The Point is That Segregating Yourself Doesn't Help with Diversity

[Sprgrover]

..What we need in this country are more opportunities given to people inspite of their merit... yeah, sounds like a winner to me. We need more open mindedness and less discrimination. I think everyone who graduated with a 2.8 in college should get to go to medical school because that is what they are applying for and then we should let them do surgery because after all because by-golley, there just aren't enough of those kinds of people cutting open patients across this country....

Read my argument a bit more closely: In no place in my statement do I advocate rewarding individuals with seats in professional schools inspite of their merit. What I am declaring is that an applicant's merit should be recognized inspite of factors such as the color of their skin or religious beliefs.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[tx oms]

Has the thought ever crossed your mind that this 'special treatment', a.k.a. Affirmative Action and other policies, while not perfect, is designed to protect applicants from such very real and thriving factors so that their merits and accomplishments are not eclipsed by the biased tendencies of others?

So America is so bad that no minority can do anything without aide? How do you objectively measure racism? How long after abolition and the civil rights era do we continue Affirmative Action? 100 year? 200 years? 174.3 years? I know racism does and always will exist, but what is the threshold at which it is low enough to be negligible?

Think about it: we live in a world in which everyone uses stereotypes to navigate their daily lives. ' The ground is hard.' 'Lit rear lights means the car ahead is braking.' 'That person is wearing a skirt and heels - it's a female.'

Those are facts, not stereotypes. Stereotypes are generalities based on past experience and cultural knowledge. A stereotype might be "this ground is made of concrete and looks wet, it's probably slippery", similar to "He's chinese, he must like math".

This 'special treatment' is designed to protect the recipients against negative viewpoints and to have a shot at whatever he/she is applying for.

It actually increases stereotypes and negative viewpoints, like, "He only got the job b/c he's (whatever race)." If Affirmative Action doesn't exist people assume someone got where they are on merit.

From your posts I'm not clear what you see as the role of Affirmative Action: filling the ranks with minorities or helping qualified minorities get jobs they may otherwise be declined b/c of race.

One problem with Affirmative Action is it polices thought, a process which is impossible. Without blatent statements from an employer you can't prove they declined to hire someone purely b/c of race.

Do your beliefs apply to all minorities? Does a rich Asian kid deserve special treatment like a poor black kid? Or are we going to just turn Affirmative Action into a reparations program?

 

[tx oms]

Read my argument a bit more closely: In no place in my statement do I advocate rewarding individuals with seats in professional schools inspite of their merit. What I am declaring is that an applicant's merit should be recognized inspite of factors such as the color of their skin or religious beliefs.

They are, even without affirmative action.

 

[Sprgrover]

So America is so bad that no minority can do anything without aide? How do you objectively measure racism? How long after abolition and the civil rights era do we continue Affirmative Action? 100 year? 200 years? 174.3 years? I know racism does and always will exist, but what is the threshold at which it is low enough to be negligible?

Good questions, but unfortunately there are no solid answers to them. Given our collective past as humans we will probably never be free of issues such as racism and bigotry, but I don't believe ceasing all measures that seek to open opportunity, fair treatment, and rewards based on accomplishment to individuals that are not apart of the hegemony is a step in the right diretion.

...Those are facts, not stereotypes. Stereotypes are generalities based on past experience and cultural knowledge. A stereotype might be "this ground is made of concrete and looks wet, it's probably slippery", similar to "He's chinese, he must like math"...

Really? Past experience would tell you that the ground is hard, but what if you sank upon stepping on it? Past experience would tell you that lit brake lights mean a vehicle is slowing down, but what if the lights on that vehicle are malfunctioning and the vehicle is maintaining its velocity? What if the person in the highheels and the skirt is really a male? In each of those scenarios a person is lead to a "logical" conclusion based on a generalization derived from past experience, i.e. a stereotype, and in each of these scenarios an instance is given which disproves them as fact. The term encompasses a lot more than just racial profiles.

