This sums up how I feel about student loan forgiveness

[deleted898085]

There are always ways around that. It's not that hard to come up with deterrents to abusing the system. If we make all the loans funded directly to the institutions and do away with refunds, we can take care of that problem. It is true that the government's involvement in student loans is inherently creating inflated college costs. So why can't we come up with something like say, no institutions being eligible to participate in the federal loan program if their tuition costs are rising faster than the rate of inflation.
I'm sure there are several ideas to brainstorm and come up with fixing the issue. But I agree that an interest rate approach is much better than all out forgiveness, since it still preserves some form of responsibility for the loan. Borrowers will benefit tremendously from a little to no interest rate loan program and greatly reduce the length of time people are saddled with debt.

"If we make all the loans funded directly to the institutions and do away with refunds, we can take care of that problem. "

This is what they're doing right now, isn't it?
My school sends us a budget every year: $60k for tuition, $38k for living cost.
I've received $38k each year, deposited to my checking from school.
I can live with just 20k/year but since the interest rate is low, I take all 38K.

And bc they can't find a job as a pharmacist, they're gonna start all over again with nursing school...
It's better than working minimum wage, $8/h or 16k/yr imo

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[redfish955]

IMO it's a very smart move by bernie to promise this. Red states actually have close to a 10% student loan default rate. This means that roughly 4% of all households in red states are at or near loan default. States and Colleges with the Most Borrowers in Default

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

"If we make all the loans funded directly to the institutions and do away with refunds, we can take care of that problem. "

This is what they're doing right now, isn't it?
My school sends us a budget every year: $60k for tuition, $38k for living cost.
I've received $38k each year, deposited to my checking from school.
I can live with just 20k/year but since the interest rate is low, I take all 38K.

And bc they can't find a job as a pharmacist, they're gonna start all over again with nursing school...
It's better than working minimum wage, $8/h or 16k/yr imo

That $38k a year is a refund so (s)he is suggesting doing away with that funding. Side note: why are you taking that much money for cost of living??

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I grew up on 33 cent boxes of macaroni mixed with $1 packs of hot dogs. Literally ate that stuff like five times a week. I didn't have a car until I graduated college and got a job. There were times in college in which I was working thirty hours a week while taking fifteen hours of engineering classes. There were times in college in which a 6 pack of malt liquor, a jar of peanut butter, and a loaf of bread got me through a week. Now that I'm a self made successful man people want to change the rules?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but to me this is a pretty good reason to make education more accessible. Why would you not want to fix a system that didn't work for you?

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[deleted480308]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but to me this is a pretty good reason to make education more accessible. Why would you not want to fix a system that didn't work for you?

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

calling a change a "fix" doesn't make it appropriate

 

[redfish955]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but to me this is a pretty good reason to make education more accessible. Why would you not want to fix a system that didn't work for you?

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

I already have a proposal. Make the first year classes with the weed out classes free and make the later classes more expensive. I saw a ton of kids get weeded out of my calculus class and I have no clue what they are up to now. I'm sure most of them could tackle a less rigorous class load and should be doing something better than stacking lumber at a home Depot for $12 an hour. Most of the people defaulting on loans are these sort of people.

 

[redfish955]

Mit already does this with graduate programs. Pass like six classes that are absurdly difficult and you can get into mit graduate school.

 

[deleted898085]

That $38k a year is a refund so (s)he is suggesting doing away with that funding. Side note: why are you taking that much money for cost of living??

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

Oh I didn't understand the word "do away". My bad!
So the $38K is the amount school says that students need to have while in school. So the federal allows student to borrow that much in addition to the amount for tuition.
Why am I taking that much? Why not if the interest rate is low, lower than rate for car loans, for mortgage, for ...
So the question is how much student loan rate should be so that it's not too high but not too low. Should they do tier?

 

[wagrxm2000]

It's not that it doesn't fit my opinion, it's that it's completely irrelevant to my opinion. I don't know if I am just really bad at communicating, or you are being intentionally daft.

You are bad at realizing there are millions of people that don't fit your reasoning and when examples come up, you completely ignore them assuming that's not the norm.

 

[BMBiology]

Oh I didn't understand the word "do away". My bad!
So the $38K is the amount school says that students need to have while in school. So the federal allows student to borrow that much in addition to the amount for tuition.
Why am I taking that much? Why not if the interest rate is low, lower than rate for car loans, for mortgage, for ...
So the question is how much student loan rate should be so that it's not too high but not too low. Should they do tier?

$38 k a year for living cost in Vegas? The more you borrow, the more the school make in loan original fee.


