The Point is That Segregating Yourself Doesn't Help with Diversity

[Sprgrover]

...It directly implies that minorities aren't smart enough/capable enough to earn something on their own merrit.

The above statement is predicated on the assumption that racial and cultural bias does not exist amongst admission committees, both at the undergraduate and graduate levels. America's demographics are changing rapidly, however, the graduates of healthcare related fields, dentistry included, do not reflect these demographics. The reasons for this are complex, but one of them is that schools are not doing an adequate job of recruiting students of varied backgrounds. As Martinelli pointed out, it does make a huge difference to many patients what racial and cultural background his/her doctor is. Let's not forget that any treatment plan is not merely a doctor/practitioner acting upon a patient, but rather it is a partnership between the two. Patient's feel more comfortable with the practioner and their judgements if they share a similar background. Don't negate the tremendous psychological component the patient brings to it; if he/she doesn't feel comfortable around the practitioner, that he/she doesn't understand or appreciate their values and why some forms of treatment might be unacceptable and so on, the patient's compliance will most likely decrease, or worse yet, the patient will cease treatment althogether or won't seek it to begin with. At that point it doesn't matter if you were the best or the brightest or if you aced such-and-such standardized test: if you are unable gain patient trust and gain compliance then your skills as a practitioner won't be as effective or effective at all. You can argue until you are blue it the face that such issues are a patient's problem but that doesn't change the fact that it is a barrier nonetheless. Besides trying to attract qualified applicants, and you can find them in any cultural group, schools do have a responsibility to create a student body reflective of our nation's demographics so as to discourage as many barriers and complications to the access of healthcare as possible.

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[AhhPuller]

Patient's feel more comfortable with the practioner and their judgements if they share a similar background.

I've spent the past few years in the medical field, and I can tell you only from personal experience that many patients of minority descent prefer white doctors. I'm not sure why it's so, but, if there is ever a mistake from a non-white doctor, they usually blame it on his/her ethnicity. While your argument is sound and, perhaps slightly ideal, it's simply not the case in the majority of interactions I've witnessed.

 

[fightingspirit]

I've spent the past few years in the medical field, and I can tell you only from personal experience that many patients of minority descent prefer white doctors. I'm not sure why it's so, but, if there is ever a mistake from a non-white doctor, they usually blame it on his/her ethnicity. While your argument is sound and, perhaps slightly ideal, it's simply not the case in the majority of interactions I've witnessed.

i agree with that. unfortunate but true....

it is likely that one of the main reasons why non-white dental students try to specialize is to treat financially secure patients through referrals from white GPs who tend to be favored by wealthy white and non-white patients. this is just a theory!!!

 

[Sowthpaw4]

i agree with that. unfortunate but true....

it is likely that one of the main reasons why non-white dental students try to specialize is to treat financially secure patients through referrals from white GPs who tend to be favored by wealthy white and non-white patients. this is just a theory!!!

thank goodness its just another one of your theories. There is no way you can prove that, and calling it "likely" is laughable. Its such a convoluted idea. non-white students specialize in order to treat welathy patients through referrals from white Gp's....so funny

 

[tx oms]

America's demographics are changing rapidly, however, the graduates of healthcare related fields, dentistry included, do not reflect these demographics. The reasons for this are complex, but one of them is that schools are not doing an adequate job of recruiting students of varied backgrounds.

Could it be that the minority population is not creating people qualified for professional school at the same rate their population is growing?

As Martinelli pointed out, it does make a huge difference to many patients what racial and cultural background his/her doctor is. Let's not forget that any treatment plan is not merely a doctor/practitioner acting upon a patient, but rather it is a partnership between the two. Patient's feel more comfortable with the practioner and their judgements if they share a similar background. Don't negate the tremendous psychological component the patient brings to it; if he/she doesn't feel comfortable around the practitioner, that he/she doesn't understand or appreciate their values and why some forms of treatment might be unacceptable and so on, the patient's compliance will most likely decrease, or worse yet, the patient will cease treatment althogether or won't seek it to begin with. At that point it doesn't matter if you were the best or the brightest or if you aced such-and-such standardized test: if you are unable gain patient trust and gain compliance then your skills as a practitioner won't be as effective or effective at all. You can argue until you are blue it the face that such issues are a patient's problem but that doesn't change the fact that it is a barrier nonetheless.

All doctors of any race have to learn to communicate with their patients. Rule number one of public speaking is "know your audience". The ability of a doctor of one race to communicate with a patient of a different race has only to do with the communication skills of the doctor.

Your post basically sounds like a black patient needs a black doctor to speak "jive" to him or he won't understand what's going on. Or, if you take it a little further, the minority patient just isn't capable of understanding lofty concepts.

The reality is that less or uneducated patients of any race may require more explanation but any good doctor can learn to do this.

More than half of my patients are minorities. I am able to establish good rapour with most of my patients, minority or otherwise. The ones I cannot establish rapour with are usually social cripples who are impolite, of any race.

Besides trying to attract qualified applicants, and you can find them in any cultural group, schools do have a responsibility to create a student body reflective of our nation's demographics so as to discourage as many barriers and complications to the access of healthcare as possible.

