Social Justice in Medicine

[canquito]

being told you now have tk want govt to buy them is indoctrination

Just curious, why is this your go-to example? Are you against Medicare Part D?

I don't believe anyone who blanketly says 'the government' is the source (or solutions) of all of our problems deserves to be listened to. However, discussions about why the US does not exercise bargaining/legislative power with pharmaceutical companies to ensure that companies maintain profits without price gouging does merit attention.

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[Dave1980]

Knowing some of your patients can’t afford some meds is good education, being told you now have tk want govt to buy them is indoctrination

America stands for the freedom to be indoctrinated by fast food, video games, and TV NOT the government.

 

[7331poas]

I've seen ER doctors repeatedly tell a man who lived in his car to simply keep his ulcer elevated, dry, and warm without considering his situation. He got his leg amputated eventually.

What else do you want the ER doctor to do? Thats what I dont get about these arguments. Sure you can lecture me on the inequities of life, but I am most certainly not going to do anything about it.

Insurance won't pay for the patient's rehab? Thanks for letting me know, not sure how that helps either me or the patient in this situation though.

 

[TwoHighways]

I've had lectures about microaggressions. IMO, those kinds of lectures don't belong in medical school unless done optionally and by a student-run club.

Lulz, join the club! And “allies” and “white privilege” and “intersectionality” and all sorts of wokespeak.

The “dislike” brigade is out in full force I see. Some things never change at SDN.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What else do you want the ER doctor to do? Thats what I dont get about these arguments. Sure you can lecture me on the inequities of life, but I am most certainly not going to do anything about it.

Insurance won't pay for the patient's rehab? Thanks for letting me know, not sure how that helps either me or the patient in this situation though.

I mean in some cases you can’t do anything about it. But in some cases you can. Or at least get someone involved who can. The realistic “non-woke” approach is that knowing things like this exist can help us help our patients better sometimes, and then sometimes not be able to do **** but at least understand why they might not be adherent so we can be empathetic.

 

[readmypostsMD]

just to sum it up, teaching social justice is low yield af and has a very low return on time invested teaching...

maybe you could spend that time teaching me more about clinical decision making... or pathology for that matter...

 

[deleted480308]

Just curious, why is this your go-to example? Are you against Medicare Part D?

I don't believe anyone who blanketly says 'the government' is the source (or solutions) of all of our problems deserves to be listened to. However, discussions about why the US does not exercise bargaining/legislative power with pharmaceutical companies to ensure that companies maintain profits without price gouging does merit attention.

No, I don’t think medicare should exist

 

[Goro]

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

I don't know. You tell me:

Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Racism on Child and Adolescent Health - PubMed

The American Academy of Pediatrics is committed to addressing the factors that affect child and adolescent health with a focus on issues that may leave some children more vulnerable than others. Racism is a social determinant of health that has a profound impact on the health status of children...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care - PubMed

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A Systematic Review of the Impact of Physician Implicit Racial Bias on Clinical Decision Making - PubMed

The current literature indicates that although many physicians, regardless of specialty, demonstrate an implicit preference for white people, this bias does not appear to impact their clinical decision making. Further studies on the impact of implicit racial bias on racial disparities in ED...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Racism in Medicine: Shifting the Power - PubMed

Medicine has historically been a field where the provider of the service (physician, nurse) has a significant amount of power as compared with the recipient of the service (the patient). For the most part, this power is relatively consistent, and the power dynamic is rarely disrupted. In this...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Physicians' and nurses' experiences of the influence of race and ethnicity on the quality of healthcare provided to minority patients, and on their own professional careers - PubMed

This qualitative content analysis examines data from African-American and Hispanic physician and nurse focus groups conducted by the Institute of Medicine (IOM). Participants discussed the influence of race and ethnicity regarding perspectives on healthcare provided to ethnic minority patients...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The neglect of racism as an ethical issue in health care - PubMed

Race and racism has been increasingly implicated in known disparities in the health and health care of racial, ethnic and cultural minorities groups. Despite the obvious ethical implications of this observation, racism as an ethical issue per se has been relatively neglected in health care...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A systematic review of the extent and measurement of healthcare provider racism - PubMed

Despite burgeoning interest in racism as a contributor to racial disparities in healthcare, we still know little about the extent of healthcare provider racism or how best to measure it. Studies using more sophisticated approaches to assess healthcare provider racism are required to inform...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do I need to go on?

