Unfair Accusation

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Lazybug

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Thanks for the replies from some reasonable people but certain others made the thread so dumb that I no longer wanted to have anything to do with it? If this is what happens to all threads, find another site. More respectable people lurking on craigslist. If any of the few decent people want to continue this conversation on they can pm me.

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Yeah that's pretty unfair IMO. I love how most school rotations require detailed patient information and documentation of that information into a database, yet a lot of sites prohibit students from working with that information. A hospital or any other pharmacy should not be allowed to be an APPE/IPPE site for a pharmacy school if they aren't gonna allow students to work with patient information.

Hell, most of my preceptors let me take copies of charts and EMRs and other records home to work on. I probably had stacks of that stuff lying around in my room at one point. End of the rotation, I took it all back to the hospital and shredded it.
 
Yeah that's pretty unfair IMO. I love how most school rotations require detailed patient information and documentation of that information into a database, yet a lot of sites prohibit students from working with that information. A hospital or any other pharmacy should not be allowed to be an APPE/IPPE site for a pharmacy school if they aren't gonna allow students to work with patient information.

Hell, most of my preceptors let me take copies of charts and EMRs and other records home to work on. I probably had stacks of that stuff lying around in my room at one point. End of the rotation, I took it all back to the hospital and shredded it.

Yeah, just shred it at the end. I do poorly on assignments but on clinical knowledge I actually know a lot for a p4 so my preceptor actually likes me...
 
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Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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Just tell your preceptor: "You can't fail me for that." And that's true. You seriously can't fail a student for that.

I had a problem with a preceptor in my P4 year b/c he didn't like the way I talk (it was a CVS retail rotation, and mind you I've worked at CVS for 4 years prior to that rotation). He gave me a barely passing at the midpoint eval. I just scoffed at his eval and went on my business. He eventually passes me with a great eval b/c the other RPH praised my clinical knowledge. The only way for you to fail your rotation is if you don't show up, or you don't know what you're talking about clinically.

If your preceptor nitpicks and indeed fails you, go to your school/rotation direction and discuss it. I'm sure that will be changed WITH EASE.

I dislike preceptors who want to be "difficult" preceptors, nitpicks for no reasons, grills but don't teach, thinks they're "smart" when they know just as much as you...

Don't worry OP. As long as your clinical knowledge is strong (say the MDs/residents you work with can vouch for you), who cares what your preceptor says?
 
There are usually two sides to the story.It takes a lot of paperwork and evidence to fail a student at a rotation. This is why most preceptors hate failing students. Also, I am sure there is a grievance committee at your school which provides some checks and balances to the fascism incarnate that is the preceptor.
 
Just tell your preceptor: "You can't fail me for that." And that's true. You seriously can't fail a student for that.

I had a problem with a preceptor in my P4 year b/c he didn't like the way I talk (it was a CVS retail rotation, and mind you I've worked at CVS for 4 years prior to that rotation). He gave me a barely passing at the midpoint eval. I just scoffed at his eval and went on my business. He eventually passes me with a great eval b/c the other RPH praised my clinical knowledge. The only way for you to fail your rotation is if you don't show up, or you don't know what you're talking about clinically.

If your preceptor nitpicks and indeed fails you, go to your school/rotation direction and discuss it. I'm sure that will be changed WITH EASE.

I dislike preceptors who want to be "difficult" preceptors, nitpicks for no reasons, grills but don't teach, thinks they're "smart" when they know just as much as you...

Don't worry OP. As long as your clinical knowledge is strong (say the MDs/residents you work with can vouch for you), who cares what your preceptor says?

You most definitely can fail a student for not following rules especially as it pertains to PHI. Believe me....it happens more often than one would think. That's why they do HIPAA training over and over and over again. This is important stuff!


You can and will lose your job for violating HIPAA. No second chances usually if it's an egregious violation.

I suspect there is more to the OPs story.

Also, I'm surprised a preceptor would let PHI go home with a student if it's not de-identified.
 
You most definitely can fail a student for not following rules especially as it pertains to PHI. Believe me....it happens more often than one would think. That's why they do HIPAA training over and over and over again. This is important stuff!