...It actually increases stereotypes and negative viewpoints, like, "He only got the job b/c he's (whatever race)." If Affirmative Action doesn't exist people assume someone got where they are on merit...

"It" has the agency to act on a conscious human? Assumptions, biases, opinions are all the creations of a person's mind born out of both cultural and person experiences and factors - right or wrong. Because a person reinforces their beliefs based on an object doesn't mean the problem lies within the object. Is the fear of water by someone scared of it generated by him/her, or is the fear an innate property of the water? So the problem here is not a person of 'color' being denied an opportunity based on the color of their skin but rather a policy, albeit imperfect, designed to prevent such discrimination and how it reinforces your perception of such a person? I bet that if policies and actions such as AA were repealed whether or not "people" perceive a minorities' accomplishments being earned based on merit would not be at the top of their woes.

...From your posts I'm not clear what you see as the role of Affirmative Action: filling the ranks with minorities or helping qualified minorities get jobs they may otherwise be declined b/c of race...

Helping minorities obtain jobs and positions they might not otherwise gain. Given the demographics of America, especially in places such as California, if this were to happen I'm sure the ranks would fill up with minorities as a result.

...One problem with Affirmative Action is it polices thought, a process which is impossible. Without blatent statements from an employer you can't prove they declined to hire someone purely b/c of race...

Affirmative Action does not police thought, it polices action. They're two distinct things; let me clarify this point. AA does not state that it is illegal to hold racist beliefs. What it does say is that it is illegal to let such beliefs influence actions such as hiring practices and who you let into your federally funded institution.

...Do your beliefs apply to all minorities? Does a rich Asian kid deserve special treatment like a poor black kid? Or are we going to just turn Affirmative Action into a reparations program?

Yes, they do, on the grounds of religion, color of skin, patterns of speech and other things that designate someone as being a part of one ethnic or racial group as opposed to another. I'm not addressing socio-economic factors in my argument, and certainly not the sticky topic of reparations, because last time I witnessed discrimination based on race it didn't first examine the balance of the recipient's checkbook before coming out.

 

[klfb80]

Good questions, but unfortunately there are no solid answers to them. Given our collective past as humans we will probably never be free of issues such as racism and bigotry, but I don't believe ceasing all measures that seek to open opportunity, fair treatment, and rewards based on accomplishment to individuals that are not apart of the hegemony is a step in the right diretion.



Really? Past experience would tell you that the ground is hard, but what if you sank upon stepping on it? Past experience would tell you that lit brake lights mean a vehicle is slowing down, but what if the lights on that vehicle are malfunctioning and the vehicle is maintaining its velocity? What if the person in the highheels and the skirt is really a male? In each of those scenarios a person is lead to a "logical" conclusion based on a generalization derived from past experience, i.e. a stereotype, and in each of these scenarios an instance is given which disproves them as fact. The term encompasses a lot more than just racial profiles.[/uQUOTE]

Let's be realistic here. When was the last time you stereotyped brake lights on a car or when was the last time you stereotyped the ground as being hard. Are these typically things you sterotype? I think not. Here is the definition straight from websters. Sterotype: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment. Humor me and lets not stretch things out here.

 

[Sprgrover]

... I think not. Here is the definition straight from websters. Sterotype: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern ...

Even by the definition you supplied stereotypes denote a "fixed or general pattern" that conforms to "something" - it doesn't have to be about people, although the term is frequently used in conjunction with them (the use of semicolons denotes alternative or related meanings). I'm not going to continue to argument semantics as my point in including those examples was to demonstrate how everyone, including myself, uses stereotypes (or put more simply a meaning derived from a general pattern) - even at minute, subconscious levels - to make decisions ranging from inatimate objects to whole groups of individuals. They're a very pervasive tool so much so that many people become unaware of their presence, and in this instance when they are applied towards a people as a whole and blended with negative connotations, and how they can be used when making decisions.