 

[Chibucks15]

I don't know. You tell me:

Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Racism on Child and Adolescent Health - PubMed

The American Academy of Pediatrics is committed to addressing the factors that affect child and adolescent health with a focus on issues that may leave some children more vulnerable than others. Racism is a social determinant of health that has a profound impact on the health status of children...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care - PubMed

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A Systematic Review of the Impact of Physician Implicit Racial Bias on Clinical Decision Making - PubMed

The current literature indicates that although many physicians, regardless of specialty, demonstrate an implicit preference for white people, this bias does not appear to impact their clinical decision making. Further studies on the impact of implicit racial bias on racial disparities in ED...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Racism in Medicine: Shifting the Power - PubMed

Medicine has historically been a field where the provider of the service (physician, nurse) has a significant amount of power as compared with the recipient of the service (the patient). For the most part, this power is relatively consistent, and the power dynamic is rarely disrupted. In this...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Physicians' and nurses' experiences of the influence of race and ethnicity on the quality of healthcare provided to minority patients, and on their own professional careers - PubMed

This qualitative content analysis examines data from African-American and Hispanic physician and nurse focus groups conducted by the Institute of Medicine (IOM). Participants discussed the influence of race and ethnicity regarding perspectives on healthcare provided to ethnic minority patients...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The neglect of racism as an ethical issue in health care - PubMed

Race and racism has been increasingly implicated in known disparities in the health and health care of racial, ethnic and cultural minorities groups. Despite the obvious ethical implications of this observation, racism as an ethical issue per se has been relatively neglected in health care...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A systematic review of the extent and measurement of healthcare provider racism - PubMed

Despite burgeoning interest in racism as a contributor to racial disparities in healthcare, we still know little about the extent of healthcare provider racism or how best to measure it. Studies using more sophisticated approaches to assess healthcare provider racism are required to inform...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do I need to go on?

By the time you get into medical school you’re an adult and if you’re a racist idiot you’re a racist idiot. No class will change your mindset at that point it’s too ingrained

 

[Goro]

This is 100% true unfortunately. A friend of mine knows someone who was recently kicked out of medical school because another student didn’t like something he said and went on a Twitter campaign against him, accusing him of being racist, posting his picture everywhere and asking for retweets. It blew up and now he’s a former med student.

Med schools do their damnedest to keep students in. There is definitely another side to that story, Matt.

I don’t want to out him, but I saw what he posted (it was about a Facebook post), and it was not racist or even unreasonable. It was just an unpopular opinion. A student from a different school saw it, didn’t like it, and went on a crusade. She took his profile picture (which was a white coat pic) and tweeted it with a huge paragraph about how he is racist and going to be a doctor and how the school should kick him out. It got retweeted like a billion times because people don’t actually fact check anything they read anymore, and after getting tagged in thousands of tweets about why they’re letting a racist go to med school, they caved and kicked him out on professionalism.

Now I’m getting it second hand since it’s a friend’s friend. But I did see the post in question and I did see what they wrote about him. And my friend said as far as he knows there’s no deeper story, but obviously I can’t know for sure.

No way he got dismissed from a FB post as you describe it. There's a lot more that we don't know. No twitter campaign will make a med school dive into massive lawsuit country.

 

[readmypostsMD]

I don't know. You tell me:

Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine - PubMed

Acts Committed and Omitted: Acknowledging Racial and Gender Bias in Medicine

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Impact of Racism on Child and Adolescent Health - PubMed

The American Academy of Pediatrics is committed to addressing the factors that affect child and adolescent health with a focus on issues that may leave some children more vulnerable than others. Racism is a social determinant of health that has a profound impact on the health status of children...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care - PubMed

How to Identify, Understand, and Unlearn Implicit Bias in Patient Care

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A Systematic Review of the Impact of Physician Implicit Racial Bias on Clinical Decision Making - PubMed

The current literature indicates that although many physicians, regardless of specialty, demonstrate an implicit preference for white people, this bias does not appear to impact their clinical decision making. Further studies on the impact of implicit racial bias on racial disparities in ED...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Racism in Medicine: Shifting the Power - PubMed

Medicine has historically been a field where the provider of the service (physician, nurse) has a significant amount of power as compared with the recipient of the service (the patient). For the most part, this power is relatively consistent, and the power dynamic is rarely disrupted. In this...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Physicians' and nurses' experiences of the influence of race and ethnicity on the quality of healthcare provided to minority patients, and on their own professional careers - PubMed

This qualitative content analysis examines data from African-American and Hispanic physician and nurse focus groups conducted by the Institute of Medicine (IOM). Participants discussed the influence of race and ethnicity regarding perspectives on healthcare provided to ethnic minority patients...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The neglect of racism as an ethical issue in health care - PubMed

Race and racism has been increasingly implicated in known disparities in the health and health care of racial, ethnic and cultural minorities groups. Despite the obvious ethical implications of this observation, racism as an ethical issue per se has been relatively neglected in health care...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A systematic review of the extent and measurement of healthcare provider racism - PubMed

Despite burgeoning interest in racism as a contributor to racial disparities in healthcare, we still know little about the extent of healthcare provider racism or how best to measure it. Studies using more sophisticated approaches to assess healthcare provider racism are required to inform...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Do I need to go on?

the systematic review states:

“The current literature indicates that although many physicians, regardless of specialty, demonstrate an implicit preference for white people, this bias does not appear to impact their clinical decision making. Further studies on the impact of implicit racial bias on racial disparities in ED treatment are needed.”

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Med schools do their damnedest to keep students in. There is definitely another side to that story, Matt.

