repercussions for outing abuser

[araliaceae]

I was abused over several months by another medical school student. I have photo documentation of some of these violent outbursts, in addition to text messages where he acknowledges he was abusive. What would happen if I outed him to our med school? The NRMP?

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[libertyyne]

What sort of abuse did you endure?
are you a medical student? If so you should report this to the administration.
If the abuse is a crime you should report this to the Police.


What sort of repercussions are you afraid of?

 

[araliaceae]

What sort of abuse did you endure?
are you a medical student? If so you should report this to the administration.
If the abuse is a crime you should report this to the Police.


What sort of repercussions are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of the repercussions every woman faces when outing an abuser.

It happened over a year ago, but I was too scared to tell anyone. Listening to the Kavanaugh hearings has reopened this wound for me and I don't know if I should out him or not.

 

[libertyyne]

I'm afraid of the repercussions every woman faces when outing an abuser.

It happened over a year ago, but I was too scared to tell anyone. Listening to the Kavanaugh hearings has reopened this wound for me and I don't know if I should out him or not.

Im unsure of what repercussions you would face considering medical students have zero power as far as career aspects are concerned.

Obviously other social repercussions are difficult to asses with the amount of information you have provided.

 

[Kuratz]

Help us help you. What kind of abuse are you referring to? Physical? Sexual? Emotional? This is important because a violent crime should go straight to the police while something that's more on the unprofessional behavior spectrum doesn't necessarily. Are we talking an isolated comment or incident or a pattern? Leaving things extremely cryptically doesn't allow us to be of much help

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Please contact a legal professional for advice on this issue. SDN is not the place to seek legal advice.

 

[araliaceae]

Please contact a legal professional for advice on this issue. SDN is not the place to seek legal advice.

I'm not taking legal action or reporting it to the police. I want to know if other medical students have been outed and if so, how that has affected their med school enrollment and residency.

 

[Kuratz]

Either go to the police or leave it be.

 

[QueenJames]

I guarantee that if you out him to your school, they won't do much about it. Maybe they'll call him in to talk about it but he can easily state that it was while ago and he never physically assaulted you.

Verbal? maybe.

You really should have reported this when it first happened...

If he didn't physically assault you or rape you or anything of that sort... it's a mere verbal abuse case (which is still wrong).

Just avoid him. That's what your school will say and seek counseling for it.

Bottom line.

Were you raped or sexually assaulted or physically abused at all?

If no.... then move on. Seek counseling and ignore him.

If so... then you better get a good lawyer. I still wouldn't suggest talking to your school because let's be real... med schools don't give a **** because you are messing with their money. They will ALWAYS choose the money over any morality. They won't do much about it.

 

[libertyyne]

Over several months we lived together and he would channel his anxiety over med school into abusive outbursts. He would destroy property (broke windows, carved "**** you" into the wall of the apt that I was only on the lease for), locked me in our room and stood over me yelling for hours while I cried and pleaded for him to stop, made me feel unsafe, threatened me, threatened my friends, isolated me from my friends, and admitted he "went as far as he could without actually hitting me." I have no doubt if I stayed it would've become physical. I have text messages where he admits to being abusive.

I'm not taking legal action or reporting it to the police. I want to know if other medical students have been outed and if so, how that has affected their med school enrollment and residency.

Medical School is not a court of law. It is not designed to handle domestic violence accusations.

This seems like something that should be reported to the police.

The repercussions for the abuser will only occur if there is police action and subsequent conviction.

 

[NecFasc92]

I'm not taking legal action or reporting it to the police. I want to know if other medical students have been outed and if so, how that has affected their med school enrollment and residency.

If you aren't seeking legal representation and you are aren't going to the cops then it sounds like your sole purpose is one thing: to ruin his career.

 

[Singlemom Rph]

I went through similar abuse to what you described for many years. I never reported it to anyone because I didn't they anything could be done unless he was physically abusing me. Keep in mind that reporting him will likely make you a target of his anger again. I'm not sure what the right thing for you to do is. He's a miserable person and unfortunately that may be all the punishment he ever gets.

