terminated weeks after promotion, no review, no probation, "due process" behind closed doors?!?!

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She did refuse to "just do them faster", felt like the implication was to make the emr system / billing department happy rather than care about the patient.
Those of us in training are powerless until we make attending. We don't get to refuse orders. The rules of the game are keep your head down and do what you are told.

Fair or not, those are the rules and the squeaky wheel gets the hammer...not oil

did send some of the above concerns to PD asking to help me understand / tell me what I was missing....only to get "some of your questions are for your wife to answer, others for herself to contemplate" as a response.

You should never, ever, ever have done this. I'm saying this a a person who cares.....get a grip on yourself and think about what you are doing

>> Comparisons to other residents / attempts to quantify via EMR
Please help me understand how else to establish what a "reasonable" workload would be.

>> asking for "options to reduce workload", especially a week off is simply not an option
My wife never say she needed a week, she said she could not manage the workload she was being assigned. I literally saw here maybe once or twice a week when she had a day off after being on call all night. otherwise she would get up at 5am, go to work, and come home around 10pm at which point me and the kids were usually asleep. I was getting upset at her working too much, felt like I was taking care of the kids by myself, thought she was just making excuses when she said that they would fire her if she didn't. She worked beyond 80 hours almost every week in the moths leading up to being fired...when she raised concerns about duty hour violations she was observing in other residents and herself...she was told that it was only because they spent too much time doing their documentation, and that they shouldn't count that time towards their duty hours in the first place.

All because she choose not to sacrifice her integrity by being threatened into shutting up about her concerns? One of her evals, which otherwise are almost entirely positive, reads: "seems to think residents are overworked, starting to negatively impacting work ethic of other residents." She was the only one who dared speak up. Many of the other resident are international; being an immigrant myself, I understand that they are terrified to speak up given their visas depend on their employment.


>> It's just what happens and just because your wife decided not to play the game doesn't mean she should stay employed
Really? Really!?!? The more I talk to people in the medical field, the more I realize that this is actually the prevalent mindset! To be blatantly honest, I find this mentality absolutely repulsive! The thought that medicine, one of the most highly regarded professions in society, literally chooses to build its very foundation on, and encourages the idea that everyone has to go through years of utter submission and sacrifice is disgusting! Do you really believe that this is the one and only way to make sure someone is proficient enough to practice medicine?

Am I that disconnected from reality, that the idea of treating some of the most highly educated people our society has to offer with respect and dignity sounds not only morally right, but like a good idea in terms of encouraging a culture of success and better outcomes?!

Yes, you are disconnected from reality. The reality is that "reasonable" workload is whatever your PD tells you to do that week. You don't win by making waves as a resident. Fighting the powers that be is something they do in movies, it's not wise in real life.


Talk to lawyers.....stop talking to anyone else.

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Sounds like the OP may be gone, but in case he is still reading, a few thoughts.

This has been mentioned above, but very specifically: Your wife states that she fell behind in her notes because she felt she couldn't complete them to a reasonable standard in the time allotted. However, not completing them in a timely fashion is infinitely worse than a "poor" note. If any of her patients had a poor outcome and a lawsuit resulted, it would be indefensible. The plaintiff lawyers would point to the lack of documentation and could claim that the patient did/said anything and there would be no way to defend it. If the documentation is late enough, they would argue that it had been changed in retrospect to cover tracks. It's a total nightmare. It's a huge problem.

All that said, I totally understand where you are coming from. You want to help the situation. Some of your actions may be counterproductive, but you are trying to help. And now you want to know what a "reasonable" workload is so that you can measure whether your wife (and perhaps everyone at this program) is stretched beyond reasonable.

In some ways, it's easy to measure. The ACGME has rules about how many patients can be cared for by a resident on the inpatient service -- usually 10 by themselves, 14 with one intern, and 20 with two interns. There are also rules about how many admissions are allowable in 24 and 48 hours. And of course the duty hour rules about how many hours one can work in a row.

In the outpatient clinic, the load is usually capped by the schedule. Residents may see a patient every 30 minutes, or sometimes every 20, and (perhaps) 15 minute slots for very senior residents / simple patients / patients they know well. Usually a clinic session is about 3 hours long, so that's 6-12 patients per session.

But it's not so easy. Because nothing stops a program from having the resident be on the inpatient service managing their 20 patients, and then have clinic in the afternoon with another 9 patients. And 10 patients with straightforward cellulitis (a simple infection of the skin) is a totally different thing from 10 patients with multiorgan failure.

Comparing her workload to other residents in the program is not unreasonable. There is no reason she should be seeing more patients than another resident at the same level of training on the same rotation -- although occasionally when services use a call system it's possible for one team to get many more patients than another simply by luck of the draw. It does tend to average out over time.

The system is out of balance, overall. You state that the system can be unfair, that residents can be fired and there is no real way to contest it. This is true. There is another thread here that discusses this, and discusses ways to consider changing the system to add some additional supports / protections for residents. The only check on any program is the due process of the GME office, and in small institutions that may be the exact same people. The system needs to balance resident protections with the ability to weed out residents who cannot succeed, and I don't have a good answer as to how to improve the system. Some institutions have formed residency unions, and perhaps a union would bring some additional balance to this process -- but perhaps not.

So, what are your realistic next steps:

1. If her PD agrees, a meeting between her, the PD, and her advisor might be helpful. It would need to be clear that this meeting is not a "fair hearing", nor an attempt to reverse the decision. It's a way for her to get more information about why she was fired. Her advisor could help her understand the issues.

