Returning to medicine several years after leaving residency

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BackToMedicine1

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I left my psychiatry residency 5+ years ago at the end of my intern year to pursue other paths. I left on good terms with my PD, there were no performance or mental health issues or anything like that, and I have a medical license, although I have not practiced medicine since then.

I'm now in a position where I feel committed to medicine, and I'm thinking about returning, preferably to IM. My question is, how would I go about doing this? What would a typical path back into medicine look like for someone in my position, what are the first steps I should be taking?

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This is honestly probably not realistic. 5 years out from practicing medicine and never completed training, I don't think you're going to find a program to take you.

If you really want to explore this, you need to get recent clinical experience and LORs. Maybe consider one of the assistant/associate physician programs (I know of one program in Missouri, maybe other states), if you can get connected, that would be one path.
 
It's likely going to be VERY difficult to get back into a residency after this long of a hiatus, if not impossible. You haven't seen clinical medicine in 5 years, let alone practice it. Programs are going to see you as very risky and would probably much rather take a new FMG than someone who is so far removed from medicine. If you really want to practice medicine and already have a license, your best bet might be to do some CME/training in a very niche area of medicine that's cash-based and open your own shop. It's unlikely that any legitimate clinic will hire you due to the assumed increased liability.
 
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I left my psychiatry residency 5+ years ago at the end of my intern year to pursue other paths. I left on good terms with my PD, there were no performance or mental health issues or anything like that, and I have a medical license, although I have not practiced medicine since then.

I'm now in a position where I feel committed to medicine, and I'm thinking about returning, preferably to IM. My question is, how would I go about doing this? What would a typical path back into medicine look like for someone in my position, what are the first steps I should be taking?
How did the other paths turn out? Not asking in a snooty type way, honest question. A lot of people who get burned out of medicine feel it's ok to take time off and somehow they will return. That path is very challenging. Despite the negatives of Medicine, it is a pretty reasonable career once we complete all the BSy stuff so still very competitive. It's unlikely that most/any program would take you. It's kind of like starting all over. You might want to pursue a non-clinical option - I think that's your best bet. I think it's unlikely that a program would take a chance, particularly for IM. I would say IM is probably the last thing you should apply for as the amount of knowledge you need for IM is massive. What made you want to come back to Medicine?
 
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I'm going to agree that it would be very difficult to get back into clinical medicine, but on a more positive note I think if you get clinical medicine experience and make connections it's possible. IMGs do it afterall even 5 yrs out from graduation, but it is not an easy process by any means. Look for new programs or programs with off cycle positions in non- competitive locations.

Also, I'm curious what you've been doing for the last 5 yrs and if any of it was clinical or related to public health/technology (e.g. possible Preventative Medicine applications). Also, curious about longterm goals and the switch from psych to IM, what kind of setting do you want to work in?
 
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I think it is technically possible, but as others have pointed out, is quite the undertaking.

The big thing is you need recent relevant clinical experience that can net you positive LORs from some attendings. There are big hurdles, some of which have to do with medicolegal liability concerns. Having anyone with an MD even take the role of an MA in an office, taking vitals and reviewing med lists, besides not being impressive clinical experience, even having you do that much is inviting more liability than the MA doing it. Getting an MD is like becoming the best target ever for a lawsuit because anything goes wrong, the case can be more easily made you should know better and can be held more accountable. A lot of docs don't want to invite that into their practice. The good news is you have a license, but it will still be a challenge for you to get the kind of clinical experience and letters that can support you.

The other thing is, despite all this time, you will need the support of your prior PD. I also see a hurdle in washing out of (was it psych? Or FM?) and then wanting to go IM. You will need whatever support you can from your old program and your Alma mater med school, and any networking you can get, and clinical experience, and letters, AND be very strategic in where and how you apply and what specialty it is.

The other huge piece of this, can be networking. Most of the "impossible" to return or get a spot cases that get an unexpected happy ending, this is often due to networking.

Some have managed to get the right research position at the right institution that then was able to be a foot in the door to a program. I know this is technically possible with an N=1, but this was an FMG with an otherwise impressive resume doing research at an impressive institution for about 5 years, and I know networking and a spouse was involved.

What is your financial situation? Because the more you are able to do for free or very little pay, the better your odds of finding opportunities (like research, volunteering) that might start filling out your CV appropriately.

A lot of people need to spend 2-5 years doing what it takes to build the above to the point where they have a shot at one of the less traditional openings. It's not impossible to rebuild your CV to the point you could go through the match, although 5 years out from grad is the magic cut off for many programs where they can put into the Match algorithm to ignore all apps from people with a grad year 5 years out. The reality is that you need networking and grunt work to find the right openings that exist outside the Match.

Some of that is reaching out individually to programs you might be competitive for (smaller community) at the "right time of year" for when unexpected openings happen. To my knowledge the short staffing moments usually pop up after the Scramble, before people start in July/Aug, and then later in fall/winter when there seems to be people washing out of programs. But you will still need to be an attractive candidate to fill those spots, hence you need to get some years of clinical work and/or networking and good recent LORs under your belt to be considered.

I would approach this as, if it will happen at all, it will take years to build to where you need. Walking away from a program where you are not forced out, you will need to show grunt level dedication for years to convince a program you will not walk away again. It's a double bind because being forced out of a residency for other reasons (like health) while it may not reflect on dedication per se, makes programs nervous but for slightly different reasons. Point is, regardless, if you are going to try to crawl back, it will be a crawling back process and they want to see a multi-year track record of dedication and success in clinical medicine. For most of us, med school was exactly that for getting us a residency spot. Once you walk away for years, to get another spot you kind of have to prove yourself again.

And understand, that whatever you do for years for try to get the experience, letters, contacts that you need, it may not work, or you may have to keep at it for a while. Lots of sank costs in a lot of ways.

I wish you luck. It isn't necessarily impossible, but it isn't a quick fix by any means.
 
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I'm now in a position where I feel committed to medicine, and I'm thinking about returning, preferably to IM.

I do feel bad for you but saying you are now "committed" sounds like your other endeavor didn't pan out and you are ready for the consolation prize.

What would a typical path back into medicine look like for someone in my position?

There is no "typical path" into residency 5 years after leaving. Sorry to say but you had your shot.
 
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If you completed a full intern year in good standing, you could see if maybe you'd qualify for one of the occupational medicine/preventative medicine/aerospace medicine residencies. They're all a bit nontraditional at baseline and you'd technically meet all the requirements.
 
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If you completed a full intern year in good standing, you could see if maybe you'd qualify for one of the occupational medicine/preventative medicine/aerospace medicine residencies. They're all a bit nontraditional at baseline and you'd technically meet all the requirements.