Yeah, because even the smartest minorities aren't capable of figuring out how to go to dental school. Look, your statement is inherently racist. The reason any person doesn't get healthcare are two fold: 1) They neglect themselves for whatever reason and/or 2) They can't afford it.

Do you really think there are people all over this country sitting at home thinking, "Man, I would go to the doctor if he wasn't white!"? If patients actually think that way, the patient is racist. In that situation the patient is exhibiting reverse discrimination. Why is that my problem? If I'm suppose to work on not being racist why shouldn't the patient do the same?

 

[1FutureDDS]

Look, you have all displayed some very good points here. Some of you may agree that I post too many movie clips to go along with what I say, but this hits directly on this topic. Everyone should watch and learn why not to be racist. http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/20301/National_Lampoons_Amazing_Racist_KKK.html

 

[fightingspirit]

schools do have a responsibility to create a student body reflective of our nation's demographics so as to discourage as many barriers and complications to the access of healthcare as possible.

but i am sure that you do agree that schools also have a responsibility to maintain the standards of the profession. actively recruiting minorities to reflect the demographics is reasonable but it should not be at the expense of admission standards. by this, i am not implying that minorities have poor qualifications; i am just suggesting that they ought to be accepted on the same qualifications/stats as everyone else (in fact, when a black applicant gets a high DAT or MCAT score, d-schools and med-schools generally throw all sorts of scholarships and freerides at them, a treatment that non-minority students don't usually get unless they are exceptional, which is another form of active recruitment that i think is quite logical)...the present dominant form of actively recruiting minorities is affirmative action though. i am afraid it has not served minorities in the way that it was intended to.

most of the blacks taking advantage of it tend to be from the carribean, not african americans (there are exceptions off course, like collin powel, who was one of the best diplomats of all time until ------made him look like a jackass and shamed him into resignation ) . by the same token, most of the hispanics tend to be the white ones. the american indian applicants tend to be white who are 1/8th indian or something like that. neither are real minorities getting into schools nor are people respecting minorities graduating from these schools.

like you said, it is a complex set of reasons why minority proefessionals dont refelct their proportions in the overall population. i just dont think that a lack of active recruitment by professional schools is one of them.

 

[fightingspirit]

Look, you have all displayed some very good points here. Some of you may agree that I post too many movie clips to go along with what I say, but this hits directly on this topic. Everyone should watch and learn why not to be racist. http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/20301/National_Lampoons_Amazing_Racist_KKK.html

 

[AhhPuller]

I don't know why we're all fighting here since affirmative action has worked so incredibly well since its institution in the late 1960s! Thanks to a quota system that has typically worked to better educate blacks, hispanics, and native-americans, they're all no longer in poverty! In fact, they're so happy that their white counterparts have given them every single opportunity known to man, even lower admissions standards, that they've all moved out of ghettos and are now happy members of our society. They can now fend for themselves, and don't have to rely on government handouts. Yay!

I hope you sense the sarcasm there. You'll never end discrimination with discrimination; you'll end it with compassion, understanding, and plain old hard work.

 

[1FutureDDS]

Yea, you wouldn't enjoy anything dealing with a little bit of humor would you?

Do you know how when thanksgiving and christmas break roll around, you find yourself eating dinner and being around all of your family. Well you know how the elderly people always bust off some topic on politics and most of the people in the room are thinking "oh **** time to roll the F up out this motha trucka", well congrats, you have acheived reaching that age of 80+ with your boring jargon at the very young age that you most likely are.

Why don't people lighten up. There are always times to be serious and also times to relax and have a laugh.

When the end of your life comes you are going to say "heck yea, i had a wonderful life, i lived a CONSTANT debate, always ready to favor my personal views over anyone else. My life was filled with my constant hatred towards things that I didn't like and I loved living JUST to argue with other people.

Well when the end of my life comes I am going to say "hey, i had a wonderful life, I was always willing to crack jokes and make people feel at ease with whatever topic was brought up. I was able to look back and laugh at some of the ******ed and even not so ******ed things that have happened in our history instead of look back and hold grudges." Do you know it's against Gods will to never forgive people?

These things such as RACISM and KKK and WAR ON TERROR and people LOSING THEIR LIFE for idiotic things are all things that have happened and there's nothing anyone can do to take it back. You don't always have to be macho and hold it in, smile once in a while because of the GREAT life we have TODAY! You're able to get in to dental school and life should be wonderful for you so please GOD stop being so negative towards basically EVERYTHING.

Sorry this sounds like a rant but what the hell why is there even a racism topic who cares, i'm white, you're purple, he's blue, who gives a F, talk to me like we are humans and everything is fine.

Once again, smile more, be happy about life. Experience what has happened in our past and say hey that was some crazy **** and enjoy that fact that you won't have to experience it in your lifetime.

 

[AhhPuller]

Sorry this sounds like a rant but what the hell why is there even a racism topic who cares, i'm white, you're purple, he's blue, who gives a F, talk to me like we are humans and everything is fine.