2. Both of you need to understand that a large number of incomplete/late notes is an egregious problem. I have and would again fire residents for this -- after warnings and some help, of course. I would not decrease a resident's workload because they can't get their work done in time - it is their job to find ways (with our help and assistance) in being efficient enough to get the work done.

3. Proving that she has more work assigned than other residents isn't easy. You'd need to compare her to other PGY-3 residents on the same rotations. The overall schedule is usually widely published. You would need to prove that she had many more clinics than other people for no reason. Honestly, I find this unlikely -- it's hard to schedule resident clinics. It's easy to schedule more call or weekend work for a single resident (not that I do that).

4. If you decide to go the legal route, you've got the wrong end play in mind. Although you could try to sue for some large amount of money (like everything she would have made in her career), your best target is getting her reinstated. That's something that is "cheap" for the program, and easy to do. It might not take 6 years. It might not go to court at all. If she does get reinstated, it will be very hard for them to fire her again -- any attempt at doing so could be easily spun as retribution. It wouldn't be fun for her, but it could be done. You get her reinstated by proving that the program didn't follow its self defined due process -- whether she was a "bad resident" or not is beside the point. That's easy to prove (if they didn't follow the rules).

5. Alternatively, she looks for a new program. Is this a PITA for you both? Yep. But that's life. Perhaps she goes somewhere to finish her residency while you stay there with the kids. Inconvenient? Sure. But it doesn't sound like she was really particiapting much anyway, and if she does get another chance she needs to focus 150% of her time on her residency, because it is certain she won't get a 3rd chance. But her needing to move to a new program is not the end of the world.
 
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Some places have group clinics and the residents pick up charts each time they finish seeing a patient. If she was choosing to write her notes "later", one could imagine that she both saw more patients and fell behind. I would also propose that until she's written a note, what she's done is worse than not seeing a patient. No one can supervise an encounter that never happened.

BTW, the pd's response to a undoubtedly aggressive email from the spouse of a fired resident sounds pretty measured.
 
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The struggling resident going with the ACGME violation strategy is also never going to win anyone over. It will make any future program think twice about bringing her into the mix.

Also, did your wife know you were going to contact her boss? Mine would have cut my balls off for doing something like that (and she worked for satan himself for a couple years).
 
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To OP,

I am a 4th year medical student, so please take this with a grain of salt. I am writing this because I felt like I could add some different perspectives to understanding this issue. I am a medical student, so I definitely have some sense of what it means to go through residency. On the other hand, I must admit that I am also somewhat naive (just like you) and may not know as much about the residency as the others. Parts of me definitely understand where you are coming from, and at the same time I feel like all the advises from above are very sound and many of them make sense to me.

I know you are frustrated, sad, confused, and feeling the urge to address the issue upfront making things 'right.' To be honest with you, I feel like I would probably do the same thing, if I was in your situation. Don't get me wrong. I feel your pain, and I understand you 100%. HOWEVER, I sat down and thought about this for hours, and I am sorry, but I feel like the best way to approach this is to stop trying to make sense out of this chaos.

Guess what... It's life. Sometimes, it is not a matter of right and wrong, it is about making a choice that will cause least amount of damage to your loved ones. Keeping things to yourself. Sitting on information and feelings and just living with your secrets. I know it is not fair, but what can you do? To me, being fair doesn't mean a thing if the truth/fairness hurts my loved ones.

Please be STRONG for your spouse. Be STRONG and try your best to leave the emotion out of this. Be SELFISH... or I should say be SELFISH for your spouse. Do whatever it takes for your spouse to get another chance at her dream. Again, do not attempt to make sense out of this. In life, you do not always need to do the 'right things' to make the situation better. In fact, for your case, doing the right thing may hurt your spouse, achieving her lifelong dream.

I feel like it is time for you to lose this battle to win the war. Support your spouse and find a way to get the supportive letters from any of the attendings or the PD from her program. These letters are so crucial. Unfortunately, it is her only way to salvage a second chance at different residency program. You and your spouse need to focus all of your energy to get these letters. PERIOD.

Trust me. The faster you move on, the less damage you will do. It will work out and make sense as time goes on. No need to rush into conclusion. It will just be another life story for your spouse few years from now.

My friend. I am sorry I can't give you a magical solution. But, as a person who went through some personal hardships myself, I have no doubt in my mind that 'Even This Too Shall Pass.'
 
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I don't think anyone on this forum has any idea of what constitutes legal advice because a real lawyer would not offer legal advice on this forum. I think it is important to obtain assistance by obtaining a proper employment attorney, if in NYC, do not go thru the legal hotline for the NY Bar or help hotline or whatever they are running now, which can prove to be problematic. I think that the situation needs to be assessed according to her situation and what was at issue that got her fired and whether or not, that was really an issue to get fired for. She needs to move fast to obtain proper legal representation on this matter.

She can report her complaints to the ACGME if there was a problem with the residency that was not following their guidelines, policy, and whatever else they have going now for accreditation :vomit: If there are other problems you are welcome to approach any resident union that is available. If not writing to the program director and DIO and requesting her records so that she can apply to new jobs seem like a good idea.
 
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I don't think anyone on this forum has any idea of what constitutes legal advice because a real lawyer would not offer legal advice on this forum. I think it is important to obtain assistance by obtaining a proper employment attorney, if in NYC, do not go thru the legal hotline for the NY Bar or help hotline or whatever they are running now, which can prove to be problematic. I think that the situation needs to be assessed according to her situation and what was at issue that got her fired and whether or not, that was really an issue to get fired for. She needs to move fast to obtain proper legal representation on this matter.