 

[klfb80]

Even by the definition you supplied stereotypes denote a "fixed or general pattern" that conforms to "something" - it doesn't have to be about people, although the term is frequently used in conjunction with them (the use of semicolons denotes alternative or related meanings). I'm not going to continue to argument semantics as my point in including those examples was to demonstrate how everyone, including myself, uses stereotypes (or put more simply a meaning derived from a general pattern) - even at minute, subconscious levels - to make decisions ranging from inatimate objects to whole groups of individuals. They're a very pervasive tool so much so that many people become unaware of their presence, and in this instance when they are applied towards a people as a whole and blended with negative connotations, and how they can be used when making decisions.

Agree with most of what your saying, I guess. But what I'm telling you is that the reference to the brake lights and ground being hard in the statement it was taken from are not comparable to that of stereotypes of affirmative action. The frame of reference is not the same and is all together not in the same ballpark.

 

[AhhPuller]

everyone, including myself, uses stereotypes (or put more simply a meaning derived from a general pattern) - even at minute, subconscious levels - to make decisions ranging from inatimate objects to whole groups of individuals.

So how about we just give every single group that may be subject to any sort of discrimination a free pass to opportunity regarless of merit. Some might not like Italians because of a bad experience growing up; it might be Australians for others because of that annoying Steve Irwin guy; or maybe the Vietnamese because someone might have a sterotype about them and their Viet-cong relatives. I hope you're starting to see my point.

Sterotypes are everywhere, and they are held about every single group or classification of people you can think of. You simply can't try to negate those realities by giving some groups things they don't deserve. You know what you could do?! Treat people equally; no hand-outs for any group. They'll get over it.

 

[AhhPuller]

Just an interesting email I recieved a few weeks ago. I found it to be on the money, very sad, but true. Here it is:


Going to Mexico

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I
would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from

the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can

help with this.I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas

and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my

way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need,

whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flagpole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, and please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the US flag from my house top, put US flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want anycomplaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't
enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on theeconomy. I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

14. I'd also like to alter their national anthem and sing it in English.

Such a disgrace to all the men that have shed blood for this country.

 

[tx oms]

C'mon, doesn't someone have something to say? I relish the debate.

 

[L8DYV]

C'mon, doesn't someone have something to say? I relish the debate.

hi!

 

[food4thots]

14. I'd also like to alter their national anthem and sing it in English.

Such a disgrace to all the men that have shed blood for this country.

i saw a funny clip about this on the daily show pointing out that george w. believes it should be sung in english.

in an interview, the first lady was asked what she thought. she said it's ok to have it sung in spanish. when the reporter told her the president's stance on it.. she said that it should be sung in english. i thought that was pretty embarrassing.

 

[AUG2UAG]

Such a disgrace to all the men that have shed blood for this country.

Recently or not, alot of these men have been Spanish speaking.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand-- I fully agree that today's divide is much less racial than economic, which in most part defines socioeconomic, i think ; entrance to dental school should be based on merit, with all things remaining constant.

"Segregation" (is this word being used a little too liberally?) of people into their own defined groups is an individual decision. If I, as a person from Pluto, lived my whole life leading up to this point as a person who simply did not care to spend more time with other Plutonians, but would rather have spent time having fun and being free spirited is my choice.

Similarly, if I as a Plutonian now feel that at this point in my life I would like to associate with others in the outer galactic realm due to interests to see what it's like (I mean, I did spend the whole entire time prior to this not having been with others of the outer galactic realm), then that's my perogative.

Although it may not be healthy, many groups (eg Zoroastrians in India, orthodox Jewish, blue blooded families) have segregated themselves in the past. Genetically and culturally, it benefits people to mix; unfortunately, I feel that we make things more complicated than they are.

