The Age of Anti-Ambition

[GravelRider]

The Age of Anti-Ambition (Published 2022)

When 25 million people leave their jobs, it’s about more than just burnout.

www.nytimes.com

I thought this was an interesting article that discusses the current state of worker mindset in the country. I think it’s something we are seeing in anesthesia right now. However, if the title of the article is meant to be a theme or a descriptor of what is happening in the workforce then the author completely missed the mark. It’s not lack of ambition that is driving “The Great Resignation,” but rather a realization that you can derive meaning from life beyond just your career. For some reason a set of circumstances in our economy has empowered workers for the first time in decades and they are choosing to pursue happiness. Much to the chagrin of many employers, that pursuit of happiness does not involve working longer hours or later into life.

I thought the bit about the junior bankers at Goldman Sachs essentially collectively bargaining for better pay and working conditions was interesting. This reaffirms my position that if you want something changed about a job then you need to do it as a group.

How long these conditions that are favorable to workers will last, is anyone’s guess. I do know, though, that I think about cutting back on work quite often. I like my job fine enough, but I like spending time with my friends and family outside of work even more.

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[GassYous]

But now, for those warehouse workers, Amazon has introduced a program called AmaZen: “Employees can visit AmaZen stations and watch short videos featuring easy-to-follow well-being activities, including guided meditations [and] positive affirmations.”

Sounds like the wellness crap they did in residency. Pay some dope who probably doesn't even have a bachelor's degree a ton of money to run some "wellness sessions" where you're supposed to sit around and talk about feelings. Except you would be more well chillin at home without being forced into these mandatory time wasting sessions.

 

[NITRAS]

The Age of Anti-Ambition (Published 2022)

When 25 million people leave their jobs, it’s about more than just burnout.

www.nytimes.com

I thought this was an interesting article that discusses the current state of worker mindset in the country. I think it’s something we are seeing in anesthesia right now. However, if the title of the article is meant to be a theme or a descriptor of what is happening in the workforce then the author completely missed the mark. It’s not lack of ambition that is driving “The Great Resignation,” but rather a realization that you can derive meaning from life beyond just your career. For some reason a set of circumstances in our economy has empowered workers for the first time in decades and they are choosing to pursue happiness. Much to the chagrin of many employers, that pursuit of happiness does not involve working longer hours or later into life.

I thought the bit about the junior bankers at Goldman Sachs essentially collectively bargaining for better pay and working conditions was interesting. This reaffirms my position that if you want something changed about a job then you need to do it as a group.

How long these conditions that are favorable to workers will last, is anyone’s guess. I do know, though, that I think about cutting back on work quite often. I like my job fine enough, but I like spending time with my friends and family outside of work even more.

It’s behind a paywall.

Society (particularly certain parts of it) have vilified the pursuit of wealth, the upper classes, and have told people they can’t get ahead. . . . you really shouldn’t be surprised when people stop working so hard.

 

[narcotics999]

Maybe people realize that no matter how hard they try, the chance to success is minimal. The decline of social mobility.

 

[NITRAS]

Maybe people realize that no matter how hard they try, the chance to success is minimal. The decline of social mobility.

Barriers to entry to plenty of high paying careers are the lowest they have ever been. Free information on the internet is abundant.
80% of millionaires are first generations rich. The ability to invest has never been easier.

 

[GravelRider]

It’s behind a paywall.

Society (particularly certain parts of it) have vilified the pursuit of wealth, the upper classes, and have told people they can’t get ahead. . . . you really shouldn’t be surprised when people stop working so hard.

Maybe people can’t get ahead. Ambition often gets you nowhere. Should the anesthesiologist who’s only job prospects in a certain region are being an AMC employee be ambitious?

I didn’t realize there was a paywall, but in the article, it’s not just lower income people showing this “lack of ambition,” but elite lawyers and bankers as well.

 

[GravelRider]

Barriers to entry to plenty of high paying careers are the lowest they have ever been. Free information on the internet is abundant.
80% of millionaires are first generations rich. The ability to invest has never been easier.

The article doesn’t talk about wealth. It talks about work and people deciding to work less.

 

[Twiggidy]

But now, for those warehouse workers, Amazon has introduced a program called AmaZen: “Employees can visit AmaZen stations and watch short videos featuring easy-to-follow well-being activities, including guided meditations [and] positive affirmations.”

Sounds like the wellness crap they did in residency. Pay some dope who probably doesn't even have a bachelor's degree a ton of money to run some "wellness sessions" where you're supposed to sit around and talk about feelings. Except you would be more well chillin at home without being forced into these mandatory time wasting sessions.

All of this. I roll my eyes when they suggest to go see physician wellness. What would make me well is a few extra weeks of vacation and less call. If its so bad I need to see a physician wellness sherpa then I'm just leaving the job

 

[Twiggidy]

Maybe people can’t get ahead. Ambition often gets you nowhere. Should the anesthesiologist who’s only job prospects in a certain region are being an AMC employee be ambitious?

