Sexual assault or misconduct. What are my chances?

[MD-PhD-NonTrad]

Well I see your point but I also want to point out that what goes on the record stays on the record, just so that the OP is aware

So even if OP successfully took legal action, they would have to report “I was found guilty by my institution of sexual assault, however further review and legal intervention deemed the charge false and the case was later dismissed. However, the previous guilty verdict remains present as a university decision.” Interesting.

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[jhmmd]

So even if OP successfully took legal action, they would have to report “I was found guilty by my institution of sexual assault, however further review and legal intervention deemed the charge false and the case was later dismissed. However, the previous guilty verdict remains present as a university decision.” Interesting.

1. Institutional action is not a "guilty" or "not guilty" thing, in the same way that these terms apply to a court of law. If one has institutional action on one's record, one must report it, whether or not one agrees with it.
2. "Guilty verdict"--from my understanding, we were talking about "student court" at a college, not a court of law.
3. I am not saying that if the student court dismisses the case, the student would still have to report institutional action. But the facts are (as stated on the previous page) that the student WAS found guilty of institutional action.
4. His/her next steps are
a. To appeal
b. To take this case to a court of law
c. Either way, I think it's going to create a paper trail.

Hope this helps you OP.

 

[Moko]

In the very very unlikely event that the undergrad school states “this is a sealed event and will be shared with no one” then isn’t that in essence not an IA? Or am I misinformed on what an IA is?

AMCAS clearly states that these instances still need to be reported, so whether this is sealed and/or "shared with no one" is irrelevant.

Per AMCAS:
"Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition"

 

[KnightDoc]

As it is very unlikely the friends physically witnessed an assault (as that would likely produce tangible evidence) the witness reports from friends are more likely confirmations by the friends of what the potential victim told them, which amounts to the hearsay OP is stating. This is not to say the assault didn’t occur, however a case based solely on hearsay is an unfortunate circumstance for everyone involved.

What he could do is request their transcript to see if it is on there, then reach out to the office officials to see if a record of it is kept with the university provost or deans office and ask if this information would ever be communicated to outside entities such as graduate schools or employers. If the school by chance says “No we will not share this,” I say apply and don’t mention it on the application. If it turns out you do need to mention it, well you just lied on your application and you will get marked and blacklisted anyway.

So, your advice is to lie by omission if you determine you might be able to get away with it. Be sure to include that in your CASPer and MMI responses.

 

[candbgirl]

This is good reading .

Legal Matters: Institutional Action Basics - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[MD-PhD-NonTrad]

1. Institutional action is not a "guilty" or "not guilty" thing, in the same way that these terms apply to a court of law. If one has institutional action on one's record, one must report it, whether or not one agrees with it.
2. "Guilty verdict"--from my understanding, we were talking about "student court" at a college, not a court of law.
3. I am not saying that if the student court dismisses the case, the student would still have to report institutional action. But the facts are (as stated on the previous page) that the student WAS found guilty of institutional action.
4. His/her next steps are
a. To appeal
b. To take this case to a court of law
c. Either way, I think it's going to create a paper trail.

Hope this helps you OP.

AMCAS clearly states that these instances still need to be reported, so whether this is sealed and/or "shared with no one" is irrelevant.

Per AMCAS:
"Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition"

Ah, that makes much more sense. Appreciate the clarification, I didn’t realize the extent/depth to which IAs could go.

 

[MD-PhD-NonTrad]

So, your advice is to lie by omission if you determine you might be able to get away with it. Be sure to include that in your CASPer and MMI responses.

I thought “if the school says it isn’t an IA then it isn’t an IA” was applicable. I see that is not the case given AMCAS clearly states even if you petitioned it to go away. Never lie on the application to anyone reading.

 

[candbgirl]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Appreciate the clarification, I didn’t realize the extent/depth to which IAs could go.

At the Best they can be a wake up call, at worse they can be career Enders.