This is my advice as well. I'm not sure if a psych intern year would technically work as a general intern year (some psych intern years have a lot psych months maybe?). Either way, look into it.
 
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Traditional medicine will be quite unforgiving of you in context of the above.

Now, let's temper that with the realities of what medicine is these days.

We have PAs, and they literally change jobs at the drop of hat and do things they never even rotated through as a student.
We have ARNPs doing online schools and opening their own practices.

At this point, go open your own basic General Practice, and grow it with what you feel comfortable doing. Devote lots of time to reading things like Cecils and the other big IM text books. Do lots of other CME courses and get a subscription to UpToDate.

Once things get running, you won't want to go back to residency!

Go build your cash practice how you want it.
 
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Traditional medicine will be quite unforgiving of you in context of the above.

Now, let's temper that with the realities of what medicine is these days.

We have PAs, and they literally change jobs at the drop of hat and do things they never even rotated through as a student.
We have ARNPs doing online schools and opening their own practices.

At this point, go open your own basic General Practice, and grow it with what you feel comfortable doing. Devote lots of time to reading things like Cecils and the other big IM text books. Do lots of other CME courses and get a subscription to UpToDate.

Once things get running, you won't want to go back to residency!

Go build your cash practice how you want it.

The problem with being a general practioner in 2021 is two-fold -

1) Safety - you are practicing as a physician with an unrestricted license but your training isn't complete. Yes, you're better trained than a PA or an NP - but your training was always geared towards preparing you for the next step, and you never finished the last 2+ years necessary to practice your field. Can you make up for that with significant reading, conferences, etc? Maybe. But sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. Particularly when your intern year wasn't even in IM/FM - it was in psych, where the typical intern might have a month of ambulatory medicine clinic *total* (with the remainder being inpatient medicine, neurology, and the first few months of actual psych training).

2) Reimbursement - you'll basically be able to get credentialed with traditional medicare... and that's it. Very few insurance companies will credential you if you're not board eligible/certified, which means you won't be able to see patients who have that insurance.
 
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The problem with being a general practioner in 2021 is two-fold -

1) Safety - you are practicing as a physician with an unrestricted license but your training isn't complete. Yes, you're better trained than a PA or an NP - but your training was always geared towards preparing you for the next step, and you never finished the last 2+ years necessary to practice your field. Can you make up for that with significant reading, conferences, etc? Maybe. But sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. Particularly when your intern year wasn't even in IM/FM - it was in psych, where the typical intern might have a month of ambulatory medicine clinic *total* (with the remainder being inpatient medicine, neurology, and the first few months of actual psych training).

2) Reimbursement - you'll basically be able to get credentialed with traditional medicare... and that's it. Very few insurance companies will credential you if you're not board eligible/certified, which means you won't be able to see patients who have that insurance.
Although OP can do what is more and more sadly frequent these days - where a "business" person opens up some sort of medical practice and hires other physicians, midlevels. Obviously that takes capital. but not uncommon. OP if he/she had $$, could do that.
 
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The problem with being a general practioner in 2021 is two-fold -

1) Safety - you are practicing as a physician with an unrestricted license but your training isn't complete. Yes, you're better trained than a PA or an NP - but your training was always geared towards preparing you for the next step, and you never finished the last 2+ years necessary to practice your field. Can you make up for that with significant reading, conferences, etc? Maybe. But sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. Particularly when your intern year wasn't even in IM/FM - it was in psych, where the typical intern might have a month of ambulatory medicine clinic *total* (with the remainder being inpatient medicine, neurology, and the first few months of actual psych training).

2) Reimbursement - you'll basically be able to get credentialed with traditional medicare... and that's it. Very few insurance companies will credential you if you're not board eligible/certified, which means you won't be able to see patients who have that insurance.
This right here is part of the problem with current physician group think. The blinders are so thick against MD/DO graduates. The paradigm that training has to be what it currently is and no room for variance. If this was so imperative where was the uproar in all the medical societies and every physician when ARNPs and PA started out? Then expanded scope of practice, then independent practice and now even renaming themselves to Physician Associate.

We as physicians cannot continue to tear down MD/DO grads, especially those with some residency training and an independent license! Not too many decades ago there were still GPs in mass. One of the worst things we did as physicians was create a FM specialty. We should have preserved GP as GP and not created an FM specialty. Doing so has contributed to this current narrow thinking.

*As evidence I present the bulk of the British commonwealth system that utilizes MBBS / MBCh and those graduates as ~intern year trained are delivering care en mass.
*I also present the current ARNP/PA in US which Physicians have the oddest blinder for. There are ARNPs "reading" and billing for home sleep studies as my most recent discovery of WOW.
*I also now present DC and ND, these folks have trivial medical training and have strategically maneuvered "for billing purposes" to be reclassified as physicians with medicare. Some states actively let them refer to themselves as physicians too. In my state NDs are prescribing everything, benzos, zyprexa for bipolar/schizophrenia, hormones for gender transitions, etc. Infusions with all sorts of cocktails. Venture over to the Pain med threads, there are DCs doing stellate ganglion blocks for PTSD!!! The wild west of medical treatment is here, its on front door step and ramming hard with a military grade ram.

Had we not created a FM specialty GPs would still be ubiquitous and these folks would have easily been able to fill in the roles of PA/ARNP were intended. The system also wouldn't have put up these other billing road blocks with insurance companies, either. We would have all been better off. I continue to advocate for the end of step/level III for state licensure. And end to any GME as part of licensure and permit all MD/DO graduates to seek independent license after graduation. The rise of graduates and increasing numbers going unmatched is just a travesty, this shouldn't be happening. On the other end of the spectrum we have EM starting to show unemployment, and will only get worse. Rad Onc is sinking. Pathology is somewhat sinking. It stands to reason these issues are not immune to impacting other specialties either. Are we to continue to believe that an EM doc shall never be competent in practicing anything outside of EM? That they too have to do an entire new fellowship or residency simply to practice? Hogwash. Or even that a Cardiologist or Endocrinologist or GI can't practice general IM?

The OP, is a licensed physician, they've run the gauntlet enough and deserve respect and deserve, neigh earned the right to practice medicine and are licensed. Now they should go use it. If DC/ND are doing cash practices on every corner and doing fine, so too can this potential GP. But positively, this GP has had the right training and will have a better grasp of knowing when to refer - because they are a physician. They won't be contributing to the wild west atmosphere out there. I believe your assertion of safety as an issue in 2021 is just plain wrong.