I didn’t realize there was a paywall, but in the article, it’s not just lower income people showing this “lack of ambition,” but elite lawyers and bankers as well.

Burnout.

People are tired of grinding for something they may or may not love, even if it's paying a lot of money. The big shout out I give to millennials is for "the hustle". They can find ways to run a cooking TikTok channel into an income stream and get to a point where they don't have to sit in an office everyday. I can't be mad at that.

I personally don't think there's lack of ambition in as much I think people are realizing the daily grind isn't the way to success. We're certainly learning that in our field. We should ALL be figuring out solid income streams outside of pushing propofol.

 

[CHARLESTONMMM]

I started to realize this year that money means less. Since the Fed can print more and more and devalue what I earn while I have no chance to increase my revenue. I see hedge funds, large corporations, and business owners who can siphon more and more money from society while I only see mine being diluted. Seems to be pointless to work more hours when it won’t matter.

 

[PainDrain]

I started to realize this year that money means less. Since the Fed can print more and more and devalue what I earn while I have no chance to increase my revenue. I see hedge funds, large corporations, and business owners who can siphon more and more money from society while I only see mine being diluted. Seems to be pointless to work more hours when it won’t matter.

Not shocking that people are fleeing jobs they find worthless. The mirage of upward mobility has largely been exposed as a pipe dream for most and we are seeing this play out in our society. A select few have realized they can siphon off wealth from the masses via student loans, car loans, mortgages and all manner of debt and leave them to rot. Meanwhile the masses are becoming increasingly disgruntled and its playing out in our political sphere as we head toward an authoritarian government. We are heading toward some dark times.

 

[mtbtx]

Don't worry we can just print our way out of this mess right?

 

[DirtDocMD]

I’m late 40’s. Have some nice things, but saved a LOT and invested “ok”. House is paid off, as well. Life is short. There’s only so many “toys” I need.

I had been wanting to go part-time for the last 3 years. Finally got fed up, waiting, and told the group last spring “I’ve got 20 weeks a year to give, starting next year. You can have it, or I can move on.”

It wasn’t so much an “ultimatum” to THEM, as it was to MYSELF. I wasn’t gonna wait another 5-10 years, until “staffing was at optimum levels”, or until I’d already missed my kids growing up. I simply wasn’t going to keep getting “worked” more than I wanted. It was time to set some limits.

They’re not gonna put a bronze plaque for you out front. The extra money wasn’t going to drastically change my lifestyle. You eventually have to set some limits. I guess the group could’ve just as easily said “Goodbye!”, but I was prepared for that.

I’m not saying a 22 year-old, who’s never really accomplished anything or worked hard, should be “coasting” so early, but there are plenty of folks out there in their 40’s/50’s, who have “done their time”, and owe it to themselves (and their families) to “re-evaluate” what is important. Hint: It’s NOT “more money” or being a “team player” at work.

 

[DirtDocMD]

Executives Are Quitting to Spend Time With Family … Really

 

[chessknt]

On the physician side we are all being pushed to employment as the generation of practice owners sell their companies to private equity and run for retirement burning down the entire field of medicine on the way out. I absolutely have lost all ambition, there is literally no point in doing anything beyond the bare minimum because I will never make more as an employee. Any value I add is absorbed by the private equity overlords and they can go **** themselves. This actively discourages me from doing anything extra because it might bring them more profit by being able to get better contract terms. No more committee work or presentations ever again. No more teaching on rounds. Just show up and leave as soon as I am allowed.

 

[vector2]

But now, for those warehouse workers, Amazon has introduced a program called AmaZen: “Employees can visit AmaZen stations and watch short videos featuring easy-to-follow well-being activities, including guided meditations [and] positive affirmations.”

Sounds like the wellness crap they did in residency. Pay some dope who probably doesn't even have a bachelor's degree a ton of money to run some "wellness sessions" where you're supposed to sit around and talk about feelings. Except you would be more well chillin at home without being forced into these mandatory time wasting sessions.

Amazon and every other employer out there will literally do everything possible to improve employee satisfaction....other than actually pay their employees substantially more money, offer better benefits, and give them more time off.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Amazon and every other employer out there will literally do everything possible to improve employee satisfaction....other than actually pay their employees substantially more money, offer better benefits, and give them more time off.

And they'll spend more money doing it too. Lol

 

[Urzuz]

And they'll spend more money doing it too. Lol

No they won’t. They’re only incentivized by profits. They’ve crunched the numbers and know that hiring one wellness shaman for the entire company costs substantially less than paying everyone more and giving them more time off. You can bet your ass they would pay more and give more time off if it somehow improved their bottom line. But because the physical and psychological health of their employees doesn’t directly translate into a higher bottom line, they will continue to pay lip service to their wellness by doing BS like hiring wellness coaches / gurus / shamans.