 

[raiderette]

Please reach out to someone. Law enforcement may not be the first step. Not everyone is ready for that. However, talking to someone is critical. Take the first step. Both of these numbers can also provide local resources.
National Sexual Assault Hotline
1-800-656-4673 [24/7 hotline]
[hosts an online hotline]

National Domestic Violence Hotline
1-800-799-7233

Many of us are feeling raw after the hearings this week. You are not alone.

 

[solitarius]

It's hard to assess your situation without more information, but posting that information is likely inappropriate in a forum like this. Abuse takes on many forms, and there is a continuum of severity that will affect any action the authorities take. A person yelling at you will be punished less severely than someone who physically assaulted you.

Unlike what others posted, the school has a vested interest in promoting professionalism. If the actions are in clear violation of that, they may take action. This is going to vary by school. Some schools do actively fire and replace faculty / admin for violations; others are keen to push it under the rug.

Another unfortunate reality to all this is whether the person you are accusing is connected. That complicates things.

I would advise consulting a lawyer first before talking to the police or administration. If you involve police, administration may resent the fact that you didn't go to them first.

 

[mistafab]

Absolutely report it - abusers should be stopped. Abusers shouldn’t be doctors. Do whatever you can to burn this dude and brand him if he abused you.

 

[VincentAdultman]

If you aren't seeking legal representation and you are aren't going to the cops then it sounds like your sole purpose is one thing: to ruin his career.

I mean if that’s what happened then it’s not super unreasonable. Dude probably shouldn’t be a doctor.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

The repercussions for the abuser will only occur if there is police action and subsequent conviction.

The problem is that law enforcement is notoriously ****ty at dealing with domestic abuse cases. Sometimes, the tables even turn on the victim.

It's no surprise why people are often so reluctant to turn to the police for help.

 

[Kuratz]

The reason she should go to the police is to allow due process. If he indeed did what she says then it is a crime and should be punished as such and subsequently the medical school can tack on any additional punishment they see fit if he's not already in jail. However to only go to the medical school, which does not have legal jurisdiction, does little good because either they A: cannot or will not do anything given the lack of evidence without a formal investigation or getting the police involved or B: suspend the accused and effectively jeopardize his career without a thorough investigation which isn't fair. We have a robust legal system for a reason. If she doesn't want to go that avenue that's her decision but then it would be unreasonable to expect retribution.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I mean if that’s what happened then it’s not super unreasonable. Dude probably shouldn’t be a doctor.

Probably not, but med school admin is not set up to investigate this sort of thing. Schools in general are terrible at it.

 

[atomi]

If he committed a crime, go to the police. If he did not, let it go. You can’t try to ruin someone’s career because he hurt your feelings. If he assaults you but you don’t have evidence, I’m sorry. But that’s the way our legal system works. If I rob a bank and nobody can prove it, they can’t take all my assessts because somebody thinks I’ve got a million stashed somewhere. It sucks but it’s a part of life. Sometimes people get away with crimes.

 

[MrMe123]

My school had an issue surrounding sexual assault and a whole process was in place to deal with it. It’s not a criminal process through the school, it’s one of professionalism and making sure the community is safe. If there’s allegations of someone committing any sort of assault the institution itself has a stake in not having that person represent their school in their future practice. You don’t need to want to pursue criminal charges to want to move forward within your institution at reporting this

Keep in mind if it is involving sexual assault that Title IX requires you come forward to administration non-anonymously and the accused will likely find out you reported them

 

[Goro]

The reason she should go to the police is to allow due process. If he indeed did what she says then it is a crime and should be punished as such and subsequently the medical school can tack on any additional punishment they see fit if he's not already in jail. However to only go to the medical school, which does not have legal jurisdiction, does little good because either they A: cannot or will not do anything given the lack of evidence without a formal investigation or getting the police involved or B: suspend the accused and effectively jeopardize his career without a thorough investigation which isn't fair. We have a robust legal system for a reason. If she doesn't want to go that avenue that's her decision but then it would be unreasonable to expect retribution.

