Serious: Psychiatry Residency Programs to Steer Clear Of

[pbdoctor1]

I was on the fence about blaming toxic residents as being harmful because there are so many more residents but these "rare" malignant psych programs discussed previously in threads on SDN are significantly more harmful for medical applicants. This recent article came out discussing toxic programs and PDs mandating hand-selected mental health evaluators to intentionally diagnose "disruptive residents" with a pseudo psychiatric disorder. It shows how extreme some toxic programs have become by pushing anyone who is burned out or potentially"disruptive" towards suicide by adding to the stigma of mental illness especially in medical licensure and destroying future careers. This reaffirms what other SDN members discussed previously that this is a common tactic in malignant psych program and is more commonly broadly utilized technique between toxic program directors. It is another reason to "steer clear" of a malignant program because it can jeopardize or end a physician's career at any time during training. The harm is too much for an applicant to risk.


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[MacDonaldTriad]

Pain became the fifth vital sign and now we have an opiate epidemic. Now we are forced to implement wellness measures and although the above sounds over the top, please understand that it is a requirement to implement "wellness" programs especially mental health oriented interventions. If someone had no objective signs of problems and refused to participate, fine with me. We only have to have it in place. Some may find anything intrusive and threatening, others may be thankful and appreciative. There is no winning this one.

 

[Mass Effect]

Pain became the fifth vital sign and now we have an opiate epidemic. Now we are forced to implement wellness measures and although the above sounds over the top, please understand that it is a requirement to implement "wellness" programs especially mental health oriented interventions. If someone had no objective signs of problems and refused to participate, fine with me. We only have to have it in place. Some may find anything intrusive and threatening, others may be thankful and appreciative. There is no winning this one.

Agreed, but there should be ways to do this without it forever tarnishing a doctor's licensing application. Getting help for mental health issues should not be reportable to the medical board. Making it reportable serves as a deterrent for physicians who are suffering and is the exact opposite of "wellness."

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Yes, and if I ever have any say in State Law, I will agree.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yes, and if I ever have any say in State Law, I will agree.

You do have a say. We all have a say. Just because we're not politicians doesn't mean we're voiceless. State boards need to stop asking the question. We need to stop emphasizing and propagating the stigma of physicians seeking mental health treatment. I don't know the answer, but as long as we're passive, it will continue and a new generation of doctors will face the same challenges with a small minority standing up against it.

 

[ridethecliche]

I've heard from a few places that everything geisinger is best avoided if possible.

 

[Psych3003]

Yikes! Those poor residents. :'(

On the other hand scutwork.com is amazing. I'm enjoying all these juicy deets hahahaha.

I am a recent graduate and completely disagree with that review. I had a great work life balance and training.

 

[futuredo32]

Avoid Wayne State (Sinai Grace/DMC) in Detroit Michigan. I will name the program. Do an intern year if needed in lieu of ranking them or transfer elsewhere (one did) your PGY2 year.

 

[pampiniformplexus]

Avoid Wayne State (Sinai Grace/DMC) in Detroit Michigan. I will name the program. Do an intern year if needed in lieu of ranking them or transfer elsewhere (one did) your PGY2 year.

I saw your message in another thread. You stated:
I started my residency at St Mary Mercy when it was a brand new program and left due to unfortunate changes which has now been corrected. I did my last two years at DMC(Sinai, Wayne State). If anyone wants input about either program please feel free to pm.. I graduated residency 2015

I have 2 questions for you:
1- How do you know the current status of the program if you graduated 4.5 years ago?
2- Past behavior is the best predictor of the future behavior. What were the circumstances that made you transfer from St. Mary to WSU? (Maybe the problem was you?)

If you want to help others, please include more details. A program that did not satisfy your needs is not necessarily a "program to steer clear of".

 

[WisNeuro]

I feel like there needs to be a counter thread. "Applicants/practitioners to steer clear of."