Taking insurance isn't all that important. I'm Psychiatry and only do it because in my local area it pays some what ok and I'll be able to make more than if I just do cash only. Many places in the country, medicare is the best payer! Heck the GP could have a thriving practice just doing medicare! If the person isn't credentialed with commercial insurance, so? They can still see those patients and charge cash, or even provide super bills the patient then in turns submits to the insurance as OON themselves. There are plenty of DPC/Concierge/cash/retainer practices and they are doing just fine. Not taking insurance means so much less overhead, less office staff and even if fees are less than insurance, can actually mean a higher gross despite lower net income.

We try to tell these non-BC/BE docs they are in a cage surround by a massive wall and its not worth being in that tiny cage. No, the security cameras should be pointed in the other direction and view should be different. They have an opportunity, different ones than us, that cage is actually keeping us in, not the other way around. Us under the thumbs of admin, insurance bureaucracy, Maintenance of Certification crud, hospital privilege's politics, etc.
 
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Although OP can do what is more and more sadly frequent these days - where a "business" person opens up some sort of medical practice and hires other physicians, midlevels. Obviously that takes capital. but not uncommon. OP if he/she had $$, could do that.
And there's a lot of private pay stuff if you're enterprising. Cosmetic things and the like.
 
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This right here is part of the problem with current physician group think. The blinders are so thick against MD/DO graduates. The paradigm that training has to be what it currently is and no room for variance. If this was so imperative where was the uproar in all the medical societies and every physician when ARNPs and PA started out? Then expanded scope of practice, then independent practice and now even renaming themselves to Physician Associate.

We as physicians cannot continue to tear down MD/DO grads, especially those with some residency training and an independent license! Not too many decades ago there were still GPs in mass. One of the worst things we did as physicians was create a FM specialty. We should have preserved GP as GP and not created an FM specialty. Doing so has contributed to this current narrow thinking.

*As evidence I present the bulk of the British commonwealth system that utilizes MBBS / MBCh and those graduates as ~intern year trained are delivering care en mass.
*I also present the current ARNP/PA in US which Physicians have the oddest blinder for. There are ARNPs "reading" and billing for home sleep studies as my most recent discovery of WOW.
*I also now present DC and ND, these folks have trivial medical training and have strategically maneuvered "for billing purposes" to be reclassified as physicians with medicare. Some states actively let them refer to themselves as physicians too. In my state NDs are prescribing everything, benzos, zyprexa for bipolar/schizophrenia, hormones for gender transitions, etc. Infusions with all sorts of cocktails. Venture over to the Pain med threads, there are DCs doing stellate ganglion blocks for PTSD!!! The wild west of medical treatment is here, its on front door step and ramming hard with a military grade ram.

Had we not created a FM specialty GPs would still be ubiquitous and these folks would have easily been able to fill in the roles of PA/ARNP were intended. The system also wouldn't have put up these other billing road blocks with insurance companies, either. We would have all been better off. I continue to advocate for the end of step/level III for state licensure. And end to any GME as part of licensure and permit all MD/DO graduates to seek independent license after graduation. The rise of graduates and increasing numbers going unmatched is just a travesty, this shouldn't be happening. On the other end of the spectrum we have EM starting to show unemployment, and will only get worse. Rad Onc is sinking. Pathology is somewhat sinking. It stands to reason these issues are not immune to impacting other specialties either. Are we to continue to believe that an EM doc shall never be competent in practicing anything outside of EM? That they too have to do an entire new fellowship or residency simply to practice? Hogwash. Or even that a Cardiologist or Endocrinologist or GI can't practice general IM?

The OP, is a licensed physician, they've run the gauntlet enough and deserve respect and deserve, neigh earned the right to practice medicine and are licensed. Now they should go use it. If DC/ND are doing cash practices on every corner and doing fine, so too can this potential GP. But positively, this GP has had the right training and will have a better grasp of knowing when to refer - because they are a physician. They won't be contributing to the wild west atmosphere out there. I believe your assertion of safety as an issue in 2021 is just plain wrong.

Taking insurance isn't all that important. I'm Psychiatry and only do it because in my local area it pays some what ok and I'll be able to make more than if I just do cash only. Many places in the country, medicare is the best payer! Heck the GP could have a thriving practice just doing medicare! If the person isn't credentialed with commercial insurance, so? They can still see those patients and charge cash, or even provide super bills the patient then in turns submits to the insurance as OON themselves. There are plenty of DPC/Concierge/cash/retainer practices and they are doing just fine. Not taking insurance means so much less overhead, less office staff and even if fees are less than insurance, can actually mean a higher gross despite lower net income.

We try to tell these non-BC/BE docs they are in a cage surround by a massive wall and its not worth being in that tiny cage. No, the security cameras should be pointed in the other direction and view should be different. They have an opportunity, different ones than us, that cage is actually keeping us in, not the other way around. Us under the thumbs of admin, insurance bureaucracy, Maintenance of Certification crud, hospital privilege's politics, etc.
That's all well and good... but yelling at the sky and wishing the world wasn't this way isn't going to help the OP.

If they are somehow able to go and set up shop as a GP and make it work, more power to them.. But in regards to the original question of going back for IM training, I think that ship has sailed.
 
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I’m still waiting to hear what amazing opportunity that the OP sacrificed his psychiatry residency for and how it worked out. This is why anyone who thinks about quitting medical school or residency needs to really think about it long and hard. Like it or not, once you get off the medical training hamster wheel it’s really hard and many times impossible to get back on. That’s just how the game is played. Whether it’s a good or fair design is a different discussion.
 
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This right here is part of the problem with current physician group think. The blinders are so thick against MD/DO graduates. The paradigm that training has to be what it currently is and no room for variance. If this was so imperative where was the uproar in all the medical societies and every physician when ARNPs and PA started out? Then expanded scope of practice, then independent practice and now even renaming themselves to Physician Associate.

We as physicians cannot continue to tear down MD/DO grads, especially those with some residency training and an independent license! Not too many decades ago there were still GPs in mass. One of the worst things we did as physicians was create a FM specialty. We should have preserved GP as GP and not created an FM specialty. Doing so has contributed to this current narrow thinking.

*As evidence I present the bulk of the British commonwealth system that utilizes MBBS / MBCh and those graduates as ~intern year trained are delivering care en mass.
*I also present the current ARNP/PA in US which Physicians have the oddest blinder for. There are ARNPs "reading" and billing for home sleep studies as my most recent discovery of WOW.
*I also now present DC and ND, these folks have trivial medical training and have strategically maneuvered "for billing purposes" to be reclassified as physicians with medicare. Some states actively let them refer to themselves as physicians too. In my state NDs are prescribing everything, benzos, zyprexa for bipolar/schizophrenia, hormones for gender transitions, etc. Infusions with all sorts of cocktails. Venture over to the Pain med threads, there are DCs doing stellate ganglion blocks for PTSD!!! The wild west of medical treatment is here, its on front door step and ramming hard with a military grade ram.

