Repercussions for filing complaint with LCME

[kris80882]

For your consideration:

So I just graduated from a hell of a toxic medical school where the abuses of power are just pervasive. I mean, it's hard to find words adequate to describe the bs that went down and continues to go down at that institution. Many know about it and have tried to stand up to it, but if they are a) faculty - they disappear due to nonrenewal of contracts or other hasty unplanned departures without explanations or b) students - they are threatened, told they aren't competitive and should withdraw, even manipulated from a finaid perspective until they, knowing no better, give in and go!

I swallowed my rage against the machine until graduation. Does anyone know of cases in which filing a complaint with the lcme against a medical school after graduation ended up affecting a resident's career prospects or work environment? Medicine is a small, terrible little world, and I don't want to screw myself.

Thanks.

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[neusu]

For your consideration:

So I just graduated from a hell of a toxic medical school where the abuses of power are just pervasive. I mean, it's hard to find words adequate to describe the bs that went down and continues to go down at that institution. Many know about it and have tried to stand up to it, but if they are a) faculty - they disappear due to nonrenewal of contracts or other hasty unplanned departures without explanations or b) students - they are threatened, told they aren't competitive and should withdraw, even manipulated from a finaid perspective until they, knowing no better, give in and go!

I swallowed my rage against the machine until graduation. Does anyone know of cases in which filing a complaint with the lcme against a medical school after graduation ended up affecting a resident's career prospects or work environment? Medicine is a small, terrible little world, and I don't want to screw myself.

Thanks.

As much hate and angst you have towards your school, sometimes it is just better to pocket these feelings, put them in the past, and move on. Unless you remain affiliated with the school in some capacity your ability to affect change for the better is limited. Dinging the school through the LCME, though perhaps cathartic, will likely not result in much of a difference. With respect to repercussions, once your diploma is in hand, there generally is not much that they can do, unless you have skeletons in your closet they could drag out and put your diploma under scrutiny. Finally, if you truly want to make the experience better for those coming after you, and you are affiliated with the school, take a stepped approach to reaching your goal. While the impulse is to want immediate, actionable change, in reality these things take time. Having a overarching goal in mind, with smaller actionable steps in that direction, allows for you to feel fulfilled that progress is being made, while not pulling the rug out from under the current system. In any case, any proposal of loud, big changes tend to get immediately and summarily dismissed; resulting in increaseed tension for any future changes you may subsequently propose.

To summarize, do what you will. Just do it for the right reasons, and do it right.

 

[deleted480308]

Define "abuse of power "

 

[Goro]

For your consideration:

So I just graduated from a hell of a toxic medical school where the abuses of power are just pervasive. I mean, it's hard to find words adequate to describe the bs that went down and continues to go down at that institution. Many know about it and have tried to stand up to it, but if they are a) faculty - they disappear due to nonrenewal of contracts or other hasty unplanned departures without explanations or b) students - they are threatened, told they aren't competitive and should withdraw, even manipulated from a finaid perspective until they, knowing no better, give in and go!

I swallowed my rage against the machine until graduation. Does anyone know of cases in which filing a complaint with the lcme against a medical school after graduation ended up affecting a resident's career prospects or work environment? Medicine is a small, terrible little world, and I don't want to screw myself.

Thanks.

Care to name names? Nobody knows who you are here.

 

[kris80882]

As much hate and angst you have towards your school, sometimes it is just better to pocket these feelings, put them in the past, and move on. Unless you remain affiliated with the school in some capacity your ability to affect change for the better is limited. Dinging the school through the LCME, though perhaps cathartic, will likely not result in much of a difference. With respect to repercussions, once your diploma is in hand, there generally is not much that they can do, unless you have skeletons in your closet they could drag out and put your diploma under scrutiny. Finally, if you truly want to make the experience better for those coming after you, and you are affiliated with the school, take a stepped approach to reaching your goal. While the impulse is to want immediate, actionable change, in reality these things take time. Having a overarching goal in mind, with smaller actionable steps in that direction, allows for you to feel fulfilled that progress is being made, while not pulling the rug out from under the current system. In any case, any proposal of loud, big changes tend to get immediately and summarily dismissed; resulting in increaseed tension for any future changes you may subsequently propose.

To summarize, do what you will. Just do it for the right reasons, and do it right.

I have to disagree. Many have already complained; those with the most significant histories of having been victimized by the institution were forced to sign contracts saying that they wouldn't sue, and the institution relies on the fear factor that it instills ( including threats not only professional but even physical) as well as the ignorance and lack of power/voice of its victims to maintain itself. Silence maintains abusive systems.