 

[futuredo32]

I saw your message in another thread. You stated:
I started my residency at St Mary Mercy when it was a brand new program and left due to unfortunate changes which has now been corrected. I did my last two years at DMC(Sinai, Wayne State). If anyone wants input about either program please feel free to pm.. I graduated residency 2015

I have 2 questions for you:
1- How do you know the current status of the program if you graduated 4.5 years ago?
2- Past behavior is the best predictor of the future behavior. What were the circumstances that made you transfer from St. Mary to WSU? (Maybe the problem was you?)

If you want to help others, please include more details. A program that did not satisfy your needs is not necessarily a "program to steer clear of".

I graduated in 2015 so it was 3 and a halfish years ago.
1. I kept in touch with some of the residents who did stay as well as an attending at St Mary's. I also know residents from Wayne who are currently in the program.
2. The problem wasn't me. Initially St. Mary's was going to be used as the hospital for the non-psych rotations and addictions. They were a brand new residency. Ideally St Joseph Mercy (in the same hospital network) would have been the hospital to have the program but they were capped, so the plan was that we would do the non-psych rotations plus addictions (great addiction attendings there) and they just changed the outpatient clinic's name to St Mary's. We were the initial class and it was the same year the ACGME came out with the rule that a PGY 1 couldn't work without a PGY2 on the premises. Thus we did outpatient 6 months after the non psych rotations and it was great. After the program got their ACGME accreditation the DME said that we would not be rotating at St Joseph Mercy. St Joseph Mercy was an ideal place for a psych residency and they asked St Mary's for funding to hire an extra psychiatrist or two so they could properly train residents. St Mary's said no and thus we were to do the remainder of our training at St Mary's. At that time (and it is not the case now) the psychiatrists on the inpatient/consult service didn't allow residents from other fields to rotate through the psych unit. They wanted to rush through their inpatients and consults and get back to their private practices. They definitely didn't want to teach us. The PD quit because she was so upset that the DME lied to her (she believed they knew all along that we wouldn't be going to St Joseph Mercy and waited until they got their ACGME accreditation and she felt that she lied to us during our interview so she abruptly left and we didn't have a PD for months and it was rough. I emailed the PD from Wayne and explained the situation, it turns out one of their PGY2s didn't pass USMLE step 2 and had to sit out a year so they needed a PGY 3 but acted like they were doing me a favor. St Marys got a new PD who has made great changes to the program and it was too late for me to stay. I only post that Wayne/Sinai/DMC is a malignant program because I wish someone had told me. The former PD (who left when I was starting) sold the program as if it was heaven. It was hell. It's beyond a program to steer clear of. Sit out, do a transitional year. I am thankful I was only there two years, I couldn't have survived 4 years at Wayne State.
I did a rotation at Henry Ford and it seemed good. But I was only there for 4 weeks so I can't say it's overall a great program or not.

 

[pampiniformplexus]

I graduated in 2015 so it was 3 and a halfish years ago.
1. I kept in touch with some of the residents who did stay as well as an attending at St Mary's. I also know residents from Wayne who are currently in the program.
2. The problem wasn't me. Initially St. Mary's was going to be used as the hospital for the non-psych rotations and addictions. They were a brand new residency. Ideally St Joseph Mercy (in the same hospital network) would have been the hospital to have the program but they were capped, so the plan was that we would do the non-psych rotations plus addictions (great addiction attendings there) and they just changed the outpatient clinic's name to St Mary's. We were the initial class and it was the same year the ACGME came out with the rule that a PGY 1 couldn't work without a PGY2 on the premises. Thus we did outpatient 6 months after the non psych rotations and it was great. After the program got their ACGME accreditation the DME said that we would not be rotating at St Joseph Mercy. St Joseph Mercy was an ideal place for a psych residency and they asked St Mary's for funding to hire an extra psychiatrist or two so they could properly train residents. St Mary's said no and thus we were to do the remainder of our training at St Mary's. At that time (and it is not the case now) the psychiatrists on the inpatient/consult service didn't allow residents from other fields to rotate through the psych unit. They wanted to rush through their inpatients and consults and get back to their private practices. They definitely didn't want to teach us. The PD quit because she was so upset that the DME lied to her (she believed they knew all along that we wouldn't be going to St Joseph Mercy and waited until they got their ACGME accreditation and she felt that she lied to us during our interview so she abruptly left and we didn't have a PD for months and it was rough. I emailed the PD from Wayne and explained the situation, it turns out one of their PGY2s didn't pass USMLE step 2 and had to sit out a year so they needed a PGY 3 but acted like they were doing me a favor. St Marys got a new PD who has made great changes to the program and it was too late for me to stay. I only post that Wayne/Sinai/DMC is a malignant program because I wish someone had told me. The former PD (who left when I was starting) sold the program as if it was heaven. It was hell. It's beyond a program to steer clear of. Sit out, do a transitional year. I am thankful I was only there two years, I couldn't have survived 4 years at Wayne State.
I did a rotation at Henry Ford and it seemed good. But I was only there for 4 weeks so I can't say it's overall a great program or not.