I'm trying to imagine what my school's administration would do in the situation like as described by the OP and am drawing a blank. I'm going to have to subtly ask the Powers That Be how it would be handled.

My gut senses that a claim made by a non-student/faculty/staff source would probably be told to report it to the police.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Not my place to say if they should or shouldn't. I just personally think someone is a total pos to purposely do that to someone else. If they aren't seeking legal consequences then it's clearly not something that affected them too much. It's a self absorbing revenge case. Simple as that. They don't care about stopping him from hurting others they simply seek some sick satisfaction of knowing they completely ****ed someone they feel ****ed them first

If true?

Yep. Totally fine with it.

 

[workaholic181]

Not my place to say if they should or shouldn't. I just personally think someone is a total pos to purposely do that to someone else. If they aren't seeking legal consequences then it's clearly not something that affected them too much. It's a self absorbing revenge case. Simple as that. They don't care about stopping him from hurting others they simply seek some sick satisfaction of knowing they completely ****ed someone they feel ****ed them first

This is completely off base. We don't know what OP experienced but people who suffered abuse (sexual, physical, etc) often don't go to the police. It's not like getting your wallet stolen dude. People who survive this stuff cope with it however they can and for a lot of them seeking a drawn out legal solution that has time and time again proven to fall short in prosecuting said crimes is too traumatic. If you're going into medicine I sure hope you wake up as to the realities of trauma and PTSD. And for the record this phenomenon isn't limited to women, it happens to men too. It's not up for you to judge how someone who went through something like this chooses to get closure.

 

[atomi]

If true?

Yep. Totally fine with it.

What if unable to prove if true, as is usually the case?

Is it better to let an abuser go free or to punish an innocent man?

I know my answer.

 

[DokterMom]

Honestly, I truly hate to say this, but my sense is that if you go to your school, whatever they do - even if it's almost nothing - will blow back on you and you will be accused by some of being a vindictive lying beeotch, applauded by some for taking a responsible stand, and derided by others for allowing yourself to be abused in the first place. Your life is likely to be disrupted and dragged through the mud.

I would suggest that you go to the police and the courts instead and only involve your school if you experience retaliation. I would suggest making that an explicit condition - that you agree not to go directly to the school unless he retaliates. And be prepared because he might anyway. You might consider asking a trusted faculty member to hold a sealed and dated envelope for you containing a summary of events to be opened and delivered to the school administration only if necessary.

 

[libertyyne]

This is completely off base. We don't know what OP experienced but people who suffered abuse (sexual, physical, etc) often don't go to the police. It's not like getting your wallet stolen dude. People who survive this stuff cope with it however they can and for a lot of them seeking a drawn out legal solution that has time and time again proven to fall short in prosecuting said crimes is too traumatic. If you're going into medicine I sure hope you wake up as to the realities of trauma and PTSD. And for the record this phenomenon isn't limited to women, it happens to men too. It's not up for you to judge how someone who went through something like this chooses to get closure.

I dont disagree with you that our justice system is not perfect. However, it is the only real way to get justice. If these accusations are true this person should face justice and the correct way to go about doing that and preventing him from abusing other people is through the justice system. What he did was not just a professionalism issue. If true it was a crime and he should face the consequences of comitting a crime. The real way to impact change is to hold these people accountable.

 

[xffan624]

What if unable to prove if true, as is usually the case?

Is it better to let an abuser go free or to punish an innocent man?

I know my answer.