Once again, smile more, be happy about life. Experience what has happened in our past and say hey that was some crazy **** and enjoy that fact that you won't have to experience it in your lifetime.

Thanks there buddy. Maybe we shouldn't talk about anything important in life, and just "be happy about life." Get a grip. There are serious issues in the world, and serious debate is the only way to come to any sort of an agreement. If you don't like debate or discussion, move to Cuba. Thought and insight will all be taken of for you.

 

[1FutureDDS]

Thanks there buddy. Maybe we shouldn't talk about anything important in life, and just "be happy about life." Get a grip. There are serious issues in the world, and serious debate is the only way to come to any sort of an agreement. If you don't like debate or discussion, move to Cuba. Thought and insight will all be taken of for you.

Um maybe i'm spoiled or something, but I take care of everything in life on my own and see nothing to worry about. This is why I don't run for president, because I don't need to debate. You said maybe we shouldn't talk about anything important in life and just be happy, um yea that would be good thanks, lets start with you. If racism is an "important" topic to you, then you have yet to realize that the people who DEBATE racism, are the only reason why we still HEAR the word racism. THANKS BUDDY ANYTIME THERE BUD-BUD-BUDDY!

 

[AhhPuller]

Um maybe i'm spoiled or something, but I take care of everything in life on my own and see nothing to worry about. This is why I don't run for president, because I don't need to debate. You said maybe we shouldn't talk about anything important in life and just be happy, um yea that would be good thanks, lets start with you. If racism is an "important" topic to you, then you have yet to realize that the people who DEBATE racism, are the only reason why we still HEAR the word racism. THANKS BUDDY ANYTIME THERE BUD-BUD-BUDDY!

Um, OK.

 

[fightingspirit]

Yea,....Experience what has happened in our past and say hey that was some crazy **** and enjoy that fact that you won't have to experience it in your lifetime.

I have nothing against humor. You should see the funny explicit stuff that I have on my laptop. I gave you the thumbs-downs because the video was just ok. There’s good humor and there’s mediocre humor.
You accuse me of being too argumentative. Is it wrong for me to participate in debate? Why don’t you ask other SDNers not to debate? Why don’t you say that by being in debates, they are being argumentative too?
Lately, I have been very careful not to present my views in a way that offends people, and you still complain. Frankly, I don’t know what to do with you.
My thumbs down offended you? Sorry! Perhaps you wanna apologize for calling my posts “garbage” in your previous post…think about it.
We are our experiences. You grew up In America and you’re more idealistic and sanguine. I grew up in a very troubled country and I lived through 2 wars and when we came to the U.S, I could not afford to buy lunch at school. maybe life is all about fun to you (I am not maligning you for it….it’s great to have lived that way) but for me, life has always been challenging in one way or another, be it academic, cultural, social, financial.
I like debate, especially when it is relevant to the contemporary pressing issues of our society, and tx oms opened a relevant subject in a public forum. Like it or not, I will participate when I have something to say. May I also remind you that not all my posts are arguments; many times I try to use my experience in the admissions process to offer feedback for SDN’s new predents.
When I am 80, I will say to myself not only was I able to enjoy my life but I was also able to participate in serious discussions and present alternative views….maybe one of the best ways to rid our society of its ills is to talk about these ills, even if it’s not as fun as the Amazing Racist clip you suggested….at least give me credit for watching it..

Your advice about not taking things too seriously is greatly appreciated though….
.

 

[1FutureDDS]

Thank you for watching my clip

 

[ShawnOne]

The above statement is predicated on the assumption that racial and cultural bias does not exist amongst admission committees, both at the undergraduate and graduate levels. America's demographics are changing rapidly, however, the graduates of healthcare related fields, dentistry included, do not reflect these demographics. The reasons for this are complex, but one of them is that schools are not doing an adequate job of recruiting students of varied backgrounds. As Martinelli pointed out, it does make a huge difference to many patients what racial and cultural background his/her doctor is. Let's not forget that any treatment plan is not merely a doctor/practitioner acting upon a patient, but rather it is a partnership between the two. Patient's feel more comfortable with the practioner and their judgements if they share a similar background. Don't negate the tremendous psychological component the patient brings to it; if he/she doesn't feel comfortable around the practitioner, that he/she doesn't understand or appreciate their values and why some forms of treatment might be unacceptable and so on, the patient's compliance will most likely decrease, or worse yet, the patient will cease treatment althogether or won't seek it to begin with. At that point it doesn't matter if you were the best or the brightest or if you aced such-and-such standardized test: if you are unable gain patient trust and gain compliance then your skills as a practitioner won't be as effective or effective at all. You can argue until you are blue it the face that such issues are a patient's problem but that doesn't change the fact that it is a barrier nonetheless. Besides trying to attract qualified applicants, and you can find them in any cultural group, schools do have a responsibility to create a student body reflective of our nation's demographics so as to discourage as many barriers and complications to the access of healthcare as possible.

I had the dean of academic affairs as a PBL facilitator last week. The issue of diversity, dental admissions, and class size came up. Her comments are generally similiar to what you are saying. However, its not only about race. The problem is motivating people, regardless of race, to serve in areas where access to healthcare is an issue.