 

[kris80882]

Care to name names? Nobody knows who you are here.

No I don't care to at the moment, but I will in the future.

 

[kris80882]

Define "abuse of power "

What I've said is what I'm willing to say at the moment.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

They can always revoke your dipoloma.

I would not go through the LCME. Instead, I would publish anonymous account carefully scrubbed so that they can't tell who you are.

SDN would be a good start.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

They can always revoke your dipoloma.

I would not go through the LCME. Instead, I would publish anonymous account carefully scrubbed so that they can't tell who you are.

SDN would be a good start.

This is pretty much the opposite of what I would say to do. Read through the lcme sites and see if there is an anonymous reporting mechanism, use that.

Any accounts you make online are permenant and likely identifiable if someone has time and is willing to make the effort. This site is well known to many school administrators.

Having said that, I would tend to echo neusu. If it was me, I would need time to consider what was best to do, and I would avoid making any decisions while emotions are high.

 

[Goro]

No I don't care to at the moment, but I will in the future.

Care to PM?

 

[kris80882]

As much hate and angst you have towards your school, sometimes it is just better to pocket these feelings, put them in the past, and move on. Unless you remain affiliated with the school in some capacity your ability to affect change for the better is limited. Dinging the school through the LCME, though perhaps cathartic, will likely not result in much of a difference. With respect to repercussions, once your diploma is in hand, there generally is not much that they can do, unless you have skeletons in your closet they could drag out and put your diploma under scrutiny. Finally, if you truly want to make the experience better for those coming after you, and you are affiliated with the school, take a stepped approach to reaching your goal. While the impulse is to want immediate, actionable change, in reality these things take time. Having a overarching goal in mind, with smaller actionable steps in that direction, allows for you to feel fulfilled that progress is being made, while not pulling the rug out from under the current system. In any case, any proposal of loud, big changes tend to get immediately and summarily dismissed; resulting in increaseed tension for any future changes you may subsequently propose.

To summarize, do what you will. Just do it for the right reasons, and do it right.

I didn't really give your suggestion a fair response. I don't know what a stepped approach would look like. I don't know to whom to address complaints or to whom to give this information. The people at the med school who are doing this seem to think they exist outside the realm of any legal or ethical standards. And to this point, they do. No one has been able to draw the appropriate attention to the issues at the appropriate time with the appropriate support. It's a typical abusive system where most of what happens, happens behind closed doors and off the record, such that it's easy for the admin to make students and faculty they've targeted look crazy. It's really one person pulling the strings and orchestrating most of the abuse as well as allowing similar individuals to persist in the system. The several students I personally know of who have stood up to them refuse to say anything to anyone because they've been threatened. And it all seems to be for no other reason than the amusement of the individual or individuals doing all this. What they've done has already drastically affected my future. And I am not a person who rocks the boat in any way. Lawyers have been consulted and hired by at least two people I know of personally. I myself contacted several individuals who were the appropriate next rung of the ladder, but the admin there have an MO whereby they smear whoever they are currently playing with, spreading blatantly false information and misrepresenting/taking out of context stuff that did happen so that they can imply that these individuals are crazy. It's unlike anything I've ever seen before. The caliber of the people who have left with no real explanation is shocking. It this sounds insane its because IT IS. The place is like hell on earth. The problem is, it continues. I JUST heard about another student who had a run in with the jerks. It's unfair to people who are PAYING to be there. It has to be stopped. So what does a stepped approach look like? When am I safe from their influence? My fear is that my name becomes associated with "troublemaker" and my residency turns sour.

 

[sammiesings]

I didn't really give your suggestion a fair response. I don't know what a stepped approach would look like. I don't know to whom to address complaints or to whom to give this information. The people at the med school who are doing this seem to think they exist outside the realm of any legal or ethical standards. And to this point, they do. No one has been able to draw the appropriate attention to the issues at the appropriate time with the appropriate support. It's a typical abusive system where most of what happens, happens behind closed doors and off the record, such that it's easy for the admin to make students and faculty they've targeted look crazy. It's really one person pulling the strings and orchestrating most of the abuse as well as allowing similar individuals to persist in the system. The several students I personally know of who have stood up to them refuse to say anything to anyone because they've been threatened. And it all seems to be for no other reason than the amusement of the individual or individuals doing all this. What they've done has already drastically affected my future. And I am not a person who rocks the boat in any way. Lawyers have been consulted and hired by at least two people I know of personally. I myself contacted several individuals who were the appropriate next rung of the ladder, but the admin there have an MO whereby they smear whoever they are currently playing with, spreading blatantly false information and misrepresenting/taking out of context stuff that did happen so that they can imply that these individuals are crazy. It's unlike anything I've ever seen before. The caliber of the people who have left with no real explanation is shocking. It this sounds insane its because IT IS. The place is like hell on earth. The problem is, it continues. I JUST heard about another student who had a run in with the jerks. It's unfair to people who are PAYING to be there. It has to be stopped. So what does a stepped approach look like? When am I safe from their influence? My fear is that my name becomes associated with "troublemaker" and my residency turns sour.