She can report her complaints to the ACGME if there was a problem with the residency that was not following their guidelines, policy, and whatever else they have going now for accreditation :vomit: If there are other problems you are welcome to approach any resident union that is available. If not writing to the program director and DIO and requesting her records so that she can apply to new jobs seem like a good idea.

I think at least some of us have a pretty good idea what constitutes legal advice and what a "real lawyer" might say. ;)
I think the OP and his spouse sitting down with a lawyer for ADVICE is probably worthwhile. However as was discussed on the other similar recent thread, whether you actually mobilize the legal process or file things with the ACGME kind of depends on your goal and how many bridges you burned and how confident you are that you will win on a big ticket item, rather than a "technicality". The legal system is really good at deciding damages. It's not good at repairing broken relationships. It's very possible to mobilize the legal system, win, get awarded some amount of damages, but never be able to finish a residency. If you are okay with that endpoint, then fine, mobilize the legal process. But, as we recently saw on a different thread, in worlds where personal relationships and networking are kind of everything, It's sometimes better to keep the lawyers out of it, leverage any attendings or higher ups who think highly of you to get a lukewarm letter from your PD that allows you a second chance and find a soft landing elsewhere. I guess this can be seen as compromising what you believe in but sometimes victories can be pyrrhic, and you have to decide if it's better to have a Judge say you were right, or actually have some semblance of a medical career. Could a lawyer make some noise and get you your day in court? Absolutely. Will it be easy to continue your training after you do this? Not so much.
 
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Some places have group clinics and the residents pick up charts each time they finish seeing a patient. If she was choosing to write her notes "later", one could imagine that she both saw more patients and fell behind...

The thing that bothers me about this story is that the kind of person who seeks to see more patients than everyone else is rarely the kind of person that finds themselves on the chopping block. In this system, more often the guy who shows up late, takes a long time per patient and sees three in the time everyone else sees five, is the one the PD ends up talking to.

If the PD really told OP "ask your wife" when asked why he took action, it tell me there's maybe another, more significant component to this story that OP may not be privy to.
 
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The thing that bothers me about this story is that the kind of person who seeks to see more patients than everyone else is rarely the kind of person that finds themselves on the chopping block. In this system, more often the guy who shows up late, takes a long time per patient and sees three in the time everyone else sees five, is the one the PD ends up talking to.

If the PD really told OP "ask your wife" when asked why he took action, it tell me there's maybe another, more significant component to this story that OP may not be privy to.

They may have tried remediation and OP's spouse didn't mention it to avoid dealing with this kind of reaction.

Through school (and other scenarios) I've worked with people who got their notes done on time, or not. It always came down to beginning cases with a solid foundation, being organized, and self confidence. It's almost as if some people feel the computer will explode or the chart will catch fire if they end up being wrong and ultimately corrected. Generally: I believe feedback is how we learn, if open to it.

One of my ex's pretty much got a low job offer, after a fellowship, due to laziness in charting. She thought the pay was too low felt charting was something she could do anytime. I tried explaining the link between billing, collection, and the practice paying her salary but the words were wasted, LOL! She also couldn't understand why they were upset about her being late every day, despite living one block away. :)
 
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I just can't even conceive of moving on to the next patient in a clinic setting without doing charting. That's half the job. I'm not going to remember anything about that pt that isn't written down the next day, unless it's an interesting case. They all bleed together. Months? If you are doing something weeks or months later nothing you add is really going to be accurate -- it's just you making stuff up.

From what you've said she really deserved to be fired. If you don't chart it, then it didn't happen. She might as well not have shown up to work for all that time if she wasn't finishing her charts every day.

The change that needs to occur isn't with residency, it is with her. She has to finish her notes on time. That's 100% part of the job. If you can't do that, you don't get to be a doctor.
 
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I just can't even conceive of moving on to the next patient in a clinic setting without doing charting. That's half the job. I'm not going to remember anything about that pt that isn't written down the next day, unless it's an interesting case. They all bleed together

It would be impossible in our surgery clinics to do all charting in between clinic visits. In some of our busy clinics its not uncommon for residents to go home at the end of the day with about 20 notes to write
 
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I just can't even conceive of moving on to the next patient in a clinic setting without doing charting. That's half the job. I'm not going to remember anything about that pt that isn't written down the next day, unless it's an interesting case. They all bleed together. Months? If you are doing something weeks or months later nothing you add is really going to be accurate -- it's just you making stuff up.

From what you've said she really deserved to be fired. If you don't chart it, then it didn't happen. She might as well not have shown up to work for all that time if she wasn't finishing her charts every day.

The change that needs to occur isn't with residency, it is with her. She has to finish her notes on time. That's 100% part of the job. If you can't do that, you don't get to be a doctor.

Yeah not doing your notes in between patients isn't the problem. People leave all their notes to the end of the day all the time. What people don't do is go days without writing the notes. If she was just jotting down a few things about each patient and then typing/dictating the note at the end of the day (a la surgery clinic) that would likely have not been that big of a deal.
 
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One of my ex's pretty much got a low job offer, after a fellowship, due to laziness in charting. She thought the pay was too low felt charting was something she could do anytime. I tried explaining the link between billing, collection, and the practice paying her salary but the words were wasted, LOL! She also couldn't understand why they were upset about her being late every day, despite living one block away. :)

Is your ex one of my partners? ;)

The problem with students and residents who don't do their charting is that they become attendings who don't do their charting. This is a financial, medical and legal liability which is very difficult to correct at this level.
 
