartily reflected by our Step 2 CK scores which average at least a half standard deviation above the US average.

"- 1st year elective which you have to pay astronomical amout of money for and which no one really needs in the 1st year. Poorly organized, compulsory activity which ends up costing you even more than you anticipated."

Agreed that the elective is not really necessary and you can certainly do it in a way that adds no value (many Aussies use it as a holiday to go to a micronesian island and relax). And you can certainly make it very expensive on yourself. But it needn't be any of those. You can do it cheaply and you can get a lot out of it. Like everything in life and also in this program, it is what you make of it. For me, the really distinct benefit of this program over US program I have had the opportunity to compare to is you get a lot more room and freedom to make what you wish of it and go big or coast by small.

If you can't go big without someone holding your hand the whole way and pushing you every step of the way, I would argue you shouldn't be in med school. You are graduate student in a profession which demands self motivation and learning for the rest of your life. Do you really think that in 20 years someone will be telling you what you need to be reading in order to stay current with your practice? Then why will you be whinging like it is the end of the world when you have to start doing that in med school?
 
There is a 0% chance that anyone from Ochsner will get an Australian internship past 2014.

I said the 8 week rotation in Australia is about $$$$$$$$$$ because it was a bargaining piece by the school and the AMC and AMA to gain accreditation. If you think UQ, or any other university for that matter,cares about you beyond taking your money and then washing its hands of you the instant it receives your tuition, you are absolutely delusional.

And especially with North Americans staying on for internship for a few months and then returning back to North America (QLD Health just now created a clause stating you will be responsible to pay up to $150,000 if you drop out of your internship) there is absolutely no way an Ochsner student (a program designed to get you back to the States) will secure an internship in Australia.

I have had several physicians say to me outright and verbatim that they believe UQs current program ,with regards to its internationals, is unethical. People only ended up with internships due to the vigorous campaign by the MSA--it's because of institutions like UQ that the entire mess originated, and now UQ is attempting to 'step up' because it knows if it loses its cash cows it will go under.

I'm not sure why you're arguing this with me, as it's 100% transparent to anyone involved in the situation.

I'm just trying to help the guys who are considering going to Australia. I would honestly suggest they consider Griffith, Bond, or any of the Victorian schools over UQ if they have even the slightest hesitation to wanting to return to the US, as I believe each of those schools would provide a better opportunity to remain in Australia.

You also seem to be brushing off the belief amongst many other current students that the Years 1/2 biomedical education leaves quite a bit to be desired, phloston has detailed several of the objective deficiencies, such as the school's outright neglect for Pharmacology and other of the biomedical sciences. Honestly on the Years 1 and 2 exams, someone could just live in a hut in Africa and memorize every word of the student notes and have zero knowledge of what it means, and pull off a 5 on the exams.

Either way it's good for prospective students to get the divergent opinions of current students. I will offer up a final thought, which is that you are involved more personally in the situation as an intermediary/possible mouthpiece for and between the school and the Ochsner program, whereas I am viewing it as a more detached observer who is able to see over the course of my education here what has transpired in this high stakes game.
 
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I agree it is pretty sketchy to take an Australian internship and leave after 6 months to go to us. Not only are they paying to train you but you'd be taking a spot from a local who would have stayed to serve the community.

That being said I don't see how the action of one individual makes the entire program 'unethical' the same behavior could be done from any Australian med school since the academic calendar is shifted 6 months.

As for your suggestion to go to other schools, well that's ridiculous. Flinders is 52K and UQ-O is 56.5K. Every other med school in Australia is 70K a year which is pretty ridiculous even for top one percenters
 
pre med 2014 said:
I agree it is pretty sketchy to take an Australian internship and leave after 6 months to go to us. Not only are they paying to train you but you'd be taking a spot from a local who would have stayed to serve the community.

That being said I don't see how the action of one individual makes the entire program 'unethical' the same behavior could be done from any Australian med school since the academic calendar is shifted 6 months.

As for your suggestion to go to other schools, well that's ridiculous. Flinders is 52K and UQ-O is 56.5K. Every other med school in Australia is 70K a year which is pretty ridiculous even for top one percenters
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I wasn't calling that unethical. I actually don't blame any North American for doing that--the system uses you, use it back. Especially considering there's no assurance beyond internship.

I was saying that taking on hundreds of internationals and not providing them with internships after medical school to be unethical--in fact I said that consultants in major hospitals here have told me this, not that I feel this (although I do agree with their sentiment). Physicians here are truly bothered by the watering down of the education here caused by the greed of the medical schools, e.g. UQ


Yes, but if you go to Victoria it's guaranteed internship. Would you not take on the additional debt for the assurance of continuity?
 