 

[anbuitachi]

i mean have you seen the USA population in the last decade? super lazy. just talking to non physicians in my hospital is a pain. it seems like the work motto is always do as little as possible. even if they do it wrong theres no accountability most of the time. like our benefit open enrollment moved to a new portal, and FSA selection was broken. when i email them, the solution was "do it next year". imagine if i were on OB and place a high spinal and kill the patient and then tell the husband... find a new wife.

no accountability at all. happens over and over again

 

[anbuitachi]

Burnout.

People are tired of grinding for something they may or may not love, even if it's paying a lot of money. The big shout out I give to millennials is for "the hustle". They can find ways to run a cooking TikTok channel into an income stream and get to a point where they don't have to sit in an office everyday. I can't be mad at that.

I personally don't think there's lack of ambition in as much I think people are realizing the daily grind isn't the way to success. We're certainly learning that in our field. We should ALL be figuring out solid income streams outside of pushing propofol.

but MOST people are or were not willing to work for it. they expect minimal work with HUGE returns. meanwhile their only marketable skill is flipping burgers. they spent their school/college days partying and drinking and not learning. then they expect to come out to the real world being successful and living in luxury. in the last decade, since the iphone came out, too many people making minimum wage expect to be able to afford the latest greatest iphones every year, and paying for unlimited cell service. i still remember being shocked like 10 years ago hearing a young ED clerk in 20s talking about how his 1 line cost like 110$ for unlimited service, and getting the latest iphone. i dont even know what for 10 years ago, to stream at work??

go to any public social media group talking about recent events and you immediately get a palpable feeling of being surrounded by stupidity, problem is they are the ones with the loudest voices

 

[anbuitachi]

"This thing we filled at least eight to 10 hours of the day with, five days a week, for years and decades, missed family dinners for ... was it just busy work? Perhaps that’s what it was all along."

Not really... its what was putting food on the table and shelter over their heads. People forget the purpose of WORK. If i get 1B dollars right now, I'd quit work and pursue my hobbies

 

[anbuitachi]

The Age of Anti-Ambition (Published 2022)

When 25 million people leave their jobs, it’s about more than just burnout.

www.nytimes.com

I thought this was an interesting article that discusses the current state of worker mindset in the country. I think it’s something we are seeing in anesthesia right now. However, if the title of the article is meant to be a theme or a descriptor of what is happening in the workforce then the author completely missed the mark. It’s not lack of ambition that is driving “The Great Resignation,” but rather a realization that you can derive meaning from life beyond just your career. For some reason a set of circumstances in our economy has empowered workers for the first time in decades and they are choosing to pursue happiness. Much to the chagrin of many employers, that pursuit of happiness does not involve working longer hours or later into life.

I thought the bit about the junior bankers at Goldman Sachs essentially collectively bargaining for better pay and working conditions was interesting. This reaffirms my position that if you want something changed about a job then you need to do it as a group.

How long these conditions that are favorable to workers will last, is anyone’s guess. I do know, though, that I think about cutting back on work quite often. I like my job fine enough, but I like spending time with my friends and family outside of work even more.

How is this like anesthesia? who is forming unions and collectively bargaining? I do agree more people have retired recently due to overwork, health issues, hit of reality due to covid, decreasing reimbursements/longer hours, but thats about it. The state of anesthesiology is still super different than other high paying non medical fields IMO. Lack of ability to work remotely (which the article talked a lot about), lack of raises (bankers, tech, corporate law, etc got huge raises, upward of 30%), lack of better benefits... (just found out job doesnt even have paternity leave... what a joke)

it's difficult to compare us to other fields. if we quit anesthesia but want to work in medicine, and not start ALL over again with a mountain of debt, then we go to another anesthesia practice. but they are all roughly similar unless maybe if you are moving cross country. A junior banker at goldman sachs is like 23 years old making 300k compensation, who decide life is not all about the money and work, and can easily join other banks, firms, tech companies, anywhere that needs finance/investment people which is literally like every company, hospital included, and can easily choose to work a much better lifestyle for lower pay, and work up the ladder for much higher pay later in life.
a downgrade for a GS 23 yr old banker is like going to another division, or JPmorgan and make a 'puny' 130k starting salary as an analyst (not bad for 23 yr old), working much better hours than ibankers, who with career progression will make 300k++ in their 30s, and much more later on. really not that bad

thats the 'secret' of being smart, and not going into medicine. work in a good company, and with time and promotion, you make as much if not more than anesthesiologists per year.