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We're not talking about surgery clinic. FM is kind of a different story. If you are putting off all your notes until the end of the day in FM and can do it power to you. Personally I wouldn't be able to do that. But regardless the person in the OP was putting it off for weeks which I think everyone agrees is ridiculous.
 
But regardless the person in the OP was putting it off for weeks which I think everyone agrees is ridiculous.

Yes, no one is debating that. I'm just saying in a lot of clinics (including those of my friends in medicine), if you tried to sit down and complete your notes in between every patient, the patients would be lining the halls you'd be so far behind schedule.
 
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Is your ex one of my partners? ;)

The problem with students and residents who don't do their charting is that they become attendings who don't do their charting. This is a financial, medical and legal liability which is very difficult to correct at this level.

She was in PM&R, LOL!

After many unsuccessful attempts at remediation, Jake Inc. freed her to pursue other relationship opportunities. :)
 
Just my two cents, here. I don't consider my job done until I've finished the notes on my patients. Even after I've prerounded, decided who needs dialysis or CRRT , and made other management recommendations to the primary team, rounded with the attending, my job is not done until its documented in EPIC. In clinic, it really doesn't take that long to get the notes done, IMHO. I'll even do them at the same time while I'm talking to the patient. I'll also start them before going into the exam room. Of course, that's the beauty of having EPIC or another electronic medical record system. You have all these templates to work with so you can have half your note completed even before seeing the patient.
 
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She did two years of residency. She can get her unrestricted license in most states. She can do urgent care work or disability physicals. She needs to get to work.
 
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We're not talking about surgery clinic. FM is kind of a different story. If you are putting off all your notes until the end of the day in FM and can do it power to you. Personally I wouldn't be able to do that. But regardless the person in the OP was putting it off for weeks which I think everyone agrees is ridiculous.

I write little baby notes if we have a really busy clinic that I can go back to that night and know what's going on:

"OSA f/u s/p PSG AHI 50 deviated septum/turb hyper boarded SMR & septoplasty flonase"

Takes me 2 seconds to write that, and I can fill that out into a good note that evening while also seeing 15-20 patients in a half day.
 
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Off tangent: is there now a movement to hire medical scribes? I've heard the Mayo radiology residents have scribes who take down their reads. Would be helpful to have a rounding scribe, would also help us focus on the medicine....because we all no that with the EMR the 9 page note is going no where.
 
I think at least some of us have a pretty good idea what constitutes legal advice and what a "real lawyer" might say. ;)
I think the OP and his spouse sitting down with a lawyer for ADVICE is probably worthwhile. However as was discussed on the other similar recent thread, whether you actually mobilize the legal process or file things with the ACGME kind of depends on your goal and how many bridges you burned and how confident you are that you will win on a big ticket item, rather than a "technicality". The legal system is really good at deciding damages. It's not good at repairing broken relationships. It's very possible to mobilize the legal system, win, get awarded some amount of damages, but never be able to finish a residency. If you are okay with that endpoint, then fine, mobilize the legal process. But, as we recently saw on a different thread, in worlds where personal relationships and networking are kind of everything, It's sometimes better to keep the lawyers out of it, leverage any attendings or higher ups who think highly of you to get a lukewarm letter from your PD that allows you a second chance and find a soft landing elsewhere. I guess this can be seen as compromising what you believe in but sometimes victories can be pyrrhic, and you have to decide if it's better to have a Judge say you were right, or actually have some semblance of a medical career. Could a lawyer make some noise and get you your day in court? Absolutely. Will it be easy to continue your training after you do this? Not so much.

I think that the issues aren't what it appears to be, having an employment lawyer review the employment termination rationale and other surrounding issues can be helpful to the OP. It's one thing to be fired from a job but it's entirely another matter to not be able to get work in future because of being fired by a medical center. Another common theme is the threatening posts directed at posters in similar employment situations that warn against taking legal action or even getting appropriate legal counsel, which is disconcerting. If someone was fired from their job, one can assume that the former employer has nothing but ill will towards their well being and success. It's illogical to hope for some medical center that fired you to not do more harmful things when they are deeply invested in why they fired you to begin with.
 
Again, I do not know if the OP is still following but your wife's story is pretty similar to mine. I reached out on this forum exactly like you did and the reality is the residency programs can literally do whatever they want if they want a particular thing to happen "In this case, fire your wire." The reason they can do this is because the ONLY thing the ACGME requires (and vaguely stated) " some form of evaluation and due process in place." Now, you can interpret that however you want; which is likely the way they want it. The ACGME does not have time to litigate all of these issues and all the program has to do is document something, place it in the chart and she can be asked to leave. It honestly is that simple. The ACGME is seriously pretty useless; they kinda just show up and penalize a program from time to time but they are simply an organization that exists just to say they exists. Best case, tell the PD that your "super duper sorry and that he is the best, you are the worst and pretty pretty please don't mess up my career. I am doing XY and Z to get better. I just want a fresh start. I just want a second chance... blah blah blah" and then get a neutral letter and never call that sorry scumbag again."
 