I don’t want to out him, but I saw what he posted (it was about a Facebook post), and it was not racist or even unreasonable. It was just an unpopular opinion. A student from a different school saw it, didn’t like it, and went on a crusade. She took his profile picture (which was a white coat pic) and tweeted it with a huge paragraph about how he is racist and going to be a doctor and how the school should kick him out. It got retweeted like a billion times because people don’t actually fact check anything they read anymore, and after getting tagged in thousands of tweets about why they’re letting a racist go to med school, they caved and kicked him out on professionalism.

Now I’m getting it second hand since it’s a friend’s friend. But I did see the post in question and I did see what they wrote about him. And my friend said as far as he knows there’s no deeper story, but obviously I can’t know for sure.

No way he got dismissed from a FB post as you describe it. There's a lot more that we don't know. No twitter campaign will make a med school dive into massive lawsuit country.

Obviously I’m not privy to all the details, but as far as I know he was not in trouble with the school or a trouble maker. This was at the height of organizations being called out for not putting out BLM content and having every company on the face of the earth emailing and posting things to let people know they didn’t like racism just so they wouldn’t get called out by the silence is complicity crowd. There were literally thousands of tweets all of the same post with this guy and all calling for this school to get rid of him or they would ruin the school’s reputation.

People were getting fired from their jobs and **** over innocuous stuff out of fear of bad PR. I totally believe he got booted over that. Last year? I wouldn’t have believed it.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if there was more to the story though.

Edit: also someone in my school got booted this year over a Facebook post, but it was totally deserved.

 

[Candidate2017]

I've seen ER doctors repeatedly tell a man who lived in his car to simply keep his ulcer elevated, dry, and warm without considering his situation. He got his leg amputated eventually.

Did you see his chart by any chance?

If you did, you'd probably see he has been in the ED and hospital numerous times and had multiple ED docs, internists, psychiatrists, surgeons, ID docs, endocrinologists, PM&R docs, pharmacists, nurses, social workers, techs, nutritionists, physical therapists, Medicaid billers, cooks and janitors render their services and time to him, along with numerous expensive lab tests and imaging, and medications. Probably at least a million dollars worth of goods and services because... 'Murica. Back in the old days, not following doctors' orders would've been enough to lock him up indefinitely for his own good.

Clearly you dropped the ball. Had you offered him your couch for a week or two while he convalesced, he wouldn't have had his leg amputated. I'm sure you directly caused a couple of med students to suffer through hours of standing in the OR during his amputation, who also had to round on him at 4 AM and change his dressings. Don't drop the ball next time.

 

[scubascuba]

Did you see his chart by any chance?

If you did, you'd probably see he has been in the ED and hospital numerous times and had multiple ED docs, internists, psychiatrists, surgeons, ID docs, endocrinologists, PM&R docs, pharmacists, nurses, social workers, techs, nutritionists, physical therapists, Medicaid billers, cooks and janitors render their services and time to him, along with numerous expensive lab tests and imaging, and medications. Probably at least a million dollars worth of goods and services because... 'Murica. Back in the old days, not following doctors' orders would've been enough to lock him up indefinitely for his own good.

Clearly you dropped the ball. Had you offered him your couch for a week or two while he convalesced, he wouldn't have had his leg amputated. I'm sure you directly caused a couple of med students to suffer through hours of standing in the OR during his amputation, who also had to round on him at 4 AM and change his dressings. Don't drop the ball next time.

Yes I saw his chart and had lengthy conversations with him. His only medical problems were hypertension, diabetes, and the ulcer. No psych issues. He worked full time and lived in his car. His only visits were to the ED for his ulcer and his PCP for managing his hypertension and diabetes- which was verified through Care Everywhere. He had no hospital stays until his amputation. I knew the social worker that was assigned to him after the amputation and he had friends that he could stay on their couch. If it had been stressed to him that care for his ulcer was impossible in his car, he would have stayed on their couch earlier- he just didn't want to be a burden.

 

[7331poas]

I don't know. You tell me:


Do I need to go on?

Is this the part where I respond with articles showing the prevalence of diagnostic error in medicine?

 

[dr_kateb]

What else do you want the ER doctor to do? Thats what I dont get about these arguments. Sure you can lecture me on the inequities of life, but I am most certainly not going to do anything about it.

Insurance won't pay for the patient's rehab? Thanks for letting me know, not sure how that helps either me or the patient in this situation though.

Most SJWs do very little to fix the problems, if they even exist. They throw a tantrum online to either mask guilt or feel morally superior to overcompensate for something.

 

[scubascuba]

What else do you want the ER doctor to do? Thats what I dont get about these arguments. Sure you can lecture me on the inequities of life, but I am most certainly not going to do anything about it.

Insurance won't pay for the patient's rehab? Thanks for letting me know, not sure how that helps either me or the patient in this situation though.

Ask about the man's situation. Understand that he lives in his car and tell him that it will likely get worse unless he can find somewhere to stay until it gets better. Think of a creative way to help keep it elevated, warm, and dry in his car if possible.

It's about understanding the patient's situation and thinking of creative ways around the system they are stuck in. Can't pay for rehab? Here's a printout sheet of exercises you can do on your own or information about a clinic that does sliding scale payment. If the system doesn't allow for a patient to get proper treatment, doctors should at least attempt to find a way around it. It's better than doing nothing.

