Sabbath-observant Residencies

[goredsux]

Hi All,

I have been watching the thread and thought I would post a comment:

In response to beri-beri's experience, I agree with your sentiment. That student should have come in on Sunday and not attempted to inconvenience you. That he approached it differently though reflects on him and not his religion or his observance.

In terms of the bitter feelings others have about Sabbath observant Jews requesting "special treatment" for the Sabbath, I think a distinction needs to be drawn between residencies that offer Sabbath observant positions and those that do not. I can't understand why anyone would be bothered by a Sabbath observant Jew going to a residency program that offers such a spot. Those residency programs are free to offer accommodations to attract potential interns and residents as they see fit. Note that the "prestigious" hosiptals do not offer such Sabbath observant spots. If one's religious conviction is such that he or she does not wish to work on his or her Sabbath and thereby sacrifice the chance to train at a more prestigious program all the power to them (and more spots for me!). I can imagine that other residents in that Sabbath observant spot-offering program may feel that they have to bear an unfair burden, but they chose to go to (or rank highly) that program. As far as I am concerned a Sabbath observant spot is an accommodation similar to a favorable policy on maternity/paternity leave. For some such a policy is a priority; for others it is not.

On the other hand, once one chooses to go to a non-Sabbath observant program, then one needs to "show up when told" as others have said. Of course, it would be nice if switches could be arranged so that Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and members of any other religion, can be off on their holidays, and residents in general could be off when a family or other situation necessitates (family weddings etc.). But for this to happen residents need to recognize that such accommodations are not mandatory, and declining to make them does not constitute discrimination.

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[fourthyearmed]

Well said goredsux.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

it also makes you sound hateful. which is ok, if that's your thing.

WTH? The problem with this attitude is that tolerance is a good thing, to a certain point. There is such a thing as being too tolerant.

 

[Siggy]

So, if I don't bend over backwords to accomodate you for your religion, then I'm a anti-semite? Because I don't care what your religion requires of you, because I'm not in it, I'm an anti-semite? Because I believe that we all must make decisions, and then live with those consequences (which in theis case would include working on Saturday because you choose to become a doctor and you choose to do a residency at that school knowing that people still get sick on Saturdays), then I'm an anti-semite?

Well, I would rather be an anti-semite then someone who feels that they need to justify their existence by throwing their religion in everyone's face, force them to bend their schedule just to accomdate you, and then call them racist, sexist, or an anti-[feel in the blank] just because they feel that they shouldn't have to adjust their lives to your choices.

We all have the freedom to practice our own religion, and we all have to live with those choices. If it means that I don't eat meat during fridays of lent because I'm Catholic, then thats my choice. I don't have the right to bitch at the cafeteria because all of their meals has non-fish meat in it because they aren't accomidating my religion. I have the freedom to go elsewhere. And you have the freedom to go else where to.

Isn't freedom grand?

 

[Siggy]

If you disregard the law which clearly protects Jews from being forced to work on Saturdays, and due this with the mind set of "screw the Jews, Sabbath or no Sabbath, they'll work Saturday", then yes. You're offically an anti-semite.

Please show me this "law" you are talking about where people are forced to give anyone special treatment because of their religion. A link would be nice, because my limited understanding of the law (because I'm not a lawyer, are you?) is that I can't discriminate agianst a person because of thier religion. That is where your availability sheet comes in. BTW, most places of busniess consider the availability request to be a request, not an order.

What about busniess, like theme parks or movie theaters, that do the majority of their busniess on Saturdays. I guess the public is anti-semetic because of that.

Yup. Freedom from religious persecution and freedom to express one's religion is a federal law. If you violate this law, then you are violating the Civil Rights of the perosn.

Please show me where you not hired, accepted, etc, because you can't work when your employer needs someone to work is anti-semetic. You poor thing, I bet you've been discriminated against a lot because of that.

I *never* said that. I am glad these message boards keep old posts, because nowhere will you ever see me write "if you aren't Jewish then you are anti-semetic". Putting words into my mouth and trying to misconstrue what I wrote is, however, anti-semetic.

You said"

What is moreover even sadder is that many anti-semites do not know they are one. So slight, gentle and unnoticeable is anti-semitism, racism and sexism that they are at times unmistakeable.

So, what is the percent of the public that is gleefully ignorant of being anti-semetic, since it is so easy to be one?

So a Jew can never work at an ice-cream store, restaraunt, department store, etc etc. In your twisted logic (or I shall rather call it pseudologic), a Jew should never even consider looking for employment because people shop on Saturday, get gas on Saturday, take airplane flights on Saturday, etc etc etc.

Your the one thats calling it discrimination and against the law, not me.

Federal law and the founding principals of this country guarantee protects the right of a Jew not to work on the Sabbath and forbids any sort of retaliation directly or indirectly related to the inability of a Sabbath observant to work on Saturday. Such retaliation would be an anti-semetic attack and in certain countries in this world (Germany comes to mind) you can be brought up on charges and go to jail.

Again, please post a link to this "law" that gives Jews some sort of special protection? Again, does a Catholic have the same protection for Easter or Christmas, or Sundays?

A reasonable compromise is required by law. Working on Sundays, non-Jewish holidays, etc are such compromises.

See the umpteen posts in this thread about christians working on their religious holidays. Again, there is no protection. Now, most employers that I know would be more then willing to work with someone that needs time off for any reasion (school, religion, family, etc). Again, though, there comes a point where the question is, how much should one bend over for the needs of someone else? As I have said earlier, medicine is a 24/7 job. People get sick everyday, but you choose to go into this profession. It is not your right to force others to conform to your schedule.

Except the Jewish person, according to you, who is unable to practice their own religion because you force them to work on their Sabbath.

Or the person also has the option of not going into a 24/7 job, like medicine. There are plenty of 9-5 monday-friday jobs out there. Just because they might not be what you would consider rewarding or enjoyable doesn't mean that they don't exist.

But you do not have the right to force a Catholic to eat meat on Friday. That would be wrong. You however are forcing the Sabbath observant Jew to work on Saturday. This is also wrong.

No one is forcing you to show up to work either. There is no gun to your head. You can find another job. Just like, as I said right below it, I would have the freedom to go to another place to eat, you have the same right to seek employment/education elsewhere.

I get it. "No Dogs, No Jews".

Shut up, troll.

 

[DrTex?]

Do diseases take religious holidays?
Those who put religion at the center of their life may be wise to consider a religious career, and not to spend their life in something as secular as science or medicine.

