Research Authorship?

[SomeDoc]

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[DropkickMurphy]

They used you man. Sorry, but I am pretty sure you are seriously screwed on this one. Basically once it's published you're SOL.

 

[docbill]

Journal can't make corrections after print.. but they may issue a correction.

However.. more importantly, what is it that you did on the project. Where you a summer or undergraduate student getting payed.. where you a technician?

I know I had summer students who thought they should be first author on all the articles.. but in reality they are fortunate if I put their name on there period. I alway do put students names, but technicians sometimes should not be on there.

Think about how important this PI's letter of reference is to you.. before you go mucking things up there.

PS. In your stage of career, if you are co-authors on abstract you can put that on your CV. Usually there are abstract books that are printed by a scientific journal which you can use as reference.

 

[SomeDoc]

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[docbill]

So basically you were a technician.. which is one step below summer student.

Sorry, I know its not fair.. but I would think about what is important to you. If this PI's reference is important.. and if it is good.. I would leave it alone. S/he knows what they did.. no surprises. They act stupid but they know.

 

[SomeDoc]

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[RxnMan]

You can list the poster on your CV. You cannot list the full-length journal article. Asking for an authorship at this point will only lead to an extremely bad interaction with your former boss. There is a lot of politics around authorships, and it is a sensitive and dangerous subject even with the best of employers. One of my former PIs firmly stated that technicians do not get an authorship - all they did is take data. You may think that's a lot, but compared to getting IRB approval, lab space, funding, designing the experiments, applying stats, writing it up, etc, it's not. A few lost weekends doesn't compare.

As a possible silver lining - sometimes posters (and the abstracts they represent) are published in the conference proceedings. You might want to look up the conference in PubMed or similar to see if your poster showed up there.

 

[suimedica]

You can list the poster on your CV. You cannot list the full-length journal article. Asking for an authorship at this point will only lead to an extremely bad interaction with your former boss. There is a lot of politics around authorships, and it is a sensitive and dangerous subject even with the best of employers. One of my former PIs firmly stated that technicians do not get an authorship - all they did is take data. You may think that's a lot, but compared to getting IRB approval, lab space, funding, designing the experiments, applying stats, writing it up, etc, it's not. A few lost weekends doesn't compare.

As a possible silver lining - sometimes posters (and the abstracts they represent) are published in the conference proceedings. You might want to look up the conference in PubMed or similar to see if your poster showed up there.

I totally feel for the "credit not given" . I'm really new in the research arena as I'm working towards getting a good authorship so that I can put in my CV and appl. for med schl. And since this is best thread I can find for advice. Can someone out there give some advice on doing the right thing so as not to b embroiled in any politics?

I'm really interested in finding out:
I'm going into some sort of research, as a volunteer basis. I hope to be included in the authorship, ultimately. How can I be careful in getting an authorship in a complete project? What are the things that I should be aware of ? You see, in the real world, there are things that are never learned in the textbooks..........

Some questns. for advice:
1) Are there at least a # of clock-in hours to prove of participation?
2) If getting a transport allowance, make me a technician?
3) If any $ comes into my pocket, means I'm a tech and not for authorship?
4) Anything that comes to your mind?

DOn't mean to hijack any thread. I'm totally green.

 

[RxnMan]

First off, I'm going to ask that this thread be moved to the Publications forum, because that's where it best belongs.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

If you aren't first or second author it really doesn't matter anyway. Middle authors are mostly token positions. The value of authorships goes something like this: (not counting last author)

 

[RxnMan]

...Can someone out there give some advice on doing the right thing so as not to b embroiled in any politics?...

Authorship goes to the folks who contributed intellectually to the project. If you're a tech who's told what to do, and you parrot through steps, then that's not an intellectual contribution (not trying to knock techs - I was one). You have to help do all of the stuff I listed above. Thus, part of not getting political is knowing what your contribution is.

To take a step back, look at the order of authorship. Generally the people who do most of the work are listed first or second. They did the design, the writing, the execution. The last name is the person who is an advisor and provides funding, lab space, and makes sure the science is good. Anyone in between is the pinch hitter, consulted on a Friday afternoon to do the statistical analysis.

So you need to know where you fit into this setup (by your contribution) and then you'll have a case to take to your PI (principle investigator). I generally approached my PI about authorship within 1-2 meetings after we decided that we had enough to submit to a conference. I would state what I think is fair, (you have to be objective, or your PI will think you're being greedy) and ask them what they think. Your PI has the final word.

...I'm really interested in finding out:
I'm going into some sort of research, as a volunteer basis. I hope to be included in the authorship, ultimately. How can I be careful in getting an authorship in a complete project?.../

See the above. Help design the experiment. Help refine the hypothesis.