 

[esclavo]

Read my argument a bit more closely: In no place in my statement do I advocate rewarding individuals with seats in professional schools inspite of their merit. What I am declaring is that an applicant's merit should be recognized inspite of factors such as the color of their skin or religious beliefs.

I sat on an admission committee to dental school and I had equal voice with all others on the committee. No one gave a crap about skin color or religious belief. The only time I ever remember it even being discussed it put that person over the top, not considered a liability. You are still stuck in the 1960's. In fact anyone who wasn't white or male got MORE consideration than all others. I distinctly remember people who weren't male and weren't white getting accepted when they were clearly less meritorious based upon research, standardized scores, GPA etcetera as this supposed "advantaged white male group". The worst group to be in is poor-white-male because even though you are the same economic status as other disadvantaged people you don't get the nod....I am male, I come from a "disadvantaged" back ground, I am not white, and even I can recognize this!!!!! Merit isn't merit anymore....

 

[AhhPuller]

Recently or not, alot of these men have been Spanish speaking.

Knowledge of English is currently still a requirement to be a US soldier. I don't think anyone has a problem with Spanish as a native language.

 

[NoBraces]

C'mon, doesn't someone have something to say? I relish the debate.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

 

[Frank Cavitation]

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

From that PBS page: Genetic differences do exist between individuals and between groups, but those differences don't follow racial lines.

oh no~ all the racial predilection stuff I crammed for oral path was useless!! and lost income when referring out exo of patients of african descent

 

[JMoney]

that was probably the most worthless post i have ever seen in my life

first off, his point wasn't that racism doesn't exist. his point was that if the white kids banded together and made an all white club they would get ridiculed because of it and that's a double standard.

Second of all how do you know if he hasn't lived the life of a minority? Just because he's white? Well I'm extremely white and you know what? I live in an extremely black neighborhood in buffalo. When I first moved here and would go running the people sitting on their proches would yell "cracker" at me. I can give you more examples if you would like. You say don't dismiss anything you don't understand, maybe you shouldn't dismiss the fact that racism affects white people as well. Not every white person in this country is living the good life, there are more poor white people in this country than there are poor immigrants of your nationality.

Not to mention while your example of the vietnamese person is probably true for a lot of people. But isn't American culture the idea of assimilation and blending of cultures. The idea is that one can come here and contribute and share their culture. Segregating yourself will just feed the beast that is racism.

In case you read this and freak out thikning that I'm racist let me give you another example of what us honkeys are trying to say: My background is german/austrian and I have blonde hair and blue eyes, I am the only person in my class with both of those traits. If I started up a club for people like me because I feel misunderstood I guarantee you people would thikn it's racist or some kind of KKK thing (even if it was just to promote sunscreen awareness during the summer months). But all the minorities have their clubs so how is this fair?

AMEN brother!!

 

[LSR1979]

I know this is medical and not dental, but I thought I would share these entrance numbers with you.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

If you are a minority, all you need is a pulse and a GED to get into medical school. There really is no denying what these stats tell you - less qualified candidates get accepted into professional schools based ONLY on their race. Don't give me some garbage about "well they might have better intangible factors" than somebody else. That may well be the case for one or two select applicants, but across the board, being a minority is easily the biggest advantage you can have when trying to get into professional school.

 

[NoBraces]

This analysis is based on the data in the link sent by LSR1979 as well as the 2000 Census.


Med Applicants in 2004:
Hispanic = (2,545/35,735) x 100 = 7.1% (12.5% of population, non-white)
Black = 6.5% (12.3% of population)
Asians = 18.8% (3.6% of population)
Native American = 0.134% (0.1% of population)
Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander = 0.109% (0.1% of population)
White = 58.8% (69.1% of population, non-Hispanic)
Other = 0.32% (5.5% of population)
Multi-racial = 3.1% (2.4% of population)