Unable to prove or convict /= innocent

If someone else mugged and beat you up, but didn't take anything on a empty street and you either knew who it was or could describe them sufficiently, why would you not report it? Oh that's right, you would. Because the police won't accuse you of leading the mugger on or instigating the episode. They may or may not be able to catch them, but most likely, if you report the crime and say in a court of law "That's the person who mugged me", people will believe you. Why can't the OP have the same right and expectation of belief in her accusation? To assume that with no evidence that she shouldn't even make the accusation is perpetuating the culture which this abuse is occurring.

 

[workaholic181]

I dont disagree with you that our justice system is not perfect. However, it is the only real way to get justice. If these accusations are true this person should face justice and the correct way to go about doing that and preventing him from abusing other people is through the justice system. What he did was not just a professionalism issue. If true it was a crime and he should face the consequences of comitting a crime. The real way to impact change is to hold these people accountable.

Totally agree and I always encourage people I know who have survived such things to go to the police. However we don't need people belittling what they've gone through or chalking it up to a crazy ex looking for revenge. It's just another form of victim shaming and blaming.

 

[DBV]

If your goal is to burn him out of medical school you better make damn sure your house isn't made of glass.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Unable to prove or convict /= innocent

If someone else mugged and beat you up, but didn't take anything on a empty street and you either knew who it was or could describe them sufficiently, why would you not report it? Oh that's right, you would. Because the police won't accuse you of leading the mugger on or instigating the episode. They may or may not be able to catch them, but most likely, if you report the crime and say in a court of law "That's the person who mugged me", people will believe you. Why can't the OP have the same right and expectation of belief in her accusation? To assume that with no evidence that she shouldn't even make the accusation is perpetuating the culture which this abuse is occurring.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “innocent until proven guilty?” It’s kind of important..

The bolded is completely false btw. If you say in a court of law, “that person mugged me” and you have no evidence then that person walks.

If OP has a true issue then they should report the wrongdoing to the police.that is the correct way to handle this.

 

[twospadz]

Either go to the police or stfu. If you go to the school, you are putting yourself at jeopardy. That's because if the school takes action against this person, he can legally sue you or the school if he thinks he is wronged. If this makes the news, the school reputation can be damaged and the acgme can come down on them. You need to think really hard about this.

 

[deleted480308]

Unable to prove or convict /= innocent

If someone else mugged and beat you up, but didn't take anything on a empty street and you either knew who it was or could describe them sufficiently, why would you not report it? Oh that's right, you would. Because the police won't accuse you of leading the mugger on or instigating the episode. They may or may not be able to catch them, but most likely, if you report the crime and say in a court of law "That's the person who mugged me", people will believe you. Why can't the OP have the same right and expectation of belief in her accusation? To assume that with no evidence that she shouldn't even make the accusation is perpetuating the culture which this abuse is occurring.

There is not an automatic “you said so, so he’s guilty” for mugging. That’s not real

The person still has to have proof and is afforded their presumption of innocence until proven otherwise

 

[xffan624]

There is not an automatic “you said so, so he’s guilty” for mugging. That’s not real

The person still has to have proof and is afforded their presumption of innocence until proven otherwise

I agree with this, but most people that are mugged aren't told even before filing a complaint "Why would you ruin an innocent person's life if you have no evidence?". There is a presumption that they are telling the truth even if their accusation cannot be proven in a court of law.

 

[nimbus]

Medical School is not a court of law. It is not designed to handle domestic violence accusations.

This seems like something that should be reported to the police.

The repercussions for the abuser will only occur if there is police action and subsequent conviction.

It seems like all schools are ill equipped to handle these situations and handle them badly. School administrators are not professionals in this field. Go to professional law enforcement and speak to an attorney. That would be my advice to my own daughter.

 

[Goro]

Have you ever heard the phrase, “innocent until proven guilty?” It’s kind of important..
If OP has a true issue then they should report the wrongdoing to the police; that is the correct way to handle this.

Agree 100% with the latter sentence, but also keep in mind that universities are not courts of law.

Either go to the police or stfu. If you go to the school, you are putting yourself at jeopardy. That's because if the school takes action against this person, he can legally sue you or the school if he thinks he is wronged. If this makes the news, the school reputation can be damaged and the acgme can come down on them. You need to think really hard about this.