Only you know what it is like to be you. I can only do deductive inference. I reviewed some of your old posts:
Board Certification in Psychiatry

Anyone freaking out about initial cert boards?

Anyone freaking out about initial cert boards?

Would you still choose psych?

With all due respect, you sound like having a general dissatisfaction with life: complaining about your choice of psychiatry, friendships, complaining about your job, attendings, co-residents, board exams, transportation, previous mentors, and etc. You generally sound like "a victim". I also noticed that you have a tendency to externalize the problem without taking much responsibility. Don't let irritation take over. I think you will be able to identify the underlying cause of your irritation.

My recommendation for the people who read this thread, especially the applicants:
I have a disclosure: I am a Wayne resident. We are not the best program in the country but we are dedicated team of residents who put their best effort to advocate for their patients in the inner city Detroit. The variety of pathology is unparalleled. The faculty and residents are dedicated to the care for the underserved. We all try to leave the program better than we found it.

Please take advice-including this one-with a grain of salt. Everybody has their own agenda.

If you have any questions about the program, please do not hesitate to pm me.

Have a good weekend!

 

[futuredo32]

Only you know what it is like to be you. I can only do deductive inference. I reviewed some of your old posts:
Board Certification in Psychiatry

Anyone freaking out about initial cert boards?

Anyone freaking out about initial cert boards?

Would you still choose psych?

With all due respect, you sound like having a general dissatisfaction with life: complaining about your choice of psychiatry, friendships, complaining about your job, attendings, co-residents, board exams, transportation, previous mentors, and etc. You generally sound like "a victim". I also noticed that you have a tendency to externalize the problem without taking much responsibility. Don't let irritation take over. I think you will be able to identify the underlying cause of your irritation.

My recommendation for the people who read this thread, especially the applicants:
I have a disclosure: I am a Wayne resident. We are not the best program in the country but we are dedicated team of residents who put their best effort to advocate for their patients in the inner city Detroit. The variety of pathology is unparalleled. The faculty and residents are dedicated to the care for the underserved. We all try to leave the program better than we found it.

Please take advice-including this one-with a grain of salt. Everybody has their own agenda.

If you have any questions about the program, please do not hesitate to pm me.

Have a good weekend!

It's quite inappropriate to attempt to criticize me based on a few posts. I did have trouble passing the boards and I've made no secret that I regret choosing psych and many people worry if they passed their board exam.
You are at 1 program. I did a medicine year, and spent 2 years at 2 different psych residency programs so I have more to compare to. During my pgy 4 at Wayne many attendings left because they were unhappy. I base my opinion of Wayne not only on my experience there but also on information I have heard from current residents.

 

[Theseus]

I've heard from a few places that everything geisinger is best avoided if possible.

Why is that?

 

[PsychApp777]

Some more horrendous reviews of Staten Island University Hospital. It looks like this is a pattern:

Staten Island University Hospital - Northwell Health (formerly NSLIJHS) | Scutwork by Student Doctor Network

Scutwork from Student Doctor Network | Insights on residency programs from students and residents who have been there.

www.scutwork.com

 

[mistermahdy]

I'm a current resident at WSU and I gotta say I disagree strongly that we're malignant and should be avoided. There has been some staff turn over, but we've gotten quite a few quality attendings and new hires. There were some concerns at the VA before I started, but those have been completely fixed. If you're saying we should be avoided because of the call schedule, we make it clear on interview day that we're call heavy. My coresidents are fantastic, we have great benefits which overshadow the other DMC programs.

