The importance of medical school prestige/research for GI fellowship?

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subdermallight

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I’m a rising M1 needing to choose between med schools and I want to keep my end goal of becoming a GI in mind. The prevailing wisdom I see on the premed forum is that a state school which saves money is almost always better than a more prestigious but more expensive school (except if the school is in the T20).

I’m thinking along the lines that prestige of med school (to a degree) makes it easier to match a competitive IM which makes it easier to be accepted into a GI Fellowship.

Apart from “prestige”, I also wonder if I should take into account research. I know research is important during IM for GI but I wonder if getting started in med school could help.

Lastly, I was looking into whether the med schools I’m deciding between have well-known GI fellowships associated with them. Totally not sure if that should factor in or not.

I’m waiting on 6 schools still but currently I’m deciding between USF, FAU, Loyola Stritch, Wayne State, GW, possibly UMB, waitlisted at UF. I get state tuition in FL.

I’m looking super far ahead here but I do want to take this goal into account when deciding between schools. I feel way out of my league in how to go about factoring in my aspiration to be a GI.

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It helps indirectly in that your residency matters for matching into GI. That said, you can match into a great residency from any US MD school if you work hard and do well with good board scores. I agree that in general go to the cheapest school unless you are turning down Harvard and have lots of $$$.
 
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Like others have said, go to any US MD school, score high on Step 1, get good recommendations, and you will get into a good enough internal medicine residency to match into GI fellowship as long as you have good research during residency.
 
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Agree with the above if your goal is private practice. If you're interested in academic GI and going to a top academic program, then unfortunately the importance of prestige and pedigree cannot be overstated.
 
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I’m a rising M1 needing to choose between med schools and I want to keep my end goal of becoming a GI in mind. The prevailing wisdom I see on the premed forum is that a state school which saves money is almost always better than a more prestigious but more expensive school (except if the school is in the T20).

I’m thinking along the lines that prestige of med school (to a degree) makes it easier to match a competitive IM which makes it easier to be accepted into a GI Fellowship.

Apart from “prestige”, I also wonder if I should take into account research. I know research is important during IM for GI but I wonder if getting started in med school could help.

Lastly, I was looking into whether the med schools I’m deciding between have well-known GI fellowships associated with them. Totally not sure if that should factor in or not.

I’m waiting on 6 schools still but currently I’m deciding between USF, FAU, Loyola Stritch, Wayne State, GW, possibly UMB, waitlisted at UF. I get state tuition in FL.

I’m looking super far ahead here but I do want to take this goal into account when deciding between schools. I feel way out of my league in how to go about factoring in my aspiration to be a GI.
Get into the best medical school you can get in then get into the best Medicine Residency you can get into to and then do as much research as you can do
 
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Get into the best medical school you can get in then get into the best Medicine Residency you can get into to and then do as much research as you can do
I’m curious, in terms of “best med school”, what things are most important factors for you?
 
I’m curious, in terms of “best med school”, what things are most important factors for you?
Its all inbreeding. You will eventually apply to a fellowship whose pd or chair is an alum from X and you will have an in with the common pedigree. Gi is not small world. Its tiny.
 
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I personally don't believe that your med school matters much for fellowship other than as a talking point if you happen to be interviewing with a faculty member who went there or worked there or knows someone there. Beyond that, I don't think your med school name helps. I think the residency name does help a lot, especially at academic programs where many of the faculty know each other and have certain relationships. For instance if you look at some of the big name programs in very desirable locations (i.e. MGH, BID, Columbia, Northwestern, UCSF, etc), nearly all of their fellows are either internal, or come from a select number of well known residency programs. That's not to say you can't get into a great program from a decent residency, I went to a mid tier residency and people have matched to Uchicago, Penn, Duke, and UMich for GI, but it's rarer. Just go to med school and do well, then go to a good residency and do well, and then you'll have no issue getting into the fellowship you want.
 
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I really appreciate all these great responses, thanks everyone.
 
A family member of mine is going through a similar situation so I'll break it down for you the same way I did for him. There are a few important factors to consider other than cost and prestige (but we'll talk about them anyway).