TBH, if its really this bad, you should probably just name it. No one here will know who you are.

And if its not this bad, and you're just being dramatic- I wouldn't say anything. Why would you want people to think the school you went to is ****ty?

 

[Pusheen]

Can you at least tell us the approximate location ?

I think threads and testimonials like this can be really useful to expose potential students to what schools may be hiding

 

[aim-agm]

1. Contact LCME anonymously asking what protections they can offer a student (or former student) whisteblower/reporter on a nefarious institution from said abusive institution.

2. It seems the institution might have the greatest ability to get at you through your residency. Find out from current residents what the character and attitudes of the people in charge of your residency are. If there is at least on person high up you can rely on to protect you from attempted revenge by the institution (or at least inform you of such attempts so you can lawyer up) then you are much less vulnerable.

 

[Goro]

I didn't really give your suggestion a fair response. I don't know what a stepped approach would look like. I don't know to whom to address complaints or to whom to give this information. The people at the med school who are doing this seem to think they exist outside the realm of any legal or ethical standards. And to this point, they do. No one has been able to draw the appropriate attention to the issues at the appropriate time with the appropriate support. It's a typical abusive system where most of what happens, happens behind closed doors and off the record, such that it's easy for the admin to make students and faculty they've targeted look crazy. It's really one person pulling the strings and orchestrating most of the abuse as well as allowing similar individuals to persist in the system. The several students I personally know of who have stood up to them refuse to say anything to anyone because they've been threatened. And it all seems to be for no other reason than the amusement of the individual or individuals doing all this. What they've done has already drastically affected my future. And I am not a person who rocks the boat in any way. Lawyers have been consulted and hired by at least two people I know of personally. I myself contacted several individuals who were the appropriate next rung of the ladder, but the admin there have an MO whereby they smear whoever they are currently playing with, spreading blatantly false information and misrepresenting/taking out of context stuff that did happen so that they can imply that these individuals are crazy. It's unlike anything I've ever seen before. The caliber of the people who have left with no real explanation is shocking. It this sounds insane its because IT IS. The place is like hell on earth. The problem is, it continues. I JUST heard about another student who had a run in with the jerks. It's unfair to people who are PAYING to be there. It has to be stopped. So what does a stepped approach look like? When am I safe from their influence? My fear is that my name becomes associated with "troublemaker" and my residency turns sour.

Can you at least give one example of "abuse"? Of threats?
The bolded is concerning, and my take is that there are always two sides to every story.

Med schools typically do not do anything negative to students without lots of documentation, and by the following of established documented protocols...precisely because of their allergies to lawyers.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Lol. OP, you think it's gonna be kittens and rainbows during your intern year?

Get out of here with this garbage. You graduated.

 

[Affiche]

Can you at least tell us the approximate location ?

I think threads and testimonials like this can be really useful to expose potential students to what schools may be hiding

I don't think it would be wise for OP to disclose the name of the school here. It certainly isn't worth possibly losing anonymity and tainting his/her own reputation because MS0s might want to know the scoop. Sorry, but I get annoyed when people try to convince someone to possibly compromise their name/career for the sake of pre-meds.

Can you at least give one example of "abuse"? Of threats?
The bolded is concerning, and my take is that there are always two sides to every story.

Med schools typically do not do anything negative to students without lots of documentation, and by the following of established documented protocols...precisely because of their allergies to lawyers.

Idk...I think a lot of toxic **** goes down at every med school that people don't talk about. US MD students can't exactly up and transfer schools when they realize they're on the losing end of a power play, so you end up with a ton of medical students keeping their heads down and pushing through to preserve their own reputation despite having negligible admins who aren't held accountable. The choices are to either taint your own name, drop out, or keep quiet.