Had we not created a FM specialty GPs would still be ubiquitous and these folks would have easily been able to fill in the roles of PA/ARNP were intended. The system also wouldn't have put up these other billing road blocks with insurance companies, either. We would have all been better off. I continue to advocate for the end of step/level III for state licensure. And end to any GME as part of licensure and permit all MD/DO graduates to seek independent license after graduation. The rise of graduates and increasing numbers going unmatched is just a travesty, this shouldn't be happening. On the other end of the spectrum we have EM starting to show unemployment, and will only get worse. Rad Onc is sinking. Pathology is somewhat sinking. It stands to reason these issues are not immune to impacting other specialties either. Are we to continue to believe that an EM doc shall never be competent in practicing anything outside of EM? That they too have to do an entire new fellowship or residency simply to practice? Hogwash. Or even that a Cardiologist or Endocrinologist or GI can't practice general IM?

The OP, is a licensed physician, they've run the gauntlet enough and deserve respect and deserve, neigh earned the right to practice medicine and are licensed. Now they should go use it. If DC/ND are doing cash practices on every corner and doing fine, so too can this potential GP. But positively, this GP has had the right training and will have a better grasp of knowing when to refer - because they are a physician. They won't be contributing to the wild west atmosphere out there. I believe your assertion of safety as an issue in 2021 is just plain wrong.

Taking insurance isn't all that important. I'm Psychiatry and only do it because in my local area it pays some what ok and I'll be able to make more than if I just do cash only. Many places in the country, medicare is the best payer! Heck the GP could have a thriving practice just doing medicare! If the person isn't credentialed with commercial insurance, so? They can still see those patients and charge cash, or even provide super bills the patient then in turns submits to the insurance as OON themselves. There are plenty of DPC/Concierge/cash/retainer practices and they are doing just fine. Not taking insurance means so much less overhead, less office staff and even if fees are less than insurance, can actually mean a higher gross despite lower net income.

We try to tell these non-BC/BE docs they are in a cage surround by a massive wall and its not worth being in that tiny cage. No, the security cameras should be pointed in the other direction and view should be different. They have an opportunity, different ones than us, that cage is actually keeping us in, not the other way around. Us under the thumbs of admin, insurance bureaucracy, Maintenance of Certification crud, hospital privilege's politics, etc.
Please Mr. Psychiatrist, tell me again how my entire field is unnecessary from your vast knowledge of primary care.

Most of your post is utter rubbish. Of course cardiologists can practice general IM. They had to do an IM residency (and I believe be board certified in IM, at least initially). Same with all IM subspecialties.

EM physicians absolutely can practice outside of EM. I'm unaware of any state that gives specialty-limited licenses. That's why FPs and internists can practice in the ED and EPs can, if they wish, practice primary care. But just because we can do a thing it doesn't mean that we should. Legally speaking in my state, I could go work in an ED tomorrow if I wanted to. But that would be a terrible idea because I am not trained in emergency medicine. Patients would absolutely die because of my lack of training in that area. That's why different specialties exist in the first place.

It makes no sense to complain about non-physicians being able to do things and use that to argue why untrained physicians should be able to do them. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the shysters and undertrained practitioners.
 
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Please Mr. Psychiatrist, tell me again how my entire field is unnecessary from your vast knowledge of primary care.

Most of your post is utter rubbish. Of course cardiologists can practice general IM. They had to do an IM residency (and I believe be board certified in IM, at least initially). Same with all IM subspecialties.

EM physicians absolutely can practice outside of EM. I'm unaware of any state that gives specialty-limited licenses. That's why FPs and internists can practice in the ED and EPs can, if they wish, practice primary care. But just because we can do a thing it doesn't mean that we should. Legally speaking in my state, I could go work in an ED tomorrow if I wanted to. But that would be a terrible idea because I am not trained in emergency medicine. Patients would absolutely die because of my lack of training in that area. That's why different specialties exist in the first place.

It makes no sense to complain about non-physicians being able to do things and use that to argue why untrained physicians should be able to do them. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the shysters and undertrained practitioners.

I mean you can hold yourself to that standard all day long. Doesn't mean other people are and it doesn't mean what Sushi mentioned isn't happening right now. I'm pretty open about what a lot of what we're doing in medicine right now is basically guild protection (which helps those of us in the guild but not those who aren't lucky enough to make it through all the hoops to join the master craftsmen at the top). Guild protection is almost certainly going to break down in the near future as more and more states make it easier and easier for non-physicians to essentially do what we do without our involvement. Do you really think OP is less qualified than online grad RN to MSN BOARD CERTIFIED FM NP who's going to go out with his/her shiny new diploma tomorrow and set up a FM medi-spa or "mental health" telepsych clinic? I'd count any patients that can get diverted to someone who at least completed a year of real residency a win. Instead of just discouraging OP about why he can't join the guild, I think it's reasonable to present alternative paths.

"Doing things" is the only thing that matters. Ever heard the "practice to the top of my license" spiel? Nobody is arguing that someone should go see a physician who's only completed a year of residency over a physician who has completed an entire residency, or that physician should be able to do all the things that a board eligible physician should do. However, to somehow ignore the fact that there are thousands of graduates this year who will be able to have an almost unlimited scope of practice in "mursing" as soon as they graduate from their MSN/DNP programs which they direct entered from undergrad and essentially can function as attending physicians in half the states in this country for all practical purposes and suggest that OP will provide an inferior level of care to these people is ridiculous in my opinion. Sitting around pontificating about how "you don't know what you don't know because year 2 and 3 of residency are what really make or break ya" doesn't really help anyone.

Also, I'm not sure why you don't know this, but FM/IM docs would practice in emergency rooms all the time without any additional EM specific training. Pretty commonplace actually in rural areas. Only recently because of the glut of EM trained residents and the popularity of that specialty has it really become a thing for every ED to try to have a EM trained person there...they could just never get them out there before. Very common in peds EDs as well up until recently for many of the patients to be seen by peds hospitalists who had no additional training in "emergency medicine" outside of normal peds ED rotations in residency.

Hell the peds interventional cardiology attending I rotated with literally taught himself interventional pediatric cardiology back in the day. There was no such thing as an "interventional cardiology" fellowship...he'd just go start cathing kids who needed interventions and learning it himself.
 