 

[kidthor]

How is this like anesthesia? who is forming unions and collectively bargaining? I do agree more people have retired recently due to overwork, health issues, hit of reality due to covid, decreasing reimbursements/longer hours, but thats about it. The state of anesthesiology is still super different than other high paying non medical fields IMO. Lack of ability to work remotely (which the article talked a lot about), lack of raises (bankers, tech, corporate law, etc got huge raises, upward of 30%), lack of better benefits... (just found out job doesnt even have paternity leave... what a joke)

it's difficult to compare us to other fields. if we quit anesthesia but want to work in medicine, and not start ALL over again with a mountain of debt, then we go to another anesthesia practice. but they are all roughly similar unless maybe if you are moving cross country. A junior banker at goldman sachs is like 23 years old making 300k compensation, who decide life is not all about the money and work, and can easily join other banks, firms, tech companies, anywhere that needs finance/investment people which is literally like every company, hospital included, and can easily choose to work a much better lifestyle for lower pay, and work up the ladder for much higher pay later in life.
a downgrade for a GS 23 yr old banker is like going to another division, or JPmorgan and make a 'puny' 130k starting salary as an analyst (not bad for 23 yr old), working much better hours than ibankers, who with career progression will make 300k++ in their 30s, and much more later on. really not that bad

thats the 'secret' of being smart, and not going into medicine. work in a good company, and with time and promotion, you make as much if not more than anesthesiologists per year.

It does seem that some anesthesiologists and other physicians are jumping more into drug/device industry jobs and plenty have jumped into doing locums. Others eject into doing botox. So there is some opportunity for a pivot.

 

[anbuitachi]

It does seem that some anesthesiologists and other physicians are jumping more into drug/device industry jobs and plenty have jumped into doing locums. Others eject into doing botox. So there is some opportunity for a pivot.

True but they make the super minority. I know they are out there but in my years of practicing I don't know anyone who quit anes to do drug or Botox full time. One guy did Botox on the side but he said it's slow so he stopped

 

[Twiggidy]

True but they make the super minority. I know they are out there but in my years of practicing I don't know anyone who quit anes to do drug or Botox full time. One guy did Botox on the side but he said it's slow so he stopped

The point is that it doesn’t matter how high you graduate or how many chief resident spots you obtain, when you get into the work world “you’re just another body” It’s why I chuckle when our practice receives these 3 page CVs because kudos to all the work this person has done but when you’re hired you’re just going to be in this GI room. And as said above, you can show up and grind everyday but in the end it’s just money which we know doesn’t always equal happiness. I think I’m your other posts we’re talking about two different things but I think the overall message here is that if there’s no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow it’s very hard to maintain high motivation especially as jobs start to pay less and things that usually make people happy, like housing, gets more expensive.

 

[kidthor]

The point is that it doesn’t matter how high you graduate or how many chief resident spots you obtain, when you get into the work world “you’re just another body” It’s why I chuckle when our practice receives these 3 page CVs because kudos to all the work this person has done but when you’re hired you’re just going to be in this GI room. And as said above, you can show up and grind everyday but in the end it’s just money which we know doesn’t always equal happiness. I think I’m your other posts we’re talking about two different things but I think the overall message here is that if there’s no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow it’s very hard to maintain high motivation especially as jobs start to pay less and things that usually make people happy, like housing, gets more expensive.

It’s funny my parents are confused that I don’t ever “move up in the organization” or get promoted or get a raise, which probably reflects a generational expectation gap.

As my job wants more work for less money plus all of the dance-monkey-dance expectations (committees, papers, teaching) with no reward or support, it’s making me entirely demotivated. There really isn’t any way “up” it’s just status quo or down from here. Not a motivating trajectory to be on….

Several anesthesiologists I know have absolutely stellar academic CVs and they just got totally burned out and quit. Some are trying industry or medicine-adjacent gigs, but many are just not working at all. Kind of nuts to think people jumped through that many hoops and are now unemployed out of frustration.

To add to the irony I just got an email that my yearly re-credentialing song and dance will be delayed if I don’t immediately complete my required two hour recognizing and mitigating burnout module. I have to send them the completion certificate by 5pm today to prove it. I’m on call overnight and “off” for the morning, but I’ll instead use this personal time to complete my required burnout module.