This is why schools have attorneys, and no med school has ever been successfully sued if their actions were shown to not be arbitrary or capricious. If the accused student is sanctioned, there would be a massive documenting over why it occurred.

ACGME doesn't care about med schools; they're for residencies. It's LCME that looks after MD schools. And they don't care if a reputation suffers, and neither do the parent sanctioning bodies like Middle States for the central and east coast Universities. In fact, Penn State only got onto Middle States' warning list for the Jerry Sandusky horror show. LCME isn't going to give a rat's ass if someone successfully sued a med school for wrongful dismissal. A 10% Step I failure rate? A 20% attrition rate? Now THAT would get on their radar!

It seems like all schools are ill equipped to handle these situations and handle them badly. School administrators are not professionals in this field. Go to professional law enforcement and speak to an attorney. That would be my advice to my own daughter.

I was abused over several months by another medical school student. I have photo documentation of some of these violent outbursts, in addition to text messages where he acknowledges he was abusive.

What we have here is a Title IX issue, and there are specific school administrators who deal with this. In fact, as soon as the OP would go and make a complaint, the school is required by law to look into it. I'm hazy on the details of what events would get triggered, but my notion is that with the presentation of evidence of a crime, the school would not just shut this up, but would involve the law. I'm going to have to ask a specific dean at my school just what the procedures would be.

Again, OP, there is a lot of sage counsel in this thread advising that you go to the police. Please do that.

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
attributed to Edmund Burke

 

[Darth Doc]

I know of a case where a medical student did confront an abuser through the school - after law enforcement was involved. It involved more than verbal/emotional abuse. There were legal actions taken outside of the school's perview. The abuser was removed from the school. I don't know if the situation relates to yours, but if it does, involve law enforcement first. After law enforcement is involved it would be worthwhile to tell the school. None of us want an abuser practicing medicine along side us and treating co-workers and patients badly.

 

[Raney Schauer]

Either go to the police or stfu. If you go to the school, you are putting yourself at jeopardy. That's because if the school takes action against this person, he can legally sue you or the school if he thinks he is wronged. If this makes the news, the school reputation can be damaged and the acgme can come down on them. You need to think really hard about this.

How is it any of ACGME's business?

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I feel OP should discuss this with the medical school. By going through those venues instead of through the legal system there are steps between "ruining his career" and her feeling unheard/disregarded. The school can require anger counseling, can make sure they aren't in the same small groups going forward, and can create a set of conditions necessary (not contacting his ex, complying with the Title IX investigation, etc.) for his graduation.
I have seen a somewhat related situation handled this way and-while not everyone was happy-all parties were in agreement about the plan of action.
Pretty impressed by the people in the thread telling her to STFU or that reporting the abuser is a shi**y thing to do in light of everything we've seen over the past 6 months (let alone 48 hours).

 

[nimbus]

What we have here is a Title IX issue, and there are specific school administrators who deal with this. In fact, as soon as the OP would go and make a complaint, the school is required by law to look into it. I'm hazy on the details of what events would get triggered, but my notion is that with the presentation of evidence of a crime, the school would not just shut this up, but would involve the law. I'm going to have to ask a specific dean at my school just what the procedures would be.

Again, OP, there is a lot of sage counsel in this thread advising that you go to the police. Please do that.

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
attributed to Edmund Burke

I just wouldn’t trust any school administrator to handle the claim competently. They may be well meaning but inexperienced. Thus I think it it better for the OP to consult her own experienced attorney first.

 

[deleted480308]

I agree with this, but most people that are mugged aren't told even before filing a complaint "Why would you ruin an innocent person's life if you have no evidence?". There is a presumption that they are telling the truth even if their accusation cannot be proven in a court of law.

