Serious: Psychiatry Residency Programs to Steer Clear Of

[NontradCA]

Stay away from Arrowhead if you have options.

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[hallowmann]

Stay away from Arrowhead if you have options.

I feel I've heard the same of all the residencies at Arrowhead, not just Psych.

 

[geri4lyfe]

This video resonates with me. It’s like Dr. Z knows what the toxic environment is like at SIUH

 

[gucci2020]

Clinical exposure at Staten island Univ Hospital sucks. The lectures and curriculum suck. The worst part is the administration and department politics. Make sure you don't even accidentally rank Staten Island University Hospital.

 

[Mass Effect]

This video resonates with me. It’s like Dr. Z knows what the toxic environment is like at SIUH

The same Dr. Z who gave a controversial, at best, description of watching what happens during abortions to prop up the pro-life crowd. He lost his credibility with me and many others just from that so I'm hardly about watching his take on this topic.

 

[Mass Effect]

Clinical exposure at Staten island Univ Hospital sucks. The lectures and curriculum suck. The worst part is the administration and department politics. Make sure you don't even accidentally rank Staten Island University Hospital.

Did you create an account just to bump this old thread and bash your program in the vaguest of ways? If you want to warn others, a little context may help.

 

[gucci2020]

Current residents have tried to warn MS4's and med students about Staten Island University Hospital's psychiatry residency. The backlash by the administration is severe, with painful retaliation and threats from the boomer Chairman of the department. Resident's complaints about the program, which include the deficient curriculum, limited rotations, heavy workload, ect. , are ignored by the Chairman and PD. This program is falling apart.

 

[Mass Effect]

Current residents have tried to warn MS4's and med students about Staten Island University Hospital's psychiatry residency. The backlash by the administration is severe, with painful retaliation and threats from the boomer Chairman of the department. Resident's complaints about the program, which include the deficient curriculum, limited rotations, heavy workload, ect. , are ignored by the Chairman and PD. This program is falling apart.

Still vague. The problem with threads like this is that anyone can post and no one has any idea who actually knows or doesn't know anything about the programs they're bashing. For instance, how do we know you're not someone trying to get into SIUH by bashing it in the above way to get others to rank it lower? It's unlikely, but the point is anyone can say anything.

If you really are trying just to warn people, then give details.

Backlash is severe with painful retaliation? What does that mean? What kind of backlash, what kind of painful retaliation?

Deficient curriculum? How is it deficient? What's missing/on the low end? Is it psychotherapy? Psychopharm? Reduced didactic time? What about it is deficient?

Limited rotations? What does this even mean? They're required by ACGME to provide certain rotations, so what do you mean it's "limited"? Or do you mean the patient population lacks diversity? Or do you mean you have to travel for some of the rotations? You need details here.

Heavy workload? How is it heavy? This is pretty subjective so examples would help. Are you working 50 hours a week and seeing a ton of patients in that time? Are you working 80 hours a week? Are you on-call every weekend? Are you doing 3 months of night float? Is it the patient volume that's heavy? What about the workload is heavy?

Without details, your claims are pretty generic and could have been made by anyone.

 

[gucci2020]

If you really are trying just to warn people, then give details.

Backlash is severe with painful retaliation?

Deficient curriculum?

Limited rotations? What does this even mean? They're required by ACGME to provide certain rotations, so what do you mean it's "limited"?

Heavy workload?

Without details, your claims are pretty generic and could have been made by anyone.

I don't think any MS4 who has rotated at SIUH would have your confusions. You're an attending, so you're not the intended audience. Your questions above reveal that you're either playing dumb, or that you are trying to get residents in trouble at a program headed by a boomer Chairman known to be malignant, ect. Why would you want residents to get doxxed?

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't think any MS4 who has rotated at SIUH would have your confusions. You're an attending, so you're not the intended audience. Your questions above reveal that you're either playing dumb, or that you are trying to get residents in trouble at a program headed by a boomer Chairman known to be malignant, ect. Why would you want residents to get doxxed?

Any MS4 who rotated at SIUH likely wouldn't need your warnings, if it's as bad as it is. The rest of your post is a cop-out. If you want credibility around your warnings about SIUH, you need to actually, you know, give a legit warning. Anyone can say any of the things you listed about any program in the country. Doesn't mean any of it is true.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Hmm, 90% of chairmen are boomers still and the whole subject line of this discussion suffers from the Yelp syndrome. The people most likely to voice an opinion are pissed off, or invested in looking good. The truth is always in between those two poles and since the poles are at opposite ends, this isn't very useful for people to make informed decisions. I will say that bashing a particular program based on a very bad experience has some value to applicants, but there are also a lot of trainees who struggle through this difficult process who are not as happy as they have been before and aren't used to having shortcomings pointed out when they have excelled all of their lives.