 

[tx oms]

Well when the end of my life comes I am going to say "hey, i had a wonderful life, I was always willing to crack jokes and make people feel at ease with whatever topic was brought up. I was able to look back and laugh at some of the ******ed and even not so ******ed things that have happened in our history instead of look back and hold grudges." Do you know it's against Gods will to never forgive people?

I am very sarcastic by nature and love crude humor. However, I am also intraspective and like to debate and discuss things. You sound child-like with your "let's all be happy" and "I avoid hard issues by making jokes" comments. I had an attending tell me once that one reason people make jokes is because they aren't comfortable with something. Perhaps your joking mentality about life signals you aren't comfortable with yourself.

Um maybe i'm spoiled or something, but I take care of everything in life on my own and see nothing to worry about. This is why I don't run for president, because I don't need to debate. You said maybe we shouldn't talk about anything important in life and just be happy, um yea that would be good thanks, lets start with you. If racism is an "important" topic to you, then you have yet to realize that the people who DEBATE racism, are the only reason why we still HEAR the word racism. THANKS BUDDY ANYTIME THERE BUD-BUD-BUDDY!

Pretty arguementative for a peace lover.

 

[esclavo]

The above statement is predicated on the assumption that racial and cultural bias does not exist amongst admission committees, both at the undergraduate and graduate levels. America's demographics are changing rapidly, however, the graduates of healthcare related fields, dentistry included, do not reflect these demographics. The reasons for this are complex, but one of them is that schools are not doing an adequate job of recruiting students of varied backgrounds. As Martinelli pointed out, it does make a huge difference to many patients what racial and cultural background his/her doctor is. Let's not forget that any treatment plan is not merely a doctor/practitioner acting upon a patient, but rather it is a partnership between the two. Patient's feel more comfortable with the practioner and their judgements if they share a similar background. Don't negate the tremendous psychological component the patient brings to it; if he/she doesn't feel comfortable around the practitioner, that he/she doesn't understand or appreciate their values and why some forms of treatment might be unacceptable and so on, the patient's compliance will most likely decrease, or worse yet, the patient will cease treatment althogether or won't seek it to begin with. At that point it doesn't matter if you were the best or the brightest or if you aced such-and-such standardized test: if you are unable gain patient trust and gain compliance then your skills as a practitioner won't be as effective or effective at all. You can argue until you are blue it the face that such issues are a patient's problem but that doesn't change the fact that it is a barrier nonetheless. Besides trying to attract qualified applicants, and you can find them in any cultural group, schools do have a responsibility to create a student body reflective of our nation's demographics so as to discourage as many barriers and complications to the access of healthcare as possible.

This is crazy. If I see a doctor I want to know he is qualified and rigorously proven/screened by his organization (both institutional ie: hospital and by his national organization). I don't care if my doctor is purple or a hermaphrodite as long as he/she is technically excellent and proven in his knowledge and skill. It is the responsibility of the individual to have the desire to be in a health care profession and then to work his/her butt off to get in. It isn't the responsibility of the schools to search far and wide to come up with a quota. The best and brightest should be in the medical field independent of demographics PERIOD! I wish those responsible for bringing in marginally qualified individuals into the medical professions would patronize those doctors because I sure in the heck am not going to go to a doctor who was given the back door through the process of becoming a doctor....I've seen "back door" practitioners of all races (whites whose daddy was a grad of such and such or donated to the school or a minority educated and trained because of afirmative action) and of both sexes. It just isn't good for patient care...

 

[1FutureDDS]

I am very sarcastic by nature and love crude humor. However, I am also intraspective and like to debate and discuss things. You sound child-like with your "let's all be happy" and "I avoid hard issues by making jokes" comments. I had an attending tell me once that one reason people make jokes is because they aren't comfortable with something. Perhaps your joking mentality about life signals you aren't comfortable with yourself.


Pretty arguementative for a peace lover.

Lol not comfortable with myself? Because I see no reason to argue about pointless BS? I never said let's all be happy, i pretty much said there is no reason to NOT be happy. In person I could talk to you about any subject in life with a dead blank stare. The joking is used to make OTHER people feel comfortable. Was this God-like figure attending, whos every word you will believe and follow, a "fun" person? Did you enjoy being around him for any other reason than learning how to do your job? Did he ever smile or enjoy his life? Let me know if he did because maybe it will predict whether he is comfortable with life, and I am truly interested in finding out.

 

[leia05]

This is crazy. If I see a doctor I want to know he is qualified and rigorously proven/screened by his organization (both institutional ie: hospital and by his national organization). I don't care if my doctor is purple or a hermaphrodite as long as he/she is technically excellent and proven in his knowledge and skill. It is the responsibility of the individual to have the desire to be in a health care profession and then to work his/her butt off to get in. It isn't the responsibility of the schools to search far and wide to come up with a quota. The best and brightest should be in the medical field independent of demographics PERIOD! I wish those responsible for bringing in marginally qualified individuals into the medical professions would patronize those doctors because I sure in the heck am not going to go to a doctor who was given the back door through the process of becoming a doctor....I've seen "back door" practitioners of all races (whites whose daddy was a grad of such and such or donated to the school or a minority educated and trained because of afirmative action) and of both sexes. It just isn't good for patient care...

bingo... if you want it, earn it!