You can and will lose your job for violating HIPAA. No second chances usually if it's an egregious violation.

I suspect there is more to the OPs story.

Also, I'm surprised a preceptor would let PHI go home with a student if it's not de-identified.

But according to the OP, the preceptor is threatening to fail him b/c he simply printed out patient's information, and he had their names blacked out. And he was inside the rotation site/pharmacy, which I assume you will be exposed to PHI and other health information all the time. If that's true, the preceptor is completely out of line.

If the OP's story is true, then OP should definitely call the preceptor out on it.

And to your last point, preceptors take their work home all the time (with patient's info). I have done so myself, as have my classmates when we were students (with the sole purpose of completing our assignments and whatever we couldn't do while we were on extremely busy rotations). But we would always bring them back and discard them appropriately.
 
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But according to the OP, the preceptor is threatening to fail him b/c he simply printed out patient's information, and he had their names blacked out. And he was inside the rotation site/pharmacy, which I assume you will be exposed to PHI and other health information all the time. If that's true, the preceptor is completely out of line.

If the OP's story is true, then OP should definitely call the preceptor out on it.

And to your last point, preceptors take their work home all the time (with patient's info). I have done so myself, as have my classmates when we were students (with the sole purpose of completing our assignments and whatever we couldn't do while we were on extremely busy rotations). But we would always bring them back and discard them appropriately.

As I said, I think there is more to the story.

The bringing home PHI most likely varies by institution. We don't allow it without de-identifying it.

Being at a UMC on campus may be different. I don't know. I'm just surprised at it. Not saying I don't believe it or anything. Just surprised!
 
As I said, I think there is more to the story.

The bringing home PHI most likely varies by institution. We don't allow it without de-identifying it.

Being at a UMC on campus may be different. I don't know. I'm just surprised at it. Not saying I don't believe it or anything. Just surprised!

The OP didn't take any PHI outside of the hospital/pharmacy.

she only told me not to take it out of the hospital or pharmacy areas, which I clearly did not do.

Trust me, some preceptors are just A-holes, just like some people in general.
 
Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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I agree with all of you. PHI should not be exploited. The issue is that I did not do this. The preceptor is using it as a reason to kick me out and fail me which is sad because I have nothing to prove that I didn't. Conversely this preceptor has nothing to prove that I exploited anyone's PHI (as i did not). Unfortuntely, even though I have filed an appeal, given what I know about this school they are likely to side with the preceptor despite not having any evidence against me.

Well, if they can't prove it, they can't fail you. If your preceptor is failing you b/c you violated HIPPA and erroneously exposed a patient's PHI, he/she would need actual proof. This is a very serious matter b/c it's damaging to your pharmacy academic career. Your school can't simply just side with the preceptor on this matter.

I wouldn't simply let this go b/c failing a rotation means you have to retake it, which means having to pay extra tution and thus delaying your graduation. It's very serious.

I would sit down with the program director and seriously talk this over. Have your preceptor in too if necessary. If what all you're saying is true, you have to stand by it.
 
I know the OP didn't take it out of the hospital. I was referring to Sparda's post. lol

something doesn't add up in this story though. OP, aside from this, what specifically did the preceptor say/do that gives you the impression they don't like you?
 
Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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I completely agree with you. This is a very serious accusation and indeed very damaging to my career. This preceptor obviously cannot provide proof of what she is accusing since it doesn't exist. I did email the program coordinator but have not yet heard back. As a school authority I'd definitely not let a preceptor do this to a student without providing solid proof. The fact of the matter is I hope the school officials do demand the preceptor to provide proof, but if they don't, I don't see much I can do. I even called the state board of pharmacy today and they simply suggested that I try to talk to my "program director".

Trust me, there is a lot you can do. Go to the pharmacy AND institution's dean directly if you have to.

If this was me, I would use this opportunity to expose this preceptor. She should be fired for doing this to a student, if all you simply did was print out some damn patient's info to do follow-up.

Go get your all of your previous preceptors to sign off on your competency and professionalism as a student.
 
Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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I think I will try to pursue this. The more I think about it the more disgusted I get and I hate sitting here feeling sorry for myself like this. The crazy thing is that she was encouraging us to take down the patients' phone numbers and call them to follow up after discharge, and one of the students was doing this last week in order to have the patients' info before the system took it down.

