SABA or UQ? Advice appreciated...

[Zuckman]

Hey Guys,

I'm in a bit of a predicament. I'm a Canadian with very good stats but has had a hard time getting into Canada. I've been accepted to UQ but the cost is something that worries me. I've been looking at other cheaper options and found that SABA in the Caribbean is a MUCH cheaper option. It is quite a credible school, being one of the 'big 4' in the caribbean.

Pros of going to SABA:
- much cheaper tuition - about half that of UQ
- better training for USMLE
- clinical rotations in the US - makes for easier connections so that I can get good letters from physicians and getting a US residency
- match stats are good - with some Canadians getting matches in Canada, and almost all the students get US residencies. Some students getting neurosurgery, radiology, and anesthesiology

Pros of going to UQ:
- much better reputation
- probably easier to go to Canada for residency
- option of doing residency in Oz

I think SABA is not a bad option. Am I missing something here? Even though it doesn't have a great reputation, it may be the most practical route to getting a residency in North America. Any help with this decision is much appreciated. Thanks!

Zuck

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[neulite]

I guess it would all depend on your final goals. If you are set on coming back to North America then I would probably go Caribbean. However, I probably would have chosen SGU or AUC only because they've been featured in Princeton Review's top medical schools.

 

[Zuckman]

Ya, but SGU and AUC are MUCH more expensive than Saba. All 3 have similar match stats.

There are some great students going to the Caribbean. I would never have even considered it until I started to research it. Many of my very talented friends (who interviewed at several places in Canada) are at Saba and SGU and it really got me thinking!

I've really looked into Saba. It looks really shabby and run-down. However, I really don't believe it's a reflection of the students there or the opportunities that the students have. Saba, although not as fancy as the other 'big 3' Caribbean schools, seems very good!

The Caribbean has a lot of stigma but it may actually be the most practical route. I'm not sure on this though...

Zuck

 

[Swift Fox]

Hey, long time lurker first time poster here...

It depends where you want to end up in 4 years.

For Canada I wouldn't touch the Caribbean.

For the US would consider the Caribbean.

My girlfriend who is a Canadian went to ROSS and soon found out that coming back to Canada is a pipe dream. So she applied to Australia during her Med I and is going to UQ this winter. Apparently the matching is much better for Canada....... Apparently the US match isn't too shabby also...

If you want to save $$$ right now and risk later stress during residency I would swing Saba. If you have the ability to fork over some more cash then go to a decent non sketchy "run down" medical school. The benefits will pay for themselves down the road for the next 40-30 years...

 

[Zuckman]

Guys, great advice!

Swiftfox, great points! But, your girlfriend must have lots of money, because Ross is very expensive. She must have already spent almost 50K (tuition and living expenses). That amount will go down the drain if she starts over at UQ. I guess she knows what's the best decision.

Zuck

 

[Swift Fox]

When your making $200,000/yr... I guess she thinks she will absorb a lot of it also! But your right, don't make the same mistake!

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Are you kidding?? You have to be totally out of your mind to pick some diploma mill Caribbean school over the University of Queensland. UQ students can actually do clinicals in the US and Canada, although they do not have the support that they get like from schools like USyd and Flinders to do so.

 

[Zuckman]

Well, Saba may be the more practical route. I'm still deciding.

I definitely don't think all Caribbean schools are 'diploma mills' though. SGU is quite impresssive (but too expensive). It is very credible and many people matching well.

Saba though, looks like a total diploma mill. I don't think I've ever seen a more run down med school. It looks very 3rd world. However, people seem to match well from here so that's the main thing that matters. It doesn't really matter if it's a 'diploma mill' because you can get a good job in the end. I'm not sure if I'll attend though.

Zuck

 

[Zuckman]

I also forgot, more clinical time will be spent in the US when one goes to a Caribbean school. Also, elective can be done in Canada.

Zuck

 

[license2kill]

Can someone tell me the medical schools in Australia that take North Amercans? I am actually interested in attending school in Australia b/c my ultimate goal may not be coming back to the states for residency. As a foreign medical student in Australia, can I get residency in Austalia?

Also, what are competitive stats for Austalian programs?

 

[treva]

Well, Saba may be the more practical route. I'm still deciding.

I definitely don't think all Caribbean schools are 'diploma mills' though. SGU is quite impresssive (but too expensive). It is very credible and many people matching well.