 

[jhmmd]

I thought “if the school says it isn’t an IA then it isn’t an IA” was applicable. I see that is not the case given AMCAS clearly states even if you petitioned it to go away. Never lie on the application to anyone reading.

Yes you must report ALL institutional action.
Yes it looks better if one has successfully appealed such institutional action, but of course not as good as if it never occurred in the first place.
There aren't a lot of gray areas when it comes to institutional action.

 

[candbgirl]

And he lost his appeal so ...

 

[KnightDoc]

I thought “if the school says it isn’t an IA then it isn’t an IA” was applicable. I see that is not the case given AMCAS clearly states even if you petitioned it to go away. Never lie on the application to anyone reading.

It is, but, the school agreeing not to disclose the IA is not the same as there not being one! You're confusing the school agreeing there is nothing here and not even having a hearing with them conducting one, finding OP guilty, and then, maybe, for whatever reason, sealing the file. Huge difference. One is not disclosable, and the other is the very reason AMCAS' instructions read the way they do.

"I have been going through the Title IX process. I have been found responsible for sexual assault based on a preponderance of the evidence. My appeal did not work. Currently, my sanctions are immediate removal from campus and I am not allowed to walk graduation." -- This is an IA under ANY definition of one.

For the record, given how serious this is, and what the sanctions were, it's pretty unlikely it wouldn't be disclosed if and when a med school specifically inquired (as they almost certainly would pre-matriculation), but, AMCAS covers that in its instructions, so your advice flat out amounted to ignoring the instructions if you don't think you will get caught. HIGHLY UNETHICAL, even if seemingly practical. Screwing around with this is playing with fire because, as others stated above, if it EVER comes out, OP would be toast.

 

[deleted1102960]

No. If there is as little evidence as is being presented by OP, and we don’t know if this is the full story but if it is, then him taking legal action to remove the mark I feel could be successful. Unless the school just doubles down and says that hearsay is tantamount to evidence.

edit to clarify: Sue the institution not the potential victim.

The school has decided that the hearsay witness statements were enough. Her medical records show zero indication of assault. She claimed bleeding and pain and then in her medical reports it says there was no bleeding and she said in her chief complaint that she had zero pain. The school has taken witness statement to attest to how drunk she was but each witness had a different story and most of them said she drank before coming to my party. How much she drank at the party is a question mark. Some say she didn’t drink at my party and some say she downed half a handle. I never saw her drink at my party. The evidence was little to none. Witness statements were all over the place. I obviously cannot post the investigation report due to privacy laws but I can assure you it doesn’t add up however the college has such a low burden of proof that witness accounts whether factual or not were enough to find me responsible. No assault took place and every physical piece of evidence shows that.

 

[jhmmd]

The school has decided that the hearsay witness statements were enough. Her medical records show zero indication of assault. She claimed bleeding and pain and then in her medical reports it says there was no bleeding and she said in her chief complaint that she had zero pain. The school has taken witness statement to attest to how drunk she was but each witness had a different story and most of them said she drank before coming to my party. How much she drank at the party is a question mark. Some say she didn’t drink at my party and some say she downed half a handle. I never saw her drink at my party. The evidence was little to none. Witness statements were all over the place. I obviously cannot post the investigation report due to privacy laws but I can assure you it doesn’t add up however the college has such a low burden of proof that witness accounts whether factual or not were enough to find me responsible. No assault took place and every physical piece of evidence shows that.

For your own safety I would advise you to quit posting details like this on the internet. Law, as well as medicine, is a very small world.

 

[deleted1102960]

Do you feel this is too much information? I will take it down

 

[jhmmd]

Do you feel this is too much information? I will take it down

It's your call but it seems like the conversation is changing focus from what you can do to get into medical school/next steps to the actual sequence of events that happened at said party

 

[deleted1102960]

It's your call but it seems like the conversation is changing focus from what you can do to get into medical school/next steps to the actual sequence of events that happened at said party

I apologize. That’s not my intention. I’m just trying to figure out what needs to be done. I am innocent yet I find myself in position where I lost everything what I have worked for

 

[DelineSan]

OP, you may have lost your appeal, but you could continue escalating the situation higher up the food chain at your college. If you honestly think your college's review board was faulty, email your Dean or your College President directly!