 

[yanks26dmb]

Some more horrendous reviews of Staten Island University Hospital. It looks like this is a pattern:

Staten Island University Hospital - Northwell Health (formerly NSLIJHS) | Scutwork by Student Doctor Network

Scutwork from Student Doctor Network | Insights on residency programs from students and residents who have been there.

www.scutwork.com

This place is awful. Interviewed here. You'd be better off not matching and reapplying than spending four miserable years here.

 

[Mass Effect]

This place is awful. Interviewed here. You'd be better off not matching and reapplying than spending four miserable years here.

That's a very strong reaction with questionable advice and no facts offered.

 

[MedMan80]

Some more horrendous reviews of Staten Island University Hospital. It looks like this is a pattern:

Staten Island University Hospital - Northwell Health (formerly NSLIJHS) | Scutwork by Student Doctor Network

Scutwork from Student Doctor Network | Insights on residency programs from students and residents who have been there.

www.scutwork.com

For what its worth i've heard the residents are pretty spoiled there, have some cush inpatient months. Can't attest to the rest of the program though..

 

[yanks26dmb]

That's a very strong reaction with questionable advice and no facts offered.

The facts are laid out in scut works. Obviously I am not doing residency there so anything I can offer is also second hand information, but suffice to say I've heard similar from a resident there. This place is bottom of the barrel.

 

[mistermahdy]

The facts are laid out in scut works. Obviously I am not doing residency there so anything I can offer is also second hand information, but suffice to say I've heard similar from a resident there. This place is bottom of the barrel.

?? There are only two reviews from 2001 and 2003 from scutwork and they're not terrible. Everyone has different things they want In a program, and based on the way you phrase things you seem to be looking to elicit a response more than anything. Go troll else where

 

[yanks26dmb]

?? There are only two reviews from 2001 and 2003 from scutwork and they're not terrible. Everyone has different things they want In a program, and based on the way you phrase things you seem to be looking to elicit a response more than anything. Go troll else where

There are four, all terrible, and all from within the last 12 months...

 

[mistermahdy]

There are four, all terrible, and all from within the last 12 months...

PM me the link please

 

[Mass Effect]

The facts are laid out in scut works. Obviously I am not doing residency there so anything I can offer is also second hand information, but suffice to say I've heard similar from a resident there. This place is bottom of the barrel.

So based on scutworks and second hand information, you're telling people they're better off not matching? That's pretty irresponsible, imo.

 

[samac]

This thread definitely didn't go the way I expected.

 

[geri4lyfe]

Some more horrendous reviews of Staten Island University Hospital. It looks like this is a pattern:

Staten Island University Hospital - Northwell Health (formerly NSLIJHS) | Scutwork by Student Doctor Network

Scutwork from Student Doctor Network | Insights on residency programs from students and residents who have been there.

www.scutwork.com

I'm currently a resident at SIUH. I cannot emphasize strongly enough how malignant the PD is and how this toxicity percolates throughout the department. The PD won't tell you that five attendings have left in the past few months: the director of addiction, the CL director, another attending who was working in addiction (and had an underutilized expertise in eating disorders), a new attending, and an inpatient attending (who was involved in QI). Attendings are voting with their feet. Learn from this. Residents (except those who are suck ups ) are miserable. There were several accurate, critical reviews by other current residents that have been removed probably after the PD and his proxies saw them and lost their $&^% and complained. This program is among the worst in the country. The curriculum/didactics couldnt be worse. The workload on faculty and the PD's capricious demands on them to fill empty slots during "protected time" (when he decides to no-show) prevents them from teaching. The rotations just aren't educational. The PD has hired a recent graduate, fresh out of fellowship, as his APD in an effort to consolidate his power. Your first two years will be mis spent.

 

[geri4lyfe]

For what its worth i've heard the residents are pretty spoiled there, have some cush inpatient months. Can't attest to the rest of the program though..