 

[anbuitachi]

The point is that it doesn’t matter how high you graduate or how many chief resident spots you obtain, when you get into the work world “you’re just another body” It’s why I chuckle when our practice receives these 3 page CVs because kudos to all the work this person has done but when you’re hired you’re just going to be in this GI room. And as said above, you can show up and grind everyday but in the end it’s just money which we know doesn’t always equal happiness. I think I’m your other posts we’re talking about two different things but I think the overall message here is that if there’s no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow it’s very hard to maintain high motivation especially as jobs start to pay less and things that usually make people happy, like housing, gets more expensive.

that is true in medicine. its very different from the 99% other jobs out there. becoming an attending physician is like 'end of the road'. it's equivalent to receiving multiple promotions in other jobs where you start immediately after college. instead we pass 4 years of med, many exams, 4 years of residency, board exams, +/- fellowship. we dont become attendings until we pass all these. we are just another 'body' partially because we Made it this far

becoming an attending is equivalent to getting multiple promotions in other careers. it's like a VP/director in banks where most people stay for years. a level 5/6 programmer, or a corporate lawyer who never become partner. all these jobs in these high paying jobs generally take about 10 years to reach and earn <7 figures like us, and then end up spending years 'stuck' there. its at this point that one loses motivation because the difficulty of reaching the next level is higher than the perceived reward. the difference with anesthesia is that we dont get the almost guaranteed COLA adjustments, that big banks and companies give, plus the benefits. Also we work longer hours and tend to work more alone as opposed to teams. we also dont WFH

 

[GravelRider]

How is this like anesthesia? who is forming unions and collectively bargaining? I do agree more people have retired recently due to overwork, health issues, hit of reality due to covid, decreasing reimbursements/longer hours, but thats about it. The state of anesthesiology is still super different than other high paying non medical fields IMO. Lack of ability to work remotely (which the article talked a lot about), lack of raises (bankers, tech, corporate law, etc got huge raises, upward of 30%), lack of better benefits... (just found out job doesnt even have paternity leave... what a joke)

it's difficult to compare us to other fields. if we quit anesthesia but want to work in medicine, and not start ALL over again with a mountain of debt, then we go to another anesthesia practice. but they are all roughly similar unless maybe if you are moving cross country. A junior banker at goldman sachs is like 23 years old making 300k compensation, who decide life is not all about the money and work, and can easily join other banks, firms, tech companies, anywhere that needs finance/investment people which is literally like every company, hospital included, and can easily choose to work a much better lifestyle for lower pay, and work up the ladder for much higher pay later in life.
a downgrade for a GS 23 yr old banker is like going to another division, or JPmorgan and make a 'puny' 130k starting salary as an analyst (not bad for 23 yr old), working much better hours than ibankers, who with career progression will make 300k++ in their 30s, and much more later on. really not that bad

thats the 'secret' of being smart, and not going into medicine. work in a good company, and with time and promotion, you make as much if not more than anesthesiologists per year.

Maybe you should be collectively bargaining? I’m not the one picking up CRNA shifts for CRNA pay. I am seeing more and more people pursuing lifestyle jobs with no call or less call. I see people who are in their prime taking a little less salary to work less. Is it because they are lazy, as you suggest, or is it because there is more to life than helping line someone else’s pocket?

 

[anbuitachi]

It’s funny my parents are confused that I don’t ever “move up in the organization” or get promoted or get a raise, which probably reflects a generational expectation gap.

As my job wants more work for less money plus all of the dance-monkey-dance expectations (committees, papers, teaching) with no reward or support, it’s making me entirely demotivated. There really isn’t any way “up” it’s just status quo or down from here. Not a motivating trajectory to be on….

Several anesthesiologists I know have absolutely stellar academic CVs and they just got totally burned out and quit. Some are trying industry or medicine-adjacent gigs, but many are just not working at all. Kind of nuts to think people jumped through that many hoops and are now unemployed out of frustration.

To add to the irony I just got an email that my yearly re-credentialing song and dance will be delayed if I don’t immediately complete my required two hour recognizing and mitigating burnout module. I have to send them the completion certificate by 5pm today to prove it. I’m on call overnight and “off” for the morning, but I’ll instead use this personal time to complete my required burnout module.

agree 100%. we dont get promoted. and even with promotion to full professor, the benefit gained is far far less than the effort required to reach that stage. few people here are willing to work HOURS after clinical time in OR for 'free', doing research, publishing every year in hopes of one day reaching professorship. i think you get like a 10 or 20k raise with professor title after 20 years of hard work doing research and other stuff.

our job is mostly just grind grind grind if we want to retire at a reasonable age.

it's not a generational gap. it is a profession gap. my friends not in medicine dont know this either. they think i get raises every year like they do by just doing the same work each year. they have NO idea how we get paid. they think if we get a salary of 300k, it means we are rich, because they think we get big bonuses on top of it like they do, and if our starting is 300k, then by age 60 we must be making millions, which is often the opposite in many anesthesiology jobs. many younger attendings make more bc they work more and take more calls

 

[anbuitachi]

Maybe you should be collectively bargaining? I’m not the one picking up CRNA shifts for CRNA pay. I am seeing more and more people pursuing lifestyle jobs with no call or less call. I see people who are in their prime taking a little less salary to work less. Is it because they are lazy, as you suggest, or is it because there is more to life than helping line someone else’s pocket?