Going through undergrad with enough of a GPA to get into medical school is hard until you go to medical school and are compared to everyone else who did the same. Then finishing medical school and entering post graduate medical education and realizing how protected you where in clinical rotations as a medical student is a sobering experience. The same is true of the transition from training to practice. "Malignancy" does exist, but there is also a final transition from post graduate training to practice and it isn't easy either. We all spend lots of time contemplating the right balance while pushing maturation. Is this a fair criticism? Is this a real deficit? Is remediation in order or are we being too loose or too hard?

Having a social media forum for anyone who was slapped a little by their mentors will look a little ugly if the programs care about their products they are tasked with creating. Again, some PDs may be a little slap happy, but I don't personally know of many like this. None of this process is easy, we do need to be vigilant that we work hard to make it as easy as possible, but it will always be a hard process in my opinion if we do it well.

 

[meow1985]

Look, the current chairman/PD is toxic for the whole department and is bad for the trainees, patients, and employees at all levels. He's intoxicated with power. The Northwell executives and decision making board should fire him and replace him with someone from outside of this system. Unless the chair is fired and removed, his replacement with the APD will be only cosmetic, with him operating in the background.

...How? PDs don't make any decisions except in regards to residency education. It's medical directors who have the real power in terms of day to day operations, with their decisions influencing attendings, nurses, and everyone else. Is the PD also the medical director? Only in that case would this make any sense.

It is also not uncommon for APDs to be recent residency grads. The rationale is that they are closer to the resident experience.

 

[moto_za]

University of Arizona Psychiatry fired a PGY-2 a few weeks ago. Open spot, was notified via PM

 

[BiscoDisco]

University of Arizona Psychiatry fired a PGY-2 a few weeks ago. Open spot, was notified via PM

Any idea why?

 

[meow1985]

University of Arizona Psychiatry fired a PGY-2 a few weeks ago. Open spot, was notified via PM

Is this a good or bad thing?

In my opinion, one resident getting fired in neither here nor there. If it's a pattern, that's not good - for the residency, not necessarily for applicants (bear with me, I will explain below). If it's just the one time, all it is is good news for someone seeking a PGY2 spot.

Based on discussions with staff and leadership at my own residency, residencies don't *like* firing people, because that shows that there is something wrong with their selection process. (I.e. what, you can't select candidates who'll actually be able to do the job?) Also, if too many residents get fired in a short time, the program can be put on notice/probation/whatever with ACGME.

About a decade ago, my residency had 2-3 firings in short succession, and now they are *still* doing all they can to give people chances. They also haven't fired anyone since, and they're a lot more cautious in ranking candidates who they sense might be a liability.

 

[Mass Effect]

Is this a good or bad thing?

In my opinion, one resident getting fired in neither here nor there. If it's a pattern, that's not good - for the residency, not necessarily for applicants (bear with me, I will explain below). If it's just the one time, all it is is good news for someone seeking a PGY2 spot.

Based on discussions with staff and leadership at my own residency, residencies don't *like* firing people, because that shows that there is something wrong with their selection process. (I.e. what, you can't select candidates who'll actually be able to do the job?) Also, if too many residents get fired in a short time, the program can be put on notice/probation/whatever with ACGME.

About a decade ago, my residency had 2-3 firings in short succession, and now they are *still* doing all they can to give people chances. They also haven't fired anyone since, and they're a lot more cautious in ranking candidates who they sense might be a liability.

It's neither a good or bad thing. It's difficult to fire a resident with good reason, but frankly some people shouldn't be doctors/psychiatrists. I don't know the details surrounding this case, but I have yet to hear of a termination that wasn't warranted.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It's neither a good or bad thing. It's difficult to fire a resident with good reason, but frankly some people shouldn't be doctors/psychiatrists. I don't know the details surrounding this case, but I have yet to hear of a termination that wasn't warranted.

Amen! There are probably 100 people who graduate and shouldn't for every one that is wrongfully terminated.

 

[heysexylady]

Not true. Many residents are fired for little to no reason especially if you are part of a non union program and gme is weak. What recourse does a resident have of a pd is out to fire you....not many lawyers are familiar with the intricacies of Resident training programs. PD just has to create a paper trail (regardless if it is true or not) ...that's it.

 

[Mass Effect]

Not true. Many residents are fired for little to no reason especially if you are part of a non union program and gme is weak. What recourse does a resident have of a pd is out to fire you....not many lawyers are familiar with the intricacies of Resident training programs. PD just has to create a paper trail (regardless if it is true or not) ...that's it.

This is false and I think it's irresponsible to put this out there when it's not true. Please cite a case where a resident was fired "for little to no reason" or a PD has created a false paper trail.