Victoria is not guaranteed internship, although the prospects of getting one is certainly better because of the laws in Victoria which places graduates of Victorian medical schools over interstate Australian domestics. This is the one of the reasons why I am considering taking Melbourne over UQ right now. The only thing drawing me toward UQ right now is the opportunities for international electives/core rotations at ochsner or if you manage to organize them yourself.
 
It's guaranteed when you consider the number of students and the number of intern places available in the state. No one is having problems getting internship out in Victoria, as far as I know.

I'm just saying to be very smart about your decision. Universities are perhaps worse than investment banks when it comes to trafficking in fraud. Make sure that you understand the implications of any rotation you take on back in the States and how it can affect your licensing (I have heard this is or was a problem in New York and California).

If you have no problem with working rurally, you won't have an issue with going to UQ, but most internationals, it seems, are used to being in the city and being big spenders.
 
qldman said:
There is a 0% chance that anyone from Ochsner will get an Australian internship past 2014.

I said the 8 week rotation in Australia is about $$$$$$$$$$ because it was a bargaining piece by the school and the AMC and AMA to gain accreditation. If you think UQ, or any other university for that matter,cares about you beyond taking your money and then washing its hands of you the instant it receives your tuition, you are absolutely delusional.

And especially with North Americans staying on for internship for a few months and then returning back to North America (QLD Health just now created a clause stating you will be responsible to pay up to $150,000 if you drop out of your internship) there is absolutely no way an Ochsner student (a program designed to get you back to the States) will secure an internship in Australia.

I have had several physicians say to me outright and verbatim that they believe UQs current program ,with regards to its internationals, is unethical. People only ended up with internships due to the vigorous campaign by the MSA--it's because of institutions like UQ that the entire mess originated, and now UQ is attempting to 'step up' because it knows if it loses its cash cows it will go under.

I'm not sure why you're arguing this with me, as it's 100% transparent to anyone involved in the situation.

I'm just trying to help the guys who are considering going to Australia. I would honestly suggest they consider Griffith, Bond, or any of the Victorian schools over UQ if they have even the slightest hesitation to wanting to return to the US, as I believe each of those schools would provide a better opportunity to remain in Australia.

You also seem to be brushing off the belief amongst many other current students that the Years 1/2 biomedical education leaves quite a bit to be desired, phloston has detailed several of the objective deficiencies, such as the school's outright neglect for Pharmacology and other of the biomedical sciences. Honestly on the Years 1 and 2 exams, someone could just live in a hut in Africa and memorize every word of the student notes and have zero knowledge of what it means, and pull off a 5 on the exams.

Either way it's good for prospective students to get the divergent opinions of current students. I will offer up a final thought, which is that you are involved more personally in the situation as an intermediary/possible mouthpiece for and between the school and the Ochsner program, whereas I am viewing it as a more detached observer who is able to see over the course of my education here what has transpired in this high stakes game.
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First off, I am by no means a mouthpiece for anyone. I say my own thoughts and do so with complete intellectual honesty. I happen to be in the program and am graduating in a month, so I happen to have a lot of first hand knowledge of what has been going on and what the reality of the situation is. I also take a pragmatic and albeit optimistic approach since being a pessimist serves no purpose (though being a realist does, and I always endeavor to be exactly that).

I have echoed Phloston's sentiments about the deficiencies in the program. I know Phloston personally, I've taught the USMLE alongside him, hell it was even I that had the conversation with him in year 1 that spurred his own desire to pursue the USMLE which he did with amazing success and aplomb. But the fact that I don't get hung up on those deficiences and actually DO something about them rather than just whinge incessantly doesn't make me a mouthpiece. I most certainly do not brush it off - in fact, it was I who wrote the original proposal that started getting USMLE prep available to us to augment the deficiencies in the curriculum. What I AM saying is that with those resources in place and a good foreknowledge that you will need to do some extra studying for it, there is no reason to not go into the program JUST because of said deficiencies. If you are expecting to have your hand held and be spoon fed everything, then yes you will be sorely mistaken. Moreso at UQ than other SoM's in the US that I am familiar with, but in any case at this level you should be prepared to take ownership of your own education and make sure you are self motivated. Because if not now, you will be sorely disappointed at some point down the road (or your dead and maimed patients will).

Your "objective" POV is more like uninformed about particular details and relevant nuance. Well, only relevant insofar as you are making specific claims that are false because you don't know the pertinent details.