Saba though, looks like a total diploma mill. I don't think I've ever seen a more run down med school. It looks very 3rd world. However, people seem to match well from here so that's the main thing that matters. It doesn't really matter if it's a 'diploma mill' because you can get a good job in the end. I'm not sure if I'll attend though.

Zuck

One thing about the Caribbean though is that you have no opportunity to stay if and work there once your done your degree if you can't seem to find a placement in Canada or the US. At least in some parts of Australia (as it stands right now) you do have this luxury.

 

[license2kill]

So are you saying that for the most part, after getting your education in Australia, you have to leave?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

So are you saying that for the most part, after getting your education in Australia, you have to leave?

I think they are saying the opposite. If you graduate from the Carribean and you don't get a good residency back in the states.. your screwed. Its not like you can get much of a job as a doctor in the carrib afterwards.

In Australia and New Zealand there are great opportunities. In fact 20-30% of our FMGs moving to do their residency and work here are med grads from the UK.. and we have an ever increasing number of FMGs from the US now.

Residents in Australia make almost double what you would make in the US.. and the training is just as good and the lifestyle even better.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I got news for you, SGU is more expensive than UQ. I checked out both AUC and SGU, the islands are EXPENSIVE. If you check out the tuition and the cost of living. Grenada is extremely expensive and most of SGU's rotations are in NYC, so you are going to pay a lot more for living than in Brisbane. Even Sydney has some areas, nice ones, that are reasonably priced.

SGU is well over 300k US, and if you are that concerned about being near North America I suggest you apply to DO schools. DOs are accepted in most Canadian provinces.

The strong Aussie dollar though has narrowed the cost advantage of Australian schools quite a bit, when I started total tuition and living costs for UQ were about 140,000US while SGU was 250,000, for the 2009 class, UQ will be about 240,000US about 60k less than SGU.

 

[Zuckman]

Ya, SGU is very expensive. Also AUC and Ross are almost the same cost. These 'big 3' actually are good places. However, the cost is too much, so I looked at Saba where some of my friends are studying.

Saba comes up to ~150K total. The tuition is less than half of SGU. However, Saba definitely doesn't even come close to what SGU has. Saba looks like a run down elementary school. I'm still making my decision though. If Saba gets me a good job, then that's all that matters really.

What is the cost of living in Brisbane? How much do you end up paying per year?

Zuck

 

[JoeNamaMD]

In Brisbane, you could live fairly well on 15 to 20k AUD a year, assuming you are living alone. If you are sharing you could shave about 5k a year off your expenses. I spent about 12k during my first year.

If Saba looks like a run down elementary school it does not surprise me. Also if you plan to work in Canada, Australia would be far more highly regarded than Saba, AUC, or Ross. SGU, I feel is a good school but still its in the Caribbean. There is more of a stigma attached to you coming from one of those schools.

 

[Zuckman]

Ya, there is a large stigma when one attends a Caribbean med school. However, I don't think it really matters after you have done residency. I've talked to Caribbean doctor's and they all say that it's never an issue.

Zuck

 

[Swift Fox]

Ya, there is a large stigma when one attends a Caribbean med school. However, I don't think it really matters after you have done residency. I've talked to Caribbean doctor's and they all say that it's never an issue.

Zuck

Won't going to the Caribbean feel shallow and lack that sense of accomplishment, especially at a place like Saba???

Almost anyone could make the grades required for Saba...

I know your big on getting a job and that's all that matters. But are you sure you wouldn't be better off trying to improve your stats or trying for a medical school sponsored by a well respected government? Your training will be behind the bell curve. Everyone says this once they experience electives etc. If you want to be the best doctor you can be should you not try to get the best foundation knowledge possible? Saba is a very bad idea. Have you worked as hard as you have to go to a sub par institution and risk your future?

 

[Zuckman]

Swiftfox, good points. However, if one passes the USMLE steps and gets a good residency, that would be a great accomplishment as well.

I'm curious...what did your girlfriend think of Ross? Did she enjoy the experience? I've heard that there are safety issues at Ross and that pretty much half the class fails first year.

There have been several Saba grads matching in Canada. A few of which I know personally that got Anesthesiology. I'm not so sure if Saba matching is any worse than Australian matching in Canada. Even if the Australian grads do match better in Canada, I'm confident that the Saba grads match much better than the Australians in the US. Anyways, just trying to see what others think about my thoughts. Great advice guys, keep it coming...