 

[PoliticalMD2Be]

I've found that these mostly-Caucausian frats are simply reflective of our mostly white society, but usually include members of other ethnic groups. On the other hand, the "ethnic" frats (asian, hispanic, black, etc) generally only include members of those ethnicities.

In the past Frat/Sororities did not accept minorities as members therefore these minorities created there own Frat/Sororities. As a member of a historically African American Sorority I can say that we do have non African American Members including Caucasians, Asians, Hawaiians and those who identify themselves as Black but are not African American. Sure the majority of our members are African American but our targets and mission mainly focus on the issues that affect Blacks in the U.S. therefore you take a guess at how many non African American members attend our rushes.

 

[AhhPuller]

In the past Frat/Sororities did not accept minorities as members therefore these minorities created there own Frat/Sororities. As a member of a historically African American Sorority I can say that we do have non African American Members including Caucasians, Asians, Hawaiians and those who identify themselves as Black but are not African American. Sure the majority of our members are African American but our targets and mission mainly focus on the issues that affect Blacks in the U.S. therefore you take a guess at how many non African American members attend our rushes.

In the PAST, Italians weren't allowed in Irish social clubs. So what? Does that NOW justify the necessity of a group solely dedicated to the advancement of the Italian agenda? In my view, no. I understand that there are still some ethnic clubs left, but these are a dying breed because most of those of European descent would rather embrace the American ideal. Until we look past our differences and look to the future together, we're doomed to repeat our mistakes.

 

[PoliticalMD2Be]

? It's an Ethnic frat. Let me put it into words you can understand. "No white boys aloud".

Its is an ethnic Frat meaning that they focus on issues that directly affect that ethnicity it does not mean it excludes members based on race. Plus ethnicity and race are two different things. My friend (a white male) is actually the President of his fraternity's chapter and it happens to be a historically African American fraternity. Growing up all his friends were African American and even though racially he is white he identifies his ethnicity as African American.

 

[AhhPuller]

Its is an ethnic Frat meaning that they focus on issues that directly affect that ethnicity it does not mean it excludes members based on race. Plus ethnicity and race are two different things. My friend (a white male) is actually the President of his fraternity's chapter and it happens to be a historically African American fraternity. Growing up all his friends were African American and even though racially he is white he identifies his ethnicity as African American.

Exceptions are by definition never the rule.

 

[martinelli]

I've spent the past few years in the medical field, and I can tell you only from personal experience that many patients of minority descent prefer white doctors. I'm not sure why it's so, but, if there is ever a mistake from a non-white doctor, they usually blame it on his/her ethnicity. While your argument is sound and, perhaps slightly ideal, it's simply not the case in the majority of interactions I've witnessed.

I don't want to discredit your observation, however, for many Asians/African/Hispanic-American dentists that I have encountered, the majority of their patient pool are from their own ethnic group. However, the scenario that you had potrayed reminded me of this "ER" episode that I saw a few years back . But like I said, I don't want to discredit your observation b/c I acknowledge that it is true to a certain extent.

 

[PoliticalMD2Be]

In the PAST, Italians weren't allowed in Irish social clubs. So what? Does that NOW justify the necessity of a group solely dedicated to the advancement of the Italian agenda? In my view, no. I understand that there are still some ethnic clubs left, but these are a dying breed because most of those of European descent would rather embrace the American ideal. Until we look past our differences and look to the future together, we're doomed to repeat our mistakes.

My Sorority is not dedicated to the advancement of some ethnic agenda nor is it anywhere close to dying off. As an Italian/African American mix myself I joined a historically African American Sorority because there are certain traditions they partake in that other sororities did not. Now just because I belong to this Sorority does not mean that all my friends are Black or identify as African American in fact I would say over half of my friends are of another race than my own. People are different that is what needs to be accepted!

 

[tx oms]

People are different that is what needs to be accepted!

Different, but not stupid. Special treatment for anyone really boils down to the conventional wisdom that they aren't qualified on their own merit.

 

[1FutureDDS]

Pretty arguementative for a peace lover.

Nah, pretty ARGUMENTATIVE for a peace lover. Thanks big boy

 

[AhhPuller]

Nah, pretty ARGUMENTATIVE for a peace lover. Thanks big boy

First, BUD-BUD-BUDDY, and, now, BIG BOY?! You have some interesting pet names sir.

 

[1FutureDDS]

First, BUD-BUD-BUDDY, and, now, BIG BOY?! You have some interesting pet names sir.

I believe you were the first to use the word "buddy", so I figured I would try the word out and see how it felt. I know......I know.....the names are so off the wall that, you can't help but get upset......it's cool buddy.

 

[AhhPuller]

My Sorority is not dedicated to the advancement of some ethnic agenda nor is it anywhere close to dying off.