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[deleted898085]

$38 k a year for living cost in Vegas?


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I know, right? I was like who's gonna borrow that much unless they want a new a car. The federal is so generous!

The more you borrow, the more the school make in loan original fee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes.

 

[wagrxm2000]

1 or 2 anecdotes do not provide evidence for millions of people or for what the norm is. Not to mention that even redfish's anecdote doesn't really contradict my argument. Redfish doesn't address what factors lead to them growing up in poverty to begin with, and doesn't make the claim that the thing that got them out of poverty was the ability to delay gratification/believe in themselves. Rather, having access to food, albeit cheap and unsatisfying, as well as access to transportation and to education were keys for them to get out of poverty. I also have to assume that Redfish doesn't have type 1 diabetes or other major illnesses, they had at least one adult in their childhood they could trust and depend on, and that there were other "dumb luck" factors that led to their success in climbing out of poverty.

Let me further clarify that I am not saying that personal traits or having self-confidence isn't a factor in being able to successfully get out of poverty, I am just saying that personal traits is not the cause of poverty for the vast majority of poor people. You have yet to provide any actual data that the reason the vast majority of poor people are poor is because they lack the ability to delay gratification or simply don't believe in themselves.

Um where's your evidence?

Most children will qualify for Medicaid so how exactly does diabetes factor in?

 

[redfish955]

1 or 2 anecdotes do not provide evidence for millions of people or for what the norm is. Not to mention that even redfish's anecdote doesn't really contradict my argument. Redfish doesn't address what factors lead to them growing up in poverty to begin with, and doesn't make the claim that the thing that got them out of poverty was the ability to delay gratification/believe in themselves. Rather, having access to food, albeit cheap and unsatisfying, as well as access to transportation and to education were keys for them to get out of poverty. I also have to assume that Redfish doesn't have type 1 diabetes or other major illnesses, they had at least one adult in their childhood they could trust and depend on, and that there were other "dumb luck" factors that led to their success in climbing out of poverty.

Let me further clarify that I am not saying that personal traits or having self-confidence isn't a factor in being able to successfully get out of poverty, I am just saying that personal traits is not the cause of poverty for the vast majority of poor people. You have yet to provide any actual data that the reason the vast majority of poor people are poor is because they lack the ability to delay gratification or simply don't believe in themselves.

I grew up in a 4200 square foot home in a gated community in an affluent part of a big city. My parents are now worth close to three million USD and retired. Lots of people went to college on a budget and ate ****ty food growing up. Quit making assumptions like ****ty diets results in people that don't save or don't finish their education, or etc.

 

[deleted898085]

Um where's your evidence?

Most children will qualify for Medicaid so how exactly does diabetes factor in?

Have you ever heard about African American kids don't have dads and are hungry most of the time at school?
Have you ever done any volunteer work for organizations for low income and poor ppl?

 

[wagrxm2000]

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2022-32 decade.

www.bls.gov

The poverty level for a family of 4 is 26k.

We're talking about 4 million people working for barely over minimum wage.

Are you telling me all these people fit your mold for why they are poor?

Just use Walgreens as an example. There's at least 10 employees at all their stores working for barely over minimum wage. What's their reason?

Stop making excuses.

 

[wagrxm2000]

How do you know they fit your mold for why they are poor?

Their reasons could be lack of transportation to get them to locations with better jobs, having a criminal record that greatly limits their job opportunities, having mental health issues that prevent them from taking on more stressful jobs, lacking skills for a better job, not being able to afford to go back to school or having learning disabilities that make it impractical to go back to school...

I'm done here. Can't handle the constant excuses.

 

[deleted898085]

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2022-32 decade.

www.bls.gov

The poverty level for a family of 4 is 26k.

We're talking about 4 million people working for barely over minimum wage.

Are you telling me all these people fit your mold for why they are poor?

Just use Walgreens as an example. There's at least 10 employees at all their stores working for barely over minimum wage. What's their reason?

Stop making excuses.

Where do you get this 4 million from?
Did you really look at his citation about numbers in poverty?

 

[redfish955]

How do you know they fit your mold for why they are poor?

Their reasons could be lack of transportation to get them to locations with better jobs, having a criminal record that greatly limits their job opportunities, having mental health issues that prevent them from taking on more stressful jobs, lacking skills for a better job, not being able to afford to go back to school or having learning disabilities that make it impractical to go back to school...

I am missing a lobe in my brain. I have schizoeffective disorder. I ate ****ty hot dog pasta growing up. I still turned out fine.
I participate in big brother big sisters. Most of these people are flat out being neglected and money won't solve the issue.
A huge percent of homeless people have mental health issues. This is where reform needs to take place.