 

[Goro]

Is this the part where I respond with articles showing the prevalence of diagnostic error in medicine?

Nice false equivalence there.

Let's put it this way.

You learn about the effect of diet on metabolism and how it leads to disease.

You learn about how microbes cause disease.

You learn about how people's choices cause disease

You learn about how genes cause disease.

But societal causes of illness, which is a very real thing, is off the table????

No one is saying that you, as a doctor, need to be a social work, that's what social workers are for. But learning that racism actually makes people sick; that implicit biases are real and can affect medical decisions, are still a no-go?

Really?

 

[Goro]

Obviously I’m not privy to all the details, but as far as I know he was not in trouble with the school or a trouble maker. This was at the height of organizations being called out for not putting out BLM content and having every company on the face of the earth emailing and posting things to let people know they didn’t like racism just so they wouldn’t get called out by the silence is complicity crowd. There were literally thousands of tweets all of the same post with this guy and all calling for this school to get rid of him or they would ruin the school’s reputation.

People were getting fired from their jobs and **** over innocuous stuff out of fear of bad PR. I totally believe he got booted over that. Last year? I wouldn’t have believed it.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if there was more to the story though.

Edit: also someone in my school got booted this year over a Facebook post, but it was totally deserved.

I was having a converstation witht he O-man about this and my comments were:
I will wager that like the typical iceberg, there's a lot more that we haven't seen....I would imagine that the school told him to knock it off, and he persisted to the point of overt insubordination. Phenotype of "I'm gonna voice my opinion whether you like it or not!!!"

Other unprofessional behavior in his past wouldn't surprise me. As you may have seen in problem residents, once one gets on the radar, multiple eyeballs are open, and all the blips get tallied up.

Just saw the tweet in questions. My first reaction was "not a good idea to pour gasoline on a raging fire". So at a minimum, it WAS an inflammatory post.

I'd love to read what UIW's social media policy is. Knowing how cautious my own school's lawyers are, I'll wager that UIW has a lot of ammo to back them up. I just don't see them dismissing him over a Twitter SJW campaign. Has to be more there.

And to reiterate, it's harder to get out of medical school than to get in, and as such, med schools, like residencies, have to be pushed very far to actually dismiss a student.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Nice false equivalence there.

Let's put it this way.

You learn about the effect of diet on metabolism and how it leads to disease.

You learn about how microbes cause disease.

You learn about how people's choices cause disease

You learn about how genes cause disease.

But societal causes of illness, which is a very real thing, is off the table????

No one is saying that you, as a doctor, need to be a social work, that's what social workers are for. But learning that racism actually makes people sick; that implicit biases are real and can affect medical decisions, are still a no-go?

Really?

Racism doesn't make people sick.

 

[Goro]

Racism doesn't make people sick.

C'mon VA, make it challenging for me! These took about four mins to find, for starters. I'd dig up more but the daughter wants a ride to Starbucks.

STRUCTURAL RACISM AND HEALTH INEQUITIES: Old Issues, New Directions1

Racial minorities bear a disproportionate burden of morbidity and mortality. These inequities might be explained by racism, given the fact that racism has restricted the lives of racial minorities and immigrants throughout history. Recent studies have ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Experienced discrimination and racial differences in leukocyte gene expression

Racial disparities in health outcomes between African Americans and European Americans have been well-documented, but not fully understood. Chronic in…

www.sciencedirect.com

Differential Effects of Personal-Level vs Group-Level Racial Discrimination on Health among Black Americans - PubMed

Perceived group-level racial discrimination may serve as one of several health protective factors even when individuals perceive personal-level racial discrimination. The present findings demonstrate the importance of examining both personal- and group-level experiences of racial discrimination...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Race, socioeconomic status, and health. The added effects of racism and discrimination - PubMed

Higher disease rates for blacks (or African Americans) compared to whites are pervasive and persistent over time, with the racial gap in mortality widening in recent years for multiple causes of death. Other racial/ethnic minority populations also have elevated disease risk for some health...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biopsychosocial correlates of discrimination in daily life: A review - PubMed

The bulk of the literature on the relationship of discrimination to health has relied on retrospective reports of perceived exposure to discrimination. Much less is known known about the real-time within-person association between discrimination and biopsychosocial processes. Intensive...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[dr_kateb]

Found the post.



Pretty bad on its own - poor word choice and tone. Even worse timing. Worst of all thinking that posting this would be a good idea.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

C'mon VA, make it challenging for me! These took about four mins to find, for starters. I'd dig up more but the daughter wants a ride to Starbucks.