Med Matriculants in 2004:
Hispanic = (1175/16648) x 100 = 7.1% (12.5% of population, non-white)
Black = 7.8% (12.3% of population)
Asians = 18.6% (3.6% of population)
Native American = 0.288% (0.1% of population)
Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander = 0.066% (0.1% of population)
White = 62.1% (69.1% of population, non-Hispanic)
Other = 0.23% (5.5% of population)
Multi-racial = 3.0% (2.4% of population)

Non-Asian minorities matriculating = 18.5%
Asian matriculating = 18.6%
Whites matriculating = 62.1%

Conclusion:
1) Asians are over-represented minorities in medical school. This fact is well-known and Affirmative Action does not apply to Asian applicants. However, based on test scores Asians and whites score about the same on average.

2) Asians and whites seem to have the same chance of getting in if they have the same stats.

3) Comparing the average test scores of 2004 matriculants non-Asian matriculant minorities scored less than whites

References:
MCAT scores and GPAs by Hispanic Ethnicity or Non-Hispanic Race, 2004: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

U.S. Census Bureau 2000: http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...r=GCT-P6&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-format=US-9

 

[samwY]

"If I started up a club for people like me because I feel misunderstood I guarantee you people would thikn it's racist or some kind of KKK thing (even if it was just to promote sunscreen awareness during the summer months). But all the minorities have their clubs so how is this fair?" -superchris

You're way too defensive.

Go ahead, make your club with only blondehair/blueeyed people. No one will care dude. I'm Asian. I wouldn't care. My white friends wouldn't care, black people wouldn't care, no one would care. Do we complain that pre-dominantly white fraternities exist? Not really, it's the same thing.

Now if you make the club and start doing racist protests, or practice some racial idealogy or something, that's different.

There is nothing wrong with grouping yourself with people who share the same interests, hobbies, and *culture*. Clubs aren't about ideologies, and the white people complaining about minorities making clubs need to control their defensive way of thinking and understand it's not even like that. And to make it even more clear, I know plenty of white people who join or attend Asian clubs because they are into the culture (and sometimes they just want free food), and it just works out for everyone. Race is not the issue for most clubs. Who knows, if you made your blondehair/blueeye club, I'd try and join to hit on some of the hot ladies.


And about affirmative action...
"Life is not fair." -D. Trump

 

[samwY]

This analysis is based on the data in the link sent by LSR1979 as well as the 2000 Census.


Med Applicants in 2004:
Hispanic = (2,545/35,735) x 100 = 7.1% (12.5% of population, non-white)
Black = 6.5% (12.3% of population)
Asians = 18.8% (3.6% of population)
Native American = 0.134% (0.1% of population)
Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander = 0.109% (0.1% of population)
White = 58.8% (69.1% of population, non-Hispanic)
Other = 0.32% (5.5% of population)
Multi-racial = 3.1% (2.4% of population)

Med Matriculants in 2004:
Hispanic = (1175/16648) x 100 = 7.1% (12.5% of population, non-white)
Black = 7.8% (12.3% of population)
Asians = 18.6% (3.6% of population)
Native American = 0.288% (0.1% of population)
Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander = 0.066% (0.1% of population)
White = 62.1% (69.1% of population, non-Hispanic)
Other = 0.23% (5.5% of population)
Multi-racial = 3.0% (2.4% of population)

Non-Asian minorities matriculating = 18.5%
Asian matriculating = 18.6%
Whites matriculating = 62.1%

Conclusion:
1) Asians are over-represented minorities in medical school. This fact is well-known and Affirmative Action does not apply to Asian applicants. However, based on test scores Asians and whites score about the same on average.

2) Asians and whites seem to have the same chance of getting in if they have the same stats.

3) Comparing the average test scores of 2004 matriculants non-Asian matriculant minorities scored less than whites

References:
MCAT scores and GPAs by Hispanic Ethnicity or Non-Hispanic Race, 2004: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2004/mcatgparaceeth.htm

U.S. Census Bureau 2000: http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...r=GCT-P6&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&-format=US-9