 

[Oranit]

It amazes me how off track a topic can get. The original poster simply asked about programs that accomidate sabbath observant Jews, she didn't demand that others at every program "bend over" to fit her schedual. This forum should include only messages that offer advice about such programs, period! There was no reason for others to rant about how much they dislike the idea, or accuse Jews of "forcing their beliefs on others". If that were the case she wouldn't ask about specific programs in the first place, she would apply wherever and once there "force" other to take her call. As it is, she is trying to be respetful of other who don't observe the sabbath by asking about programs that do! If the original poster has a certain set of values she wishes to observe then so be it, and we should direct her to programs that suit her. For those who seem to have such a visceral reaction to this, maybe you should look back in the message thread and not apply to such places. Being a doctor does not imply you must forego all other aspects of your life.

 

[dry dre]

It amazes me how off track a topic can get. . .Being a doctor does not imply you must forego all other aspects of your life.

Well, it depends on your specialty. Remember, "Death Takes a Holiday" is only a movie.

I agree with the sentiment of your post. Any program that has "special" clauses (that may require other residents to disproportionately work more / ~saturdays) is okay, so long as everyone applying to this program understands where they stand.

In the military as a single guy there was never a question if I was going to be on during the holidays. And believe me this was never made up to me. A word to the wise. . .whenever you get any type of special privilege, no matter the justification, you have potential for friction. To hope otherwise I think is a bit folly.

 

[Siggy]

^
The overall problem with this thread is that it ended up being hijacked to be a religion vs everyone else type thread. I herby apoligize to the OP (who I never addressed) for the hijacking of this thread.

My problem (and I stand by every statment I made) was with the one poster who said that anyone who does not accomdate a sabbath observering Jew is an anti-semmite. I believe that poster, not the OP, was attempting to shove their religion into everyone's face by telling us that we are discriminating if we do not take Saturday call for that person.

As far as maternity leave goes, that is a different bag all together. It is one thing to ask for accomdation for a limited part of time (i.e. just for the period right before, during, and right after) a pregnancy. It is simular to swapping Yom Kippur off for an Easter shift.

This is different then someone asking for a permanent day off for the entire residency. More power to a person who can either find an accomdating program or a person that was willing to accomdate with switched shifts, but the person (who looking back was BStone) who did cry anti-semmite at anyone who disagreed was, in all reality, wrong.


Again, my apologies to the OP. Good luck.

 

[beriberi]

... Despite federal and state laws which absolutely require for compensation and an AMA resolution stating the same.... Any employer forcing an employee to work on a Sabbath day has consistantly lost the legal battles. Civil Rights commissions have always held those employers to be violating the rights of the employee and advocacy group usually cataloug such abuses.

I find this whole discussion fascinating--mostly because it seems people are unable to reasonably express their opinions on this in public.

A few questions (not intentionally inflammatory):

What are these laws? What are these court battles? Whose beliefs MUST be accomodated by the hospital? (I see Christians working every holiday, often a bit tearfully since it is very important to them to spend those days in prayer, reflection and with family). Please show me where there are statutes that support your position.

Who answers 911 calls in a small Christian town? Which police officer responds if everyone is guarenteed the day off? And why are all of the nurses at the hospital pissed because they must work Christmas against their will?

 

[Seaglass]

What you advocate is a pure, simple and blatant violation of a person's Civil Rights. It is dressed up to sound nice and understanding, but is indeed neither of those.

I think that the law requires reasonable accomodations. Since getting every Saturday off puts an unreasonable burden on the non-Jewish I doubt you could hold that to be a necessary concession. There are certainly responsibilities on both sides, for the observant Jews there should be considerable reflection before pursuing a vocation which clearly calls for availability to work any day of the week.

 

[Siggy]

So let me understand. It is perfectly OK with you to force a Sabbath-observant Jew to work on their holy Sabbath. Despite federal and state laws which absolutely require for compensation and an AMA resolution stating the same, you will disregard whatever ancient religious belief this Jewish person has. What you advocate is a pure, simple and blatant violation of a person's Civil Rights. It is dressed up to sound nice and understanding, but is indeed neither of those.

How astounding it is that in this day and age, where sensitivity and understand is a basic theme of our daily lives, people like you exist. Subtle, gentle and slick, your desire to enforce your agenda and deny fundamental Civil Rights to a group of people is sad, shocking and appalling.

Of course you realize that your position has never held up in court. Any employer forcing an employee to work on a Sabbath day has consistantly lost the legal battles. Civil Rights commissions have always held those employers to be violating the rights of the employee and advocacy group usually cataloug such abuses.

As I have said, as well as the poster above me, the burden of proof on your argument is high since it is a legal. Your posts are worthless without courtcases, laws, etc. Basically, it would be mighty nice of you to throw in a link to a source that says that not making an exception to the rules set down before you even apply is against your belifs. I would make the exact same argument that I am making to anyone of any belief.

If you know a residency is set up in a specific way that does not mesh with your schedule, reguardless of the reason, then why are you applying there? If you know that a residency does not mesh correctly with your schedule, then where is your right to whine about it? Is it not more proper to just not apply? You seem like one of those people that move next to an airport, then want to complain about the noise!


In conclusion, no link, no care. other wise, should we pull out the worlds smallest for you?

 

[aggiecrew]

hi,

Apollyon made a an interesting point early in the thread that I havn't seen really answered and I was curious if someone who is more familiar with judaism could answer it for me.

it was something about how the Sabbath is a rest day for everyone, not just jews.

so my question is that if this is the case, then it seems like simply switching shifts with someone who isn't jewish wouldn't really be good enough since then that person would have to work on the sabbath. it seems that if you were strict, you'd have to reject residencies that allow ANY residents to work on the Sabbath.

It seems strange to be strict enough not to work on the sabbath, but not so strict that you'll put someone else in a position to work on the sabbath assuming that Judaism does indeed say that the Sabbath is for everyone.

I am assuming non-emergency work.

I mean, you are either trying to follow what Judaism says or you're not right?

So what does Judaism say?

Thanks!

 

[pillowhead]

hi,

Apollyon made a an interesting point early in the thread that I havn't seen really answered and I was curious if someone who is more familiar with judaism could answer it for me.

it was something about how the Sabbath is a rest day for everyone, not just jews.

so my question is that if this is the case, then it seems like simply switching shifts with someone who isn't jewish wouldn't really be good enough since then that person would have to work on the sabbath. it seems that if you were strict, you'd have to reject residencies that allow ANY residents to work on the Sabbath.

It seems strange to be strict enough not to work on the sabbath, but not so strict that you'll put someone else in a position to work on the sabbath assuming that Judaism does indeed say that the Sabbath is for everyone.

I am assuming non-emergency work.

I mean, you are either trying to follow what Judaism says or you're not right?

So what does Judaism say?

Thanks!