im not saying we are lazy. im saying most of america is lazy. its totally fine to cut back and work fewer hours and focus on life, im all for it. if 30million people who quit can afford to quit , then thats fine.

actually i am trying to collectively bargain. but its very difficult as you may expect since we have no leverage really. we arent allowed to strike, and if we quit we have to give 90 day notice, easily allowing them to fill the gap with locums. also many senior attendings who been here for decades do not want to participate in collective bargaining and whatever since they are so close to retirement. others may want to stay due to location or family and dont want to quit either

 

[GravelRider]

im not saying we are lazy. im saying most of america is lazy. its totally fine to cut back and work fewer hours and focus on life, im all for it. if 30million people who quit can afford to quit , then thats fine.

actually i am trying to collectively bargain. but its very difficult as you may expect since we have no leverage really. we arent allowed to strike, and if we quit we have to give 90 day notice, easily allowing them to fill the gap with locums. also many senior attendings who been here for decades do not want to participate in collective bargaining and whatever since they are so close to retirement. others may want to stay due to location or family and dont want to quit either

I’m not so sure it’s laziness. I think there has been decades where people have realized over and over again that hard work doesn’t always pay off. The article I posted talks about successful, typically driven people, cutting back or quitting…healthcare, lawyers, bankers, and tech people. Are they lazy or is the idea that you have to work 60 hours a week and put in overtime on weekends outdated?

There are some economic theories that say as society gets more productive because of advances in technology that we SHOULD be working less. Maybe we are entering that phase of economic development? Something tells me that an anesthesiologist from 30 years ago would be a lot less productive than one today. In other words, surgical volume has increased, certain surgeries have gotten faster, and we take care of sicker patients…we are more productive than our counterparts from 30 years ago. Why should we be working more if our productivity has also increased?

 

[Mman]

there are probably hundreds if not thousands of threads on SDN the last 5-10 years about FIRE (financial independence, retire early) and how to go about it as a physician.

Personally I plan to back off to half time or so in my 50s and quit any point after that I get bored, but that's assuming my savings can support withdrawals of $250K-$300K per year forever which is more than enough money to continue my current lifestyle.

It's not that I am desperate to stop working or minimize working, it's that I can find more entertaining ways to spend my life than worrying about whatever the next admin plan of the day is to make things so much better (aka justify their own useless salary).

 

[GravelRider]

there are probably hundreds if not thousands of threads on SDN the last 5-10 years about FIRE (financial independence, retire early) and how to go about it as a physician.

Personally I plan to back off to half time or so in my 50s and quit any point after that I get bored, but that's assuming my savings can support withdrawals of $250K-$300K per year forever which is more than enough money to continue my current lifestyle.

It's not that I am desperate to stop working or minimize working, it's that I can find more entertaining ways to spend my life than worrying about whatever the next admin plan of the day is to make things so much better (aka justify their own useless salary).

FIRE has been something that has been “on trend” for about 10 years now, but this is the first time that it has made a noticeable dent in the workforce. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the recent threats to things like backdoor Roths are not the democrats going after the wealthy, but rather corporate lobbyists looking to chip away at our ability to “FIRE,” in order to keep the workforce intact longer. Probably not, but it also wouldn’t surprise me either.

 

[Twiggidy]

FIRE has been something that has been “on trend” for about 10 years now, but this is the first time that it has made a noticeable dent in the workforce. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the recent threats to things like backdoor Roths are not the democrats going after the wealthy, but rather corporate lobbyists looking to chip away at our ability to “FIRE,” in order to keep the workforce intact longer. Probably not, but it also wouldn’t surprise me either.

I buy this

 

[pgg]

I'm not sure I buy the narrative that we're seeing more FIRE these days. Maybe just RE, and I'm not even sure about that. If you look at r/antiwork or similar communities there isn't a lot of FI there.

I haven't looked at it closely but my perception is that a couple years of extended unemployment benefits, COVID stimulus, and forced time off has led to a lot of temporary departures from the workforce because free stuff from the government has enabled it. Does anyone doubt that when the government stimulus really truly ends the non-FI REs are going to have to un-RE?

I think there are a lot of people taking breathers from the workforce and standing with fists raised and heads bowed over on Reddit, but the honest truth is probably that if they really quit forever they're going to be cold and hungry before long.

"This thing we filled at least eight to 10 hours of the day with, five days a week, for years and decades, missed family dinners for ... was it just busy work? Perhaps that’s what it was all along."

Not really... its what was putting food on the table and shelter over their heads. People forget the purpose of WORK. If i get 1B dollars right now, I'd quit work and pursue my hobbies

I think you're missing the point. A lot of labor (outside of high-skill trades and service industries) actually is "busy work" in the sense that it has neither meaning nor utility. And some people are deciding that instead of doing a LOT of busy work for subsistence level A, they can do less busy work for subsistence level B. And maybe B isn't so much worse than A.