Dude u didn't do anything wrong. Relax. If printing out patient's info is a crime INSIDE a pharmacy/hospital setting, a ton of people would have failed their rotations.
 
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done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.
 
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she only told me not to take it out of the hospital or pharmacy areas, which I clearly did not do.

This is what you said:

A couple of weeks back she noticed that I had a page printed out which had some of a patient's meds listed on it. She yelled at me despite having blacked out the patient info.

It sounded like she didn't want you printing things. I wouldn't have done it again, in that case. :shrug:
 
Just tell your preceptor: "You can't fail me for that." And that's true. You seriously can't fail a student for that.

I had a problem with a preceptor in my P4 year b/c he didn't like the way I talk (it was a CVS retail rotation, and mind you I've worked at CVS for 4 years prior to that rotation). He gave me a barely passing at the midpoint eval. I just scoffed at his eval and went on my business. He eventually passes me with a great eval b/c the other RPH praised my clinical knowledge. The only way for you to fail your rotation is if you don't show up, or you don't know what you're talking about clinically.

If your preceptor nitpicks and indeed fails you, go to your school/rotation direction and discuss it. I'm sure that will be changed WITH EASE.

I dislike preceptors who want to be "difficult" preceptors, nitpicks for no reasons, grills but don't teach, thinks they're "smart" when they know just as much as you...

Don't worry OP. As long as your clinical knowledge is strong (say the MDs/residents you work with can vouch for you), who cares what your preceptor says?

But according to the OP, the preceptor is threatening to fail him b/c he simply printed out patient's information, and he had their names blacked out. And he was inside the rotation site/pharmacy, which I assume you will be exposed to PHI and other health information all the time. If that's true, the preceptor is completely out of line.

If the OP's story is true, then OP should definitely call the preceptor out on it.

And to your last point, preceptors take their work home all the time (with patient's info). I have done so myself, as have my classmates when we were students (with the sole purpose of completing our assignments and whatever we couldn't do while we were on extremely busy rotations). But we would always bring them back and discard them appropriately.

Well, if they can't prove it, they can't fail you. If your preceptor is failing you b/c you violated HIPPA and erroneously exposed a patient's PHI, he/she would need actual proof. This is a very serious matter b/c it's damaging to your pharmacy academic career. Your school can't simply just side with the preceptor on this matter.

I wouldn't simply let this go b/c failing a rotation means you have to retake it, which means having to pay extra tution and thus delaying your graduation. It's very serious.

I would sit down with the program director and seriously talk this over. Have your preceptor in too if necessary. If what all you're saying is true, you have to stand by it.

Trust me, there is a lot you can do. Go to the pharmacy AND institution's dean directly if you have to.

If this was me, I would use this opportunity to expose this preceptor. She should be fired for doing this to a student, if all you simply did was print out some damn patient's info to do follow-up.

Go get your all of your previous preceptors to sign off on your competency and professionalism as a student.

Dude u didn't do anything wrong. Relax. If printing out patient's info is a crime INSIDE a pharmacy/hospital setting, a ton of people would have failed their rotations.

OK as a faculty member, I think this advice is both naive and very bad. Preceptors can and do fail students, all the time. Encouraging students to get an attitude about it won't help. It will likely make it worse.
 
It sounded like she didn't want you printing things. I wouldn't have done it again, in that case. :shrug:

What is this? A dictatorship? :scared:

OK as a faculty member, I think this advice is both naive and very bad. Preceptors can and do fail students, all the time. Encouraging students to get an attitude about it won't help. It will likely make it worse.

Yes, preceptors and can fail students, for LEGITIMATE reasons. Nothing wrong with that. The reason(s) for failing students is to point out their weaknesses so they can work on them, and grow as a pharmacy student.

But if a preceptor is abusing his/her "position" b/c he/she can just fail students, then that faculty member needs to be called out. Hell, that school should dismiss her from precepting students.
 
What is this? A dictatorship? :scared:

Rotations aren't a democracy, that's for sure.

To me it seems stupidly simple:

Preceptor: Please don't print patient information out from the computer.
Student: OK

Everyone is fine and no one fails.