STRUCTURAL RACISM AND HEALTH INEQUITIES: Old Issues, New Directions1

Racial minorities bear a disproportionate burden of morbidity and mortality. These inequities might be explained by racism, given the fact that racism has restricted the lives of racial minorities and immigrants throughout history. Recent studies have ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Experienced discrimination and racial differences in leukocyte gene expression

Racial disparities in health outcomes between African Americans and European Americans have been well-documented, but not fully understood. Chronic in…

www.sciencedirect.com

Differential Effects of Personal-Level vs Group-Level Racial Discrimination on Health among Black Americans - PubMed

Perceived group-level racial discrimination may serve as one of several health protective factors even when individuals perceive personal-level racial discrimination. The present findings demonstrate the importance of examining both personal- and group-level experiences of racial discrimination...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Race, socioeconomic status, and health. The added effects of racism and discrimination - PubMed

Higher disease rates for blacks (or African Americans) compared to whites are pervasive and persistent over time, with the racial gap in mortality widening in recent years for multiple causes of death. Other racial/ethnic minority populations also have elevated disease risk for some health...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biopsychosocial correlates of discrimination in daily life: A review - PubMed

The bulk of the literature on the relationship of discrimination to health has relied on retrospective reports of perceived exposure to discrimination. Much less is known known about the real-time within-person association between discrimination and biopsychosocial processes. Intensive...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don't think those studies say what you think they do.

I'll address them in the morning, but the short version is those absolutely do not prove that racism by itself causes poor health outcomes.

 

[TwoHighways]

How much “racism” is actually just someone being a jerk because that person just so happens to be a jerk or simply because they’re having a bad day and you caught them at the wrong time? Is “perceived” racism actual racism? How much better off would we all be if we didn’t assume the worst about each other? It’s a horrible accusation to be called a racist and we ought to choose our words more carefully when ascribing it to someone simply because they don’t buy into identity politics and postmodernist thought.

 

[TwoHighways]

Found the post.



Pretty bad on its own - poor word choice and tone. Even worse timing. Worst of all thinking that posting this would be a good idea.

I’m no supporter of BLM as an organization nor do I share any feelings of understanding or goodwill towards people rioting, looting, and burning down buildings, but even I think the tone is a bit much, and never would have said any of that anonymously (and my record shows I’m clearly not afraid to express a controversial opinion here haha), much less on social media. That being said, if you made the same disparaging remarks towards trump supporters, the kid likely gets a pass.

It’s the rhetoric that could be perceived as racist, even though he does not mention a particular race as being “animals”.

 

[deleted859689]

Unless you’re a law maker, our opinion and literally everything we type makes little to no difference in the grand scheme of things. Anyone is free to have their own opinion, but unless you’re were a lawyer working on law reform, anything but your vote won’t make a significant difference. Sure it’s good to be cultured and be aware of what’s around you, and debates like these are good for that. I believe as physicians/future physicians, however, we should be aware of what factors influence a persons health. It doesn’t matter whether you lean right or left. Look at the studies and statistics to see whether or not a socioeconomic factor etc. plays a role in an individuals health.

On that note, we aren’t social workers either, however when a physician treats a patient, I believe one should be aware and acknowledge the results of peer reviewed studies so we can best influence a patient’s health and offer the best advice based on those studies to make them healthy and happy. That doesn’t mean though we need to go out and find them a home.

Education is important in all the factors that effect most people’s heath in the US. Learning what to eat, how to cook, how to manage your own health without popping into the ED every 5 seconds will literally solve most of our problems. Better education will allow people to find better jobs and decrease the pay gap while stimulating our economy. Sadly, our education system is crap and dealing with that doesn’t pay as much as a physician. In addition, you can give a person all the opportunity in the world, however if they don’t capitalize on it then it doesn’t matter. It’s also not hard or even expensive to buy healthy food, throw it in a pot and eat it. Making it taste good, however, takes some skill and time.

TLDR: you can lean all the way right and all the way left and still be a good doctor if you listen to science. Education will solve most of our problems. Literally what we type as non-law makers has no impact on the grand scheme of things. Go out and vote.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Unless you’re a law maker, our opinion and literally everything we type makes little to no difference in the grand scheme of things. Anyone is free to have their own opinion, but unless you’re were a lawyer working on law reform, anything but your vote won’t make a significant difference. Sure it’s good to be cultured and be aware of what’s around you, and debates like these are good for that. I believe as physicians/future physicians, however, we should be aware of what factors influence a persons health. It doesn’t matter whether you lean right or left. Look at the studies and statistics to see whether or not a socioeconomic factor etc. plays a role in an individuals health.

On that note, we aren’t social workers either, however when a physician treats a patient, I believe one should be aware and acknowledge the results of peer reviewed studies so we can best influence a patient’s health and offer the best advice based on those studies to make them healthy and happy. That doesn’t mean though we need to go out and find them a home.

Education is important in all the factors that effect most people’s heath in the US. Learning what to eat, how to cook, how to manage your own health without popping into the ED every 5 seconds will literally solve most of our problems. Better education will allow people to find better jobs and decrease the pay gap while stimulating our economy. Sadly, our education system is crap and dealing with that doesn’t pay as much as a physician. In addition, you can give a person all the opportunity in the world, however if they don’t capitalize on it then it doesn’t matter. It’s also not hard or even expensive to buy healthy food, throw it in a pot and eat it. Making it taste good, however, takes some skill and time.