There are lawyers that take on clients nationally and specialize specifically in medical training and medical licensing. There are other lawyers who specialize in professional licensing, which includes medical, legal, nursing, and others.

 

[splik]

This is false and I think it's irresponsible to put this out there when it's not true. Please cite a case where a resident was fired "for little to no reason" or a PD has created a false paper trail.

seriously it happens all the time. it's not common, but it definitely happens. I am familiar with such cases. It would be exceedingly rare in psychiatry but in some other specialties it is not uncommon.

 

[Mass Effect]

seriously it happens all the time. it's not common, but it definitely happens. I am familiar with such cases. It would be exceedingly rare in psychiatry but in some other specialties it is not uncommon.

I have yet to hear of a case and I have yet to see someone else mention a case beyond vague statement that it happens.

 

[heysexylady]

This is false and I think it's irresponsible to put this out there when it's not true. Please cite a case where a resident was fired "for little to no reason" or a PD has created a false paper trail.

There are lawyers that take on clients nationally and specialize specifically in medical training and medical licensing. There are other lawyers who specialize in professional licensing, which includes medical, legal, nursing, and others.

This often occurs with females, immigrants and people of color.... usually use professionalism bs to get them. Let me not get started on the racist sexist bs I have seen with my own eyes but was too af3to say anything.

Professionalism is a nebulous and scary way to fire people if they do not fit the culture of the institution.

I personally know of 4 incidents. One obgyn black female, one radiology black male, white female Im resident, and one south Asian psychiatry gemale. Two of the four were not able to finish their training.

Yes, there are lawyers but it is a very niche field and it depends on where the lawyer can practice.

There are dinguses everywhere.... Academic Physicians (including psychiatrist) are not
Immune to being one.

Just because you have not seen it or experienced it does not mean it is not happening. JFC.

 

[Oedipa Maas]

University of Arizona Psychiatry fired a PGY-2 a few weeks ago. Open spot, was notified via PM

Tucson or Phoenix?

 

[Mass Effect]

This often occurs with females, immigrants and people of color.... usually use professionalism bs to get them. Let me not get started on the racist sexist bs I have seen with my own eyes but was too af3to say anything.

Professionalism is a nebulous and scary way to fire people if they do not fit the culture of the institution.

I personally know of 4 incidents. One obgyn black female, one radiology black male, white female Im resident, and one south Asian psychiatry gemale. Two of the four were not able to finish their training.

Yes, there are lawyers but it is a very niche field and it depends on where the lawyer can practice.

There are dinguses everywhere.... Academic Physicians (including psychiatrist) are not
Immune to being one.

Just because you have not seen it or experienced it does not mean it is not happening. JFC.

I'm not going by what I have personally seen. I'm going by the countless stories we hear on social media, including SDN, and then an article is written about it or the court documents become available and we find the story told by the resident is a far cry from the whole truth. The most infamous of these stories is the "doctor fired for having cancer," but there are countless more. I have yet to see media around a person who was fired and had no legitimate part in it or suffered from an unwarranted consequence for a minor offense. When you hear story after story after story after story where it turns out the facts were skewed to fit a narrative of persecution and have yet to hear a story where the facts WEREN'T skewed and the person really was persecuted for minor offenses, it's hard to believe such a thing exists.

 

[meow1985]

This often occurs with females, immigrants and people of color.... usually use professionalism bs to get them. Let me not get started on the racist sexist bs I have seen with my own eyes but was too af3to say anything.

Professionalism is a nebulous and scary way to fire people if they do not fit the culture of the institution.

I personally know of 4 incidents. One obgyn black female, one radiology black male, white female Im resident, and one south Asian psychiatry gemale. Two of the four were not able to finish their training.

Yes, there are lawyers but it is a very niche field and it depends on where the lawyer can practice.

There are dinguses everywhere.... Academic Physicians (including psychiatrist) are not
Immune to being one.

Just because you have not seen it or experienced it does not mean it is not happening. JFC.

Racist, sexist bs is in fact real and I don't want to discount that, but when it comes to all-out firing for those reasons?

Case in point, my program has definitely had women passed over for hirings and promotions, though that's slowly getting better, and women have been dinged for professionalism when in fact the issue was difficulty balancing new motherhood and work (sometimes due to purely biological factors such as breastfeeding), when the person was too vocal in pushing back against attendings' opinions, or when the person was too loud and persistent in expressing their distress when in reality they just needed mental health support and a lot of it. Similar issues, including missing too much work due to illness, resulted in no appreciable consequences in men. But no one got close to being fired. Granted, this is just one program and maybe I don't know everything about the situations of the people involved.

But to reiterate, the rare megalomaniac PD aside, programs don't like firing residents. They'll need to find someone to do the work, it's hard on the other residents who need to step up and do more than they're already doing, and it looks bad to the ACGME.