Zuck

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Ya, there is a large stigma when one attends a Caribbean med school. However, I don't think it really matters after you have done residency. I've talked to Caribbean doctor's and they all say that it's never an issue.

Zuck

That stigma is what will keep you from entering a good residency program. Most of the people I know who took the USMLE have done well. I recently got my Step 1 score and I was pleased with my results. Many people in Oz, usually take the Step 1 in the middle of the third year of Medicine rather than at the end of year 2, they go into the exam with far more clinical knowledge which helps a lot on the test.
Caribbean schools have a lot of issues, if you have checked the boards, you will see a lot of them, licensing issues, high attrition(at UQ international attrition has been almost nil so far, all the internationals my year are finishing), subpar living conditions(people on some of those islands pay through the nose for an apartment with no running water or reliable electricity you will need lights when you are studying at night), moving around the country every four weeks or so to get to rotations. I can go on and on. And worst of all if you do not get a US residency, your degree is pretty much useless. At least half of the internationals here wind up staying in Oz, many of them initially planned to go back to North America. I don't see an issue with staying in Oz for medical students, that is another fine opportunity when you consider the lifestyle of Australia compared to the US and Canada.
Anyway its your life, do what you want with it.

 

[Swift Fox]

Swiftfox, good points. However, if one passes the USMLE steps and gets a good residency, that would be a great accomplishment as well.

I'm curious...what did your girlfriend think of Ross? Did she enjoy the experience? I've heard that there are safety issues at Ross and that pretty much half the class fails first year.

There have been several Saba grads matching in Canada. A few of which I know personally that got Anesthesiology. I'm not so sure if Saba matching is any worse than Australian matching in Canada. Even if the Australian grads do match better in Canada, I'm confident that the Saba grads match much better than the Australians in the US. Anyways, just trying to see what others think about my thoughts. Great advice guys, keep it coming...

Zuck

Passing the USMLE and getting residency is a big if... If I built a rocket ship to fly to the Moon that too would be a big accomplishment. However, my success in this endeavour is a big "if"....


My gf became friends with a young "professor" at Ross. This prof had just graduated from a Caribbean university. She supposedly had decent USMLE scores but had failed to match twice! So she now worked for Ross, forever "owned" by the medical school... Through one on one conversations with this individual my gf soon learned that matching is very risky business even for Americans! The program was also set up to cause attrition! Even if people achieved alright scores the program was not designed to graduate as many as it accepted, every year there were less seats! So basically half the class was being milked for money. The resources were also very limited and many people were getting physically sick on the island. Also random buildings on campus were also broken into on several occasions by the residents of the island... Remember this is Ross a school many would regard as superior to Saba.... What would you find at Saba!?

You are aware that the island of Saba only has one road... That's right, one road and a airport that is so hurting that only three types of bush aircraft are certified to land there... Oh and the island doesn't even have a grocery store! LOL Go check out "tourist" websites if you doubt me... So there is an indicator of the life you will be adopting... Don;t even get me started on the school itself... The official school website looks like it was tossed together my a high school kid that just finished comtech... Personally, I have no idea why people now say there are a big "four" Caribbean schools. I see Saba has a lot more in common with the smaller sketchy schools than SGU etc.

Sure a few people match. But how many don't???? No one knows this...


Your seriously comparing a medical education taught from a shack on a rock called Saba to that found in the developed nation of Australia????? They didn't even have cars on Saba until 30 years ago! Many Australian schools were founded before there was even electricity or fresh water on Saba! It is truly a ridiculous comparison! No matter what choice you make in the end I am certain you will one day realise considering Saba is simply flawed. My hope is that you don't realise this on the island of Saba...

Sorry to be harsh, but you are really potentially screwing yourself here... Are you even serious about considering Saba? Are you yanking our chain here????

You were accepted to UQ right?! Take UQ, many on Saba would probably sell a kidney to go there! Your so lucky to be accepted at UQ compared to all those poor souls stuck in the Caribbean. Don't toss this away!

 

[Swift Fox]

..

 

[Redlan]

..

So I have to say that this comparison, UQ-SABA, has a great deal of relevance for Canadians wanting to come back to Canada for a residency. There are a few points to consider:

1) There are match results provided by SABA of their med grads getting into FM as well as several competitive residencies in Canada like surgery, anesthesiology, orthopeadic surgery... etc On the other hand, not only are there no results for UQ but it seems impossible to find out what kind of residency specialities graduates from UQ have gotten into in Canada - JoeNamaMD if you could be of help here on this subject I would be utterly grateful as no one, not even a rep. at UQ, has benn able to help put my mind to rest concerning this question.