TLDR: you can lean all the way right and all the way left and still be a good doctor if you listen to science. Education will solve most of our problems. Literally what we type as non-law makers has no impact on the grand scheme of things. Go out and vote.

The issue isn’t the science-based stuff for the most part. Take the microaggressions lecture we had at my school. They propose that by asking someone where they’re from, with the caveat being they’re not white or have an accent, you’re causing active harm to these people. That’s not science no matter how you try to cut it. Could it be ignorance? Sure, but it could just as easily be curiosity. I’ve been asked where I’m from pretty much everywhere I’ve gone, it doesn’t hurt me at all to tell people I’m from a different country.

The other issue is that you really aren’t allowed to have a different opinion. If I were to disagree with utility of the differentiation of BIPOC vs POC publicly at my school, I would be crucified.

 

[deleted859689]

The issue isn’t the science-based stuff for the most part. Take the microaggressions lecture we had at my school. They propose that by asking someone where they’re from, with the caveat being they’re not white or have an accent, you’re causing active harm to these people. That’s not science no matter how you try to cut it. Could it be ignorance? Sure, but it could just as easily be curiosity. I’ve been asked where I’m from pretty much everywhere I’ve gone, it doesn’t hurt me at all to tell people I’m from a different country.

The other issue is that you really aren’t allowed to have a different opinion. If I were to disagree with utility of the differentiation of BIPOC vs POC publicly at my school, I would be crucified.

In my opinion, we all have our innate biases that might make us jump to conclusions before getting all the facts straight, or make us disregard what a patient says. Understanding that these biases exist can help is mitigate those innate tendencies when treating a patient with fact based medicine. Unfortunately, a human or group of humans with their own biases make a school’s curriculum, and they may have an opinion or agenda that differs from your own. They are the people in power that have control of whether or not your graduate. I agree that not being able to express your own counter-opinions or arguments without significant backlash sucks, however life isn’t fair. Deal with it, graduate, make $$$ and treat patients to the best of your ability. If you want to be able to express your own opinion and change what a school teaches, go into administration or law.

 

[TwoHighways]

Or simply stand our ground against the perverseness that is cancel culture in a way that it would make it difficult for a school to dismiss a student without legal ramifications.

 

[TwoHighways]

Reading Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve” might instill some realism into how effective social interventions are/will be.

Focus on the medicine.

Just reading the synopsis, there’s no way in hell that book would be published today, whether the science was valid or not.

 

[deleted859689]

Or simply stand our ground against the perverseness that is cancel culture in a way that it would make it difficult for a school to dismiss a student without legal ramifications.

As long as you understand the risks and headaches involved, I can’t disagree with standing up for what you believe in.

Unfortunately, I don’t give a care whether or not someone gets cancelled or not because of their opinion because I’ll never put myself in that situation. Like I said, type what you want and feel free to express your opinion that will literally change nothing except people’s opinion of you whether positive or negative. Your vote matters more than a post on social media.

That doesn’t mean I agree or disagree with cancel culture. I just don’t have the time nor the will power to address it. It’s also not my job to. Right now my job is to mash spacebar as fast as I can.

which I’m failing at right now.

 

[readmypostsMD]

Ask about the man's situation. Understand that he lives in his car and tell him that it will likely get worse unless he can find somewhere to stay until it gets better. Think of a creative way to help keep it elevated, warm, and dry in his car if possible.

It's about understanding the patient's situation and thinking of creative ways around the system they are stuck in. Can't pay for rehab? Here's a printout sheet of exercises you can do on your own or information about a clinic that does sliding scale payment. If the system doesn't allow for a patient to get proper treatment, doctors should at least attempt to find a way around it. It's better than doing nothing.

if a doctor needs a Med school course to figure these simple things out, they don’t have the intellectual capacity to be a physician.

you don’t need a course to teach you to take the patients life into account

 

[operaman]

I’m no supporter of BLM as an organization nor do I share any feelings of understanding or goodwill towards people rioting, looting, and burning down buildings, but even I think the tone is a bit much, and never would have said any of that anonymously (and my record shows I’m clearly not afraid to express a controversial opinion here haha), much less on social media. That being said, if you made the same disparaging remarks towards trump supporters, the kid likely gets a pass.

It’s the rhetoric that could be perceived as racist, even though he does not mention a particular race as being “animals”.

Honestly I think 90% of what hosed him is that his name sounds like someone who goes to a Connecticut boarding school and summers in the Hamptons. If his name more reflected his status as the son of a Mexican immigrant I think the Twitterati would have been less inclined to pounce.

Really all he needs to find are some social media posts from any other student at his school in the last 5-10 years where they made any sort of racially charged comment and were not expelled. If it survives summary judgement then his attorneys could subpoena records of past disciplinary proceedings against other students who maybe did similar things and weren’t expelled. Then all you have to do is show that they only material difference is that those people were not Mexican American like he is.

I do wonder what the real story is. I wouldn’t be surprised if they just had him take a year LOA to let things cool down. he surely wasn’t going to fare well in the Match this year anyhow so maybe they’re exercising some discretion. Even if he made that post today it would be far less inflammatory than it was back the, especially now that 95% of the protestors and rioters are white.