Anyone who interprets the Sabbath as taking a strict day of rest should be allowed to. The vast majority of Christians do not interpret the Sabbath that way. If they do (and to my knowledge, only Seventh Day Adventists do), then of course they should be permitted to. A day of rest does not equal a day to not work. It means no driving, no church leage baseball games Sunday afternoon, no cooking for the Sunday night church basement meeting, absolute minimal use of electricity (i.e. no turning on and off lights), no turning on the TV to watch preachers on Sunday, no turning on the dishwasher after Sunday lunch. Clearly most Christians (and most Jews) do not obey a strict Sabbath. For those who do, they should try to be accomadated. If we lived in a country where this would be impossible because everyone is of one of these religions (i.e. Israel), then no one is accomadated because patients would literally die. That is not the case in the United States, therefore I see no problem with trying to accomadate the very small number of individuals who do obey a strict Sabbath.

 

[pillowhead]

Just a quick follow-up...

Clearly no one should be absolutely forced to accomadate for a someone taking off for the Sabbath since biblically speaking, you are supposed to give your servants/slaves and animals a rest. However, these were individuals who had no choice to ever rest. Working men and women in the United States are given opportunities to rest (it's called labor laws), so it's a little different.

I think in a large enough residency program with several residents, it should not be that hard to switch around a few shifts so that those who need to be accomadated are, and none of the other resdients get stuck constantly working on Saturday. Obviously that's not right either. If a very small residency program makes it clear from the beginning that logistics make that impossible, well then, it would be silly for that applicant to rank that program highly.

And to the person suggestintg that maternity leave is only a temporary situation...well, having a child certainly isn't, and a parent is going to have to be accomadated here and there for kid's illness, taking kid somewhere, babysitter not showing up, etc, while a non-parent isn't. I'm just trying to point out that it's not like this one group of Sabbath observing people are the only ones requiring accomadation and that if it weren't for them, we'd all have absolutely ideal hours. I feel that is how a few (definitely not all or even most) people really seem to feel, and are just looking for a scapegoat.

 

[Siggy]

^
What I meant by temporary is that the person is not:
A: expecting to have to get the same day off week after week. I'm sure its one thing if in a x hour shift, you need to leave for 30 minutes to drop the kids off at the sitters.

B: A person with a child is generally expected to have a spouse (babies don't just pop out on their own, a little action is generally expected about 9 months before the big even), thus the mother/father should be expected to lean on their support network.

So, yes, maternity leave is temporary and I doubt that the mother/father is going to have to have the same day off every week (especially a weekend day) to accomadate. Yes, problems will crop up from time to time.

Thirdly, religion and family commitments are not generally the same. I'm sure people would be more accomodating for a person who has to take 1 day off a month or change a couple shifts a month because of families then a person who wants the same day every week off because of religion.

Finally, I hope the end of your last paragraph is not directed at me. Residency hours are packed because of the amount you (and hopefully in 6 [undergrad+ms) years me have to learn during it. It is asinine (not directed at pillow) to believe that just one person or 1 group of people are causing a giant problem, but as you said, this can happen in a small residency.

 

[aggiecrew]

Anyone who interprets the Sabbath as taking a strict day of rest should be allowed to. QUOTE]

I'm not disputing that, my question isn't about that. My question was about whether Judaism says that the Sabbath is a day for Jews to rest or a day for everyone to rest.

is there anyone who knows alot about Judaism who can enlighten me? Is Judaism not clear on this issue?'

thanks!

 

[cytoborg]

Working men and women in the United States are given opportunities to rest (it's called labor laws)

Do labor laws apply to residents? Outside the 80-hr workweek that is...

 

[NYU Med Stud]

Anyone who interprets the Sabbath as taking a strict day of rest should be allowed to. QUOTE]

I'm not disputing that, my question isn't about that. My question was about whether Judaism says that the Sabbath is a day for Jews to rest or a day for everyone to rest.

is there anyone who knows alot about Judaism who can enlighten me? Is Judaism not clear on this issue?'

thanks!

I am hesitant to enter the melee, as, frankly, I am horrified by some of the things said here. It frightens me that one day people who have such regressive and hateful ideas will one day be my colleagues. To all who attemped to keep calm and composure in their responses, I applaud you.

The one thing I will add, however, is just to turn around an argument that was made before (forgive me for not quoting, I'm new here): "If you don't like that a residency program won't accomodate you for Shabbat, don't apply there." (I paraphrase.) Fine. Then I will tell you that if you don't like that a residency program DOES accomodate those who are strict Sabbath observers, don't apply there. If the Sabbath observers have to limit their options, it's only fair that you have to limit yours. And you (the non-observer) are surely getting the better end of the deal.

Bstone's referrence to the law is accurate, even if he didn't provide links (I myself have too much Anatomy to catch up on to find them); I was assured of that by highly placed officials in several NY area hospitals (most of whom are NOT Jewish, so please don't go down that road).

As another poster mentioned, there are a VERY small number of Orthodox Jews and Seventh Day Adventists and others who are prohibited by their belief system to do actions which violate Sabbath. Follow the golden rule, and do unto others as you wish them to do to you. Orthodox Jews don't go into medicine to make bucketloads of cash, they do it to help people, like you do (I hope).

(As for the Orthodox guy who wanted to take off Sunday as well, that's just ignorant and dumb. Any Orthodox person I know understands that if you want Saturday off, you'd better work Sunday, nights, Christmas, New Year's, Thanksgiving, and Secretary's Day, and with a smile, or you won't make it very far in medicine.)

OK, on to the issue of Judaism and non-Jews working on Sabbath. The short answer is, no, it is not a violation of the laws of Sabbath if a non-Jew works in a Jew's place. There is no commandment, implied or otherwise, that non-Jews are to keep Sabbath as the Jews are to. If one KNOWS another (nonobservant) Jew will fill his spot in a residency, that is a serious dillemma that a competent rabbinical authority must work out. That's not to imply that one group of people is "better" than another, there are just different rules for different groups, that's all. To the poster who quoted that "your donkey, slave*, etc" are also to rest: That passage is the Torah's way of saying that your property cannot do work for you on Sabbath that you yourself cannot do. "Property" being the operative word; if you don't own it, it can't do work for you, and so it doesn't matter what it is doing or when.

Hope that helps!
--DT

(*slavery, btw, is more accurately defined as court-ordered or voluntary indentured servitude, and not "shackle and work-to-death" slavery that comes to mind quickly. That is VERY prohibited. As for it being a good idea or not, read 3001: The Final Odyssey and let me know what you think.)

 

[sohsie]

I actually have some free time this month so I thought Id share my 2 cents on the Sabbath observant residency issue.