 

[Goro]

I don't think it would be wise for OP to disclose the name of the school here. It certainly isn't worth possibly losing anonymity and tainting his/her own reputation because MS0s might want to know the scoop. Sorry, but I get annoyed when people try to convince someone to possibly compromise their name/career for the sake of pre-meds.



Idk...I think a lot of toxic **** goes down at every med school that people don't talk about. US MD students can't exactly up and transfer schools when they realize they're on the losing end of a power play, so you end up with a ton of medical students keeping their heads down and pushing through to preserve their own reputation despite having negligible admins who aren't held accountable. The choices are to either taint your own name, drop out, or keep quiet.

Can you give me an example of what you consider to be "toxic"?

 

[Pusheen]

I don't think it would be wise for OP to disclose the name of the school here. It certainly isn't worth possibly losing anonymity and tainting his/her own reputation because MS0s might want to know the scoop. Sorry, but I get annoyed when people try to convince someone to possibly compromise their name/career for the sake of pre-meds.



Idk...I think a lot of toxic **** goes down at every med school that people don't talk about. US MD students can't exactly up and transfer schools when they realize they're on the losing end of a power play, so you end up with a ton of medical students keeping their heads down and pushing through to preserve their own reputation despite having negligible admins who aren't held accountable. The choices are to either taint your own name, drop out, or keep quiet.

I see your point, but I feel like that's the attitude that feeds this cycle of abuse of power.
What would your solution to such a situation be?

 

[Affiche]

Can you give me an example of what you consider to be "toxic"?

I will PM you.

 

[cbrons]

They can always revoke your dipoloma.

Not really.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[cbrons]

and the institution relies on the fear factor that it instills ( including threats not only professional but even physical)

My BS detector is going off at full blast. You should be more specific about what these physical threats are. You mean the dean threatened to beat you up?

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[cbrons]

1. Contact LCME anonymously asking what protections they can offer a student (or former student) whisteblower/reporter on a nefarious institution from said abusive institution.

2. It seems the institution might have the greatest ability to get at you through your residency. Find out from current residents what the character and attitudes of the people in charge of your residency are. If there is at least on person high up you can rely on to protect you from attempted revenge by the institution (or at least inform you of such attempts so you can lawyer up) then you are much less vulnerable.

LCME doesnt allow people to make annoynmous complaints AFAIK.

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[DrfluffyMD]

Not really.

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http://www.sixthcircuitappellateblo...nprofessional-medical-student-of-his-diploma/

 

[WingedOx]

http://www.sixthcircuitappellateblo...nprofessional-medical-student-of-his-diploma/

oh god, this has been discussed ad-nauseum here.

 

[mimelim]

http://www.sixthcircuitappellateblo...nprofessional-medical-student-of-his-diploma/

You really see this as relevant to this thread?

I'm not sure how you can relate that case to "They can always revoke your degree".

 

[DrfluffyMD]

You really see this as relevant to this thread?

I'm not sure how you can relate that case to "They can always revoke your degree".

Just skimmed through it, and it reads like that school have legal authority to revoke your degree in the case of unprofessionalism?

Call me paranoid, but I would NEVER go to LCME to complain about a med school when there isn't a mechanism to allow anonymous complaint.

 

[WingedOx]

It's shouldn't be a surprise that we already discussed that in detail, if you want to read. (please don't bump the thread though out of respect to everyone's sanity)

CWRU To Strip Student of Degree

The gist of this is that the school didn't so much revoke the degree as determine the student failed to meet the requirements for it in the first place. Big difference.

Counterintuitively, as for going to the LCME, if you're an active student and there's something specific you think they're violating, threatening to file a report isn't the worst idea if you actually know what specific rule the school is breaking and can back it up with documentation. I'm not sure who would benefit once you're out the door. The OP's complaints sound vague and useless for anything formal to happen. I'm not sure what faculty hiring has to do with anything in the LCME guidelines for example.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

It's shouldn't be a surprise that we already discussed that in detail, if you want to read. (please don't bump the thread though out of respect to everyone's sanity)

CWRU To Strip Student of Degree

The gist of this is that the school didn't so much revoke the degree as determine the student failed to meet the requirements for it in the first place. Big difference.

Counterintuitively, as for going to the LCME, if you're an active student and there's something specific you think they're violating, threatening to file a report isn't the worst idea if you actually know what specific rule the school is breaking and can back it up with documentation. I'm not sure who would benefit once you're out the door. The OP's complaints sound vague and useless for anything formal to happen. I'm not sure what faculty hiring has to do with anything in the LCME guidelines for example.