They haven't forgotten the purpose of WORK. They have a new, sharper understanding of it.

 

[vector2]

im not saying we are lazy. im saying most of america is lazy.

What's lazy is this blanket, unsupported overgeneralization

 

[pgg]

I buy this

I don't.

It's just a way to focus a tax hike on the middle class without being seen raising income taxes on the middle class. The middle class is where the money is. It's easier to sell a tax hike on the middle class if most people think it's a tax on wealthy investors.

 

[Mman]

FIRE has been something that has been “on trend” for about 10 years now, but this is the first time that it has made a noticeable dent in the workforce. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the recent threats to things like backdoor Roths are not the democrats going after the wealthy, but rather corporate lobbyists looking to chip away at our ability to “FIRE,” in order to keep the workforce intact longer. Probably not, but it also wouldn’t surprise me either.

stuff like backdoor Roth is peanuts IMHO and not really helping people retire 20 years early

 

[GravelRider]

stuff like backdoor Roth is peanuts IMHO and not really helping people retire 20 years early

Yes, peanuts for someone looking to spend $300k per year in retirement, but not peanuts to the average white collar management type looking retire at age 55 instead of 65.

 

[Zekchar]

On the physician side we are all being pushed to employment as the generation of practice owners sell their companies to private equity and run for retirement burning down the entire field of medicine on the way out. I absolutely have lost all ambition, there is literally no point in doing anything beyond the bare minimum because I will never make more as an employee. Any value I add is absorbed by the private equity overlords and they can go **** themselves. This actively discourages me from doing anything extra because it might bring them more profit by being able to get better contract terms. No more committee work or presentations ever again. No more teaching on rounds. Just show up and leave as soon as I am allowed.

This is the way! Well said.

 

[GravelRider]

I'm not sure I buy the narrative that we're seeing more FIRE these days. Maybe just RE, and I'm not even sure about that. If you look at r/antiwork or similar communities there isn't a lot of FI there.

I haven't looked at it closely but my perception is that a couple years of extended unemployment benefits, COVID stimulus, and forced time off has led to a lot of temporary departures from the workforce because free stuff from the government has enabled it. Does anyone doubt that when the government stimulus really truly ends the non-FI REs are going to have to un-RE?

I think there are a lot of people taking breathers from the workforce and standing with fists raised and heads bowed over on Reddit, but the honest truth is probably that if they really quit forever they're going to be cold and hungry before long.




I think you're missing the point. A lot of labor (outside of high-skill trades and service industries) actually is "busy work" in the sense that it has neither meaning nor utility. And some people are deciding that instead of doing a LOT of busy work for subsistence level A, they can do less busy work for subsistence level B. And maybe B isn't so much worse than A.

They haven't forgotten the purpose of WORK. They have a new, sharper understanding of it.

I haven’t spent much time reading r/antiwork, but the impression I get when you dig through the anarchist or libertarian fluff is that there are a lot of people looking for the encouragement to improve their situation. It’s not unlike the “does my job suck?” posts we get here. People may feel alone when they are in a job they hate and they just need the confirmation and push to do something to change it. I don’t get the sense that the members there are sitting at home playing video games and collecting government checks. I do get the sense that they are hardworking people looking to better their lives in some small and meaningful way.

 

[Ezekiel2517]

Time is our most precious asset. If more ppl are figuring this out, good for them

 

[anbuitachi]

What's lazy is this blanket, unsupported overgeneralization

what is lazy, is claiming the generalization as unsupported​

The Laziest Countries​

Overall, there were only four counties in the world where more than 50 percent of the population did not get enough exercise: Kuwait, Iraq, American Samoa, and Saudi Arabia. So these four countries are effectively the “laziest” in the world. Ultimately the nation with the least amount of physical activity was Kuwait, with 67 percent of its adults not exercising enough.


Other nations towards the bottom of this list were the United States, which ranked 143rd out of 168 countries. A whopping 40 percent of the U.S.’s population doesn’t get enough exercise — meaning approximately 130 million Americans can’t manage to get 2.5 hours of moderate activity per week.

Details Of The Study​

The survey of 168 nations ranked the countries by most to least active by measuring the exercise habits of a given percentage of each country’s population and then comparing that percentage with those samples of the other countries involved in the study. The WHO defines enough exercise as at least 75 minutes of vigorous activity or 150 minutes of moderately intense activity per week — or any combination of the two.

The WHO analyzed statistics and trends across different economic backgrounds, and between genders.

 

[anbuitachi]

I'm not sure I buy the narrative that we're seeing more FIRE these days. Maybe just RE, and I'm not even sure about that. If you look at r/antiwork or similar communities there isn't a lot of FI there.