Just do what you're asked, pass your rotations and graduate. Why make trouble for yourself?
 
Rotations aren't a democracy, that's for sure.

To me it seems stupidly simple:

Preceptor: Please don't print patient information out from the computer.
Student: OK

Everyone is fine and no one fails.

Just do what you're asked, pass your rotations and graduate. Why make trouble for yourself?

The OP explained why he/she had to print out the patient's information.

This patient was on like 546666666 hospital meds and infusions and etccc... I printed it to have in front of me while doing his assessment and plan, drug interactions, etcc..it would have taken an hour to copy all that down.

And if rotations are that kind of environment, I would encourage ALL students who are under that type of environment to call their preceptors out. Fortunately, I went to a school where we can tell our program directors if we are overloaded with unnecessary work and having to do unnecessary things (something we call rotation evaluations).

A preceptor straight up told me one time: There are only 2 ways you can fail a rotation (unless there are some crazy factors...)
1) you don't show up
2) you lack A TON of clinical knowledge that would be harmful to the patient
 
The OP explained why he/she had to print out the patient's information.



And if rotations are that kind of environment, I would encourage ALL students who are under that type of environment to call their preceptors out. Fortunately, I went to a school where we can tell our program directors if we are overloaded with unnecessary work and having to do unnecessary things (something we call rotation evaluations).

A preceptor straight up told me one time: There are only 2 ways you can fail a rotation (unless there are some crazy factors...)
1) you don't show up
2) you lack A TON of clinical knowledge that would be harmful to the patient

Because all preceptors are the same :rolleyes:

I agree with A4MD. You are giving very bad advice. You can fail a rotation for much more than those two reasons.
 
Because all preceptors are the same :rolleyes:

I agree with A4MD. You are giving very bad advice. You can fail a rotation for much more than those two reasons.

So what do you want the OP to do? He's basically being failed b/c he printed out some papers. Take a step back and think about that for a second. Do you know how ludicrous that sounds? And if you think you can be failed for that, even if the preceptor warned him not to print anything, you're crazy.

I'm not giving him bad advice. I'm telling him nobody should be failed b/c they printed out some pieces of papers. Do you know what the consequences (monetary and academically) of failing a rotation?
 
So what do you want the OP to do? He's basically being failed b/c he printed out some papers. Take a step back and think about that for a second. Do you know how ludicrous that sounds? And if you think you can be failed for that, even if the preceptor warned him not to print anything, you're crazy.

I'm not giving him bad advice. I'm telling him nobody should be failed b/c they printed out some pieces of papers. Do you know what the consequences (monetary and academically) of failing a rotation?

I'd bet there is way more to the story than this. But, if he was told not to print patient info and he did it anyway, he shouldn't be wondering why he was failed.

Your advice is terrible. Encouraging students to scoff at and disregard their preceptors is just :thumbdown: and a recipe for failure.
 
I'd bet there is way more to the story than this. But, if he was told not to print patient info and he did it anyway, he shouldn't be wondering why he was failed.

Your advice is terrible. Encouraging students to scoff at and disregard their preceptors is just :thumbdown: and a recipe for failure.

Look, I only encourage students to scoff at and disregard "unreasonable" preceptors (like in this case-if OP story is true). And there are unreasonable preceptors (I dealt with one--like I said, I was criticized for the way I "talk" and was nearly failed at my midpoint eval) who should not be preceptors in the first place. My alma mater has dismissed certain pharmacists from being preceptors b/c of student complaints (obviously there has to be multiple).

And I'm surprised as a faculty member, you would see nothing wrong in failing a student for printing out patient info (even if he/she was warned not to). Ask yourself (or that preceptor should ask his/herself) this: how are you improving him by failing him for printing out patient's info?

Like I said again, failing a student should be the LAST resort (as I am currently a preceptor myself in the retail setting). The purpose (or I hope to most preceptors as I hope most preceptors' main goal of precepting students is to TEACH and enhance the students' clinical knowledge) of failing a student is to point out their weaknesses as a student pharmacists, and REPEATING a rotation would improve that weakness and help them become a better student pharmacists.