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I mean you can hold yourself to that standard all day long. Doesn't mean other people are and it doesn't mean what Sushi mentioned isn't happening right now. I'm pretty open about what a lot of what we're doing in medicine right now is basically guild protection (which helps those of us in the guild but not those who aren't lucky enough to make it through all the hoops to join the master craftsmen at the top). Guild protection is almost certainly going to break down in the near future as more and more states make it easier and easier for non-physicians to essentially do what we do without our involvement. Do you really think OP is less qualified than online grad RN to MSN BOARD CERTIFIED FM NP who's going to go out with his/her shiny new diploma tomorrow and set up a FM medi-spa or "mental health" telepsych clinic? I'd count any patients that can get diverted to someone who at least completed a year of real residency a win. Instead of just discouraging OP about why he can't join the guild, I think it's reasonable to present alternative paths.

Also, I'm not sure why you don't know this, but FM/IM docs would practice in emergency rooms all the time without any additional EM specific training. Pretty commonplace actually in rural areas. Only recently because of the glut of EM trained residents and the popularity of that specialty has it really become a thing for every ED to try to have a EM trained person there...they could just never get them out there before. Very common in peds EDs as well up until recently for many of the patients to be seen by peds hospitalists who had no additional training in "emergency medicine" outside of normal peds ED rotations in residency.

Hell the peds interventional cardiology attending I rotated with in residency literally taught himself interventional pediatric cardiology back in the day. There was no such thing as an "interventional cardiology" fellowship...he'd just go start cathing kids who needed interventions and learning it himself.
No one is saying he/she can't "join the guild". Plenty (if not a majority) of states will license you after intern year. My state does and I both took advantage of that to moonlight in residency and fully support it continuing to be an option. Your career options as a GP are more limited, but there is work to be found once you're licensed. Not sure what you read that made you think I was against GPs being a thing.

What I did (and do) object to is the idea that FM as a specialty shouldn't have ever been created. That both shows fairly impressive ignorance about the difference between FPs and GPs and is insulting towards those of us who chose this field.

Obviously I'm aware that non-EM Trained doctors practice in the ED all the time. If hospitals are willing to hire them, that's their business. Given a choice, I personally would choose an EM trained physician over non-EM 99% of the time for me and my family but the hiring is between individual physicians and hospitals. There's no law prohibiting such things and I am fine with that. Rural is always a different story, lack of resources leaves you with the question of "do I let this doctor do/treat X because we have literally no one else or do we just make everyone drive 5 hours to get treatment from the proper specialist?"

Again, just because other people cut corners doesn't mean we should. There's a local chiropractor who uses fruit smoothies to treat cancer. That doesn't mean that I should offer BS treatments for cancer... or even treat cancer in the first place. Oncology fellowships exist for a reason.

There's also a big difference in pioneering something instead of going to a fellowship that doesn't exist yet and just deciding that you're going to become a specialist because you think you can.
 
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I’m not convinced that going back to residency is impossible for the OP. I was only in the general psychiatry program for two years, and we had two people join the program who hadn’t practiced in years. It was a competitive program but has PGY2 entry spots every year. One had completed training in a different specialty and one had started psychiatry and later joined our program with no support from the prior program. Since the OP left the program on good terms, it probably makes sense to ask them for guidance on reapplying.
 
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What I did (and do) object to is the idea that FM as a specialty shouldn't have ever been created. That both shows fairly impressive ignorance about the difference between FPs and GPs and is insulting towards those of us who chose this field.
CalvnHobs outlined the argument of guild protection which I believe was a more refined articulate way of describing the phenomena of what happened as GPs in America got phased out with FM.

These days, there are some quality FM residencies where breadth of training is truly fantastic and these physicians are prepared to do OB, c-sections, maybe even appendectomies, Colonoscopies, etc. Typically in areas where critical care access hospitals exist. But commonly, FM in places that aren't in the land of Critical Care access hospital catchments, FM docs aren't practicing any different than what a GP would. So is my insult really shedding light on this discrepancy that people perhaps were 'forced' into a few extra years of training because of a conceptual guild? I take issue of the policies that minimized and disenfranchised GPs and pushed them out our health system, but failed to recognize the void they left created the perfect atmosphere for ARNPs /PAs to step in. Thus my comments, FM shouldn't exist. Could there have been a system from the start with FM existing and embracing of GPs, yes, but that didn't happen.

Family Medicine Specialist is also a bit of a head scratcher? What is the specialization? How is it the GPs of what, more than half the world, are doing the exact same job, and propping up health systems that certain political/lobbying/societies here in the US state they want to emulate for lower per capita spending for same health outcomes?

But I am open, please spell out exactly what differentiates FM from GP. What the value of FM is over GP. In metric, perhaps health system savings in less referrals? Perhaps less lab orders? Perhaps less hospitalizations? Greater efficiency and more panel size? Anything, please educate / convince me.
 
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CalvnHobs outlined the argument of guild protection which I believe was a more refined articulate way of describing the phenomena of what happened as GPs in America got phased out with FM.

These days, there are some quality FM residencies where breadth of training is truly fantastic and these physicians are prepared to do OB, c-sections, maybe even appendectomies, Colonoscopies, etc. Typically in areas where critical care access hospitals exist. But commonly, FM in places that aren't in the land of Critical Care access hospital catchments, FM docs aren't practicing any different than what a GP would. So is my insult really shedding light on this discrepancy that people perhaps were 'forced' into a few extra years of training because of a conceptual guild? I take issue of the policies that minimized and disenfranchised GPs and pushed them out our health system, but failed to recognize the void they left created the perfect atmosphere for ARNPs /PAs to step in. Thus my comments, FM shouldn't exist. Could there have been a system from the start with FM existing and embracing of GPs, yes, but that didn't happen.

Family Medicine Specialist is also a bit of a head scratcher? What is the specialization? How is it the GPs of what, more than half the world, are doing the exact same job, and propping up health systems that certain political/lobbying/societies here in the US state they want to emulate for lower per capita spending for same health outcomes?

But I am open, please spell out exactly what differentiates FM from GP. What the value of FM is over GP. In metric, perhaps health system savings in less referrals? Perhaps less lab orders? Perhaps less hospitalizations? Greater efficiency and more panel size? Anything, please educate / convince me.
GP is FM essentially. Problem is that Medicine is a money making business from inception. There is no point to burden people with a useless BA/BS if they are going into medicine. Have people go from high school to med school, save thousands on useless undergrad and if people don't get into med school then they can pursue a BA/BS. Don't have med students take pointless courses - don't have med students take never ending pointless tests that do nothing but line the pockets of random societies. USMLE 1-3 is a total and utter waste of time. There is no point and no value. Oral boards - no point and no value.
 
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I'd support the removal of BA/BS entrance requirement. Positively there are a tiny few of schools that have adopted fast track of Bachelors/Med school, of 3 years undergrad, and rare 2 years. I think a reversion to a MBBS model would do well. Maybe even reverse the "doctorate me too movement" of all the allied health professions.