I am a Sabbath observant PGY-2 resident in a pathology residency in an area of the country where most likely there are no other Sabbath observant residents in any field. Being a pathology resident, there is not a whole lot of call, and no in hospital call. Here, weekday call is assigned to a different person every day, and weekend call is taken all at once. When you are on weekend call, you are on from Friday evening until Monday morning. We are scheduled for 5 weekends a year plus one holiday. This year, I asked for and received Veteran’s Day as my holiday (which had a built in extra 3 days of weekday call to be scheduled later since it was the only non-holiday weekend call). The more senior residents have less call. How do I manage it? I offer trades to people that are to their benefit. I have traded all of my “Sabbath” portion of my weekend calls already. Here is how my trades went this year:
1) 2 Straight up Fri night- Sat for Sat night – Monday morning trades. This means that instead of each person covering one weekend, I cover two Sat night-Monday mornings and the other person covers two Friday night-Sat. (One was with someone I knew that I knew beforehand asked her as a starter before I got to know everyone. The other was when I overheard a resident bummed because they couldn’t go to a baseball game on a Sunday because of call and I made an offer to help her out).
2) Labor Day weekend. I covered Sat night – Tuesday morning in exchange for a later Friday night – Sat.
3) Thanksgiving. I covered Wed night – Friday and Sat night – Mon morning in exchange for a Friday night – Sat to be named later
4) New Years. I will be covering Wed night – Friday and Sat night – Mon morning in exchange for a Friday night – Sat to be named later.

I gently asked the residents in question if they would be interested and told them straight up that if not, no problem. Everyone so far has been happy (baseball game attended, Thanksgiving Dinner with no worries, most of Labor day weekend to enjoy, etc., less total call). It is true that in a straight up split of the weekend (Fri night – Sat and Sat night – Mon), being on call on a Saturday (except when the holiday weekends start before Saturday (ie Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years this year)) is worse than Sunday and there tends to be more to do. However, being on call only one night where your sleep can get interrupted (yes, we do get called in the middle of the night) is better than having it done twice, and these type calls tend to be evenly distributed (ie Fri night = Sat night = Sun night = weekday night). This is why I have tried to make trades where I was taking on more call than I was asking for coverage. I understand that I am a monkey wrench in the normal order of things and so I need to overcompensate.

In principle, I do not expect any residency to accommodate me. This is a free country and there are many professions besides medicine that are open to me. However, I think that it doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong in asking programs if they can accommodate you and I think that it speaks well for a residency when it is able to accommodate someone. There are residencies in the northeast that have open, advertised Sabbath residency slots. The programs that I have seen or heard about from friends design the calls and the days so that the Sabbath observant residents are almost always on on Sundays and they usually come in Sat nights (in contradiction to some of the posters who seem to think the residents on Friday night go until Sun morning (which is an ACGME violation now anyway) and the Sabbath observant residents stroll in leisurely on Sunday mornings). Also, with the night float system spreading, I think that this will become less of a problem anyway (I think one Friday night is at best equivalent to one Sat night and one Sunday night). I have seen other residents in those programs complain, and for their complaints I have little sympathy. The programs are quite open about this, and if you didn’t like it, then don’t rank that program. If there were problems, you can easily find out from the residents (who you should talk to when interviewing at any program) and decide not to rank that program.

There are also programs which have taken residents unofficially, made promises to the Sabbath observant applicant, and then just kind of thrown the problem onto the other residents to work out. This tends to be a situation that is bad for everyone. I think the most ideal situation is for this to be discussed with both the program director and the chief residents. For some programs, it may not be a big deal. For others, it may be a bigger problem than imagined. There is no one right answer for this, and I think it that it requires that the Sabbath observant resident be understanding, willing to always take on extra work and always be willing to do what is necessary to lessen the burden on the program. I know Sabbath observant residents who are bad eggs, who try to get away with things and try to do as little as possible. Unfortunately, there are good and bad people in all walks of life. All I can say that is this behavior is embarrassing to me and everything I believe in.

As for me, I did a student fellowship for a year in the program in question beforehand, so everyone knew (residents and attendings) going in that I was Sabbath observant and also saw that I was the type of person who worked his butt off the rest of the week and always came in on Sat night and Sundays to finish up my work. I have had to walk home a couple of times because I could not leave the hospital in time to drive home (5 miles) and I never complained. The program has accommodated me, so I feel it is my obligation to bear any burden necessary to make it easier for the institution.

As for medical school itself, this is a situation where I think every medical school should be able to accommodate Sabbath observant students. No hospital operates dependent on medical students, so there is no reason that a Sabbath observant medical student must stay and not simply be able to come in on Sat night and Sunday night instead. There is no unique experience that happens only on a Friday night in a hospital that is indispensable to medical student learning.

Finally, I have been bombarded with the claim that “The patients come first, patient care comes first, your personal beliefs must be subsumed to patient care” It is as if medicine were its own religion or philosophy. Medicine is medicine, not religion or philosophy. It is a person’s core values, applied with the tools of medicine, which make a person a healer. For some people, their religion is the foundation of those core values, and so to violate those core beliefs in the name of patient care is to turn things inside out. Besides, those “doctors” are full of it anyway. I can imagine if they were told “Im sorry doctor X, but your salary is now $40,000 and you don’t get any more vacation or days off because the patient’s really need you and we are using your salary to ease the patient’s financial burden. After all, your desires must be subsumed to patient care. How can you drive a luxury car when there are patients that are suffering?” I don’t think they would go for it.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[beriberi]

Interesting perspective (and perhaps more informed than anyone else here, myself included). However, for all of the non-residents out there, they should not assume that a pathologist's schedule resemble's any other specialty in the hospital (gas, rads, psych included--they all take much more call). Trades are nearly impossible in other areas because not that many people are ever off.

We are scheduled for 5 weekends a year plus one holiday. This year, I asked for and received Veteran’s Day as my holiday (which had a built in extra 3 days of weekday call to be scheduled later since it was the only non-holiday weekend call).

Holidays I have worked this year: (starting in june)
4th July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans day, 4/4 days of Thanksgiving, My birthday, my husband's birthday, my parents' birthdays, will be on call Christmas Eve, New Year's day...and that is as far as the schedule goes.

In order to trade to get a 24 hour period off (and sabbath is usually parts of various 24 hours duty periods in the hospital), then you must have residents who DO have that time off.

 

[sohsie]

Interesting perspective (and perhaps more informed than anyone else here, myself included). However, for all of the non-residents out there, they should not assume that a pathologist's schedule resemble's any other specialty in the hospital (gas, rads, psych included--they all take much more call). Trades are nearly impossible in other areas because not that many people are ever off.




Holidays I have worked this year: (starting in june)
4th July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans day, 4/4 days of Thanksgiving, My birthday, my husband's birthday, my parents' birthdays, will be on call Christmas Eve, New Year's day...and that is as far as the schedule goes.

In order to trade to get a 24 hour period off (and sabbath is usually parts of various 24 hours duty periods in the hospital), then you must have residents who DO have that time off.