 

[BMBiology]

How do you know they fit your mold for why they are poor?

Their reasons could be lack of transportation to get them to locations with better jobs, having a criminal record that greatly limits their job opportunities, having mental health issues that prevent them from taking on more stressful jobs, lacking skills for a better job, not being able to afford to go back to school or having learning disabilities that make it impractical to go back to school...

Being short sucks too. People find you less attractive. You are less likely to get promoted, less likely to hold leadership position. What should we do for short people?

 

[JustFillIt]

Being short sucks too. People find you less attractive. You are less likely to get promoted, less likely to hold leadership position. What should we do for short people?

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www.theheightlift.com

 

[deleted898085]

Being short sucks too. People find you less attractive. You are less likely to get promoted, less likely to hold leadership position. What should we do for short people?

The list will be on: being black, being minority...
Best answer? UBI

 

[BMBiology]

Left handed people earn less than right handed. What should we do for them?

Are Left-Handed People More Successful? Here's How Science Says Handedness Affects Your Career Choice and Earnings - Wall St. Watchdog

Are Left-Handed People More Successful? Here's How Science Says Handedness Affects Your Career Choice and Earnings

www.cheatsheet.com

 

[Lubeckd]

While people were partying and you were studying is a example of delay gratification

 

[deleted480308]

Nice non sequitur...

You do seem to actually believe that the vast majority of poor people are poor because they can't delay gratification. I can only hope that you'll be able to some day recognize the circumstances in which poor people are forced to make the choices they make, and why poverty isn't as simple as increasing one's ability to delay gratification. It's a convenient way to avoid having to claim any responsibility for the ways we as a society and economic system create poverty, and make it harder for poor people to escape poverty.

3 Ways Humans Create Poverty

Poverty isn’t just a fact of nature. We made it happen, and we can fix it.

www.fastcompany.com

The reality is it doesn’t matter why they are poorer than me. Or why I am poor than someone else.

If I didn’t rob them, I don’t owe them money. They should have to navigate the world without using govt power to just take my money. I shouldn’t be able to do that to others and neither should they

 

[deleted898085]

Nice non sequitur...

You do seem to actually believe that the vast majority of poor people are poor because they can't delay gratification. I can only hope that you'll be able to some day recognize the circumstances in which poor people are forced to make the choices they make, and why poverty isn't as simple as increasing one's ability to delay gratification. It's a convenient way to avoid having to claim any responsibility for the ways we as a society and economic system create poverty, and make it harder for poor people to escape poverty.

3 Ways Humans Create Poverty

Poverty isn’t just a fact of nature. We made it happen, and we can fix it.

www.fastcompany.com

This is at global scale. Americans can't even understand what's going on in our own country because we still have some minimum wage jobs.
Just wait for automation. We'll probably see more riots, mass shootings, ...

 

[wagrxm2000]

The solution is simple, on your tax form there's a spot that says: give an extra 10% to the government.

Bet no one does it.

Or even better there's a box that says Republican or Democrat. Those that select Democrat get taxed 10% more.

 

[JustFillIt]

While people were partying and you were studying is a example of delay gratification

Yes... yes it would...

 

[deleted480308]

What about the events that lead us to how we are able to make money now? My ability to make money at this point in time is largely a result of those who came before me using government power (i.e. war) to coerce the indigenous population that lived here before to give up a good portion of their land and natural resources. My money is not entirely my own, since the context in which I was able to make it goes way beyond my own actions.

The idea of taking away communal resources via war, building infrastructure using slaves, and then not redistributing any of the wealth generated from an economic system that pushed people into poverty via war and slavery... that just doesn't seem right to me. If we won't use govt power to redistribute wealth, we need to first undo how govt power was used to create wealth inequalities in the first place.

I'm not going back to the dawn of time to right every wrong in the world.

If I didn't do something to you, I don't owe you money. Your distant ancestors harming my distant ancestors doesn't mean you owe me anything. There is plenty of room for personal choices now to change someone's trajectory in life.

 

[redfish955]

What about the events that lead us to how we are able to make money now? My ability to make money at this point in time is largely a result of those who came before me using government power (i.e. war) to coerce the indigenous population that lived here before to give up a good portion of their land and natural resources. My money is not entirely my own, since the context in which I was able to make it goes way beyond my own actions.

The idea of taking away communal resources via war, building infrastructure using slaves, and then not redistributing any of the wealth generated from an economic system that pushed people into poverty via war and slavery... that just doesn't seem right to me. If we won't use govt power to redistribute wealth, we need to first undo how govt power was used to create wealth inequalities in the first place.