2) Reputation/Stigma - Perhaps the Caribbean is weaker on this side, but this is moot if more Canadians are successful at SABA at getting back to Canada/US than UQ (unless your ego can't handle some med student talking about where you did your undergrad degree when you return). However, sometimes this point does concern me.

3) Clinical Rotations - Both are equal on this level as both allow you to do them in Canada and the US.

4) Preparation for the MCEE/USMLE: here, from what I see, I think the Caribbean is better for getting back to Canada. However, I have hear that some of the questions at UQ are drawn from the same bank that the Canadian system uses.

5) 100,000$ - that would be the cost difference between UQ and SABA, the former being the more expensive.

I am in this situation myself and am having difficulties deciding. If I knew my chances at getting back were better in going to UQ I would not be hesitating - but, frankly, I have not seen this is the case yet. UQ is in a country and is ranked 33 over as a university by a reputable journal - SwiftFox has a point here. However, the Queensland imedical schools are increasing their enrolment of international med students dramatically and the Queensland goverment has not yet committed to increasing its internship spots at a parallel speed - point being, the option of staying in Australia is more at peril than it ever has been. So staying in Australia is not something that should be counted on. We should be looking to get back here - so, for myself I ask, how successful have prior Canadian UQ med students been at getting back to Canada and into what residency programs have they been accepted. Without this information I cannot make my decision. I have found no help regarding this question and, frankly, this worries me.

 

[Zuckman]

Swiftfox, great points once again.

I took a look at the Saba CD from my friend who got accepted. The CD is so poorly put together. It's much worse than the website. This is different than SGU though. Their CD was awesome and I've only heard good things from my friends there...but it's way too expensive...and it's still the Caribbean.

I think many great students attend Saba and do get great residencies. I am shocked though that Saba is even spoken as in the 'big 4'. It's not even close to SGU. I'm really thinking UQ is a MUCH better choice. My main concern was money (Saba being much cheaper). Hmm..there's still time to decide...we'll see...

Zuck

 

[rugbyMD]

From a financial point of view, Saba may be cheaper...but either way you're probably going to need a Line of credit...and with Saba you'll still need the dreaded co-signer....I'm having enough trouble getting my LOC from RBC for UQ...I'm gonna need both my parents to sign...and they actually have lots of assets/investments so getting the LOC isn't as easy as I thought...

 

[torontonerd]

....I'm gonna need both my parents to sign...and they actually have lots of assets/investments so getting the LOC isn't as easy as I thought...

if they have a lot of assets/investments, it should be fairly easy to get the LOC, ofc the paperwork is a hassle but the process is smooth.
my parents have no assets or investments in canada, we rent our home...so RBC will say no to giving me money...(i applied for the LOC but i know the answer already).
well anyway, with respect to saba and UQ. I dont care if i become the SAME doctor, holding the same position with the same salary- irrespective of coming from UQ or SABA, its the process of becoming a doctor that matters (to me atleast). A lot of ppl are stuck up on "what will i become"(ofc im not denying its importance) BUT what abt "how will i become, whatever i will be"
i dunno if u get what im trying to say but i wud NEVER choose saba or any carrib school over UQ or any established university medical school; i dont want to spend 4 years preparing for a test, i wanna spend 4 years trying to be the best doctor I can and enjoying that exp.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

If you are pretty definite that you want to work in Canada or the US, you should really look into DO schools rather than Aussie schools. DOs are accepted in both countries, they have no difficulties getting good residencies these days, as many PDs now look at them as equals to MDs.

I have actually seen AUC and SGU's campuses, SGU is fairly modern, but the living conditions on the island are subpar. AUC also has some issues, their library is pathetically tiny, St. Maarten is unbelievably expensive too. UQ facilities are top notch, they offer you a lot of chances to engage in research and other pursuits.

They do not track people who return to North America, because relatively few people go back there.
The ones who I have known have done fairly well at getting a residency though.

 

[Redlan]

So JoeNama,
Could you tell me what residencies your friends have gotten into from UQ?

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I recall one student getting into Radiology somewhere in Massachusetts, another one went Ob-gyn, I do not know anyone who went to Canada for residency.

I have said repeatedly if your goal is only to work in North America, DO schools are a better option than Australia.