This is one of many reasons I looked into pathology. I think the ability to do a sabbath observant residency depends on schedule and the size of the program. For instance, it is extremely unreasonable to believe that one could work out such a schedule in surgery or OB/GYN (I heard a rumor of one surgery resident in NY). I think when you are Q2-4, it is next to impossible. However, ~Q7, you're probably OK if you're willing to be really really nice to a lot of people (and there are plenty of residencies that dont have the rigorous call schedule one normally is exposed to in medical school at an academic medical center). Also remember that with the new ACGME regulations where you must have 1 24 hour period off per 7 days, averaged over 4 weeks, it may soon not be the formidable obstacle it once was. I know of people who before the age of official Sabbath observant residency positions, doing residencies in medicine, peds, radiology, and derm (Im sure there have been others).

Overall though, it is difficult, and one has to be prepared for that before they enter medicine. But thats life. My grandfather owned a retail business in the age when it was next to impossible not to operate on Saturday, especially since blue laws prevented them from operating on Sundays. My grandfather refused tooperate on Saturday. Maybe I got it from him

 

[LisaY]

WOW, I have been working long hours and hadn't looked at the forum for a while. What a surprise to see so many replies.

So to update and sort of revive the thread:
I did manage to find a Sabbath Observant prelim position in an IM program in NJ, in fact it is a hospital that did not have such a program and got funding for an extra PGY1 (I arrived in the States after the match and post-scramble). When I interviewed, asked if they could accomodate, and after discussion, the faculty agreed. So I was scheduled for an extra month of night float (no Fri nights on NF), and work each weekend either Sat night or Sunday or both, my hours are not even a teensy bit less than anyone else's.

My program has a mix of residents from different religions - Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc, and I have not exerienced any resentment from anyone else. In fact, we all looked at he Christmas schedule together, and I and the non-Christian residents swapped with the Christians on call for the 24th (Eve) and 25th so that they could share in their family celebrations. People have been totally happy to do cross coverage with me on Shabbat for their Sundays, and having the residency as Sabbath Observant has been incredibly easy. In fact the PD told me that the faculty plan to continue the Sabbath Observant program, and also has offered me a PGY2 position if I would like to stay on at the hospital.

I do not believe that I have generated any reason for other residents to feel hard done by, and all I can say is Thank G-d I have not encountered the selfish sentiments of some of the people posting here, a few of you do not sound like the nicest people around. Hope you are more personable to your patients and co-workers.

PS if anyone wants to contact me with qns about Shabbat residencies, please feel free to do so... Lisa

 

[penguins]

Wow, this post is crazy. I can't believe people who are suppossed to be professionals are so rude! Some things said have been very anti-semetic, I agree.

My 2 cents. There were about 6 Jews in my med school class and here is where the resentment came in. They all talked in front of proffessors/atendings about how they had to be off for the Sabbath and only 1 of the 6 even actually observed it. The other 5 were at the bars or at strip clubs. Now, I am not at all saying that is an accurate or respresentative proportion, but it is frustrating because *sometimes* it seems like an excuse for special treatment. The 1 who did really observe it, I was more than happy to even do extra work for. I really respected the commitment it took.

One thing that is most bothering me about starting residency is not the long hours or hard work but not being able to go to Church with my husband on Sundays and having to work Easter (Christmas is sad to, but especially Easter). Thankfully, the whole point of Easter, however, is that I am not bound by certain laws anymore and as long as I have Christ in my heart it doesn't matter where I am- I can still worship. So I will just deal with it for a relatively short period of time.

I think the fact that the OP has the ability in this country to find a program like she has is GREAT. What some of these complainers seems to be forgetting is that this is all pre-arranged. The program openly offers it so if as a non-Jew you have a problem with it you don't have to go there. And it isn't whining in my book if you said up front you have this need. It is if you match and then on the first scheduling day you bust out with all these special needs and demand to have them met. But that is the case regardless of the reason.

There are lots of reasons to choose or not choose a residency program. To be honest, I have interviewed at some places that I knew I wouldn't be comfortable. But it was because of the proportionately large amount of Muslims. I am not anti-them but I know I wouldn't be comfortable there. If there are features of a program you don't like then don't go there.

I think we can all learn a lot from the point of the post. I am impressed that there are people to whom their religion is so important that they are willing to make large sacrifices to be sure it is kept as the priority in their life. No matter who makes fun of them or says such rude things about them.

(I think the person who sarcastically wrote: "no dogs, no jews" was way out of line, that is not what was being said!)

 

[brokenfingers]

First off this whole topic has jas gotten out of control. As a Jew myself, I hope that everyone can practice whatever the believe-

But in the life that we have all chosen, as physicians, especially as residents, our jobs come first, family second, and everything else third. All of you mental masterbaters (medicine, psych, path etc...) can go on debating. As far as I'm concerned a CHF exacerbation is as likely to happen on a sunday as a friday. I'm sure you'll get the experience and as long as someone else wants to trade shifts- fine. However, the surical fields are completely different. There are more GSW, MVA's and overall crap from friday evening through sunday morning. And if you are going to avoiding working these shifts not only do you screw your collegues, but you hurt future patients by limiting your experiences. Therfore if anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Budhist, Hindu, etc) came to me and said I can't work becuase of my beliefs I would tell them to f**K themselves and fine a new place to train at. As a surgeon, you need to put your beliefs on hold many times.

Just beacuse your patient is some drunk neo-nazi, who just killed a cop, dosen't mean you can treat him differently, eventhough I'd like make him suffer. You put your beliefs on hold. In your free time you can celebrate your holidays any way you want but at work we ALL put patients first and beliefs second.

Just my 2 cents.....

 

[toofache32]

...But in the life that we have all chosen, as physicians, especially as residents, our jobs come first, family second, and everything else third...

Job before family?! You can't be serious.....I pity any family of yours. I'm not sure this is really related to working on Sundays. My family comes first, but this doesn't mean I can't work on Sundays. I work hard at my job for my family because they come first. Putting your family first doesn't mean telling patients tough luck if the get injured/sick on a Sunday. It's just part of the job, but that doesn't mean your job takes precedence over your family or other stuff. Jeez....preachers/rabbis work on Sundays....

 

[Poety]

Job before family?! You can't be serious.....I pity any family of yours. I'm not sure this is really related to working on Sundays. My family comes first, but this doesn't mean I can't work on Sundays. I work hard at my job for my family because they come first. Putting your family first doesn't mean telling patients tough luck if the get injured/sick on a Sunday. It's just part of the job, but that doesn't mean your job takes precedence over your family or other stuff. Jeez....preachers/rabbis work on Sundays....

Amen toofache - and as someone going into psych, I think thats half the problem with today's society, lets just stick our kids on the back burner and hope they raise themselves Lets not take responsibility for who we were blessed with to care for, noooo we must be a DOCTOR <said in superman voice> without any care for anything else.