That's random idiots on the internet. The laws don't allow the police to say that and be doing their jobs. The most appropriate place to report crimes is law enforcement

 

[Stagg737]

I was abused over several months by another medical school student. I have photo documentation of some of these violent outbursts, in addition to text messages where he acknowledges he was abusive. What would happen if I outed him to our med school? The NRMP?

If you're not a troll, report this to the police. You have photo documentation and essentially a confession, what are you waiting for?

For those who are saying this is traumatic and hard and she's worried about not being taken seriously, I get it. But she has more than just her word, she has actual evidence with what is essentially a confession. This would be taken seriously.

I agree with this, but most people that are mugged aren't told even before filing a complaint "Why would you ruin an innocent person's life if you have no evidence?". There is a presumption that they are telling the truth even if their accusation cannot be proven in a court of law.

There is not always a presumption they're telling the truth, but the case would be investigated, much like with rape allegations. Then if they find that there's enough evidence to move forward they do.

The question you ask is in regards to degree of the crime. A false conviction for robbing someone won't ruin a person's life. False convictions for many other crimes (including rape, murder, kidnapping, etc) absolutely will. It's not all black and white, though it certainly would be easier if it was.

 

[naijacardriodoc]

This is a title ix issue...they have nothing to do with the med school. Also has varying degrees of consequences from written apology to expulsion.

 

[Goro]

I just wouldn’t trust any school administrator to handle the claim competently. They may be well meaning but inexperienced. Thus I think it it better for the OP to consult her own experienced attorney first.

This is why schools have Title IX people...they're experienced and trained in this.

 

[BurntFlower]

Not my place to say if they should or shouldn't. I just personally think someone is a total pos to purposely do that to someone else. If they aren't seeking legal consequences then it's clearly not something that affected them too much. It's a self absorbing revenge case. Simple as that. They don't care about stopping him from hurting others they simply seek some sick satisfaction of knowing they completely ****ed someone they feel ****ed them first

Your comments are truly disgusting.

 

[Jaxey]

Does your school have Title IX office. Its their job to address issues of abuse, and they usually keep it confidential.

 

[libertyyne]

Title IX tends to have a shorter statue of limitations (180 days from last incident). OP should consult a Lawyer for the exactitude of that. Domestic violence as a criminal matter has a longer statute of limitations.

Furthermore, as a poster indicated above, schools are riddled with conflicts of interest.

They want to
1. reduce liability.
2. keep their reputation.
3. keep collecting tuition.

after the above are fulfilled things like generating competent and ethical physicians come into play.

Would OP be happy if the school just gave the guy a slap on the wrist and brushed it under a rug?
Because it is a distinct possibility that it might occur when going to your school to resolve this.

And then people complain when justice isnt served on campuses surrounding sexual violence. Duh, schools are not in the business of justice, schools are in the business of looking out for schools.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but also keep in mind that universities are not courts of law.

No they aren't, which is why universities often run kangaroo courts with no evidence. While I am very much against sexual assault and anything even close, I am also a big proponent of due process, and schools are notorious for not giving due process. As @libertyyne mentions below they are not equipped to handle justice, they are in the business of protecting the school. And it goes both ways, you can have instances where the school does absolutely nothing or instances where the school ruins a student's life based on very iffy allegations (not saying this thread is an example of such, it looks like a very valid complaint complete with evidence, I'm just speaking generally). This is why law enforcement is the proper way to handle situations like this. They are designed to give justice to both the accuser and the accused, whatever that may be.

This is why schools have Title IX people...they're experienced and trained in this.

Eh title IX people aren't very good at this actually, they frequently botch all sorts of allegations. Hence the need for law enforcement.

And then people complain why justice isnt served on campuses surrounding sexual violence. Duh, schools are not in the business of justice, schools are in the business of looking out for schools.

This.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

Go to the police. At the very least there will be a record of this report if (when) he does this to someone else even decades from now.

My experience is that title IX is a bad joke. I wouldn’t trust them to investigate a stolen lunch.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread is no longer of any use to OP. Closing.