I think that the issues aren't what it appears to be, having an employment lawyer review the employment termination rationale and other surrounding issues can be helpful to the OP. It's one thing to be fired from a job but it's entirely another matter to not be able to get work in future because of being fired by a medical center. Another common theme is the threatening posts directed at posters in similar employment situations that warn against taking legal action or even getting appropriate legal counsel, which is disconcerting. If someone was fired from their job, one can assume that the former employer has nothing but ill will towards their well being and success. It's illogical to hope for some medical center that fired you to not do more harmful things when they are deeply invested in why they fired you to begin with.

As I said, talking to a lawyer privately is fine. Mobilizing a lawyer might not be the best tactic because you don't want litigation and bad will, you want a letter like johndoe44 got which doesn't completely close the door on future residency employment. So basically what you don't want to do is create an adverrsary situation. That's very hard not to do if the lawyer does more than look at your contract and give you private advice behind the scenes. I do think focusing on "threatening posts directed at poster in similar employment situations" is not helpful. Every case is totally different. The guy being fired for not doing reports might have less of a leg to stand on than the guy whose infraction is more of a global nebulous "not working out" kind of situation. But the latter guy might have an easier time getting a letter.

Getting fired for cause is the end of the road. Resigning might not be. So you kind of have to accurately gauge the situation. Will the PD give you a letter if you "resign"? Is it a "didnt work out, no hard feelings" kind of thing or does he think you ought not be a doctor anywhere. Does he have a legit reason to fire you? all these things factor into whether mobilizing a Lawyer is wise or foolish. Without knowing all if the facts, giving advice to mobilize a lawyer, do investigation, contact the ACGME, etc is very knee jerk, and jyst not the right advice to be giving on a Board like SDN. in quite a few of these cases all you do is escalate things. The goal is to keep an avenue open to continue a residency, not win in court. It's like quicksand -- often if you thrash around and create a stir you just sink faster.
 
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Unfortunately, "legit reason" short of medical malpractice standards, that actually harmed or cause a direct injury to a patient, and seriously, bad stuff like hitting, threatening a staff member during patient care, attacking a patient etc... I fail to see how an organization can fire a resident, especially because more junior 1st and 2nd year residents need a lot of mentoring, if they are falling behind, the residency program has a fiduciary duty to the resident and the federal government (thank you medicare) for teaching the resident. I think objective evaluations like RISE and successful completion of USMLE can be used to measure competency. I am not in primary care or regular medicine, but notes are usually completed in a short period of time based on the interview with the patient and management options, so it should be finalized in real time, if there is a delay, it's more than likely a confidence issue of someone just starting out. There are a lot of threats directed at physicians in residency programs from reporting labor issues, unfair employment standards, and general hazing that can be demoralizing and harmful to the resident physician who is also the care giver, so if the OP wants to review the ACGME guidelines and note points of contention and failures of the residency program, she should do so. I also understand the concerns of creating a stir but usually, that's the only thing that organizations fear, an articulate physician who can identify problems regarding problem employment practices. Mostly, the residencies are just a major cash cow without any oversight from federal government, acgme, or the state departments of health, for the hospitals. The poor treatment of physicians are part of that equation at many places, which really should change. My work place was filled with serious workplace disarray and seriously, self-proclaimed incompetency by my supervisors about their own ability. If an organization is going to throw rocks at a physician for bad reasons such as silencing, retaliation, and not because of things they never fire other people for, I think that they need to examine how they themselves are operating, because the OP may not be deserving of being fired.
 
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It has been mentioned about duty hours that some residents count doing clinic notes well after clinic hours. My impression was duty hours were direct patient contact. If you choose to wait till after clnic to do notes, that is on you. If you go home to do them, to me that is not duty hours to be reported. I finished the notes I did not get finished in clinic while sitting in my recliner at home. My residency wanted our notes done in 24hours. Maybe one of the PD can weight in on this.
 
Unfortunately, "legit reason" short of medical malpractice standards, that actually harmed or cause a direct injury to a patient, and seriously, bad stuff like hitting, threatening a staff member during patient care, attacking a patient etc... I fail to see how an organization can fire a resident, especially because more junior 1st and 2nd year residents need a lot of mentoring, if they are falling behind, the residency program has a fiduciary duty to the resident and the federal government (thank you medicare) for teaching the resident. I think objective evaluations like RISE and successful completion of USMLE can be used to measure competency. I am not in primary care or regular medicine, but notes are usually completed in a short period of time based on the interview with the patient and management options, so it should be finalized in real time, if there is a delay, it's more than likely a confidence issue of someone just starting out. There are a lot of threats directed at physicians in residency programs from reporting labor issues, unfair employment standards, and general hazing that can be demoralizing and harmful to the resident physician who is also the care giver, so if the OP wants to review the ACGME guidelines and note points of contention and failures of the residency program, she should do so. I also understand the concerns of creating a stir but usually, that's the only thing that organizations fear, an articulate physician who can identify problems regarding problem employment practices. Mostly, the residencies are just a major cash cow without any oversight from federal government, acgme, or the state departments of health, for the hospitals. The poor treatment of physicians are part of that equation at many places, which really should change. My work place was filled with serious workplace disarray and seriously, self-proclaimed incompetency by my supervisors about their own ability. If an organization is going to throw rocks at a physician for bad reasons such as silencing, retaliation, and not because of things they never fire other people for, I think that they need to examine how they themselves are operating, because the OP may not be deserving of being fired.
Dude...is your return key broken?
 