Don't give up; ruffle a few feathers if you need to!!!

 

[Mr.Blackdoc.5]

Perhaps OP could consider becoming a physician in another country?

haven’t been through school conduct systems and seeing how much BS is there, wouldn’t say another word to the school myself if I was an OPs position. Would hire the best possible lawyer who specializes in cases like these.

 

[Helpful Troll]

@chessraja22 Was the accuser a resident in the dorms?

 

[Osminog]

I apologize. That’s not my intention. I’m just trying to figure out what needs to be done. I am innocent yet I find myself in position where I lost everything what I have worked for

If you are set on becoming a physician, your best bet would be to go to an offshore school. I don’t think ERAS asks you to report undergraduate IAs, so it shouldn’t serve as a red flag when you apply to residency. (Before choosing this route, learn about the inherent risks and downsides of attending an offshore school, so you can make an informed decision.)

Nobody deserves to be railroaded by Title IX kangaroo courts. These sorts of extrajudicial proceedings don’t belong in a free society that claims to prioritize the rights of the innocent over punishments for the guilty. Very sorry to hear about your situation.

 

[jhmmd]

If you are set on becoming a physician, your best bet would be to go to an offshore school. I don’t think ERAS asks you to report undergraduate IAs, so it shouldn’t serve as a red flag when you apply to residency. (Before choosing this route, learn about the inherent risks and downsides of attending an offshore school, so you can make an informed decision.)

Nobody deserves to be railroaded by Title IX kangaroo courts. These sorts of extrajudicial proceedings don’t belong in a free society that claims to prioritize the rights of the innocent over punishments for the guilty. Very sorry to hear about your situation.

To be fair though, Title IX has a lot of redeeming qualities and is in place for a reason. It has evolved from purely banning sex discrimination to appropriating money for women's sports teams, punishing sexual misconduct, scholarships, etc.
The only reason that Title IX is a bit "roundabout" in terms of its prosecution parameters is the very same reason that it was enacted in the first place--anti-feminism. It is important to realize that rights for women are civil rights, and the amendment is in place because our nation hasn't always been so forward-thinking.

 

[jhmmd]

Also ERAS asks about misdemeanors, so if you were to take this to a court of law there's a chance you could be convicted and it would come back to haunt you later. I disagree with the "get a lawyer" advice. Take your punishment, let things settle down, report the IA, and explain it as best you can (in terms of what you learned from it). There's no need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[KnightDoc]

Also ERAS asks about misdemeanors, so if you were to take this to a court of law there's a chance you could be convicted and it would come back to haunt you later. I disagree with the "get a lawyer" advice. Take your punishment, let things settle down, report the IA, and explain it as best you can (in terms of what you learned from it). There's no need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I dunno. Does ERAS matter if OP never makes it that far? If a sexual assault IA is not a mountain, I don't know what is. Is it really going to get better over time?

 

[theendisnigh]

The school has decided that the hearsay witness statements were enough. Her medical records show zero indication of assault. She claimed bleeding and pain and then in her medical reports it says there was no bleeding and she said in her chief complaint that she had zero pain. The school has taken witness statement to attest to how drunk she was but each witness had a different story and most of them said she drank before coming to my party. How much she drank at the party is a question mark. Some say she didn’t drink at my party and some say she downed half a handle. I never saw her drink at my party. The evidence was little to none. Witness statements were all over the place. I obviously cannot post the investigation report due to privacy laws but I can assure you it doesn’t add up however the college has such a low burden of proof that witness accounts whether factual or not were enough to find me responsible. No assault took place and every physical piece of evidence shows that.

Drunk people are incapacitated and cannot give legal consent.