There are still american companies doing this in south america today.

 

[deleted898085]

Say you inherited a stolen car. You didn't steal it yourself, but ignoring that it was stolen doesn't change the fact that it was stolen. If you use the stolen car, do you not owe anything to the person it was stolen from?

Wow you have lots of patience!
I do admire you.

 

[deleted480308]

Say you inherited a stolen car. You didn't steal it yourself, but ignoring that it was stolen doesn't change the fact that it was stolen. If you use the stolen car, do you not owe anything to the person it was stolen from?

a trackable stolen item? as in, you can prove who owned it and when it was stolen? they own the car

a vague claim that someone who looks like me 6 generations ago probably wronged someone who looks like you but you have no way of proving my people did it to your people and maybe by now a bunch of our people are actually intermarried? yeah, I don't owe you anything

 

[redfish955]

Everyone was poor as **** during the great depression. No one had anything. Now, why are the grand kids of some of these people surgeons and tenured stem professors? While other ones are pallet stackers? Can anyone explain this to me?

 

[deleted480308]

We're obviously not going to agree on what price we need to pay in the present day (if at all), but there is nothing vague about how the US govt used its power to massacre and enslave other people in order to build the economic system we get to benefit from today.

but there is absolutely a lot of vagueness about how much financial was done, who it was done too, what percentage of someone's lineage was done wrong then, what percentage of benefit from that was derived by those alive now, and how much of that alleged "debt" has already been paid back with our nation's welfare programs and preferential programs.

What isn't vague, is that no one alive now did those things back then.

 

[Lubeckd]

We're obviously not going to agree on what price we need to pay in the present day (if at all), but there is nothing vague about how the US govt used its power to massacre and enslave other people in order to build the economic system we get to benefit from today.

Not the same race means no trust. Doesn't want to pay for others not of same race

 

[deleted480308]

Not the same race means no trust. Doesn't want to pay for others not of same race

Where are you getting race from this?

 

[Lubeckd]

Where are you getting race from this?

Scandivians want to pay for white people. Americans don't wanna pay for minorities. Scandivian society is in uproar with paying for non whites right now

 

[deleted480308]

Scandivians want to pay for white people. Americans don't wanna pay for minorities. Scandivian society is in uproar with paying for non whites right now

I think it's possible you are extrapolating incorrectly. I don't have anything to do with scandinavia, but not wanting to pay a huge influx of people who aggressively resist assimilating your culture isn't necessarily just about race

In regards to our American discussion, I resent the notion that the govt be used to make anyone pay for anyone else regardless of reason if there wasn't a personal wrong

 

[Lubeckd]

I think it's possible you are extrapolating incorrectly. I don't have anything to do with scandinavia, but not wanting to pay a huge influx of people who aggressively resist assimilating your culture isn't necessarily just about race

In regards to our American discussion, I resent the notion that the govt be used to make anyone pay for anyone else regardless of reason if there wasn't a personal wrong

Well topic is about scandivian European Bernie program to forgive student loans and other socalism policies. Just saying we are not scandivian population and ethnicity wise

 

[deleted480308]

Well topic is about scandivian European Bernie program to forgive student loans and other socalism policies. Just saying we are not scandivian population and ethnicity wise

Now I understand your reference

 

[wagrxm2000]

One thing that can't be argued is the government is clueless with our money.

I can't even imagine how better the economy would be if our money was making 7% a year instead <2% from those social security taxes for example.

All that money lost in compounding makes me sad. Just think about all the money that could have gone towards charities.

 

[BMBiology]

This is why I support UBI. Everyone gets $1000/month. You can spend it on whatever you need - healthcare, transportation, housing. Everybody gets it so there is no stigma. It gives the power to the people.

 

[deleted480308]

Maybe it's hard to quantify in specific $ values and pin it on an individual person, but I wouldn't say there is anything vague about who on a population-wide level was wronged and who benefited from the US govt's use of power to steal labor and land. And until race is no longer a predictor of your socioeconomic status in the US, we still have a ways to go to undo the harm that was done.

Just because we specifically didn't commit these acts doesn't mean we can pretend that we are now all functioning from a clean slate without actually cleaning the slate.

but "someone did us wrong" isn't the only confounding factor of racial disparity so you can't say logically that until those metrics are even someone is still owed something. It's not like asians are outperforming everyone because everyone gives preferential treatment to asians. And the races aren't these monolithic and separate structures anymore that you can assign blame and benefit too. The whole notion you are pushing is flawed

 

[deleted480308]

This is why I support UBI. Everyone gets $1000/month. You can spend it on whatever you need - healthcare, transportation, housing. Everybody gets it so there is no stigma. It gives the power to the people.