To the op: take pride in seeking out and finding a place that affords you the opportunity to observe the Sabbath - and to all others that out there working their buns off but still puts family first - believe me when I say, you can mess up lots of things, but if you mess up your children - then you've ultimately failed at everything, I commend you all for making the right choice.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

As far as I'm concerned a CHF exacerbation is as likely to happen on a sunday as a friday. I'm sure you'll get the experience and as long as someone else wants to trade shifts- fine. However, the surical fields are completely different. There are more GSW, MVA's and overall crap from friday evening through sunday morning. And if you are going to avoiding working these shifts not only do you screw your collegues, but you hurt future patients by limiting your experiences.

Since no one here has mentioned not working from Friday evening thru Sunday morning, this is a bit of a straw man. Orthodox Jews can work on Saturday evenings/nights, which is a good time when "lots of overall crap" happens. I'm not familiar with the exact beliefs of 7th Day Adventists, but I assume they can work either Friday or Saturday night. Thus, they'll get the experience that they need.

Therfore if anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Budhist, Hindu, etc) came to me and said I can't work becuase of my beliefs I would tell them to f**K themselves and fine a new place to train at. As a surgeon, you need to put your beliefs on hold many times.

Unfortunately, you would have just violated their civil liberties.

Bstone has mentioned several times in this thread that:

"Any employer forcing an employee to work on a Sabbath day has consistantly lost the legal battles. Civil Rights commissions have always held those employers to be violating the rights of the employee and advocacy group usually cataloug such abuses."

He seems to have been too busy to track down the relevent laws, despite being called on it, so I decided to do a little research myself.

Basically, under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, employers are required to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs, unless they can prove that it is an undue hardship.

---
From http://www.rutherford.org/documents/pdf/brief_bank/D01-CompulsorySabbathLabor.pdf


...an employer is required by law to accommodate an employee's religious observances and practices unless she/he is able to prove that it would be an undue hardship. In essence, an employer must respect an employee's Sabbath unless she/he can prove that doing so would be more than a de minimis burden. The three important points to remember is that: (1) the employer has the burden of proving that accommodating an employee's needs is an undue hardship; (2) de minimis means any hardship that is not trifling; and (3) the employee has a duty to cooperate with the employer.

Fortunately, the employee does not have the burden of proof. This means that the employer must prove that accommodating an employee's religious practices creates an undue hardship and that the hardship is more than de minimis. The hardship on the employer must be actual. Hypothetical and conceivable hardships are not enough...

Although the Supreme Court and the federal appellate courts have not clearly defined what is de minimis, they have addressed what is not de minimis. A federal district court determined that infrequent payments and administrative costs of implementing the accommodation are de minimis. The employer is not required to incur more than a de minimis cost. An employer is not required to deny shift preferences of some employees to accommodate religious practices. Also, though a labor agreement can not be made in violation of the
statute, the employer is not required to violate a valid labor agreement to accommodate a religious practice.

For example, a postal worker wanted her employer to compel others to work involuntarily in her place on her Sabbath. The Appellate Court determined that the employer's asking other employees to work in her place was sufficient and the employer was not required to compel the other employees to work in her place.
---

So basically, you could NOT "tell them to f**K themselves and find a new place to train at." You COULD tell them that you will do your best to enable them to not work on the Sabbath, but that you can not absolutely guarantee it, because it depends on them finding other employees willing to switch shifts with them.


Here are some recent cases of these laws being enforced:

---
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0801/sabbath.ruling.asp
Saturday Sabbath 'non-denominational' Christian scores legal victory for minority religions
---
http://news.adventist.org/data/2000/03/0955471726/index.html.en
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2000/apr/apr04b_00.html
Retail giant Sears, Roebuck & Co. will allow its New York State employees who have religious objections to working on Saturday to work on Sunday instead. This concession is part of a larger settlement, reached Tuesday, April 4, between Sears and the New York State Attorney General's office. The attorney general has been investigating complaints that Sears fired Donovan Reed, a Seventh-day Adventist repair-person, and refused employment to as many as five Orthodox Jews because they could not work on Saturday.
---

Even more importantly, because title VII has been interpreted in many different ways by different courts and does not afford a clear standard of protection to religious people, there is currently a bi-partisan piece of legislation in the works which "amends title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to establish provisions with respect to religious accommodation in employment." You can see the full text of this new legislation, called the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.677:

A relevent quote from it:

---
(2)(A) In this subsection, the term `employee' includes an employee (as defined in subsection (f)), or a prospective employee, who, with or without reasonable accommodation, is qualified to perform the essential functions of the employment position that such individual holds or desires.

`(B) In this paragraph, the term `perform the essential functions' includes carrying out the core requirements of an employment position and does not include carrying out practices relating to clothing, practices relating to taking time off, or other practices that may have a temporary or tangential impact on the ability to perform job functions, if any of the practices described in this subparagraph restrict the ability to ... take time off for a holy day, or to participate in a religious observance or practice.
---

As I mentioned, this is a bi-partisan piece of legislation and is widely expected to be passed. It enjoys the support of a broad coalition of religious groups including, but not limited to: American Jewish Committee, Baptist Joint Committee, Christian Legal Society, Family Research Council, General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists, National Association of Evangelicals, National Council of Churches, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. In other words, this is certainly not an exclusively Jewish concern.

Just beacuse your patient is some drunk neo-nazi, who just killed a cop, dosen't mean you can treat him differently, eventhough I'd like make him suffer. You put your beliefs on hold. In your free time you can celebrate your holidays any way you want but at work we ALL put patients first and beliefs second.

Just my 2 cents.....

Again, this is a straw man. Denying treatment to a patient is not the same as rearranging a schedule in order to have certain days off.

I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

First off this whole topic has jas gotten out of control. As a Jew myself, I hope that everyone can practice whatever the believe-

But in the life that we have all chosen, as physicians, especially as residents, our jobs come first, family second, and everything else third. All of you mental masterbaters (medicine, psych, path etc...) can go on debating. As far as I'm concerned a CHF exacerbation is as likely to happen on a sunday as a friday. I'm sure you'll get the experience and as long as someone else wants to trade shifts- fine. However, the surical fields are completely different. There are more GSW, MVA's and overall crap from friday evening through sunday morning. And if you are going to avoiding working these shifts not only do you screw your collegues, but you hurt future patients by limiting your experiences. Therfore if anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Budhist, Hindu, etc) came to me and said I can't work becuase of my beliefs I would tell them to f**K themselves and fine a new place to train at. As a surgeon, you need to put your beliefs on hold many times.

Just beacuse your patient is some drunk neo-nazi, who just killed a cop, dosen't mean you can treat him differently, eventhough I'd like make him suffer. You put your beliefs on hold. In your free time you can celebrate your holidays any way you want but at work we ALL put patients first and beliefs second.

Just my 2 cents.....