The return rotation, for example. You are trying to stretch the idea that it is all about money by trying to make the direct correlation between it specifically and the program as a whole. Not a very good argument, to be honest, because at that point you simply make EVERYTHING about the money using the same logic and there is zero point in mentioning the return rotation specifically. Plus, nobody - myself included - would argue anything except that it is indeed for the money in that sense. Of course everything is ultimately about the money and I have said exactly that many times in the past on this forum and others.

However, it was NOT a bargaining chip to the AMC. It was set *a priori* based on precedent from USyd with a 16 week hospital based clinical curriculum. Which is exactly what I had said before. So your "objective" commentary is adding innuendo that makes things seem much more sinister and premeditated than they actually are.

As for what your physician acquaintances and you think about the ethical state of the program... well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But this particular one has no real bearing on the conversation whatsoever. First and foremost, the program is specifically billed to return to the US. And I - and others - have long advised that anyone even remotely interested in staying in Aus should at a minimum do the regular 4 years at UQ and possibly look elsewhere. But furthermore, even though it may be the longstanding ethos of the Aussies that completing medical school should guarantee you an internship, that is certainly not the reality nor the ethos in the states or Canada (to my knowledge). Nobody here in the US is guaranteed anything and most people - in particular Canadians - who go elsewhere do so with the full knowledge that there are no guarantees. Such is life and that is something that informed consent is all about. Which is why it is made clear to all accepted UQO students that the intern situation in Australia is not something they should really be considering, let alone banking on.

As for those ditching intern year... I agree. Highly dubious at best and I have no problem with QLD health making whatever ramifications they need to in order to prevent such things from happening. And in case you hadn't noticed I explicitly said that the intern situation is already not good and getting worse because of that, noting specifically that in the near future if not already it would be very unlikely for UQO students to land an internship in QLD.

So why are we arguing? Because what you see as 100% transparent is simply different than how you seem to be portraying it. You don't have all the necessary information to make the sorts of specific claims you are making, especially reading into the intent of certain things.
 
qldman said:
It's guaranteed when you consider the number of students and the number of intern places available in the state. No one is having problems getting internship out in Victoria, as far as I know.

I'm just saying to be very smart about your decision. Universities are perhaps worse than investment banks when it comes to trafficking in fraud. Make sure that you understand the implications of any rotation you take on back in the States and how it can affect your licensing (I have heard this is or was a problem in New York and California).

If you have no problem with working rurally, you won't have an issue with going to UQ, but most internationals, it seems, are used to being in the city and being big spenders.
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Considering the number of spots available? That was true for QLD at one time too.

Being smart about decisions is always good. Passive aggressive fear mongering because of your own poor decisions is not helpful, however. The issue with California is moot for anyone beyond my year and I have an interview in California coming up. NY is indeed a bit further out than CA, but for someone starting the program next year will certainly not be an issue. It is a matter of bureaucracy - which moves slowly - nothing more.

If your goal is to stay in Australia, then I would probably agree with you vis-a-vis which school to choose. I don't know for sure, given I've never researched that in detail nor had to. But that would not be particularly relevant to this thread, now would it?
 
Strombone said:
Victoria is not guaranteed internship, although the prospects of getting one is certainly better because of the laws in Victoria which places graduates of Victorian medical schools over interstate Australian domestics. This is the one of the reasons why I am considering taking Melbourne over UQ right now. The only thing drawing me toward UQ right now is the opportunities for international electives/core rotations at ochsner or if you manage to organize them yourself.
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I've been quite clear and forthright that there are definitely drawbacks to the program. The majority of those are either already a non-issue or soon to be, and those encompass the majority of the biggest concerns (the rest are much more trivial, having to do with costs and how much you have to self-motivate to study because you aren't spoon fed EVERYTHING you need for the USMLE).

California is having a site visit in March to seal the deal with final approval (which, based on what the board actually said at the last meeting, is a mere formality and what we expected - just the timing is slow). NY has been paid the fee for approval and is exactly the same - slow bureacracy moving. Admittedly there is a chance things could be delayed or fall through for either, but that is exceedingly unlikely in the case of CA and only slightly more likely in the case of NY. In any case, I personally - knowing everything I know now - would not at all hesitate to join the program based solely on those concerns.

I've also stated that indeed it is a costly education. If you can enter a US state school and don't have a particular reason to position yourself as a "globally educated" physician, I can't argue against choosing the state school over UQ. That MAY change over time, but I won't bother to aver on that topic.

If you are at all seriously considering staying in Australia, then I would certainly recommend you NOT do the UQO program and something like Melbourne may well be a much better choice. As I said above, I can't comment on that with any authority at all.