You don't know what you're writing about. The inpatient months during your first two years are the definition of drudgery. Talk with the nurses and the PCAs and the people who actually work on the inpatient units, people who witness the poor care. It's soul crushing, something out of a horror story. The Justice Center should be called by the clinical staff and other mandated reporters, family members, and patients. Someone should do an investigation of the "care" patients receive on the inpatient ward, Geraldo-style. For the record, the only people who are spoiled are the suck ups, identifiable by their lack of knowledge which is directly correlated to their closeness with the PD.

 

[MedMan80]

You don't know what you're writing about. The inpatient months during your first two years are the definition of drudgery. Talk with the nurses and the PCAs and the people who actually work on the inpatient units, people who witness the poor care. It's soul crushing, something out of a horror story. The Justice Center should be called by the clinical staff and other mandated reporters, family members, and patients. Someone should do an investigation of the "care" patients receive on the inpatient ward, Geraldo-style. For the record, the only people who are spoiled are the suck ups, identifiable by their lack of knowledge which is directly correlated to their closeness with the PD.

I've received first hand info from an attending, it is CUSH from what other programs are doing. What sort of patient numbers are you hearing?

 

[PsychApp777]

I've received first hand info from an attending, it is CUSH from what other programs are doing. What sort of patient numbers are you hearing?

To be fair, what you have is second hand info, as compared to the first hand info possessed by geri4lyfe.

 

[downwithDTB]

I've received first hand info from an attending, it is CUSH from what other programs are doing. What sort of patient numbers are you hearing?

Not wading into this too far because I have no skin in the game... but 1) patient numbers only very weakly correlate with workload. 5 patients on a high documentation, highly violent, medically and psychiatrically ill unit with big documentation burden, expectations of unit management and minimal dispo support can be twice the work of a highly supported 12 with a low turnover, low acuity, low documentation unit 2) attending perceptions are not always accurate and they have bias 3) the posters first complaint was terrible care, not excessive work, I doubt an attending would admit that they were providing relatively inhumane care. 4) there will always be worse programs that take advantage of the fact that residents on visas can be abused with minimal reprocussions because they can't speak up. This doesn't mean that programs with primarily non-visa residents can't be relatively abusive or unsupportive. I'd be curious to know exactly what programs this residency is cush compared to.

All of that said, I have no knowledge of whether or not this is a good program. I simply wouldn't take the word of an attending.

 

[WisNeuro]

To be fair, what you have is second hand info, as compared to the first hand info possessed by geri4lyfe.

Just how much credence do we put into accounts that join SDN just to bash a program with hyperbolic ramblings?

 

[Monocles]

Just how much credence do we put into accounts that join SDN just to bash a program with hyperbolic ramblings?

Neutral observer btw -- I don't know why anyone would spend the time and effort to bash programs unless said they have major beef with them... I feel like geri4lyfe is credible, and given this thread is "programs to avoid", we shouldn't be discouraging people from sharing their negative experiences.

 

[WisNeuro]

Neutral observer btw -- I don't know why anyone would spend the time and effort to bash programs unless said they have major beef with them... I feel like geri4lyfe is credible, and given this thread is "programs to avoid", we shouldn't be discouraging people from sharing their negative experiences.

I am also a neutral observer, I have no horse in this race, and I actually hate everything about NYC.

By all means, people should voice their opinions, but we should always take some with a grain of salt. We've all seen instances on both sides, bad programs, but also bad applicants who will complain about any and everything due to their own personality problems. Just not sure we should throw all of our eggs into one basket of "truth", especially when it's filled with needless hyperbole. .

 

[Mass Effect]

Neutral observer btw -- I don't know why anyone would spend the time and effort to bash programs unless said they have major beef with them... I feel like geri4lyfe is credible, and given this thread is "programs to avoid", we shouldn't be discouraging people from sharing their negative experiences.

But just because they have a major beef with them doesn't make the poster credible. Posters who show up just to bash a program are automatically suspect. They're likely not a troll making stuff up and likely some of what they say is true, but they have such a major beef that they make an account (or change from their regular account) to come here to bash their program and nothing more. That tells me something happened certainly, but whose fault it was remains in question.