The other combo out there is Med school / FM is 6 years rather than 7.

I'd say still keep step 1-2, but ditch level/step 3.

Oral boards are thankfully already phasing out for much of the specialties. Not sure who the holds still are. I think a few surgical?
 
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I'd support the removal of BA/BS entrance requirement. Positively there are a tiny few of schools that have adopted fast track of Bachelors/Med school, of 3 years undergrad, and rare 2 years. I think a reversion to a MBBS model would do well. Maybe even reverse the "doctorate me too movement" of all the allied health professions.

The other combo out there is Med school / FM is 6 years rather than 7.

I'd say still keep step 1-2, but ditch level/step 3.

Oral boards are thankfully already phasing out for much of the specialties. Not sure who the holds still are. I think a few surgical?

PM&R is still having oral boards. Of all the pointless exams I have ever taken that is probably the worst? And at $1900 or so it is unexcusable.
 
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CalvnHobs outlined the argument of guild protection which I believe was a more refined articulate way of describing the phenomena of what happened as GPs in America got phased out with FM.

These days, there are some quality FM residencies where breadth of training is truly fantastic and these physicians are prepared to do OB, c-sections, maybe even appendectomies, Colonoscopies, etc. Typically in areas where critical care access hospitals exist. But commonly, FM in places that aren't in the land of Critical Care access hospital catchments, FM docs aren't practicing any different than what a GP would. So is my insult really shedding light on this discrepancy that people perhaps were 'forced' into a few extra years of training because of a conceptual guild? I take issue of the policies that minimized and disenfranchised GPs and pushed them out our health system, but failed to recognize the void they left created the perfect atmosphere for ARNPs /PAs to step in. Thus my comments, FM shouldn't exist. Could there have been a system from the start with FM existing and embracing of GPs, yes, but that didn't happen.

Family Medicine Specialist is also a bit of a head scratcher? What is the specialization? How is it the GPs of what, more than half the world, are doing the exact same job, and propping up health systems that certain political/lobbying/societies here in the US state they want to emulate for lower per capita spending for same health outcomes?

But I am open, please spell out exactly what differentiates FM from GP. What the value of FM is over GP. In metric, perhaps health system savings in less referrals? Perhaps less lab orders? Perhaps less hospitalizations? Greater efficiency and more panel size? Anything, please educate / convince me.
No, your insult is in thinking that GPs are equivalent to FPs. They are not.

Our value is that we are better trained primary care physicians. As someone who is an FP (unlike either of you) and remembers where I was at the end of intern year compared to the end of 3rd year, I can promise you the extra 2 years have enormous value.

I have no idea exactly what went down that created FM as a specialty as that was 15-ish years before I was born. I only know what I saw when I trained and that was that an intern year is not enough to practice good primary care.
 
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Family Medicine Specialist is also a bit of a head scratcher? What is the specialization? How is it the GPs of what, more than half the world, are doing the exact same job, and propping up health systems that certain political/lobbying/societies here in the US state they want to emulate for lower per capita spending for same health outcomes?

But I am open, please spell out exactly what differentiates FM from GP. What the value of FM is over GP. In metric, perhaps health system savings in less referrals? Perhaps less lab orders? Perhaps less hospitalizations? Greater efficiency and more panel size? Anything, please educate / convince me.

I take it that you have never run into a true GP - i.e. someone practicing on their own with only an intern year. If you had, you'd know the difference.

Everything gets referred out, even fairly routine diabetes and HTN. Their breadth of medication knowledge is very limited so once a patient fails one or two agents, that's it - off to the specialist they go. They have a hard time with Hepatitis C without someone holding their hand. Some can barely do PrEP because every positive RPR (no matter what the titer, and no matter what the treponema antibody status is) is cause for alarm. Many end up doing suboxone, as it's quite lucrative, but they do it poorly and without a sense of responsibility. All lower back pain automatically gets an x-ray and MRI referral first, no matter the history. And basic psych management is a joke. They're basically worse than NPs or PAs because since "I'm a doctor," there's no ego check and no oversight at all.
 
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I’m genuinely surprised we’re having a conversation about the difference between GP’s and FM. It’s night and day.
 
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Most points brought up are valid, but I think removing the bachelor's degree requirement is a huge mistake. I think most physicians need that broad education for dealing most effectively with the socioeconomic determinants of health that is huge.

Also, while I would never argue that someone with only one year of residency is on par with what a fully trained FM doc does, they are vastly superior to non-physicians serving in a physician role at the end of the day.

Because this is true, I do think there should be more of a role for these physicians in the clinical healthcare system, or better/easier avenues for funneling them into positions or training where they can be of better use.

The whole system needs overhaul.
 
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So you can steal all our sweet RVUs.

Plus I'm told we taste like duck

I have frequently had a difficult time undertanding how RVUs work. I don't get paid per RVU - anyone care to explain?
 
If you aren't getting paid by wRVU, save yourself the headache of understanding. It's another metric in the vast arsenal of physician compensation plans that tends to leave physicians on the losing side.
 
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I have frequently had a difficult time undertanding how RVUs work. I don't get paid per RVU - anyone care to explain?

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services needed a standardized way to determine how much work various codes translated to. What they came up with was the "Relative Value Unit", which is supposed to take into consideration the time it takes to do something and the complexity of the task. The RVU has three components - one for the physician work (the work RVU or wRVU), one for the cost to the practice, and one for the possible malpractice cost. So the way that Medicare determines how much to pay you for any code is they add the three components together, adjust for costs specific to your geographic location, and multiply by a conversion factor to get a dollar sum.

But one part of this formula - the aforementioned Work RVU - is *explicitly* an estimate of how much physician work something takes, and a standardized one thereof. So many practices find it a useful metric to keep track of physician work. A moderate complexity followup visit - a 99214 - is worth 1.92 wRVU. For everyone, everywhere (who is using the 2021 tables - but that's a different story). Reading a 12-lead EKG is worth 0.17 wRVU. Etc. For 10000+ CPT codes.

So you can just take all the CPT codes billed by any given physician, convert them to wRVU, and add them all up and you'll get a measure of productivity. The other thing is it's a measure that's insurance agnostic - if you and I both see a moderate complexity followup patient, we both just made 1.92 wRVU, even though one of the two patients might have Medicaid (reimburse very little) and the other might have commercial insurance (reimburses a lot more).

So then at the end of the week/month/quarter/etc, you know exactly how productive your docs have been, and you can pay them based on that.

There's pluses and minuses to fairness of being paid on wRVU vs just being paid based on collections.
 