Of course, if said surgeon isn't going to practice on Saturdays later either, why would he need to know how to take care of GSWs anyway? (You know this is partly in jest)

Regarding this whole discussion, as a Mormon I prefer not to work Sunday, but my religion allows exceptions for "the ox in the mire." For instance, if your ox falls in the mire on Sunday you're not going to leave him there all night. So it is justified working on Sunday, for police, firefighters, doctors etc. Since I am in EM, I can frequently take my days off on Sundays, but I certainly cannot (and do not try) to get every Sunday off.

I would have to note that I would be pissed to be an intern on a call-taking rotation when one of the other interns got every Saturday all month off...NO MATTER WHAT OTHER DAYS HE WORKED. I think I would avoid going to any residency that offered Shabbat spots, just to avoid the situation.

Speaking of anti-semitism, has anyone been following this crazy Iranian president who doesn't believe the holocaust ever happened? Unbelievable. I want to send him a plane ticket to Washington D.C. so he can tour the Holocaust Museum. How many nutty fundamentalist Islamic anti-Israelis are there out there who honestly believe the Holocaust is invented propaganda?

 

[mosche]

I would have to note that I would be pissed to be an intern on a call-taking rotation when one of the other interns got every Saturday all month off...NO MATTER WHAT OTHER DAYS HE WORKED. I think I would avoid going to any residency that offered Shabbat spots, just to avoid the situation.

QUOTE]

Well said Desperado. I am Jewish -- as one might gather from my screen name. However, I am not looking for a residency that allows me to take off for the Sabbath observance. That having been said, I admire those who have the dedication/conviction to commit themselves to Sabbath observance; but, if I did not, I would simply go to a program where such practices are not allowed. I do not understand why medical students, supposedly intelligent individuals, get so bent out of shape with the way that others choose to live their lives.

To the OP: congratulations on your match -- wasn't that the whole point of this thread!?

To the moderators: Why is this thread allowed to continue? When I joined SDN, I was informed, and asked to abide by certain rules; further, I was informed that violating those rules could result in being banned. I've seen several blatantly anti-Semitic remarks in this thread, and yet it's been allowed to continue (I am not alone in my assessment, based on other posters' remarks). Why? I would appreciate some clarification on the SDN rules regarding such issues.

 

[LisaY]

Well, this thread has been quite an eye-opener for me.

Firstly, it has been nice to see how many people have been supportive, and quite frankly, I do not see why anyone should be opposed to the idea of a Sabbath Observant Programme. I don't think that I have inconvenienced anyone in my programme. I just got my ICU schedule, which is normally Q5, but I got extra night shifts, including every Sunday, so I cannot imagine that the other residents will feel vaguely upset that they have fewer weekend shifts. Au contraire, they were thrilled.

Secondly, as far as our slicer and dicer is concerned:

But in the life that we have all chosen, as physicians, especially as residents, our jobs come first, family second, and everything else third. All of you mental masterbaters (medicine, psych, path etc...) can go on debating.

I cannot disagree more. I am a hard worker and never leave before I have finished all that I have to do, and the residents and attendings are aware of that. But if something terrible happened to any resident's family member, they would not be expected to "prove their dedication" to work by , say, skipping the funeral to be on time for rounds. Really. If you are totally bereft of caring feelings for your own friends and family, how can you see any value in prolonging or improving the lives & wellbeing of your own patients who are strangers to you?

In addition:
Therfore if anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Budhist, Hindu, etc) came to me and said I can't work becuase of my beliefs I would tell them to f**K themselves and fine a new place to train at.

Well, I guess that if you are so intolerant of other people's beliefs and so ambivalent about your own ethics and morals, they may well be better off doing just that.

Oh, and by the way, it's spelled mastUrbater. And I didn't know that using your brain was to be looked down upon. Sorry.

Aside from all that silliness, the other enlightening thing for me was to realise that it's not just rednecks from woop woop who are prejudiced and not shy to show it. A couple of bigots have revealed themselves to us all, let's all hope we never have the misfortune to encounter them in person.

Layla tov to you all...

 

[Poety]

Lisa, the saddest part is, we're usually rubbing elbows with them and they hide their disdain consistently. Sad.

Great post btw!

 

[mosche]

Lisa, the saddest part is, we're usually rubbing elbows with them and they hide their disdain consistently. Sad.

Great post btw!

Amen and Amen!

BTW Lisa, congratulations on your residency spot. I admire your conviction.

 

[Winged Scapula]

To the moderators: Why is this thread allowed to continue? When I joined SDN, I was informed, and asked to abide by certain rules; further, I was informed that violating those rules could result in being banned. I've seen several blatantly anti-Semitic remarks in this thread, and yet it's been allowed to continue (I am not alone in my assessment, based on other posters' remarks). Why? I would appreciate some clarification on the SDN rules regarding such issues.

The Moderators, myself included, are often too busy to read every thread and every post in every thread. Therefore, we ask the users to assist in censuring others who contribute in a negative fashion AND to notify the Moderators when such actions are not helpful or when the user in question really crosses the line.

I had not seen this thread before this afternoon. I'll review it this evening and "Moderate" as appropriate per SDN TOS. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

[person2004]

.

 

[sohsie]

Dear Lisa,

Congratulations on finding a program to accomodate you. I posted my story on an earlier post. I think there are a lot of aspects to this issue and both the supporters and the detractors have valid points. Thats why I think it is incumbent on those that are Sabbath observant and want to maintain that throuhg med school and residency to set an example and to be accomodating in every way possible. Unfortunately, there are those (and Ive had the unfortunate experience to know some of them) for whom Sabbath observance is an entitlement which they brandish arrogantly and they use as excuse to "slack off". We for whom Sabbath observance is part of a dedication to a commitment to the values of the "Old Testament" have to overcome their bad example and show that they are the minority, not the rule as one previous poster implied.

I am reminded of something that happened to me in my first year of medical school in the northeast with a sizable Jewish student population. A histology written exam was scheduled for the second day of Rosh Hashana (Jewish New Year, one of the high holidays that many otherwise non-observant Jews try to observe). I approached the course director well in advance and politely asked if I could arrange a makeup exam. He immediately accused me of being arrogant and accusatory and demanding things of him and that why should he be expected to care about these things. As is usually is the case when someone attacks me, I assumed that there must be something to the accusation and I must not realize how I sound or how I was expressing myself. Later, I found out that he reacted to everyone who had made this request (about 7-10 others) in exactly the same way and that he had been explicitly instructed by the Dean of Students not to schedule an exam that day and he had simply ignored her request. And that they went through this dance every single year. Fortunately, he was all bluster and had already planned to give a makeup early the morning after anyway.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

 

[Winged Scapula]

On further review of this thread and comments made by SDN users, it appears to me that the negative comments in question where made over 1 year ago and the users were warned and post-held at that time. Since then the users who were sanctioned have not posted on this thread.