For instance, a PGY 2 resident at GWU had her face plastered all over the place with articles in the press about a doctor who lost her job because she had cancer. That was what was on the record. Then you read the actual court case and the depositions and specifics of what went down and it turned out this PGY 2 resident just happened to be diagnosed with cancer in the middle of a spectacularly incompetent performance as a resident - she missed shifts without calling in, she screwed up call shifts, she put her hands on a patient while doing a restraint completely by herself, she allegedly multiple times to various attendings and her PD. She did stuff far more egregious than what usually gets a resident terminated, but because she happened to be diagnosed with cancer, the narrative changed to her getting fired because of her cancer.

Always take these things with a grain of salt. Geri4lyfe may have some things to share, but that doesn't mean he/she doesn't have an ax to grind as well.

 

[downwithDTB]

But just because they have a major beef with them doesn't make the poster credible. Posters who show up just to bash a program are automatically suspect. They're likely not a troll making stuff up and likely some of what they say is true, but they have such a major beef that they make an account (or change from their regular account) to come here to bash their program and nothing more. That tells me something happened certainly, but whose fault it was remains in question.

For instance, a PGY 2 resident at GWU had her face plastered all over the place with articles in the press about a doctor who lost her job because she had cancer. That was what was on the record. Then you read the actual court case and the depositions and specifics of what went down and it turned out this PGY 2 resident just happened to be diagnosed with cancer in the middle of a spectacularly incompetent performance as a resident - she missed shifts without calling in, she screwed up call shifts, she put her hands on a patient while doing a restraint completely by herself, she allegedly multiple times to various attendings and her PD. She did stuff far more egregious than what usually gets a resident terminated, but because she happened to be diagnosed with cancer, the narrative changed to her getting fired because of her cancer.

Always take these things with a grain of salt. Geri4lyfe may have some things to share, but that doesn't mean he/she doesn't have an ax to grind as well.

You also make a good point. There are far more residents than PDs, residents are closer in age to risk windows for most impairing mental illnesses, are under more stress and many are untested in the workforce. Thus, based on numbers alone, there should be some spurious claims against programs.

I'm aware of another case of internet program flaming that I almost let influence my rank list and later came to acquire personal knowledge of the situation and am very glad that I did not let an anonymous grudge influence me...

 

[geri4lyfe]

There are objective indicators of a residency program’s health. One is the faculty turnover. AT SIUH, it’s very high. This department is unstable. Another indicator is the curriculum— at Staten Island University Hospital there is no curriculum. And the fact that five of our attendings have left means that the quality of didactics is going to get even worse. Another indicator is whether the administration allows a safe space for employees or trainees to bring concerns forward. Here too, the psychiatry department is in trouble — thanks to the unhinged PD/chair (both positions are held by the same incompetent person) . The PD flushes red on hearing the smallest criticism and takes everything personally. Then he goes on the offense, making $#%€ up, threatening, intimidating, residents, attendings, nurses, and other staff. There is no safe space. He’s abusive. (Other residents have mentioned that in the past he has forced residents to watch sexually inappropriate movies or read stories that have violence and other inappropriate content.)

Physically the department is an unsafe place to work. (I’m not talking about Staten Island having the highest cancer rates among NYC’ s five boroughs.) For example when violence has happened on the inpatient unit on the weekends , and employees have brought this to the attention of administration, the chairman has essentially told them to shut up and move along, changing nothing about the unsafe working conditions, putting employees at risk. The outpatient clinic also is lacking in safety. Both residents and front desk staff are at risk for being assaulted by unstable patients even though residents and staff have called for basic safety measures. There’s no emergency buttons. The chairman doesn’t care.

Another indicator is whether people have control of their own time. The chair micromanages residents’ time , demanding they speed up cases seen, spend less time interviewing patients. When residents have complained about the telepsychiatry service, he has repeatedly taken the side of northwell (the big company that owns SIUH) over residents’ objections.

If you’re interviewing at SIUH, PM me or reach out when you come to Staten Island. Talk to the residents, talk to the nursing staff, talk to the front desk staff, talk with the attendings. You’ll see how a residency program gets deformed from birth thanks to the toxic administrator who has a reputation for arrogance and incompetence.