I acknowledge that sadly the formation of ethnic groups is very much here to stay, and I never said otherwise. You also stated that "the majority of our members are African American but our targets and mission mainly focus on the issues that affect Blacks in the U.S." I call your "mission" an ethnic agenda. I'm not saying that your goals are not altruistic and somewhat beneficial, but I am saying that it does more harm than good. Surely the Black Panther Party of the civil rights movement had the nobel goal of advancing the rights of black Americans, but they did more harm by separating themselves from society. It was really Martin Luther King Jr. that brought people of all races together because he looked past race. I think it's his spirit and definetly his life that we're in desperate need.

 

[AhhPuller]

I believe you were the first to use the word "buddy", so I figured I would try the word out and see how it felt. I know......I know.....the names are so off the wall that, you can't help but get upset......it's cool buddy.

Na, the names are cool; I just thought it was funny. I didn't mean to make it personal.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I've spent the past few years in the medical field, and I can tell you only from personal experience that many patients of minority descent prefer white doctors. I'm not sure why it's so, but, if there is ever a mistake from a non-white doctor, they usually blame it on his/her ethnicity. While your argument is sound and, perhaps slightly ideal, it's simply not the case in the majority of interactions I've witnessed.

I have been in healthcare in the southwest for over 10 years and I have also seen this but for good reason. Many of the non-white physicians have such a strong accent that it is almost impossible to understand them. Sometimes I need to verify an order that I can't read due to there poor english and writing so I call them only to find out I still can't understand them. It is hard not to be predudiced against your doctor because you can't communicate with them.

 

[omfsres]

Nah, pretty ARGUMENTATIVE for a peace lover. Thanks big boy

I love the trend on this message board that when somebodies argument loses momentum, they are forced to attack petty things such has spelling to make themselves look better. Here's an idea, why not come up with an original thought. It's much more interesting that way.

 

[1FutureDDS]

I love the trend on this message board that when somebodies argument loses momentum, they are forced to attack petty things such has spelling to make themselves look better. Here's an idea, why not come up with an original thought. It's much more interesting that way.

Nah, I love how something as simple as a spelling correction can get you guys so pressed for a comeback. Losing momentum you say? The only thing i've seen between two threads is momentum gained. Also, I love how someone who isn't even in the "debate", would come and call me out, without contributing to the debate in any way. Suck it up

 

[TeethVader]

I am an Asian-American, and it is natural for me to admit that:

2) But that does not mean that I am intentional in those efforts. In fact, most minorities do not segregate on purpose - it is natural. Yes, there are cultural and ethnic groups on college campuses nationwide, but there also are mostly-Caucasian groups - they are called frats and sororities.

The difference is that caucasian males are beat over the head and called racist for doing what is "natural". Sororities and frats take in members of many different backgrounds, but they do not call themsleves the White-Alpha-Male frat.

If you are Caucasian, please understand that there ARE unfair and/or difficult aspects of being a minority (even if you were born in the US), and that there are valid reasons for associating yourself with others mostly of similar backgrounds. And if you are a minority, please understand that Caucasians may be slightly suspicious of US-born minorities who still seemingly stay away from mainstream society.

Yes, and their are difficult and unfair aspects of being a white male in the U.S.

 

[TeethVader]

Check those stats. They are incorrect. You should be a much higher percent in order to claim it (not sure what percent, I've heard 1/3). In my opinion if you are less than that and have no tribal affiliation your using it as a crutch. I guess he could say i'm 1/10 native american. But if your friend is going around putting that on applications then he is straight up dishonest or atlest not telling the whole truth. People like that never win in the end.

If you're 100% native american and fully affilliated with a tribe, you're still using it as a cruch.

 

[TeethVader]

Similar experiences here. I had a blast in Asia but I was still denied housing, entrance into stores and publicly harrassed because I am white. They are very upfront about it over there.

I live in the San Gabriel Valley here in L.A. I drive down the street and hardly see a sign that isn't in Spanish, Korean, or Chinese. The t.v. stations, the newspapers, as well as most of the people do not speak english. Some have talked about the need to have a national identity and I agree that this is very important. Their was nothing that pissed me off more than to see a bunch of cars driving down the road honking their horn and waving the mexican flag. How would they fill if the roles were reversed. What if Mexico was a rich country and I slipped across the boarder. What If I came in to their country and refused to learn Spanish and instead forced them to put english on everything, forced them to teach in english in their schools, and voted people who were pro-american into office. What if I didn't pay much in taxes and so the school system was horrible and Mexican tax payers had to essentially foot the bill for my kids to go to school. What if I didn't pay much in taxes and so that the city services, police and fire departments were mainly paid for by Mexican tax payers. What if all the emergency rooms closed down because I used their services and didn't pay my bill. What if, along with me, came a torrent of crime, drugs and gangs that threatened Mexican society in the cities in which we settled. Lets face it, if every american that went to Mexico were honest, hard working, and did what was right, then their would be no problem and the benefits to having you their would be readily apparent. No apply the same logic to the reality of what is happening here. Their are good people coming here but all that was mentioned above is also happening.