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Most points brought up are valid, but I think removing the bachelor's degree requirement is a huge mistake. I think most physicians need that broad education for dealing most effectively with the socioeconomic determinants of health that is huge.

Also, while I would never argue that someone with only one year of residency is on par with what a fully trained FM doc does, they are vastly superior to non-physicians serving in a physician role at the end of the day.

Because this is true, I do think there should be more of a role for these physicians in the clinical healthcare system, or better/easier avenues for funneling them into positions or training where they can be of better use.

The whole system needs overhaul.
However lowering the bar in terms of education is not the solution
 
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If you aren't getting paid by wRVU, save yourself the headache of understanding. It's another metric in the vast arsenal of physician compensation plans that tends to leave physicians on the losing side.
Lol… then you aren’t doing it right… especially with the 2021 codes.
 
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OP, sorry for the overly negative responses from many. Sure, it will be really tough but you were not asking that (and I assume you know that) you were asking steps and what it would look like.

I am living proof what you are asking can in fact be done. For better or worse, how you did as a medical student can help (or hinder). If you got a letter from your old PD, what you have done since, also people in the program for you will be genuinely interested in your other life. Contrary to popular opinion here, not everyone has a "perfect" A +b=c trajectory, nor should they. In my case, I was actually doing pretty well in what I was doing outside medicine but always had the pull to go back. I can answer more in a DM. Things I had going for me in full honestly: excellent medical school CV, good letter from old PD, some research in field prior to starting new residency and genuine love/interest for the field-with really nice evals in my now field from med school, also I did get an LOR from a practicing physician in the specialty. Caveat, I was always committed to medicine (as well as other things in life), I just selected an exceedingly intense and all consuming specialty initially as a semi naive med student. How your experience varies from your first residency to who you are will be unique to you.

Good luck!
 
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Lol… then you aren’t doing it right… especially with the 2021 codes.

This is getting OP way off topic but if you aren't getting paid wRVUs then he's right, it doesn't make sense to figure them out. All he cares about (and I care about as well) is what you get paid for certain codes (90792 vs 99205 vs 99204 +90833 etc etc). We care 0 about what wRVUs they generate. For example, a 90792 is technically more wRVUS than a 99205 but 99205s generally ACTUALLY get paid out higher than 90792s.
 
No one is saying he/she can't "join the guild". Plenty (if not a majority) of states will license you after intern year. My state does and I both took advantage of that to moonlight in residency and fully support it continuing to be an option. Your career options as a GP are more limited, but there is work to be found once you're licensed. Not sure what you read that made you think I was against GPs being a thing.

What I did (and do) object to is the idea that FM as a specialty shouldn't have ever been created. That both shows fairly impressive ignorance about the difference between FPs and GPs and is insulting towards those of us who chose this field.

Obviously I'm aware that non-EM Trained doctors practice in the ED all the time. If hospitals are willing to hire them, that's their business. Given a choice, I personally would choose an EM trained physician over non-EM 99% of the time for me and my family but the hiring is between individual physicians and hospitals. There's no law prohibiting such things and I am fine with that. Rural is always a different story, lack of resources leaves you with the question of "do I let this doctor do/treat X because we have literally no one else or do we just make everyone drive 5 hours to get treatment from the proper specialist?"

Again, just because other people cut corners doesn't mean we should. There's a local chiropractor who uses fruit smoothies to treat cancer. That doesn't mean that I should offer BS treatments for cancer... or even treat cancer in the first place. Oncology fellowships exist for a reason.

There's also a big difference in pioneering something instead of going to a fellowship that doesn't exist yet and just deciding that you're going to become a specialist because you think you can.

I get it I get it and I'm not personally saying family medicine residency has no value or IM residency has no value or any particular residency has no value. But what I'm saying is it really sucks butt that we have someone who's put in all this time and effort to go through medical school, pass the steps, do an intern year and then spends a few years out of the field and then the best we can say is "sorry bud guess you're out of luck" when he's asking about getting back into medicine. There is a lot of value in that, including vast value in HOW you learn in medical school which is vastly different than HOW you learn in nursing school and how you approach diagnosis and treatment. When, again, you can have a nurse go work as a nurse administrator for 7 years, then go get an NP degree and, again, essentially become an attending physician in half the states in this country for most practical purposes.

I'm recognizing that what he did has value and while you may view it as "cutting corners" if he's allowed to go see patients, I view this as, at least the patients aren't going to go see one of the thousands of poorly trained midlevels who generally ACTUALLY have no idea what they're doing. Again, is someone with just an internship as well trained as a physician who has completed a residency program? No of course not. Someone with an intern year definitely has to eat a slice of humble pie and realize they have more to learn but I'd much rather have patients going to go see one of my interns after a year of internship than many of the noctors I've run into. I'd also be much more amenable to helping a GP out and discussing difficult cases/treatment strategies/etc just like I'd do with any resident, realizing that they have a very poor chance of being able to go back and finish their residency themselves with the cards stacked the way they are.

Your railing against cutting corners is what makes me think you're against GPs being a thing. It shouldn't be a path that everyone aspires to necessarily but should be at least a consolation prize for someone in OPs position.
 
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I get it I get it and I'm not personally saying family medicine residency has no value or IM residency has no value or any particular residency has no value. But what I'm saying is it really sucks butt that we have someone who's put in all this time and effort to go through medical school, pass the steps, do an intern year and then spends a few years out of the field and then the best we can say is "sorry bud guess you're out of luck" when he's asking about getting back into medicine. There is a lot of value in that, including vast value in HOW you learn in medical school which is vastly different than HOW you learn in nursing school and how you approach diagnosis and treatment. When, again, you can have a nurse go work as a nurse administrator for 7 years, then go get an NP degree and, again, essentially become an attending physician in half the states in this country for most practical purposes.

I'm recognizing that what he did has value and while you may view it as "cutting corners" if he's allowed to go see patients, I view this as, at least the patients aren't going to go see one of the thousands of poorly trained midlevels who generally ACTUALLY have no idea what they're doing. Again, is someone with just an internship as well trained as a physician who has completed a residency program? No of course not. Someone with an intern year definitely has to eat a slice of humble pie and realize they have more to learn but I'd much rather have patients going to go see one of my interns after a year of internship than many of the noctors I've run into. I'd also be much more amenable to helping a GP out and discussing difficult cases/treatment strategies/etc just like I'd do with any resident, realizing that they have a very poor chance of being able to go back and finish their residency themselves with the cards stacked the way they are.

Your railing against cutting corners is what makes me think you're against GPs being a thing. It shouldn't be a path that everyone aspires to necessarily but should be at least a consolation prize for someone in OPs position.