 

[jhmmd]

I dunno. 1. Does ERAS matter if OP never makes it that far? 2. If a sexual assault IA is not a mountain, I don't know what is. 3. Is it really going to get better over time?

1. I think you answered your own question
2. Agreed
3. All depends on what the OP does about it

 

[xffan624]

The school has decided that the hearsay witness statements were enough. Her medical records show zero indication of assault. She claimed bleeding and pain and then in her medical reports it says there was no bleeding and she said in her chief complaint that she had zero pain. The school has taken witness statement to attest to how drunk she was but each witness had a different story and most of them said she drank before coming to my party. How much she drank at the party is a question mark. Some say she didn’t drink at my party and some say she downed half a handle. I never saw her drink at my party. The evidence was little to none. Witness statements were all over the place. I obviously cannot post the investigation report due to privacy laws but I can assure you it doesn’t add up however the college has such a low burden of proof that witness accounts whether factual or not were enough to find me responsible. No assault took place and every physical piece of evidence shows that.

If you ever make it to the medical field, you will understand these apparent contradictions have no relevance to whether a sexual assault happened or not. Medical records are frequently inaccurate and many sexual assaults don't show any physical evidence.

 

[Osminog]

To be fair though, Title IX has a lot of redeeming qualities and is in place for a reason. It has evolved from purely banning sex discrimination to appropriating money for women's sports teams, punishing sexual misconduct, scholarships, etc.
The only reason that Title IX is a bit "roundabout" in terms of its prosecution parameters is the very same reason that it was enacted in the first place--anti-feminism. It is important to realize that rights for women are civil rights, and the amendment is in place because our nation hasn't always been so forward-thinking.

Sexual assault is a serious crime that can come with decades of prison time. If someone is accused of sexual assault, they should be promptly reported to the local authorities so they can be booked and questioned, and the district prosecutor can decide whether criminal charges are worth pursuing. If the evidence is too weak and the prosecutor declines to press charges, then the accused must be presumed innocent. The accused shouldn’t be subjected to amateur investigations by university officials and extrajudicial hearings with low burdens of proof.

If feminism is centered on protecting civil liberties, as it should be, then it should also be concerned about the civil liberties of those accused of crimes by government-subsidized private universities. It’s better to let a guilty person get away with sexual assault than to ruin an innocent person’s life over a sexual assault that he never committed.

 

[jhmmd]

1. Sexual assault is a serious crime that can come with decades of prison time. If someone is accused of sexual assault, they should be promptly reported to the local authorities so they can be booked and questioned, and the district prosecutor can decide whether criminal charges are worth pursuing. If the evidence is too weak and the prosecutor declines to press charges, then the accused must be presumed innocent. The accused shouldn’t be subjected to amateur investigations by university officials and extrajudicial hearings with low burdens of proof.

2. If feminism is centered on protecting civil liberties, as it should be, then it should also be concerned about the civil liberties of those accused of crimes by government-subsidized private universities. It’s better to let a guilty person get away with sexual assault than to ruin an innocent person’s life over a sexual assault that he never committed.

1. Agree with #1 with a caveat--prosecutors don't bring charges against people, victims do. Prosecutors simply suggest charges and advocate for them to be enacted. And although yes, in this country you are innocent until proven guilty, it is often the case with sexual assault that
a. Victims are afraid to press charges in the first place
b. Victims are afraid to testify, therefore
c. All allegations should be taken very, very seriously. It is shameful and embarassing to press sexual assault charges--no one would want to do this if they didn't have a good reason to do so, which is the reason why many cases end up outside the statue of limitations. So people shouldn't take allegations of sexual abuse/assault lightheartedly.

2. Agree with #2 with one caveat--as I'm sure you know, Title IX covers govt.-subsidized public universities. The main point is that they receive funding from the govt. If the govt does not fund a univeristy, then I'm not sure that it should be subject to Title IX rules, in order to not interfere with the invisible hand of the free market.