There should absolutely be a stigma to taking money from your neighbors with govt force, UBI is a bad idea

 

[deleted480308]

It's not a perfect measure, but it is indicative of the lasting harms of US govt endorsed theft of land and labor, and that unequal access to reaping the benefits of the resulting economic system persist.

246 years of slavery and 89 years of segregation will take more than 6 generations to undo. Not to mention the ongoing struggles of Native American tribes.

Then what is the end point you propose objectively?

And I'm going to go ahead and suggest that govt has made it worse with the attempts to help. Self governance on reservations has isolated the tribes economically and stalled them from recovery. Govt welfare and war on drugs has damaged the family structure too which is far more indicative of economic outlook than race

 

[radio frequency]

It's not a perfect measure, but it is indicative of the lasting harms of US govt endorsed theft of land and labor, and that unequal access to reaping the benefits of the resulting economic system persist.

246 years of slavery and 89 years of segregation will take more than 6 generations to undo. Not to mention the ongoing struggles of Native American tribes.

Thank you.
It’s important to recognize as a person lacking melanin, I unfortunately owe a lot of my success to the harm that was done to others before I got here. My family was not discriminated against due to race, so they were able to buy a home in a nice neighborhood after saving for a long time. They received assets from family members when they passed on. These family members had also received assets, dating back multiple generations.

While my family isn’t known to have owned slaves, many families in the States did. And these families extracted labor freely from the bodies of others with no human rights, unjustly enriching themselves and passing this inheritance onward to their younger kin. They separated children and parents, and accorded human beings fewer rights than animals, for many generations. Then after freeing these slaves, they discriminated against them for over a century, and many continue to do so.

If you think enough time has passed that all previous multi-generational harm done to slaves and their descendants should be forgiven and forgotten, you haven’t thought about this much.

 

[BMBiology]

There should absolutely be a stigma to taking money from your neighbors with govt force, UBI is a bad idea

You would rather let the government decides who gets what or you would rather give that power to the people?

 

[deleted898085]

Thank you.
It’s important to recognize as a person lacking melanin, I unfortunately owe a lot of my success to the harm that was done to others before I got here. My family was not discriminated against due to race, so they were able to buy a home in a nice neighborhood after saving for a long time. They received assets from family members when they passed on. These family members had also received assets, dating back multiple generations.

While my family isn’t known to have owned slaves, many families in the States did. And these families extracted labor freely from the bodies of others with no human rights, unjustly enriching themselves and passing this inheritance onward to their younger kin. They separated children and parents, and accorded human beings fewer rights than animals, for many generations. Then after freeing these slaves, they discriminated against them for over a century, and many continue to do so.

If you think enough time has passed that all previous multi-generational harm done to slaves and their descendants should be forgiven and forgotten, you haven’t thought about this much.

Thank you, too.
I can't remember if I took American history class at community college since I came here but this discussion reminds and opens further what I've known.

 

[radio frequency]

Thank you, too.
I can't remember if I took American history class at community college since I came here but this discussion reminds and opens further what I've known.

History class is important for learning the facts. I didn’t always see things this way though. Reading literature from viewpoints other than my own really humanized this and helped me see the harm that was done in an entirely new light. Slavery and the aftermath was so much worse than I was taught in school. I credit Ta-Nehisi Coates’ books with opening my eyes. Even while reading, I didn’t agree with everything, but I could really understand his reasoning and it was solid.

 

[deleted480308]

You would rather let the government decides who gets what or you would rather give that power to the people?

The govt shouldn’t be taking people’s money and redistributing it. If you want money, you should earn it through voluntary commerce

 

[deleted480308]

Thank you.
It’s important to recognize as a person lacking melanin, I unfortunately owe a lot of my success to the harm that was done to others before I got here. My family was not discriminated against due to race, so they were able to buy a home in a nice neighborhood after saving for a long time. They received assets from family members when they passed on. These family members had also received assets, dating back multiple generations.

While my family isn’t known to have owned slaves, many families in the States did. And these families extracted labor freely from the bodies of others with no human rights, unjustly enriching themselves and passing this inheritance onward to their younger kin. They separated children and parents, and accorded human beings fewer rights than animals, for many generations. Then after freeing these slaves, they discriminated against them for over a century, and many continue to do so.

If you think enough time has passed that all previous multi-generational harm done to slaves and their descendants should be forgiven and forgotten, you haven’t thought about this much.

Who said forgiven and forgotten?