I encourage all students to be extremely professional and open to every and any rotation they are at. Not every rotation is the same, and not every preceptor is the same. The great purpose of rotations for students is to learn from different preceptors and different ways to absorb clinical knowledge.

But hey, I was failed for printing out some pieces of paper b/c I was told not to. That is the most stupid thing I've heard.
 
If they asked you not to print things with patient information on it and you did it anyway...that is an issue.

There are way more than 2 reasons to fail a rotation....

It is always the preceptor's fault, never the student. LOL. I know many pharmacists who have lost their jobs for HIPAA related offenses.
 
If they asked you not to print things with patient information on it and you did it anyway...that is an issue.

There are way more than 2 reasons to fail a rotation....

It is always the preceptor's fault, never the student. LOL. I know many pharmacists who have lost their jobs for HIPAA related offenses.

Yes.

If you are told not to print patient information and you do it anyway, you deserve to be kicked off the rotation and fail. End of story.

I have worked places where printing PHI was prohibited. I have worked places where you couldn't even print from the patient profile unless you had permission and an access code.

It's not that weird.
 
It is always the preceptor's fault, never the student. LOL. I know many pharmacists who have lost their jobs for HIPAA related offenses.

Again, we're discussing all this under the pretense that what the OP states is the truth. Secondly, how is OP's act a violation of HIPPA?
 
If they asked you not to print things with patient information on it and you did it anyway...that is an issue.

There are way more than 2 reasons to fail a rotation....

It is always the preceptor's fault, never the student. LOL. I know many pharmacists who have lost their jobs for HIPAA related offenses.

:scared:
 
Yes.

If you are told not to print patient information and you do it anyway, you deserve to be kicked off the rotation and fail. End of story.

I have worked places where printing PHI was prohibited. I have worked places where you couldn't even print from the patient profile unless you had permission and an access code.

It's not that weird.

Then I hope you aren't a preceptor. This is a student pharmacist we're dealing with here, not a full-fledged pharmacist. Student pharmacists are there to learn, they make mistakes (once or twice or three times, you tell them and explain to them why it's wrong), although I wholeheartedly think it's completely ludicrous to fail a student b/c he prints out a patient's info (maybe I've never worked in a place with those ludicrous rules). You only fail students if they truly can't learn from their mistakes, after you repeatedly tell them the right way. Again, they're STUDENTS. They pay you guys to teach them. Again this a student. Failing a rotation has monetary and academic consequences.
 
Then I hope you aren't a preceptor. This is a student pharmacist we're dealing with here, not a full-fledged pharmacist. Student pharmacists are there to learn, they make mistakes (once or twice or three times, you tell them and explain to them why it's wrong), although I wholeheartedly think it's completely ludicrous to fail a student b/c he prints out a patient's info (maybe I've never worked in a place with those ludicrous rules). You only fail students if they truly can't learn from their mistakes, after you repeatedly tell them the right way. Again, they're STUDENTS. They pay you guys to teach them. Again this a student. Failing a rotation has monetary and academic consequences.

This is just silly. We aren't talking about a mistake. We're talking about disobeying a direct order. If you (as a student or an employee or whatever) are told "DO NOT DO XYZ," why would you do it again?

As a student, I worked in a high security place where flash drives were prohibited. One attempt to use one would get you suspended and the second violation was termination. I never once "forgot" and tried to use one. How hard is it, really?
 
I also think you should be able to do whatever you want and still pass the rotation. Who the **** cares what a preceptor thinks? You are the one paying their salary after all. No way I would let a preceptor fail me for doing stuff I was told not to do. Obviously you know better than her what you may and may not do. Do NOT let her fail you for this! I mean as long as you show up to the rotation no way your school will let her fail you.










...is how I am reading some of the advice in this thread.:confused:
 
My kneejerk reaction was this is a stupid reason to fail a student, but you were directed previously not to do it, so what do you expect?

You argue your preceptor can't do whatever they chose, but you can do whatever you want with PHI?
 
This is just silly. We aren't talking about a mistake. We're talking about disobeying a direct order. If you (as a student or an employee or whatever) are told "DO NOT DO XYZ," why would you do it again?