1) Cost is obviously a factor, like most people have said above, go to the cheapest one possible. Not just because it limits your future debt, but it also put less stress on you in terms of deciding residency (if you're strapped to 400K in med school loans, going to a residency in a city with high cost of living is going to be a tough sell), early financial independence (you can't start investing early as a young attending if you still got a rolling snowball of student loans on your back), and lifestyle/relationships (your vacations/weddings/honeymoons are gonna be more meager than you want)

2) Prestige, how important is it actually? Every extra level of training you do, the less the previous level matters. This sounds kind of harsh but its true. Once you start med school, no one cares where you went for college. Likewise, once you start residency, no one cares where you went to med school. On the other hand, where you do residency is actually important. But graduating from a big name med school won't really help you get into a big name residency program (see below).

3) Competitiveness: I've seen middle tier university program students into in top 3 residency programs and I've seen top 10 med school students not match at all. It's not so much about where you came from as it is how competitive YOU are. If you absolutely destroy the USMLE exams, top of your class, and get AOA/Gold Humanism, no program is gonna turn you down. The prestige may come into play if you and one other applicant is competing for the last spot on a program's list and you guys both have the exact same credentials, but he went to Harvard med and you went to State U.

4) This ties in to the last point and it is really important. Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond of a small fish in a big pond? There are going to be smart people in every class at every school. There was a guy in my class who could memorize every word of every 800+ slides for every test (not exaggerating, we tested him, he could tell you word for word what was on line 5 of slide 8 of pptx #7) and I went to a middle tier state school. If you go to a big name school, the level of competition [I imagine] will be even higher, making your chances of graduating top of the class/getting AOA even tougher. Of course, some people thrive on competition, so how important this actually is is for you to decide.

5) Research: this might be one of the most important things if you want to do GI. There are research opportunities everywhere, not just at big name places. If you can get some done as a medical student, it will definitely give you a leg up because residency is BUSY. Easiest way to find out how much research opportunities there are is to look up the GI faculty at that hospital, then look up their most recent publications in pubmed/google scholar. If they are continually cranking stuff out/securing grants, that's a good sign. If their last publication is back in 1987, they're probably not as active on the research front. Chances are most of their research is too advanced for you, but the more faculty doing active research, the more likely you are to find a project suitable for a med student.

6) Ignore how awesome the GI fellowship is at the med school you are applying for. You are at least 6 years away from applying and I would say most people don't do med school, residency, GI fellowship at the same institution. Plus the awesomeness of a fellowship program can change so dramatically in just a few years. Imagine a faculty of 20, in 6 years maybe 2 retires, the program director changes, 3 get new jobs elsewhere, 3 decide to up their research time, another decides they only want to do clinical duties without any teaching, 2 more goes part-time. Thats a whole different program now! Not saying that happens everywhere or all the time but it would be silly to plan your life based on something that can change so easily.

7) Support: med school is hard. It is a completely different beast from college and the adjustments in those first 6 months are rough. I always tell my students if you have the opportunity to do med school closer to home or locations with good support outside of the classroom, do it. I am not sure if you are from the state of one of those schools and everyone is different, so that is another thing you have to decide for yourself.

Hope that helps!
 
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Everyone is overthinking this. Go to cheapest MD option and thank yourself later. Look at the leaders of GI or other specialities and see where they went to school and you’ll see a mix. Nobody cares. If you are thinking private practice then this matters even less. Just as long as it’s a US MD and you do well you’ll be equally well without a bunch of debt.
 
Prestige does matter, but it clearly matters the most at the current level you're on (undergrad if you're applying for med school, med school if you're applying for residency, and residency if you're apply for fellowship). I went to a very non-prestigious (but awesomely cheap) undergrad, but worked my butt off and accumulated a nice resume. That got me into a top 25 med school (got very few interviews in general though), which luckily is a very cheap option compared to most top programs (I turned down a spot at a more local med school with less prestige that offered me a nice scholarship to stay, so it would have been very very cheap). I then worked my butt off in that, and worked my way up to a top 10 residency (got many interviews this time, and pretty great programs, but not the best). I busted my butt in residency and was able to get top interviews and matched in a great GI program but in an expensive city.