As for doing the rotations at Ochsner - you merely have to apply for them and express your interest in doing well there (we've had a number of Aussies use this as a "vacation rotation" and make poor impressions on the staff here, which is why the statement of intent has become part of getting the rotation). There are no guarantees since obviously the UQO students get precedence, but it is not particularly difficult to get a couple of rotations at Ochsner. Many Canadians and Aussies do it.

You just need to figure out what you real goal is and commit to it - back to the US, stay in Oz, or be a globally traveling physician. Once you've done that, then you can start making informed choices.
 
nybgrus said:
Considering the number of spots available? That was true for QLD at one time too.

Being smart about decisions is always good. Passive aggressive fear mongering because of your own poor decisions is not helpful, however. The issue with California is moot for anyone beyond my year and I have an interview in California coming up. NY is indeed a bit further out than CA, but for someone starting the program next year will certainly not be an issue. It is a matter of bureaucracy - which moves slowly - nothing more.

If your goal is to stay in Australia, then I would probably agree with you vis-a-vis which school to choose. I don't know for sure, given I've never researched that in detail nor had to. But that would not be particularly relevant to this thread, now would it?
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I'm not trying to scare anyone away and I am 3 weeks from finishing med school here just like you, albeit not in Ochsner.

Like I said before, universities are the biggest propagators of fraud, even more so than the investment banks that profit off of natural disasters. And UQ happens to be the worst of the worst.

If you can justify to me why a single medical school in a state with a population of less than 3 million people needs 600+ students per class, i would love to hear it. I don't even think New York and california have combined the same number of medical students throughout the entire states respectively as does UQ--but I can give you an answer---it's called greed, and there's an entire generation of future physicians in Australia who are about to/will be screwed because of this.

And I think the fact that consultants throughout major hospitals are telling students that their medical school is unethical raises some serious red flags about the way UQ runs its operations.

And anyways I'd suggest to anyone to UQ simply for the pristine beaches, pristine weather, and pristine women of Queensland, but that they should do some serious due diligence and be prepared to protect themselves against the mistakes and oppositional nature of UQ if they do enroll/hand over their entire financial future to and in the MBBS program.
 
nybgrus said:
I've been quite clear and forthright that there are definitely drawbacks to the program. The majority of those are either already a non-issue or soon to be, and those encompass the majority of the biggest concerns (the rest are much more trivial, having to do with costs and how much you have to self-motivate to study because you aren't spoon fed EVERYTHING you need for the USMLE).
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I take serious offense to this comment. We shouldn't have to beg our medical school to do its job. When we make mistakes we are held accountable and yet UQ is not being held accountable for anything.

We shouldn't have to beg our medical school to teach us Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and all the other topics it does a terrible job at teaching. It's laughable at this point. I remember Rod Minchon (Pharmacology instructor) joking in 2nd year and saying it would be our only lecture of the year (and it was). I self-study quite a bit on my own but the school isn't even providing us with a basic foundation in some of the biomedical sciences disciplines, and that is simply unacceptable.
 
The UQ program assesses practically no pharmacology, microbiology, biochemistry, embryology nor biostatistics.

In terms of the quality of the program, I would not advise attending University of Queensland unless you are extremely motivated and know you can take it upon yourself to do intense, external self-directed study. This needs to be an honest decision, because once you're in medical school, you're virtually locked in. If you are very motivated, however, then regardless of UQ's program, you will do very well on the USMLE.
 
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qldman said:
I'm not trying to scare anyone away and I am 3 weeks from finishing med school here just like you, albeit not in Ochsner.

Like I said before, universities are the biggest propagators of fraud, even more so than the investment banks that profit off of natural disasters. And UQ happens to be the worst of the worst.

If you can justify to me why a single medical school in a state with a population of less than 3 million people needs 600+ students per class, i would love to hear it. I don't even think New York and california have combined the same number of medical students throughout the entire states respectively as does UQ--but I can give you an answer---it's called greed, and there's an entire generation of future physicians in Australia who are about to/will be screwed because of this.

And I think the fact that consultants throughout major hospitals are telling students that their medical school is unethical raises some serious red flags about the way UQ runs its operations.

And anyways I'd suggest to anyone to UQ simply for the pristine beaches, pristine weather, and pristine women of Queensland, but that they should do some serious due diligence and be prepared to protect themselves against the mistakes and oppositional nature of UQ if they do enroll/hand over their entire financial future to and in the MBBS program.
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Your inflammatory characterization of universities notwithstanding, I don't entirely disagree. Yes, sadly, too much about higher education these days is about money. That is the sad reality we live in, though there are those that would like to see it changed - myself included.