Speaking on national Identity: If we take history as our lesson, their are few national experiences that we can find that will relate well with the American experience. The one that I can think of is Ancient Rome. This is a civilization that had a few democratic principals. They were the power of their day. Yes, they had slavery and conquered mostly by military might but they could also be suprisingly liberal and inclusive. So much so that over time, Rome became a "melting pot", a cosmopolitan city. It is interesting though that as Rome became more cosmopolitan and more diverse it also became weaker and more corrupt. In fact, the fall of Rome seems to directly parrallel the changes that took place in roman society which were reflective of its cosmopolitan/melting pot populace.

 

[TeethVader]

Crap, I wasn't trying to get in the middle of this. Too late, I guess. No, tx oms, all I am saying is that from my observation, I have never heard a female (white or minority) scream discrimination or reverse discrimination.

Really? I guess you don't go outside or watch t.v. or read the newspaper because its on t.v. or in the newspaper constantly.

 

[TeethVader]

i agree with her..

although it varies w/ schools. i know some schools give minorities preferences based on the fact that these students will be providing services to their respective community, which in many cases, are underserved.

Unfortunately the studies say that the reality of what happens does not support the "minority going back to practice in underserved communities" hypothesis. Instead what we see is that people will generally go where they can make a decent living.

 

[TeethVader]

i agree with that. unfortunate but true....

it is likely that one of the main reasons why non-white dental students try to specialize is to treat financially secure patients through referrals from white GPs who tend to be favored by wealthy white and non-white patients. this is just a theory!!!

or maybe here is another "theory". Maybe its no secret to everyone else that admissions comittes have affirmitive action policies and programs that allow those who are less qualified to obtain possitions. It would logically follow then that any groups who are associated with obtaining admission based on their minority status and not strictly on qualifications will be regarded as less desirable by patients when seeking treatment. This is sad but is rational and logical and is the direct result of allowing race and ethnicity creep into admissions decision making processes. Of course, their are many minority students who have top scores and talents but these will always be overshodowed by the doubt created by the affore mentioned policies. Tx OMS is correct. The most qualified should get the spot regardless of minority status.

 

[QCkid]

Yea, you wouldn't enjoy anything dealing with a little bit of humor would you?

Do you know how when thanksgiving and christmas break roll around, you find yourself eating dinner and being around all of your family. Well you know how the elderly people always bust off some topic on politics and most of the people in the room are thinking "oh **** time to roll the F up out this motha trucka", well congrats, you have acheived reaching that age of 80+ with your boring jargon at the very young age that you most likely are.

Why don't people lighten up. There are always times to be serious and also times to relax and have a laugh.

When the end of your life comes you are going to say "heck yea, i had a wonderful life, i lived a CONSTANT debate, always ready to favor my personal views over anyone else. My life was filled with my constant hatred towards things that I didn't like and I loved living JUST to argue with other people.

Well when the end of my life comes I am going to say "hey, i had a wonderful life, I was always willing to crack jokes and make people feel at ease with whatever topic was brought up. I was able to look back and laugh at some of the ******ed and even not so ******ed things that have happened in our history instead of look back and hold grudges." Do you know it's against Gods will to never forgive people?

These things such as RACISM and KKK and WAR ON TERROR and people LOSING THEIR LIFE for idiotic things are all things that have happened and there's nothing anyone can do to take it back. You don't always have to be macho and hold it in, smile once in a while because of the GREAT life we have TODAY! You're able to get in to dental school and life should be wonderful for you so please GOD stop being so negative towards basically EVERYTHING.

Sorry this sounds like a rant but what the hell why is there even a racism topic who cares, i'm white, you're purple, he's blue, who gives a F, talk to me like we are humans and everything is fine.

Once again, smile more, be happy about life. Experience what has happened in our past and say hey that was some crazy **** and enjoy that fact that you won't have to experience it in your lifetime.

The reason that people like yourself do not care about these issues is because when you have no responsibility and live off of mommy and daddy you have no stake in anything. As you get older and are affected by political issues you tend to feel a little differently. Younger people such as yourself usually feel completely satisfied with taking up the socially popular issues of the day and tend to form opinions that are also socially popular. Wtih age comes more knowledge, experience, and the ability to think for yourself. Your opinions are formed and based on your observations, knowledge, and experience and not on what mommy and daddy or your teacher thinks is important.

 

[1FutureDDS]

Thanks for your kind words. I look forward to growing up. Maybe I can be a fireman when I grow up

 

[toofache32]

I love the trend on this message board that when somebodies argument loses momentum, they are forced to attack petty things such has spelling to make themselves look better. Here's an idea, why not come up with an original thought. It's much more interesting that way.

I think you mean somebody's.