 

[deleted736562]

People should not be discouraged from sharing their negative perceptions. Instead of stigmatizing open debate about programs, we should encourage people to post their reviews and have their say. We, as residents, are already shackled and our voices muffled - the power dynamic is not in our advantage.

For this particular program it seems like there are more than one or two individuals who have complained in the past.... Nothing stopping others from sharing positive experiences if those exist as well.

 

[Mass Effect]

No one is discouraging anyone from sharing anything they want. But impressionable med students are reading these and some of us want to make sure they're aware that not everything on here should be taken as gospel. For instance, the poster who doesn't even attend the program, but told people they're better off not matching than going there based on his interview? Questionable advice to say the least.

 

[geri4lyfe]

Other indicators that deserve mentioning:

Is the residency and hospital system one in which you or your loved ones would want to get treatment? I wouldn’t want my worst enemy treated at SIUH. They deserve better. I don’t like admitting patients to our inpatient unit or to the substance use unit. Months of internal medicine have made me dread the medical admission and hospitalization at SIUH. The fact that the administrators themselves don’t go to SIUH for their care tells you what they think about the hospital.

Another indicator: the department faculty and administration lacks diversity. We have exactly one attending who is African and one out of 16 residents who is AA. In 2019 the top three psych admins are all white. They’re about as diverse as Trump Nation. Northwell needs to get rid of the dead weight (especially the current chairman who is a notorious offender of interpersonal boundaries), find a qualified replacement, and make sure that the new program director and new chairman are different people. Doing so would help the department, training program and the local community.

 

[Mass Effect]

FYI, most people choose not to receive care at the hospital they work. That isn't an indicator of bad care.

 

[geri4lyfe]

You claim:

most people choose not to receive care at the hospital they work.

What evidence if any do you have to support that statement?

 

[NickNaylor]

Negative reports of programs can be helpful, but they should be taken with a gigantic grain of salt as they are only one person's perspective and we are almost certainly getting an incomplete story. It was amazing being a chief and seeing residents' wildly distorted perceptions of our program, much of which was simply projection or an incomplete understanding of circumstances. That's not to say that those perspectives aren't valuable, but if someone outside the program were to read their opinions about the program - opinions which were, by far, in the minority - you would think the program is a dumpster fire of malignancy. In reality, the primary issues are with those residents, not the program. There is still value to be had in hearing those perspectives, but I agree with @Mass Effect that they must be taken in their appropriate context, namely that they are only one among many perspectives about a program.

 

[Stagg737]

You claim:
What evidence if any do you have to support that statement?

This is very common. My program is at arguably "best" (certainly top 2 or 3) hospitals in our city and I don't know any fellow residents or faculty who get care here. It's very common to maintain privacy and keep personal and professional lives separate.

People should not be discouraged from sharing their negative perceptions. Instead of stigmatizing open debate about programs, we should encourage people to post their reviews and have their say. We, as residents, are already shackled and our voices muffled - the power dynamic is not in our advantage.

For this particular program it seems like there are more than one or two individuals who have complained in the past.... Nothing stopping others from sharing positive experiences if those exist as well.

I'm going to be starting an anonymous residency review thread that will be similar to the interview review thread that come up each year. I've had a few residents say they're willing to participate and I'm putting together a template to use for it. Hoping to get the thread started this week so people can start reviewing their own programs. I'll link the thread here once it's up.

 

[Mass Effect]

You claim:
What evidence if any do you have to support that statement?

Life.

If you have to ask for proof of that statement, that tells us a bit more about your level of experience. It's very common for people not to seek care at their place of employment for a multitude of reasons.

 

[downwithDTB]

Life.

If you have to ask for proof of that statement, that tells us a bit more about your level of experience. It's very common for people not to seek care at their place of employment for a multitude of reasons.

I don't think that it's a good argument in and of itself for whether a place is good or not.. but I know lots of people who stay home. Everyone does where I am (except for inpatient psych for privacy and sometimes for psychotherapy) as far as I can tell. The care is great, privacy is held sacred and residents are treated just short of VIPs. I've treated faculty and their kids and have been treated so well by our faculty. Some people will view this atmosphere as a positive. Personally, I would hate to feel like I needed to go outside of my system either for quality or privacy reasons... to me if a system can't keep your stuff private, it's a pretty terrible hospital system (sure, if you have 20 psychiatists on staff, you might want an outside one).