Potato-Potatoe, they still ruined that person's career and life. If there is a will, they will always find a way. They will make an example out of you to keep the other sheep in line.

OP, if there is not an anonymous way to complain, know that they will almost certainly try and retaliate against you, using "allowable" avenues related to your academic training that you won't be able to actually demonstrate as retaliation without professional help or internal allies.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

You really see this as relevant to this thread?

I'm not sure how you can relate that case to "They can always revoke your degree".

It is absolutely relevant. His career will be over.

They will find a way, and if one is not found based on performance, they will create a reason and miraculously provide necessary documentation to support it.

 

[WingedOx]

Potato-Potatoe, they still ruined that person's career and life.

No one is ever responsible for their own actions here. (though I'm pretty sure you're a reincarnation of a previous poster who used to make the same paranoid arguments)

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

No one is ever responsible for their own actions here. (though I'm pretty sure you're a reincarnation of a previous poster who used to make the same paranoid arguments)

Might you share with us who you allege that previous poster might be so that the mods can prove you wrong?

Unless of course you are in the habit of making false accusations in the absence of any meaningful argument. I have been seeing a lot of that lately by members such as yourself and those that "like" you - troll hunting as opposed to actually addressing an issue. Your lot really does not like to be questioned on things you post.

Please don't prove to be full of hot air (like your significant other).

Oh, I dare say, this does tickle my fancy! Darn it, now I am blushing.

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

[mimelim]

It is absolutely relevant. His career will be over.

They will find a way, and if one is not found based on performance, they will create a reason and miraculously provide necessary documentation to support it.

Potato-Potatoe, they still ruined that person's career and life. If there is a will, they will always find a way. They will make an example out of you to keep the other sheep in line.

OP, if there is not an anonymous way to complain, know that they will almost certainly try and retaliate against you, using "allowable" avenues related to your academic training that you won't be able to actually demonstrate as retaliation without professional help or internal allies.

Not going to re-create the previous thread, as @WingedOx said, for people's sanity. But, I seriously question your awareness of that case or your judgement based on these posts. On topic, that case has no resemblance what so ever. I know hand waving and fake news are all the rage these days, but trying to connect these two is laughable at best.

Just skimmed through it, and it reads like that school have legal authority to revoke your degree in the case of unprofessionalism?

Call me paranoid, but I would NEVER go to LCME to complain about a med school when there isn't a mechanism to allow anonymous complaint.

I would recommend that you read up on the case (or read the thread that WingedOx posted, at least up to the point that you get sick of the cyclical arguments) since referencing it in situations like this are going to make people seriously question your judgement.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Not going to re-create the previous thread, as @WingedOx said, for people's sanity. But, I seriously question your awareness of that case or your judgement based on these posts. On topic, that case has no resemblance what so ever. I know hand waving and fake news are all the rage these days, but trying to connect these two is laughable at best.



I would recommend that you read up on the case (or read the thread that WingedOx posted, at least up to the point that you get sick of the cyclical arguments) since referencing it in situations like this are going to make people seriously question your judgement.

I am not very familiar of the case and I would rather not spend more time on this topic since it's week before the board exam.

I just linked to a court document....

 

[attitudeofgratitude]

aight my B homes

The point is I would delete this post.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Unnecessary

 

[BigTumor]

First thing if you're afraid of Blowback is I would delete this post cause googling your username leads to ...

I don't think you're supposed to do that.

 

[cactusman]

Unnecessary

Might want to edit your post so the quote doesn't still contain the info.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Might want to edit your post so the quote doesn't still contain the info.

Thx

 

[cbrons]

Potato-Potatoe, they still ruined that person's career and life. If there is a will, they will always find a way. They will make an example out of you to keep the other sheep in line.

OP, if there is not an anonymous way to complain, know that they will almost certainly try and retaliate against you, using "allowable" avenues related to your academic training that you won't be able to actually demonstrate as retaliation without professional help or internal allies.

A school cannot revoke a degree you've already been awarded, except in a case where you failed to meet requirements or did so fradulently and were found out. Complaining to the LCME, whether its done annoynmously or on Good Morning America will absolutely 100% not result in you getting your M.D. revoked from a U.S. medical school. There is absolutely no chance of that ever happening. Moreover, once you have graduated, the professionalism gestapo at the medical school has 0 power over you.

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[hamstergang]

Potato-Potatoe

Did anyone else read this as "poe-TAY-toe poe-TAY-toe" and get confused?