I haven't looked at it closely but my perception is that a couple years of extended unemployment benefits, COVID stimulus, and forced time off has led to a lot of temporary departures from the workforce because free stuff from the government has enabled it. Does anyone doubt that when the government stimulus really truly ends the non-FI REs are going to have to un-RE?

I think there are a lot of people taking breathers from the workforce and standing with fists raised and heads bowed over on Reddit, but the honest truth is probably that if they really quit forever they're going to be cold and hungry before long.




I think you're missing the point. A lot of labor (outside of high-skill trades and service industries) actually is "busy work" in the sense that it has neither meaning nor utility. And some people are deciding that instead of doing a LOT of busy work for subsistence level A, they can do less busy work for subsistence level B. And maybe B isn't so much worse than A.

They haven't forgotten the purpose of WORK. They have a new, sharper understanding of it.

i mean sure but that is subjective so i cant really deny that. same as how many anesthesiologists probably view their work as 'busy work'. like i said the purpose of 'work' is to provide for my survival and entertainment outside of work. if you give me 20M $ and i quit my job, how much does that make my job 'busy work'? in that scenario, clearly i value the $$ way more than the value the job provides

 

[GravelRider]

what is lazy, is claiming the generalization as unsupported​

The Laziest Countries​

Overall, there were only four counties in the world where more than 50 percent of the population did not get enough exercise: Kuwait, Iraq, American Samoa, and Saudi Arabia. So these four countries are effectively the “laziest” in the world. Ultimately the nation with the least amount of physical activity was Kuwait, with 67 percent of its adults not exercising enough.


Other nations towards the bottom of this list were the United States, which ranked 143rd out of 168 countries. A whopping 40 percent of the U.S.’s population doesn’t get enough exercise — meaning approximately 130 million Americans can’t manage to get 2.5 hours of moderate activity per week.

Details Of The Study​

The survey of 168 nations ranked the countries by most to least active by measuring the exercise habits of a given percentage of each country’s population and then comparing that percentage with those samples of the other countries involved in the study. The WHO defines enough exercise as at least 75 minutes of vigorous activity or 150 minutes of moderately intense activity per week — or any combination of the two.

The WHO analyzed statistics and trends across different economic backgrounds, and between genders.

Maybe people aren’t exercising because they are spending so much time working?

 

[anbuitachi]

i feel like FIRE has become more popular because there are a LOT of high paying jobs for people straight out of college, and they can FIRE, especially with the rise of tech. in the past, i BELIEVE its way harder to find jobs like that. Actually out of all my classmates from college from ages ago, only a few are doing some type of FIRE and all are in tech. that 6 figure salary plus stock bonus really grew over the past decade. not uncommon for them to have networth of few million by 30s

 

[anbuitachi]

Maybe people aren’t exercising because they are spending so much time working?

List of countries by average annual labor hours - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

no. US is like average. ranked 39 out of 66.

39

United States

1,757.23 hours

if you work 48 weeks a year, that comes out to 36 hours per week. if you tell me working 36 hours a week is too much, causing US to be one of the most inactive countries in the world... then i dont know what to tell you

 

[repititionition]

What's lazy is this blanket, unsupported overgeneralization

The visible parts of America are disproportionately lazy.

The less visible parts of America are anything but.

 

[ans2021]

Maybe it's because I've been looking at getting a rental, but all the FIRE people I see, or at least significantly cutting back on work, if not leaving their job altogether are the people getting into real estate. Buying duplexes, and straight up entire apartment complexes. "Passive" income.

 

[vector2]

what is lazy, is claiming the generalization as unsupported​

The Laziest Countries​

Overall, there were only four counties in the world where more than 50 percent of the population did not get enough exercise: Kuwait, Iraq, American Samoa, and Saudi Arabia. So these four countries are effectively the “laziest” in the world. Ultimately the nation with the least amount of physical activity was Kuwait, with 67 percent of its adults not exercising enough.


Other nations towards the bottom of this list were the United States, which ranked 143rd out of 168 countries. A whopping 40 percent of the U.S.’s population doesn’t get enough exercise — meaning approximately 130 million Americans can’t manage to get 2.5 hours of moderate activity per week.

Details Of The Study​

The survey of 168 nations ranked the countries by most to least active by measuring the exercise habits of a given percentage of each country’s population and then comparing that percentage with those samples of the other countries involved in the study. The WHO defines enough exercise as at least 75 minutes of vigorous activity or 150 minutes of moderately intense activity per week — or any combination of the two.

The WHO analyzed statistics and trends across different economic backgrounds, and between genders.

Uhhh nah man, your lazy assertion is still unsupported.

This entire discussion has been solely about work ethic as it pertains to the labor force, and indeed in your post you even referenced "..cut back and work fewer hours and focus on life" which tells us you were on the same page that this discussion is about labor.

But then you try to throw out some random unrelated study about literal exercise to support your laziness claim? Nope. Try again.