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It has been mentioned about duty hours that some residents count doing clinic notes well after clinic hours. My impression was duty hours were direct patient contact. If you choose to wait till after clnic to do notes, that is on you. If you go home to do them, to me that is not duty hours to be reported. I finished the notes I did not get finished in clinic while sitting in my recliner at home. My residency wanted our notes done in 24hours. Maybe one of the PD can weight in on this.
no….duty hours include ALL clinical and academic activities

What is included in the definition of duty hours under the requirement “duty hours must be limited to 80 hours per week.”?

Duty hours are defined as all clinical and academic activities related to the residency program. This includes inpatient and outpatient clinical care, in-house call, short call, night float and day float, transfer of patient care, and administrative activities related to patient care such as completing medical records, ordering and reviewing lab tests, and signing verbal orders. For call from home, only the hours spent in the hospital after being called in to provide care count toward the 80-hour weekly limit.

Hours spent on activities that are required by the accreditation standards, such as membership on a hospital committee, or that are accepted practice in residency programs, such as residents’ participation in interviewing residency candidates, must be included in the count of duty hours. It is not acceptable to expect residents to participate in these activities on their own hours; nor should residents be prohibited from taking part in them.

Duty hours do not include reading, studying, and academic preparation time, such as time spent away from the patient care unit preparing for presentations or journal club.

and

Do tasks that can be completed at home (i.e., completion of medical records and similar tasks; submitting orders and reviewing lab tests; signing verbal orders; and time spent on research) count toward the 80-hour limit?

Any tasks related to performance of duties, even if performed at home, count toward the 80-hour limit.
source
https://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/dh-faqs2011.pdf

so yes, technically working on clinic notes, even at home, should be reported as part of duty hours…however, i know no one who does that.
 
We're not talking about surgery clinic. FM is kind of a different story. If you are putting off all your notes until the end of the day in FM and can do it power to you. Personally I wouldn't be able to do that. But regardless the person in the OP was putting it off for weeks which I think everyone agrees is ridiculous.

With the disclaimer that I am not in FM (although I do IM/Peds so I suspect it is very similar) I also do not usually have the luxury to complete each encounter documentation before moving onto the next patient. It just isn't feasible, practical, or particularly kind, to keep patients waiting while I dot and cross the metaphorical is and ts of good documentation. Having said that I always have the beginning of an encounter in the system with a good accounting of the history and pertinent positive and negatives of the exam. I take time at the end of the patient session to fill in the blanks without problem and relatively quickly because the bulk of the documentation has already been completed. It is rare that I do not have outpatient documentation done before I leave for the evening. The rare occasions when I do not would be when I have high acuity patients on the inpatient side of my world and end up being pulled back to the hospital to do procedures, attend deliveries, etc and then spend significant time at the bedside of those unstable patients. When I have particularly bad day that extends into the night and beyond I just complete that day's outpatient work the next day. I don't think I've ever closed an encounter out more than 36 hours beyond the time of service and the significant majority of my encounters are closed well under 12 hours after service. I will also add that inpatient documentation is always done before leaving the hospital as I feel this is essential for both collaborative and medico-legal reasons.
 
RESIDENT was drastically fired from her family medicine residency at PROGRAM this July 2014. She immediately appealed to the PROGRAM’s board of directors, which after two months of mostly silence, simply denied her appeal without offering any other communication. Her questions, requests for information, objections, and concerns about violations of ACGME requirements were flat out ignored.


The rest of this letter, describes events and circumstances surrounding RESIDENT’s termination. There is ample evidence that her termination was unjustified and in stark violation of multiple PROGRAM and ACGME policies. Worse than the very real and existential threat to RESIDENT’s livelihood, is the way RESIDENT has been treated, the way she was being pressured to resign before being terminated, and the extent to which her concerns, objections, and questions with regard to her termination were ignored even when she appealed to the PROGRAM’s board of directors.


Leading up to her termination, RESIDENT --feeling desperately overworked and behind on her medical documentation-- requested any options that would lower her workload; even offered to extend her residency over an additional year. In response, she was told to take a week to catch her breath and complete outstanding documentation. It was not until halfway through this week that she was informed (in writing by PD) that failure to complete ANY outstanding responsibilities would result in immediate termination for academic reasons.


The email dialogs between RESIDENT and her Program Director(PD) over the past year, make it more than evident that PD was growing increasingly frustrated with RESIDENT voicing her concerns about duty hours violations and patient safety issues arising from hasty documentation practices being forced on residents.


Several emails specifically, further suggest, that RESIDENT has been assigned higher workload (e.g. being assigned higher significantly patient load) directly in response to raising concerns, and has faced disciplinary action (eg. having certain batching privileges revoked) without being given any justifiable reason whatsoever (despite requesting to know the reason).


I believe the following items to be facts, but will immediately inform anyone in receipt of this email if presented with any evidence to suggest otherwise:

  • The ACGME requires that when reviewing evaluation and reasons for nonrenewal of appointments, the resident must be allowed a fair hearing and due process.

  • The ACGME requires the sponsoring institution to give a resident at least a four-month written notice when his or her performance is unfavorable for promotion or the program is considering termination.

  • RESIDENT has never denied that she was behind and unable to catch up on documentation, but PROGRAMS’s EMR software also shows that --during the past year-- RESIDENT, as an R2 was responsible for more documents and patients than any of the other residents in the entire program, including senior 3rd year residents.

  • During her entire time at PROGRAM, RESIDENT was never placed on review or probation. She was promoted from R2 to R3 less than month before being terminated without any notice of unsatisfactory performance.