I agree that the comments made at that time were inappropriate and not in keeping with the SDN TOS and the simple fact that they are a year old does not excuse the poster from making offensive statements. However, a thread is not automatically closed because it contains some offensive statements, if the weight of the discussion appears to be useful to the majority of users. The thread was resurrected by users from its year old grave and seemed to serve a purpose to those posting on it and was therefore allowed to continue. Should there come a time when this or any other thread outlives its usefullness or becomes overwhelmingly offensive then it will be closed.

I hope this clarifies the SDN policy on such matters.

 

[pankun]

After seeing this thread, I think I will try to stay away from all residency programs which favor one group over others. I know I will be unhappy in a program where some "chosen people" can have all friday nights and saturdays off. It's just unfair.

 

[toofache32]

This same person might claim to be a liberal, accepting, non-judgemental individual. Self-denial bigotry, alive and well it so sadly seems.

Nice way to avoid the problem he was addressing. And does "accepting, non-judgemental" mean he should take all your Saturday shifts?

 

[f_w]

I did my internship at a sabbath observant (but unfortunately not sunday observant) residency program.

When it came to covering the ICU 1:3 with one sabbath observant resident, I ended up with a schedule leaving me to work 1 month straight and him having every weekend off. I threatened to sue, and they fixed the schedule by hiring moonlighters.

During residency, one of my classmates was sabbath observant. After some wrangling about the schedule, we figured out an equitable way to ensure that all residents did the same amount of call.

The degree to which people choose to observe sabbath is variable. We had one orthodox chief resident who, if he was on for a weekend of backup, would stay in town friday night, walked to a local synagogue for the services and walked back to the hospital for rounds. He just was a smart guy in willing to compromise, unfortunately not everyone is (all it took was for his rabbi to sign off on this. I don't think he is going to go to hell for it).

(The part that got my goat is that some of my observant co-residents freely admitted that once they are attendings they will of course work on sabbath. Because after all, they are 'saving lives' .)

 

[MD'05]

It's not a double standard - the two religions have two different sets of requirements for observers: Christianity does not require observers to not work on Sunday or attend services, however orthodox Judaism does have requirements for a day without labor.

With all due respect, that is not true. Many branches of Christianity require followers to observe a day of rest on Sunday and to attend church. I think it is crap that Jews and Muslims can observe their sabbath, but Christians cannot. Are we as Christians less religious and adherent to our faith than Jews and Muslims?

 

[beriberi]

Uhhh...That doesn't work if you have one person who needs every Sunday off and one who needs every Sat. In our program, most people work 3 Sats, 3 Suns per month.

This issue is a lot more complicated than just finding a born-again for every orthodox and making them best friends.

 

[toofache32]

What do you guys mean by "staying in town on the sabbath?" Two of you have said that today.

 

[f_w]

What do you guys mean by "staying in town on the sabbath?" Two of you have said that today.

Not being of the jewish faith myself, I can only relate what my colleagues told me:

The prohibition against working on the sabbath can be dispensed if the work is in benefitting the community (e.g. by 'saving lives').

The prohibition against travelling on a sabbath (e.g. to head into the hospital to round) is pretty much absolute.

So, if there is a way to attend to your patients without having to 'travel' (e.g. by staying near the hospital and walking in), it is 'legal' way to deal with the situation.

 

[MD'05]

My point is this, if you are a Jewish or Muslim resident, please have consideration for your Christian colleagues and don't expect them to work every Friday overnight just because you have religious obligations. Also, if you don't believe in Jesus and his teachings, don't request time off during Christmas and force the Christians to work during one of their few holidays. I don't care if your family does put up a Christmas tree every year. The Christmas tree has a pagan origin and has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

 

[mercury1980]

Just to clarify..while Friday is a holy day for Muslims, there is no rule that says they cannot work..the only thing required is that they attend the congregational noon prayer. Also I know many Muslim residents who take their vacations at times other than dec so that their Christian colleagues can enjoy Christmas with their families.

 

[Jejton]

No, but residency isn't like regular work. I'm not especially observant, so it doesn't affect me, but I think if I wasn't Jewish, and someone consistently got weekends off (and I didn't) I'd be resentful - especially when there is no clear prohibition against it (no work, vs. saving a life). Doctors working weekends are there to save peoples lives - they may not "have" to, but if they weren't necessary the hospitals wouldn't pay them to be there.

The Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown - not the whole weekend. Observant Jews and Seventh Day adventists who take off Sabbaths and holy days make up the time by doing Sunday shifts, Christmas, Thansgiving, etc. so the hours are done in the end just like everyone else.

 

[Jejton]

My (liberal) Jewish friend described it like this to me:

The law says EVERYONE gets the Shabbat off - you, your family, your slave, your donkey, everyone - Jewish or not. Since giving you off means someone else having to work on the Shabbat (even if Gentile), it still doesn't fly.

Sorry, but your friend is wrong. The only people commanded to observe the Sabbath and make it holy, according to the Jewish religion, are Jews. If other people decide to do so, that is their perogative and decision but it has nothing to do with Jewish law. Our law doesnt really place obligations on the rest of the world.

 

[f_w]

The Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown - not the whole weekend. Observant Jews and Seventh Day adventists who take off Sabbaths and holy days make up the time by doing Sunday shifts, Christmas, Thansgiving, etc. so the hours are done in the end just like everyone else.

- in a regular (ACGME compliant) call system the hours worked beyond the m-f 9-5 in a saturday call are more than in a sunday call (as you don't get monday off).
- saturday call f===s up your weekend much more profoundly than sunday call.

A residency program that offers a 'sabbath track' has to be very careful to craft the schedule in a way that it doesn't put an extra burden on the residents who are not part of that group. Making a sabbath compliant schedule that doesn't screw everyone else over is very difficult (and inflexible for that matter).

 

[pankun]

- in a regular (ACGME compliant) call system the hours worked beyond the m-f 9-5 in a saturday call are more than in a sunday call (as you don't get monday off).
- saturday call f===s up your weekend much more profoundly than sunday call.

A residency program that offers a 'sabbath track' has to be very careful to craft the schedule in a way that it doesn't put an extra burden on the residents who are not part of that group. Making a sabbath compliant schedule that doesn't screw everyone else over is very difficult (and inflexible for that matter).

Thanks for clarifying the point. I think the problem is that there is really no fair way to give certain groups all friday nights and saturdays off without adding the extra burden on other residents. People will not understand the impact unless they are residents themselves. If you are on call on Saturday, your whole weekend is gone because you stay to do morning round on Sunday as well. If you are a surgical resident, you most likely will not be able to leave until Sunday afternoon and you're back on duty on Monday since Monday is a regular work day. And for the residents in EM and trauma surgery, Friday nights and Saturdays seem to be the busiest when drunken people are out partying.