 

[Proudfather94]

So I guess the consensus is to either get a lawyer and get the ia removed or to go to a foreign medical school. I wonder how hard it would be to get rid of the ia with a lawyer though like how hard would the university fight it.

 

[candbgirl]

So I guess the consensus is to either get a lawyer and get the ia removed or to go to a foreign medical school. I wonder how hard it would be to get rid of the ia with a lawyer though like how hard would the university fight it.

I can’t believe there isn’t some other person that OP can appeal to. Just one appeal for such a serious accusation is sort of unreal. If OP firmly believes (and I think he does) he is innocent he needs to pursue it. It might take time and money but besides just giving up what else can he do. Such a difficult and life altering situation. On both sides.

 

[Goro]

I can’t believe there isn’t some other person that OP can appeal to. Just one appeal for such a serious accusation is sort of unreal. If OP firmly believes (and I think he does) he is innocent he needs to pursue it. It might take time and money but besides just giving up what else can he do. Such a difficult and life altering situation. On both sides.

Typical appeal chain of command should be College Dean -> Provost/CEO/Chancellor/President

 

[candbgirl]

Typical appeal chain of command should be College Dean -> Provost/CEO/Chancellor/President

I get the impression he’s not pursuing those options. I’m probably (hopefully) wrong but he specifically asked “ I am not sure what to do now. I graduate on time and I get my degree. Any advice on how to move forward?”.

 

[Flareicus]

If OP wants to go to a US MD/DO school, the only option is to have the Title IX conviction expunged. I can't see any scenario where the application isn't DOA with a sexual assault record on it.

If he isn't formally convicted of a misdemeanor/felony, the only other viable path I can see is playing the Carribean coin flip with the understanding that if he loses, he will be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no career path.

 

[MD-PhD-NonTrad]

If OP wants to go to a US MD/DO school, the only option is to have the Title IX conviction expunged. I can't see any scenario where the application isn't DOA with a sexual assault record on it.

If he isn't formally convicted of a misdemeanor/felony, the only other viable path I can see is playing the Carribean coin flip with the understanding that if he loses, he will be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no career path.

**NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR GOING CARIBBEAN**

Can Caribbean MD grads that can’t match work in industry? Like, they still have an MD degree just with no license to practice, so they can work in pharmaceutical sales or consulting or advising and still make decent (~$120K) money, right?

 

[KnightDoc]

**NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR GOING CARIBBEAN**

Can Caribbean MD grads that can’t match work in industry? Like, they still have an MD degree just with no license to practice, so they can work in pharmaceutical sales or consulting or advising and still make decent (~$120K) money, right?

Not really. There was a spirited discussion on this very topic on another thread a while back. Big money corporate jobs for MDs are almost always for those with experience, although some posters claimed they were exceptions to this rule.

Jobs like sales are available to anyone who is good at selling, so, Caribbean MDs wouldn't be a plus or a minus there. The point is that any job that requires an MD, other than medical intern, generally also requires experience as a practicing, licensed physician. An MD without that does not make you a valuable medical consultant or advisor to a corporation.

To the extent it happens at all, it's hotshots at places like Stanford going into biotech or VC. It's certainly not people who could not get into a US program who then cannot match! If this were not the case, the bias against Caribbean would not be so vitriolic, since there would be a reasonable, viable off-ramp for everyone who doesn't match!!

 

[Gambino.]

**NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR GOING CARIBBEAN**

Can Caribbean MD grads that can’t match work in industry? Like, they still have an MD degree just with no license to practice, so they can work in pharmaceutical sales or consulting or advising and still make decent (~$120K) money, right?

Aren't non-clinical opportunities that pay well few and far between? I feel like I see a post either on here or on reddit almost daily asking for guidance on this and most of the time the replies are overwhelmingly poor regarding possibilities.

At Ross we even just had to complete a multi hour Title IX training course and have had students expelled for things like this so even if he were to go carib, it'd likely have to be at a non-big 3 school, which at that point, it'd be better off for him to do something else with his life.