  • Although the week to work on outstanding documentation was originally presented to her as the result of her advisor speaking to PD, (RESIDENT had appealed to her advisor about options to reduce her workload in an email and subsequent meeting), RESIDENTS’s advisor did not even know that she had been terminated until RESIDENT emailed her a week after the fact!

  • RESIDENT was not informed about where or when the board meeting to address her appeal was held. She was not allowed to attend the meeting. She also was not informed who was present / making this decision.

  • RESIDENT has talked to at least one other resident who resigned from PROGRAM in the past for personal reasons and learned that this resident was also pressured to resign.

I personally, find it incredibly hard to imagine genuinely malevolent intentions by PD or other PROGRAM administrators, but at this point am at a complete loss as to what other conclusion to be arriving at. Indeed, PD tried strongly to pressure RESIDENT into resigning, offering letters of recommendation and help finding another residency. If she would not resign voluntarily, she would be fired for academic reasons, was certainly not to expect any letters of recommendation, and should expect never to be able to practice family medicine again! I simply cannot fathom any set circumstances under which this dichotomy can be considered, or appears even remotely ethical or just.


What would you do? The ACGME doesn’t handle individual disputes, legal action would take years, meanwhile finding another residency is proving very challenging. Even if RESIDENT finds a new program, either her or her spouse ends up a single parent with 2 toddlers unless spouse was to throw career (and currently only means of support) out the window.


[edited: I removed one of the items in the list in favor of anonymity.]
 
This proves that you just are not in tune with the way the medical profession works. You're not supposed to, so that's ok. Everyone is so quick to judge the medical profession, but I wish wish WISH everyone could walk in our shoes for a day and see all the pressures we deal with. I'm not saying we have the worst most stressful jobs. I may bitch about certain things, but I'm so glad I am where I am.

There are duty hours. I don't want to condone working over the limits, but what are we supposed to do? There are patients to take care of, notes to write, PAs to call in, etc. The people who make these rules about duty hours, are, as far as I can tell, so far removed from any clinical duties, that they just don't get it. I'm not saying duty hour restrictions should not be in place, but what happens when these patients need to be taken care of? If a small community program has a certain number of patients to take care of, what happens when the load is too much for all the residents to handle? Do we just turn patients away and say we're too busy as it is? We can't...it's against our hippocratic oath. Do we just hire new residents? *Poof* here is more money from an already strained medicaid system to cover those residents' salaries.

You see what I'm getting at? Residents all play by the hour logging 'rules' and log that they went 8 hours over duty...ACGME cracks down...probation for the program...again, do we turn patients away?...how do we handle the situation? The residency program gets shut down...NOW WHAT DO WE DO WITH ALL THOSE PATIENTS? Do you think programs make residents work so hard to be mean? Of course not!

Sometimes people just log the hours at max allowable and know they will not log the extra hours after that to get their work done...it's to preserve the program, it's to preserve patient care, it's to preserve their careers. THAT is the game and people who play by THOSE rules get the job done and don't get into trouble.

I'm lucky in that I'm in a specialty/program that doesn't come close to going over hours, so I log my hours honestly and it's all good (though I have come close to reaching limit on occasions).

Calling how we do these things into question is opening up a whole Pandora's box that is best left alone....trust me.


Now, with that out of the way, I honestly think the best approach is for you wife to go back to the program, try to make amends, and get a letter of support for a residency program elsewhere. However, I am not you or her, so you as a team need to decide what to do ultimately. It will boil down to how much she wants to become a boarded physician.

http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/tabid/327/GraduateMedicalEducation/ResidentServices.aspx
 

Which state is the OP in, because that matters for appeal issues. Is there a resident physician manual and contract, review it. Then, I think filing a lawsuit asap is probably the only way to go. They might have fired her and denied her appeal process to give the hospital time to cover up staff and delete emails etc. that support her statements, so it's a problem for the vulture lawyers getting paid big money on these cases. She should download a copy of all the emails that are supportive of her. I really don't get how residents get fired from their jobs short of killing a patient or other very limited egregious stuff or toxicology issues/ mental health (even, this is apparently not grounds for firing) thank ADA for that, so not doing notes and then, catching up on notes for a week by the PD seemed pretty generous until the threat to fire her half-way thru this process appear to denote a sense of sabotaging in action against her. In any case, since the firing already occurred, appeal to fulfill whatever criteria for the state if she wants to file a lawsuit or apply for injunctive relief because that's sometimes a requirement.

I know that most residency programs are really bloated, easy cash for hospitals and they treat physicians poorly, and unrelated to performance or patient care capabilities. Make sure she is getting a lot of support and she should not blame herself for what happened. I also think that applying to residencies and obtaining letters of recommendation would be useful. If the OP's issues seem to revolve around young children and inability to support the demands of the work right now, that's understandable. There are residencies with some child care services etc. so that could be an option. It's really suspicious that they wanted her to resign rather than fire her as well, maybe filing a gender discrimination complaint with eeoc is an option, and complain about the unfair appeal process as well. I would like to see some board of directors try to defend an unfair appeals process by showing that everyone else gets unfair appeals process.
 
Sorry about going off on tangent, but 40 years ago that would be a typical note by a doc in private practice and would be considered perfectly acceptable for a non-resident.

Based on the documentation I get when patients are transferred, many community doctors seem to think this is still acceptable documentation. It often makes it really difficult to figure out what the **** has been going on.

Surgeons are the absolute worst when it comes to this.
 
Based on the documentation I get when patients are transferred, many community doctors seem to think this is still acceptable documentation. It often makes it really difficult to figure out what the **** has been going on.