This argument is heavily flawed by the idea that one HAS to choose between GP and APP. In reality, we should be focusing on getting more trained FM deployed via the usual methods: make the specialty more appealing with incentives both monetary and otherwise.

And as soon as you say it isn’t a path everyone aspires to, you bring up the other issue with this argument: if you aren’t excited to have one of your own loved ones seen by a GP rather than a board-certified FM, then we shouldn’t be advocating for it at all. The comparison of GP against independent APP is flawed because the answer isn’t “on or the other.” We should be advocating for NEITHER. The dumbing down of American Medicine isn’t about being “anti-guild protection.”
 
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This argument is heavily flawed by the idea that one HAS to choose between GP and APP. In reality, we should be focusing on getting more trained FM deployed via the usual methods: make the specialty more appealing with incentives both monetary and otherwise.

And as soon as you say it isn’t a path everyone aspires to, you bring up the other issue with this argument: if you aren’t excited to have one of your own loved ones seen by a GP rather than a board-certified FM, then we shouldn’t be advocating for it at all. The comparison of GP against independent APP is flawed because the answer isn’t “on or the other.” We should be advocating for NEITHER. The dumbing down of American Medicine isn’t about being “anti-guild protection.”
So then should we make it easier for people to come back to a family medicine residency? We're not hearing a tale of someone who washed out because they have no business seeing patients at all or possibly finishing a residency.

There are others who for various reasons didn't make the journey in a straight line from med school through the end of a residency, and nor should all of them have as much difficulty as they do returning to clinical medicine and finishing a residency as OP will. I know there are people for whom the issues were family or health, and since resolved, but they too will be facing the difficulties the OP is.
 
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If this is really about patient safety, than it should be no more difficult for a fully licensed physician like the OP to see patients as it for, say, noctors. And if it's patient safety and the OP has no business seeing patients, than neither should noctors. But if noctors are going to see patients and they're not going to be stopped on the basis of patient safety, than I see no reason to stop licensed physicians. If it isn't safe for OP, then it isn't safe for noctors. Which is it? Safe for all, or safe for none. The logic here isn't hard.
 
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If this is really about patient safety, than it should be no more difficult for a fully licensed physician like the OP to see patients as it for, say, noctors. And if it's patient safety and the OP has no business seeing patients, than neither should noctors. But if noctors are going to see patients and they're not going to be stopped on the basis of patient safety, than I see no reason to stop licensed physicians. If it isn't safe for OP, then it isn't safe for noctors. Which is it? Safe for all, or safe for none. The logic here isn't hard.

That’s exactly my argument actually, thought I made that pretty clear? Neither independent APP nor those who have only completed an intern year are safe for patients. I do wish there was a way for OP to get back into training. I’m not advocating against that and I don’t think anyone here is? They are advising that given the current system the chances are slim. They are stating what is, not what we might wish to be. I wish I had a magic fairy wand to come up with a bunch of solutions.

But we don’t make things better by advocating for non-physicians or for incompletely trained physicians to practice independently. I say again, if you wouldn’t leap for joy to have someone with only an intern year take care of your loved one, then it clearly doesn’t pass muster. This is the major flaw in the argument about “underserved and rural communities” needs being met by APP or GP. If you’re only wanting them to treat the poor, remote, minoritized, or other “underserved” people and not your own granny, then it’s not a good idea for them to treat anyone.
 
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I get it I get it and I'm not personally saying family medicine residency has no value or IM residency has no value or any particular residency has no value. But what I'm saying is it really sucks butt that we have someone who's put in all this time and effort to go through medical school, pass the steps, do an intern year and then spends a few years out of the field and then the best we can say is "sorry bud guess you're out of luck" when he's asking about getting back into medicine. There is a lot of value in that, including vast value in HOW you learn in medical school which is vastly different than HOW you learn in nursing school and how you approach diagnosis and treatment. When, again, you can have a nurse go work as a nurse administrator for 7 years, then go get an NP degree and, again, essentially become an attending physician in half the states in this country for most practical purposes.

I'm recognizing that what he did has value and while you may view it as "cutting corners" if he's allowed to go see patients, I view this as, at least the patients aren't going to go see one of the thousands of poorly trained midlevels who generally ACTUALLY have no idea what they're doing. Again, is someone with just an internship as well trained as a physician who has completed a residency program? No of course not. Someone with an intern year definitely has to eat a slice of humble pie and realize they have more to learn but I'd much rather have patients going to go see one of my interns after a year of internship than many of the noctors I've run into. I'd also be much more amenable to helping a GP out and discussing difficult cases/treatment strategies/etc just like I'd do with any resident, realizing that they have a very poor chance of being able to go back and finish their residency themselves with the cards stacked the way they are.

Your railing against cutting corners is what makes me think you're against GPs being a thing. It shouldn't be a path that everyone aspires to necessarily but should be at least a consolation prize for someone in OPs position.
No, the cutting corners part was referring to the idea that there should be back-door ways into other specialties than what someone trained in or that because NPs exist you shouldn't need an FM residency to practice family medicine.

I very openly said I have no objections to GPs. It was literally in the first paragraph of my initial response to you. There's another thread recently where I searched for GP jobs in my state to offer advice to someone with just an intern year under their belt since you can get a full license with just an intern year. Does that should like something I'd if I was against the existence of GPs?

As far as being out of medicine for 5 years, that's a big deal no matter who you are. I'm a licensed board certified FP. If I completely gave up medicine for 5 years and then tried to renew my license/board certification, both bodies would require a re-entry program for me.
 
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If you aren't getting paid by wRVU, save yourself the headache of understanding. It's another metric in the vast arsenal of physician compensation plans that tends to leave physicians on the losing side.

that seems to be the case - but still want to understand.
 
I say again, if you wouldn’t leap for joy to have someone with only an intern year take care of your loved one, then it clearly doesn’t pass muster.
I'd want a intern trained GP treat my family. Heck if they even had a DPC practice I'd see them too.
Each time and every time I'd preference the intern over Noctors.

Passes the muster.
 
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I'd want a intern trained GP treat my family. Heck if they even had a DPC practice I'd see them too.
Each time and every time I'd preference the intern over Noctors.

Passes the muster.
So would you pick the intern trained GP or the fully trained, board eligible/certified primary care physician? That’s the choice…unless you are equating the GP as the top level of the midlevels.
 
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Right now in my community all the DPC practices are FM and have ARNPs in their employ. The chance that the cash I would pay, to potentially be seen by an ARNP, no thanks. I'll stick to the IM with a Big Box shop.

But if an enterprising GP opened up shop with a DPC and I'd get that person each time every time, I'd switch. And likely over time as other IM/FM opened up DPC practices without ARNPs in their employ, I'd stay with the GP simply out of familiarity.
 
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