 

[klfb80]

Just an interesting email I recieved a few weeks ago. I found it to be on the money, very sad, but true. Here it is:


Going to Mexico

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I
would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from

the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can

help with this.I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas

and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my

way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need,

whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flagpole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, and please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the US flag from my house top, put US flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want anycomplaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't
enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on theeconomy. I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

 

[klfb80]

Here is one more:


> Received the following from (Tom O'Malley) who was a Director with SW BELL
> in Mexico City.
>
>
>
> You remember I spent five years working in Mexico.
>
> I worked under a tourist Visa for three months and could legally renew it
> for three more months. After that you were working Illegally. I was
> technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval
>
> During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure

> a
> permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport
> that I
> had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the
> same
> except hers did not permit her to work.
>
> To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals
> (not copies) of my:
>
> 1. Birth certificate for Barbara and I.
>
> 2. Marriage certificate.
>
> 3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.
>
> 4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of
> graduation.
>
> 5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at
> least
> one year.
>
> 6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indication I had no arrest
> record in the USand no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good
> standing."
>
> 7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why
> there was no Mexican Citizen with my skills and why my skills were
> important
> to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It
> was fun to write.
>
> All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish
> and
> be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It
> produced
> a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish
> on
> the right.
>
> Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied
> by
> a Mexican Attorney touring Mexican Government office locations and being
> photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location and
> we
> remember at least four locations we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor,
> housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or
> face the consequences. We could not protest any of the Governments actions
> or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in
> fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could
> legally
> bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Loredo Texas.
> This meant we had rented furniture in Mexicowhile awaiting our goods.
> There
> were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.
>
> We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and
> under contract and compliance with Mexican law.
>
> We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing
> process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our
> Headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment
> and
> the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and
> fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a
> six
> dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received
> instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give

> a
> policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it
> against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it
> you
> would have to pay ransom to get it back.
>
> We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number
> of
> our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for
> us
> and we just signed what they prepared. It was about twenty legal size
> pages
> annually.
>
> The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying
> more fees.
>
> Leaving the country meant turning in the FM3 and certifying we were
> leaving
> no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or
> liens) before our household goods were released to customs.
>
> It was a real adventure and if any of our Senators or Congressman went
> through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.
>
> The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep
> its
> citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White
> house
> or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States
> Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and
> during
> most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men
> standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy.
> These protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large
> public
> park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause
> a
> protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.
>
> Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard
> on
> illegal immigrants.
>

 

[fightingspirit]

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need,
whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flagpole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
11. I plan to fly the US flag from my house top, put US flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want anycomplaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't
enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

interesting e-mail. i agree with most of it but the above points are a bit of a stretch (i am assuming you're alluding to illegal mexicans)...the whole english-speaking (alluding to spanish in the U.S) issue is not related to illigeal mexicans. it's because of the hispanic population we have in this country. same thing with classes, flags...4th of july....as far as the "nice job"....hmmm..not so sure that mexicans have "nice jobs". .they kinda take the jobs that you and i do not wanna do....the kinda jobs you'd need to pay a fortune for if you wanted an american to do...mexicans need america but america needs mexicans too...right?...

 

[fightingspirit]

Unfortunately the studies say that the reality of what happens does not support the "minority going back to practice in underserved communities" hypothesis. Instead what we see is that people will generally go where they can make a decent living.

so true....

i guess those who end up practicing in ghettos are either forced to do so through binding contracts or not good enough to be employed at higher SE locations. or maybe a few of them are exceptionally humane...lol...just maybe

 

[Sprgrover]

...Special treatment for anyone really boils down to the conventional wisdom that they aren't qualified on their own merit.

Convential wisdom should never be construed as fact or mistaken for truth and furthermore the above statement sweeps aside any factors of racism or bias, two things that are alive and doing very well across the globe. Has the thought ever crossed your mind that this 'special treatment', a.k.a. Affirmative Action and other policies, while not perfect, is designed to protect applicants from such very real and thriving factors so that their merits and accomplishments are not eclipsed by the biased tendencies of others? Think about it: we live in a world in which everyone uses stereotypes to navigate their daily lives. ' The ground is hard.' 'Lit rear lights means the car ahead is braking.' 'That person is wearing a skirt and heels - it's a female.' While necessary as it is impossible to take in and apply every minute detail that confronts us every second, stereotypes can be harmful when they are blended with unfavorable opinions and stigmas. Because we are so reliant on stereotypes we become blind to both their presence and application and when they are attached to a race, gender, religion, and so on it is often hard for individuals to recognize this and look past their initial judgement or to have the stereotype cloud their decision. This 'special treatment' is designed to protect the recipients against negative viewpoints and to have a shot at whatever he/she is applying for.

 

[esclavo]

stereotypes can be harmful when they are blended with unfavorable opinions and stigmas. Because we are so reliant on stereotypes we become blind to both their presence and application and when they are attached to a race, gender, religion, and so on it is often hard for individuals to recognize this and look past their initial judgement or to have the stereotype cloud their decision. This 'special treatment' is designed to protect the recipients against negative viewpoints and to have a shot at whatever he/she is applying for.

How dare those schools discriminate based upon GPA or standardize tests!!!! How dare those schools have "negative viewpoints" about people who haven't paid the price or don't have the mental capacity to have a "shot at whatever he/she is applying for"....bad schools, bad, bad, bad.

What we need in this country are more opportunities given to people inspite of their merit... yeah, sounds like a winner to me. We need more open mindedness and less discrimination. I think everyone who graduated with a 2.8 in college should get to go to medical school because that is what they are applying for and then we should let them do surgery because after all because by-golley, there just aren't enough of those kinds of people cutting open patients across this country....