Surgeons are the absolute worst when it comes to this.
you get documentation? usually all i got was very detailed nursing notes and every SINGLE vital sign done on the patient…

never understood how i could never transfer a pt without a stat D/C summary, but i could get transfers without one all the time...
 
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you get documentation? usually all i got was very detailed nursing notes and every SINGLE vital sign done on the patient…

never understood how i could never transfer a pt without a stat D/C summary, but i could get transfers without one all the time...

Just because you dictated it stat, doesn't mean they transcribed, printed and sent it with the crucial nursing notes! I've talked with receiving physicians who never got my DC summary that explained things nicely.
 
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you get documentation? usually all i got was very detailed nursing notes and every SINGLE vital sign done on the patient…

never understood how i could never transfer a pt without a stat D/C summary, but i could get transfers without one all the time...
Because that's....what we do.

 
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Because that's....what we do.


I was thinking of that when I read the last few posts. Because it's not important if the patient is being transferred for an ICH or a PE, but it's simply unacceptable to not know that the rails were up and the call light was within easy reach.
 
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I was thinking of that when I read the last few posts. Because it's not important if the patient is being transferred for an ICH or a PE, but it's simply unacceptable to not know that the rails were up and the call light was within easy reach.
The first time I saw that video, I think I was an intern or maybe even still a med student. But it has become ever funnier and oh so much more true over the years. Especially the part about the nurses notes. :p
 
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The first time I saw that video, I think I was an intern or maybe even still a med student. But it has become ever funnier and oh so much more true over the years. Especially the part about the nurses notes. :p

I was trying to be helpful on a clerkship so took the initiative to go through a patient's transferred chart - I couldn't understand why all the residents burst into laughter when I asked them "where can I find things other than the nursing notes?" until they showed me that video.
 
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ROFL--I've never seen that video before. The accuracy is astounding and continues to this day as I look through 19 pages of PCP office visit notes about a patients weight and her lackluster sex life with nary a mention of why she's referred to me.
 
I had a patient flown in today for emergency surgery from a rural hospital ~60 miles away. They came with zero paperwork, except for a CT scan on a CD, that didn't even have a label. They told the family, who actually asked, that we could look the records (labs, notes, etc.) up in the computer. WTF is that BS? They are not part of our system, they can't possibly believe they are part of our health system. They are some podunk community hospital. Lazy fockers.
 
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When I was in the .mil, one Friday morning the Admiral sent out an email, that was followed up by a reminder on the locker room door and a page via the emergency page system that no one was released from duty until 100% of outstanding paperwork was done. Anyone on leave had 24 hours from the time of return to complete their documentation. There was quite a line in the chart room that afternoon.
Real power gets things done. I suspect some were there for a looooong time.
You can't get behind on charting. That's the job. If that means staying an extra hour a day or coming in on Sat AM for a few hours, that's what you do.
 
I had a patient flown in today for emergency surgery from a rural hospital ~60 miles away. They came with zero paperwork, except for a CT scan on a CD, that didn't even have a label. They told the family, who actually asked, that we could look the records (labs, notes, etc.) up in the computer. WTF is that BS? They are not part of our system, they can't possibly believe they are part of our health system. They are some podunk community hospital. Lazy fockers.
I finally quit moonlighting on our BMT service after I got the following transfer: 3am, helicopter from 200 miles away, no paperwork but the flight crew's logs, a facesheet, a med list and a CD with a CXR on it. Transferring doc long gone and covering doc had no information, accepting doc on a flight to Hawaii at about 7pm with no signout to anyone, no labs, no H/P, not even any nursing notes came with the pt. Best info I got was from our transfer operator who said they were being transferred for r/o leukemia.

Turns out she had a PNA with a leukemoid reaction (hence the high WBC) and HIT (low platelets).
 
When I was in the .mil, one Friday morning the Admiral sent out an email, that was followed up by a reminder on the locker room door and a page via the emergency page system that no one was released from duty until 100% of outstanding paperwork was done. Anyone on leave had 24 hours from the time of return to complete their documentation. There was quite a line in the chart room that afternoon.
Real power gets things done. I suspect some were there for a looooong time.
You can't get behind on charting. That's the job. If that means staying an extra hour a day or coming in on Sat AM for a few hours, that's what you do.
We used to have "chart parties" on Trauma. It was easy to get behind what with all the obs patients. We were not allowed to leave service until everything was done (and that was in the old days when you had to go to a file room and hand write them).
 
ROFL--I've never seen that video before. The accuracy is astounding and continues to this day as I look through 19 pages of PCP office visit notes about a patients weight and her lackluster sex life with nary a mention of why she's referred to me.
Maybe it's just me but by the end I want to punch that guy in the face.
 
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I was trying to be helpful on a clerkship so took the initiative to go through a patient's transferred chart - I couldn't understand why all the residents burst into laughter when I asked them "where can I find things other than the nursing notes?" until they showed me that video.

As a med student sub-I rotating at one of these "outside hospitals" and covering a Patient with a fairly complicated problem list and hospital stay, I took the initiative and wrote up a very lengthy and detailed transfer note before we sent the patient to another facility. My attending saw the note, and while he "let it slide" and left it in the materials we sent over with the patient, suggested that in the future, for "legal reasons" we generally never want to provide so much "detail" when transferring a Patient-- it could come back to bite us, so "saying less is more"... I'm sure just sending the nursing note is a poorly conceived form of defensive medicine.
 
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