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't think that it's a good argument in and of itself for whether a place is good or not.. but I know lots of people who stay home. Everyone does where I am (except for inpatient psych for privacy and sometimes for psychotherapy) as far as I can tell. The care is great, privacy is held sacred and residents are treated just short of VIPs. I've treated faculty and their kids and have been treated so well by our faculty. Some people will view this atmosphere as a positive. Personally, I would hate to feel like I needed to go outside of my system either for quality or privacy reasons... to me if a system can't keep your stuff private, it's a pretty terrible hospital system (sure, if you have 20 psychiatists on staff, you might want an outside one).

Your place is in the minority, in my experience. It isn't about keeping stuff private -- all hospitals follow HIPAA. But no one in my hospital needs to know my health history and just by virtue of having to treat me, they will. It's easy enough to go down the street to another hospital where I don't know anyone and no one knows me.

 

[WisNeuro]

Your place is in the minority, in my experience. It isn't about keeping stuff private -- all hospitals follow HIPAA. But no one in my hospital needs to know my health history and just by virtue of having to treat me, they will. It's easy enough to go down the street to another hospital where I don't know anyone and no one knows me.

Exactly, I could just have my annual physicals where I work, no extra travel, even just get it done during a regular work day. But, I'd prefer some separation between my work life and personal life. I also do not get treatment where I work, and don't know many people here who do. I'm sure it happens, just not in my colleague group.

 

[geri4lyfe]

it is significant that so many attendings (at least 5 just in the past few months) have left Staten Island University Hospital. The DIRECTOR of the CL service is gone. The DIRECTOR of addiction is gone. Another attending on inpatient addiction/rehab has left. More will be leaving. If this isn't a sign of a department in crisis, i dont know what is. Just this week an executive administrative assistant/clerical associate was fired in a very cold blooded way. Applicants should stay away from SIUH.

 

[Traveler2016]

it is significant that so many attendings (at least 5 just in the past few months) have left Staten Island University Hospital. The DIRECTOR of the CL service is gone. The DIRECTOR of addiction is gone. Another attending on inpatient addiction/rehab has left. More will be leaving. If this isn't a sign of a department in crisis, i dont know what is. Just this week an executive administrative assistant/clerical associate was fired in a very cold blooded way. Applicants should stay away from SIUH.

Any thoughts on what effect the APD taking over as PD will have on the program?

 

[geri4lyfe]

Any thoughts on what effect the APD taking over as PD will have on the program?

Look, the current chairman/PD is toxic for the whole department and is bad for the trainees, patients, and employees at all levels. He's intoxicated with power. The Northwell executives and decision making board should fire him and replace him with someone from outside of this system. Unless the chair is fired and removed, his replacement with the APD will be only cosmetic, with him operating in the background.

I wouldn't assume that the current APD is qualified to take over as PD. (That said, Northwell being Northwell, SIUH will likely see the promotion of the incompetent APD to PD.) The current APD is very close with the chair/PD. The current APD is fresh from finishing an addiction fellowship and is a 2018 grad of SIUH. She has no teaching credentials, no leadership experience. I am stunned that our only child psychiatry attending has not even been considered for the position--passed over in favor of a recent alumna of SIUH. Not only is this humiliating but it looks like Northwell doesn't know what the hell to do.

What the residents and staff want: Northwell should hire an educator, someone with teaching experience and a commitment to education. Right now, the program is failing miserably in its educational responsibilities for trainees. The program would not pass ACGME scrutiny/evaluation and would be in violation or probation. It would be shut down if more residents spoke up honestly and voiced their criticisms of the program (which we talk about in our private whine sessions.)

Another update: Just this week ANOTHER attending, one of the outpatient attendings who has worked at SIUH for years, has announced she is leaving the department. That makes it SIX attendings who have left in the past few months. This department is hemorrhaging faculty.