Looking back I am extremely glad I went with the cheaper options because so many of my peers are so massively deep in debt its not even believable. I am also glad I went for the more prestigious medical school, because it definitely allowed me to work my way up the ladder, but I was lucky that for medical schools it was actually quite cheap. If I didn't have that option, I would have gone for the less prestigious option and think I still would have done really well to be honest.

Above all the rest, work your absolute butt off to the bone, and you will be undeniable. You'll get that fellowship you've always wanted - no question. Period.
 
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Grateful for this info @Dr8sian and @soulpowerpaul. Helps me very much.

Hey one quick follow-up question if you have time. Would having GI publications and GI LOR from my time in med school help me be competitive for top IM residencies? How is that looked upon, going into an IM residency already thinking about the sub-specialty? Also, any tips for being competitive for IM in general? I presume it’s basically Step1&2, LOR, AOA ?
 
It's insanely easier to match at top IM residencies if you come from a top med school. Honestly, the data speak for itself. Look at Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford med school match lists; even a school like U Chicago's match list. They are phenomenal matches, and obviously not all these students are AOA/255/10 pub beasts. Outside the top 10, even very reputable schools ranked in the 20s (avg MCATs similar to Harvard), the match lists (while very solid) are not even close to the same level as those top 10 med schools. And now compare those schools ranked in the 20s to random state schools, and you see a similar drop off. Why is that?

Most students by definition will fall within 1 SD of the mean of their given med school class. If you go to a top school, you will on average, come away with a much better match for residency. Of course, you can go to an unranked brand new DO school and somehow match at a top tier IM residency. It is possible. Anything is possible- KG. But what is likely?

Now, you can say what is the point of matching into a top tier IM residency, isn't the training all the same? It probably is the same, honestly I haven't started intern year yet. But I know that if you want cards/GI, you try to grab any advantage you can. Reputation of residency program can give you that edge to match, especially if you are otherwise average.
 
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It's insanely easier to match at top IM residencies if you come from a top med school. Honestly, the data speak for itself. Look at Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford med school match lists; even a school like U Chicago's match list. They are phenomenal matches, and obviously not all these students are AOA/255/10 pub beasts. Outside the top 10, even very reputable schools ranked in the 20s like UVA (avg MCATs similar to Harvard), the match lists (while very solid) are not even close to the same level as those top 10 med schools. And now compare those schools ranked in the 20s to random state schools, and you see a similar drop off. Why is that?

Most students by definition will fall within 1 SD of the mean of their given med school class. If you go to a top school, you will on average, come away with a much better match for residency. Of course, you can go to an unranked brand new DO school and somehow match at a top tier IM residency. It is possible. Anything is possible- KG. But what is likely?

Now, you can say what is the point of matching into a top tier IM residency, isn't the training all the same? It probably is the same, honestly I haven't started intern year yet. But I know that if you want cards/GI, you try to grab any advantage you can. Reputation of residency program can give you that edge to match, especially if you are otherwise average.

The thing is I’m not even deciding between a top 10 or 20. Right now it’s bascially GW or Loyola vs state schools in FL. I like the match list of GW and would like to match in the northeast but the price tag is enormous for GW and DC CoL. Still, a tough call for me. I wanted to just go for it originally but now I worry I may be underestimating the burden of a large med school debt.
 
My feeling would be the state schools in Florida don’t give you a disadvantage compared to GW/Loyola. I think one reason some state schools have less “big names” on their match lists is because the goals of the students might be slightly different on average (they want to stay local for residency instead of chasing the “best” program), not because those students couldn’t match at bigger names. Now if it was comparing FIU to Hopkins, the difference in match lists cannot simply be explained by difference in student preferences, even though that would be part of the explanation.
 
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Like others have said, go to any US MD school, score high on Step 1, get good recommendations, and you will get into a good enough internal medicine residency to match into GI fellowship as long as you have good research during residency.

“Score high in step 1”
“Get good recommendations”
“Get into a good enough IM residency”
“Good research DURING said good residency”

These are all not easy to do from a low tier school even some mid tiers.

Go to the best med school you can get into to lessen the uphill battle into a more desirable GI fellowship of your choice (location and all).
 
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