As for your spurious comment about how many med students there are in NY and CA, as well as UQ, you are quite wrong. It becomes hard to take you seriously when you don't even do the 5 second of googling it takes to at least get the numbers right.

Firstly, the UQ class size topped out at around 475ish in our year - not 600. It has since declined because it was a twosie issue that ballooned it in the first place and the twosie paradigm has since been removed. Secondly, the total students in CA and NY are 1,055 and 1,769 respectively. Lastly, the largest schools in the US run around 250-300. Now if you had just put out actual numbers your real point - which is that there are too many students per capita - would have stood out nicely.

And in that, I somewhat agree. However it still doesn't quite stand up. Lets look at Louisiana as a convenient example. Total number of medical students 468 for the state. Population, 4.6 million (same as QLD). So QLD as a total has 575 medical student graduates compared to the 468 of Louisiana, a comparably sized state. And, of course, this is in light of the known physician shortage in both countries. If you want to look as a whole, you've got 3,000 graduates in all of Australia (which includes internationals) for a population of 22.5 million vs 17,000 in the US for a population of 313 million. 14 fold the population with 6 fold the number of medical students (and, once again, a very recognized physician shortage in the US).

So how can I justify it? Based on the ACTUAL numbers, it really isn't all that hard. But of course, when you just make up numbers and facts off the top of your head because you have a preconceived notion of what you THINK is the case, well that's a different story.

As for your commentary about attending physicians thinking the practices are unethical... well, like I said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Doesn't make them right and doesn't make them reality. Are there a few dubious practices? Sure. As you yourself state that is pretty common amongst all universities. The real question is, does UQ have a WORSE track record in that? I posit not really. Unless you have some ACTUAL data to back up your claims. (Yes, the admissions scandal was a big deal, but you can't use that to bolster your claim since it was for a single student and, more importantly, action was taken and it was severe action which demonstrates that lapses in the system can occur - which any rational person would realize will always be the case - but that the issue was dealt with swiftly and decisively. And THAT is the measure of ethical-ness - what is done about a transgression, not whether they happen at all).
 
qldman said:
I take serious offense to this comment. We shouldn't have to beg our medical school to do its job. When we make mistakes we are held accountable and yet UQ is not being held accountable for anything.

We shouldn't have to beg our medical school to teach us Pharmacology, Biochemistry, and all the other topics it does a terrible job at teaching. It's laughable at this point. I remember Rod Minchon (Pharmacology instructor) joking in 2nd year and saying it would be our only lecture of the year (and it was). I self-study quite a bit on my own but the school isn't even providing us with a basic foundation in some of the biomedical sciences disciplines, and that is simply unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Well, fair enough. Except that students ALWAYS do that - otherwise student governments and societies would exist anywhere, now would they? But even more to the point, it is NOT the job of UQ to prepare its graduates for a FOREIGN medical licensing exam. That would be like whinging that my undegrad institution didn't properly prepare me for the GAMSAT or that a US medical school didn't prepare me for the MCCEE or the COMLEX. Granted, they have taken on the Ochsner cohort so they do have some onus there, which is exactly how we got the resources in place that we did. NB that it is for the Ochsner cohort and not the general UQ cohort specifically because of that difference. You, as a traditional student, are not required to sit the USMLE nor are you expected to go to the US for residency. If you wanted that, you should have been part of the Ochsner cohort. Which is exactly what I - and others - have been advising people.

But the real point is that no matter what, the onus is always on you. And you can whinge about whatever you like. My very good friend is at a med school in Chicago and he got blasted with biochem and pharmacology. To the point where he felt it was a DETRIMENT to his learning medicine and preparation for the USMLE. He had entire exams on the nitty gritty details of the LAC operon which most certainly is NOT useful for the USMLE. He had detailed exams about esoteric pharmacology that do not show up on the USMLE and that you will have to re-learn in clinical years and residency anyways. He felt very much that our distinct freedom from that (he had serious exams every two weeks) which we had was distinctly better and wished he had that. One can say the grass is always greener on the other side. Or one can realize that different people have different learning styles and preferences and that the truly successful capitalize on the (always less than ideal) system they are in.

Or they can just whinge about it and make up numbers and facts along the way.
 
Would you anyone be here able to comment on if it would be detrimental to study the USMLE during clincal years? At Melbourne there is only 1 year of preclinical, so I would be studying for the USMLE during full time clinical studies.

Just something unrelated, but still needing consideration to my final decision, is typically how many teachers are there when you do an elective (not a core rotation) back in the states?
 
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