As a student, I worked in a high security place where flash drives were prohibited. One attempt to use one would get you suspended and the second violation was termination. I never once "forgot" and tried to use one. How hard is it, really?

No this isn't silly. I don't think you get the difference. Rotations aren't work; it's a learning experience. The student isn't being paid to carry out his tasks, in fact, he/she is paying you and the institution to teach him on how to be a better pharmacist. Failing him for not following an order isn't going to make him a better pharmacist. That's like failing a student immediately for not wearing a tie after you told him ONE time to wear a tie. You see how ridiculous that sounds?

The OP explained why he printed out that info, b/c he wanted to follow-up on his patients. Therefore, he printed the info under good intent. He didn't print out the info b/c he wanted to do so to "disobey" a direct order. Maybe he's not as quick writing down the patient's info/pertinent labs/meds or memorizing the info... so he did that to assist him...you know what he/she's supposed to do while you're on rotation-put in work. You know it's not absolute black/white here, no questions asked type of thing we're talking about.

I only graduated last year, and have been working for a year. I've been on both sides.I have had students in the retail setting under me that have violated company's policies (albeit very small/minor, such as this ludicrous thing the OP is going under) in the first 2 weeks as some of them have never worked in the retail setting ever. For example, must always display a name tag with your title or answer the phone less than 2 ring tones or always greet the customer by their name (trust me these are company's policy and these can be used against you). Should I fail them after telling them what to do the first time?

Again, I guess you can find any reason to fail a student (after reading certain posts on here) and it's pretty saddening and pathetic at the same time.

I guess there is no evaluation checklist that a preceptor has to submit and an in-depth explanation of why a student was failed (b/c AGAIN, failing a student is a very serious matter as it has drastic consequences: monetary, academic, and even emotional).

Anyways, I'm not going to elaborate anymore on this. Again my advice to the OP, keep doing what you are doing. Bring this to the dean if you have to. It's unreasonable if you were failed for doing that (again assuming your story is the absolute truth). I would also request that preceptor have his/her own assessment by the school.

I think you need to show your performance to the school by bringing up past evals of your past rotations. If you have passed with flying colors and every preceptor backs up your professionalism and who you are as a student/person, I think you have nothing to worry about. Furthermore, for the preceptor failing you, I'm sure there would have been a wrriten explanation of why. Request for that to see if the story is correct.

Good luck OP.

I also think you should be able to do whatever you want and still pass the rotation. Who the **** cares what a preceptor thinks? You are the one paying their salary after all. No way I would let a preceptor fail me for doing stuff I was told not to do. Obviously you know better than her what you may and may not do. Do NOT let her fail you for this! I mean as long as you show up to the rotation no way your school will let her fail you.










...is how I am reading some of the advice in this thread.:confused:

Then maybe you should have your reading comprehension checked.

My kneejerk reaction was this is a stupid reason to fail a student, but you were directed previously not to do it, so what do you expect?

You argue your preceptor can't do whatever they chose, but you can do whatever you want with PHI?

No the OP isn't doing whatever. He's using it to work up his patients.
 
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My kneejerk reaction was this is a stupid reason to fail a student, but you were directed previously not to do it, so what do you expect?

You argue your preceptor can't do whatever they chose, but you can do whatever you want with PHI?

What happened to your avatar?
 
Ouch, rough situation.

I'd see if the other two students at your site can corroborate your story. That might be your only chance.
 
doublehh03...

LMAO... "not wearing a tie" and "not displaying a name tag" and "not answering the phone quickly enough" are not even in the ballpark with "violation of organizational privacy policies." If you think they are, then it's you who doesn't get it.

PS: If I told a student once to wear a tie and they showed up the next day without one, I would send them home. If they did it again, I would contact the school and consider asking them to leave the rotation. We are all adults and I'm a preceptor, not a babysitter. Learning to follow directions is an important skill. I've been busy teaching it to my toddler. I don't have much time or inclination to teach it to my adult students.
 
Sure. As long as your intent is understanding the materials, no problem.

I had good intent when I left a voice-mail to Mr. Doe that his Valtrex was ready for pick-up. Unfortunately his significant other listened to the message and now Mr. Doe is on the phone with your DM threatening a lawsuit. Still gonna pass me?
 
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