Either way they definitely haven’t made any official statement so twitter thinks he is still a student there.

 

[readmypostsMD]

 

[Iz_FtB]

I'd argue that the way the Woke among us are hyperfocused on hammering demographics instead of shared humanity is counter-productive. Human beings are tribal by nature. By focusing incessantly, inappropriately, on the things that separate us, we only accentuate our tribal instincts. That's not a good thing.

I am not advocating for glossing over real differences in outcomes that can be mapped across demographic lines, but I am saying if you think "racism" is driving differences in healthcare at a societal level, you are tilting at windmills. You will accomplish nothing for no one.

I genuinely wish there was more productive work being done to advance real social justice, like a universal basic income, universal voter registration, universal day care etc etc. Instead we have the pathological self-promoters trying to convince others of their own self-righteousness in a vacuum. These people are part of the problem and are consuming oxygen better spent discussing meaningful and actionable solutions.

I'm afraid to say that if the centrifugal forces acting on us don't get checked, the genuinely disadvantaged among us will end off worse than where we started.

 

[readmypostsMD]

I’m no supporter of BLM as an organization nor do I share any feelings of understanding or goodwill towards people rioting, looting, and burning down buildings, but even I think the tone is a bit much, and never would have said any of that anonymously (and my record shows I’m clearly not afraid to express a controversial opinion here haha), much less on social media. That being said, if you made the same disparaging remarks towards trump supporters, the kid likely gets a pass.

It’s the rhetoric that could be perceived as racist, even though he does not mention a particular race as being “animals”.

I mean the dude has a point w his stats...

 

[readmypostsMD]

I'd argue that the way the Woke among us are hyperfocused on hammering demographics instead of shared humanity is counter-productive. Human beings are tribal by nature. By focusing incessantly, inappropriately, on the things that separate us, we only accentuate our tribal instincts. That's not a good thing.

I am not advocating for glossing over real differences in outcomes that can be mapped across demographic lines, but I am saying if you think "racism" is driving differences in healthcare at a societal level, you are tilting at windmills. You will accomplish nothing for no one.

I genuinely wish there was more productive work being done to advance real social justice, like a universal basic income, universal voter registration, universal day care etc etc. Instead we have the pathological self-promoters trying to convince others of their own self-righteousness in a vacuum. These people are part of the problem and are consuming oxygen better spent discussing meaningful and actionable solutions.

I'm afraid to say that if the centrifugal forces acting on us don't get checked, the genuinely disadvantaged among us will end off worse than where we started.

bruh, UBI is economically illogical

if you give everyone more money to buy ****, the people selling you **** will increase the price of that ****

like if I was a landlord and knew u we’re getting $1000 more a month, guess what I’m doing next year?

 

[readmypostsMD]

I’m no supporter of BLM as an organization nor do I share any feelings of understanding or goodwill towards people rioting, looting, and burning down buildings, but even I think the tone is a bit much, and never would have said any of that anonymously (and my record shows I’m clearly not afraid to express a controversial opinion here haha), much less on social media. That being said, if you made the same disparaging remarks towards trump supporters, the kid likely gets a pass.

It’s the rhetoric that could be perceived as racist, even though he does not mention a particular race as being “animals”.

Also LMAO @ Tony Nguyen’s Twitter bio

“Aspiring vascular surgeon | OMS-4 |
@UIWSOM|#ComprehensiveVascularCare | #SDOH |”

 

[TwoHighways]

I'd argue that the way the Woke among us are hyperfocused on hammering demographics instead of shared humanity is counter-productive. Human beings are tribal by nature. By focusing incessantly, inappropriately, on the things that separate us, we only accentuate our tribal instincts. That's not a good thing.

I am not advocating for glossing over real differences in outcomes that can be mapped across demographic lines, but I am saying if you think "racism" is driving differences in healthcare at a societal level, you are tilting at windmills. You will accomplish nothing for no one.

I genuinely wish there was more productive work being done to advance real social justice, like a universal basic income, universal voter registration, universal day care etc etc. Instead we have the pathological self-promoters trying to convince others of their own self-righteousness in a vacuum. These people are part of the problem and are consuming oxygen better spent discussing meaningful and actionable solutions.

I'm afraid to say that if the centrifugal forces acting on us don't get checked, the genuinely disadvantaged among us will end off worse than where we started.

So much yes to this! Not just the disadvantaged among us either. I feel like the very fabric of America society is in jeopardy, but that’s discussion well beyond social justice topics in medical curriculum.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Found the post.



Pretty bad on its own - poor word choice and tone. Even worse timing. Worst of all thinking that posting this would be a good idea.

Oh yeah. That is NOT the guy I was talking about lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That being said, if you made the same disparaging remarks towards trump supporters, the kid likely gets a pass.

If he called Trump the devil’s anus and burned an effigy in his front yard, he would probably be called a hero.

 

[Tenk]

While I agree with most of what you said, reality is we deal with far more social problems in practice than you can ever appreciate as a student. Just part of the job. Shrug.