I have a lot reservations about Caribbean medical schools, they can tell you what they want about residency matches, but you will find that many students do not graduate from these schools. A friend of mine who went to Ross told me more than half of his class failed out.

 

[Redlan]

JoeNama,
Thanks for the information about that one student. However, on your other topic of D.O.'s I must say that I have contacted numerous post-graduate universities in Canada and have been told that completing a D.O. degree in the U.S. is certainly not an efficient path for coming back to Canada (with 100's of applicants from Canadian schools as well as many allopathic U.S. schools, the few residency spots per university program will simply not go to the D.O's). There are some exceptions, but they are exceedingly rare - to the point of someone knowing some doctor in B.C. that has been given a licence to practice medicine. On top of that, a D.O. in these rare cases, can only get you into primary care. Perhaps this route is opening up as well, but not nearly as fast as even the Caribbean - chech out SABA's match list for this year; surgery at UofT, anesthesiology at...).

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I recall one student getting into Radiology somewhere in Massachusetts, another one went Ob-gyn, I do not know anyone who went to Canada for residency.

I have said repeatedly if your goal is only to work in North America, DO schools are a better option than Australia.

I have a lot reservations about Caribbean medical schools, they can tell you what they want about residency matches, but you will find that many students do not graduate from these schools. A friend of mine who went to Ross told me more than half of his class failed out.

I don't have any sources to back this up at the moment. However, I have heard that if a Canadian graduate stays in Australia and completes their specialty training here.. that the Canadian gov will accept the Australian post-graduate specialty Fellowships as equivalent to the Canadian specialty certification. So, if that's the case.. then (as a Canadian) going to Australia would seem to be a much safer option than applying to DO programs. Can anyone else confirm this?

So, if that's the case. Then going to Aus/NZ for med school AND postgraduate specialty training would also be a pathway back to Canada. Plus, this will provide you with a much greater opportunity to become accepted into your desired training program since it will open up a lot more positions for you to apply to. ... oh and by the way, residents in Aus get paid almost double what they get in the US and Canada.

 

[igcgnerd]

Family practioners or generalists trained in austrailia will have their training recognized in canada due to some formal agreement with the canadian board. I'm not sure about other specialties.

 

[giantaxon]

I have said repeatedly if your goal is only to work in North America, DO schools are a better option than Australia.

I also disagree. A DO degree is not a path to return to Canada.

I know some of the provinces have decided to treat a DO degree equally on paper. Yet, all this means in reality is that they can participate in CaRMS. This means nothing in terms of career success. It is no guarantee they will match.

Truth be told, very few DOs are matching in Canada. They simply are participating unsuccessfully. It might not be right, but that is the reality in Canada.

Canada is less open to foreign physicians. Especially foreign physicians which by definition have a different philosophy towards medicine.

Oz meds +Oz residency is a awesome combination for getting back to Canada. It can't even be compared to a DO which even on the best day will be severely limited in what residency positions they have a shot at...

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Actually DOs with ACGME residency training can practice medicine in Canada and a number of other countries. Its hard to match into Carms as a DO, Carms is IMG hostile to everyone except US MDs.

I actually met an American DO who practices in Sydney.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I actually met an American DO who practices in Sydney.

I've met another one in NZ: Tana Fishman, MS, DO, FRNZCGP. She is an American trained FP who is the current chair of GP resident education for the New Zealand College of GPs.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

In my humble opinion, I think it would be foolish to pick a Caribbean school over one in Australia. I actually knew a USyd graduate who went to SGU for a year left and went to USyd. No he did not transfer, he started from square one, he got a ridiculously high USMLE score.

Oh I forgot to add that the lifestyle in Australia is much better than North America. Physicians work more normal hours. In some fields physicians here earn more than those in the US in Canada, especially GPs. Most GPs earn over 250k AUD a year in Australia, the typical family physician in the US earns around 150k a year in US Dollars. Canadian GPs usually earn around 100k CAD. Both Canadian and US Doctors work more and most I have met are MISERABLE. It was a shock for me to see medical registrars(residents in the US and Canada) go home at 5pm in the afternoon in Oz. Registrars in Australia rarely work more than 60 hours a week.

 

[nibash]

Hi Zuckma,
Hi, I certainly agree with you. Your advice is really very helpful for us.
Thanks a lot!

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I personally would not pick a lesser known Caribbean school like Saba over a major research school like UQ, even SGU has its own issues, there was a very derogatory article about SGU "buying" clinical rotations in NYC hospitals.