...1) Are there at least a # of clock-in hours to prove of participation?...

Not really. Everyone works hard. I worked afternoons and weekends in addition to attending med school to get my project approved and funded, and I may not get an authorship if the project doesn't work out. It's all a risk.

...2) If getting a transport allowance, make me a technician?...

Do you mean mileage reimbursement? Do you mean your moving expenses are paid? Either is a benefit, not indicative of your title.

...3) If any $ comes into my pocket, means I'm a tech and not for authorship?...

No, it just means you're getting money. It's not like the PI is doing their job for free...

 

[LJDHC05]

Authorship goes to the folks who contributed intellectually to the project. If you're a tech who's told what to do, and you parrot through steps, then that's not an intellectual contribution (not trying to knock techs - I was one). You have to help do all of the stuff I listed above. Thus, part of not getting political is knowing what your contribution is.

To take a step back, look at the order of authorship. Generally the people who do most of the work are listed first or second. They did the design, the writing, the execution. The last name is the person who is an advisor and provides funding, lab space, and makes sure the science is good. Anyone in between is the pinch hitter, consulted on a Friday afternoon to do the statistical analysis.

So you need to know where you fit into this setup (by your contribution) and then you'll have a case to take to your PI (principle investigator). I generally approached my PI about authorship within 1-2 meetings after we decided that we had enough to submit to a conference. I would state what I think is fair, (you have to be objective, or your PI will think you're being greedy) and ask them what they think. Your PI has the final word.

Well said. You don't get authorship just for showing up and doing some experiments. You have to add conceptually to the study, either through the experimental design or data analysis or physical writing of the paper. That being said, I've been there too, listed on the abstracts but not on the paper...it's a sucky feeling, but I had only been in the lab for a summer.

It wasn't until about 3 years later that I had enough to put out a paper of my own...and I didn't put any of the summer students on it nor did I put the tech who did some of the experiments on it for me...only the contributors.

 

[dilated]

It's nice to live in ideal world where everyone is fair, but you have to be realistic. Before you even pick a lab to work in, look up the PI and see how much they publish, what they publish and what their author list looks like. Fortunately some journals publish degrees so you can look for the BA/BS people. If you see a PI who always takes first author, don't expect to get it.

If you need publications for whatever, bring it up before the fact. In med school nobody gives a crap if you "did research" if you're not on the publication, ideally as first author. So when I've done research projects, I just say, look, getting some publications out is important if I want to match into X, is that possible? The key is to ask before, when you still have some leverage. If you're at a big research school there are a lot of fish in the sea- it's not hard to find a PI who's both doing something interesting and fits your career needs.

 

[suimedica]

Thank you all for your advice, especially RxnMan for spelling it out for me .

In an interview, will asking for a mileage reimbursement, about the time committment --clock-in hours, and maybe if being included to an authorship,

to a potential "honorary research fellow" position, with potentially no mileage reimbursement-- BE a big Boo-boo/No-NO? Will it probably kill my chances to the position, coming off as being greedy? (After reading these threads, I'm probably deadmeat).

Anyways, are there any good advice for being able to write a good paper? Maybe something that I can read up and some Godly advice from the thread contributors.

Thanx. Don't mean to hijack again. Since there are ppl. on the same context.

 

[RxnMan]

Thank you all for your advice, especially RxnMan for spelling it out for me .

No worries, and you're welcome.

...In an interview, will asking for a mileage reimbursement, about the time committment --clock-in hours, and maybe if being included to an authorship,

Asking about hours is OK - if you're volunteer you'll probably be part-time anyways. Also, some PIs want you in at 7am and you can leave at 3pm, so it's not bad to ask. On authorship, it's probably best to say this in the context of "I want to do work that of high enough quality to be published some day." It conveys work ethic and your goals. In the end you may not have anything publishable, but your PI won't be surprised if/when you ask them down the road.

to a potential "honorary research fellow" position, with potentially no mileage reimbursement-- BE a big Boo-boo/No-NO? Will it probably kill my chances to the position, coming off as being greedy? (After reading these threads, I'm probably deadmeat).

Don't get caught up on titles. The main items here are

1) to determine if you like research (may not be your goal, but is important for your career) and
2) to develop some research skills (hypothesis testing is a good skill in any career).

Work hard and learn, and everything else will flow from there.

If you're doing this on a volunteer basis, then that means gratis and no benefits. If you're employed, then there might be a standard hospital employee benefit. The latter you can explore with Human Resources.

...Anyways, are there any good advice for being able to write a good paper?...

When you get to that point, come back to SDN and we'll talk.

 

[suimedica]

No worries, and you're welcome.
When you get to that point, come back to SDN and we'll talk.

With more questions when I start slaving away with no carrot($) tied to a string in front of me.

Hasta La Vista.