 

[ciestar]

While I agree with most of what you said, reality is we deal with far more social problems in practice than you can ever appreciate as a student. Just part of the job. Shrug.

Exactly. I think it is beneficial to at least introduce students to SDoH. I had a very rewarding rotation in med school where that was an objective of the course. I went to a shelter for victims of domestic abuse, a WIC office, a homeless shelter, etc, you learn a lot about what others go through. That, and also just learning about ACEs in general, and the health outcomes associated with it. Many of us don’t want to ask the uncomfortable questions that you need to ask.

I felt I had a better understanding given my background, but a lot of med students have no clue.

Overall, it doesnt hurt to be aware of these things to take into consideration as a physician. Of course, nobody’s beliefs should ever be forced on anyone.

 

[dr_kateb]

Oh yeah. That is NOT the guy I was talking about lol.

Your story makes less sense now? This guy apparently only got told to take 1 year off to "study racism" and then he can come back. The guy you know was straight up expelled for something less severe?

Also LMAO @ Tony Nguyen’s Twitter bio

“Aspiring vascular surgeon | OMS-4 |
@UIWSOM|#ComprehensiveVascularCare | #SDOH |”

Not gonna lie I giggled a bit. Hey, maybe his Twitter wokeness will help him match a MD dominated specialty

 

[radsisrad]

What are your thoughts about social justicey type stuff creeping into medical curriculum? I came here to be a doctor and to care for people and pathology is pathology. I’m not a social worker, political activist, or nurse, nor do I care to be one. Discussions about climate change, race relations, and covid hysteria (denialism and lockdown proponents) aren’t going to make me any more capable of running a code, interpreting labs, or remembering important anatomical relationships.

Too late. Med school is college 2.0, with all the attendant stupidity, immaturity, and conformity. Keep your head down during med school and residency. Once you're an attending, you can tell people who want to lecture you about this stuff to **** off.

 

[TwoHighways]

That’s the thing though. I’m not afraid to push back, consequences be damned. Whether you like or hate the guy, Jordan Peterson’s knowledge of how totalitarian states come to power has been incredibly illuminating. We have an individual responsibility to counter false narratives and to push back against the suppression of speech for the sake of keeping the peace temporarily. If this stuff continues unchecked, you’ll rue the day that you didn’t speak up as the consequences for doing so get even more severe.

That being said, I’m a bit of a hypocrite in that I totally left my class groupme a while back, for my annoyance with the judgey SJW types. Likely was a good thing for me in that I was spending too much time on it and anatomy block isn’t coming as easy for me as I’d like.

 

[radsisrad]

That’s the thing though. I’m not afraid to push back, consequences be damned. Whether you like or hate the guy, Jordan Peterson’s knowledge of how totalitarian states come to power has been incredibly illuminating. We have an individual responsibility to counter false narratives.

The world needs sane doctors who won't ask patients if they've ever been diagnosed with privilege or suffer from xenophobia. The world is better off with you in the system, focusing on science instead of fashionable politics. The most I would recommend that you do is remain neutral/silent on these issues. If another student or resident confronts you on that, you can tell them to **** off. As far as higher authorities go, a med school or residency cannot force you to express political views; if they did, lawyers would salivate at the invitation to sue.

 

[TwoHighways]

The world needs sane doctors who won't ask patients if they've ever been diagnosed with privilege or suffer from xenophobia. The world is better off with you in the system, focusing on science instead of fashionable politics. The most I would recommend that you do is remain neutral/silent on these issues. If another student or resident confronts you on that, you can tell them to **** off. As far as higher authorities go, a med school or residency cannot force you to express political views; if they did, lawyers would salivate at the invitation to sue.

I’ll die on the speaking truth, regardless of the consequences hill. I can’t in good conscience not counter an outright lie or gross oversimplification of a deeply complex issue based on political expediency or virtue signaling.

And it’s not that I’m so self righteous. I just fear the consequences of not doing so more than doing so. The value of my being isn’t determined by whether I become a physician or not.

 

[readmypostsMD]

 

[radsisrad]

I’ll die on the speaking truth, regardless of the consequences hill. I can’t in good conscience not counter an outright lie or gross oversimplification of a deeply complex issue based on political expediency or virtue signaling.

And it’s not that I’m so self righteous. I just fear the consequences of not doing so more than doing so. The value of my being isn’t determined by whether I become a physician or not.

Here's what's going to happen. You're going to make your views known; some of your classmates will bi*** about you to the Dean of Inclusion, Openmindedness, and Intersectionality; you'll be asked to explain yourself; and you'll end up "moderating" your views in an acute panic to avoid further trouble. Assuming that your school doesn't cave to the screeching *****s who bi***ed about you in the first place and you continue essentially unscathed, you'll end up kicking yourself for having compromised.

Alternatively, you can keep your head down and avoid the drama. You're not in a position to fight the corporatized interests backing the SJW causes. Don't fight the clonglomerate of Doordash, Walmart, Amazon, Verizon, Uber, and 500 other giant companies. Jordan Peterson can afford to do so, because his career is political engagement. Yours is not. Stay quiet and stay safe from the mob.