Remember when....

[Jocks]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to make a call for everyone to just chill out on this forum. In the past week or so, I've noticed a number of racist remarks, personal attacks, and generally over-the-top commentary. Seriously, this forum should be used to constructively educate people about the medical schools in Ireland. If you have criticisms of a school, please list them in detail, but screaming insults at a school accomplishes nothing.
I am one of many people using the information in this forum in order to make an extremely large life decision. I appreciate any valid information thats posted, however, random insults do nothing but needlessly scare people. So please, keep it clean, keep it accurate, and keep it constructive.

So that's my rant...I need a beer.

Cheers,
Jocks

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[porkchop]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to make a call for everyone to just chill out on this forum. In the past week or so, I've noticed a number of racist remarks, personal attacks, and generally over-the-top commentary. Seriously, this forum should be used to constructively educate people about the medical schools in Ireland. If you have criticisms of a school, please list them in detail, but screaming insults at a school accomplishes nothing.
I am one of many people using the information in this forum in order to make an extremely large life decision. I appreciate any valid information thats posted, however, random insults do nothing but needlessly scare people. So please, keep it clean, keep it accurate, and keep it constructive.

So that's my rant...I need a beer.

Cheers,
Jocks

Well said, Jocks!!

 

[cansnowflake]

Thanks Jocks,
That was definately needed.

 

[big-gun]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to make a call for everyone to just chill out on this forum. In the past week or so, I've noticed a number of racist remarks, personal attacks, and generally over-the-top commentary. Seriously, this forum should be used to constructively educate people about the medical schools in Ireland. If you have criticisms of a school, please list them in detail, but screaming insults at a school accomplishes nothing.
I am one of many people using the information in this forum in order to make an extremely large life decision. I appreciate any valid information thats posted, however, random insults do nothing but needlessly scare people. So please, keep it clean, keep it accurate, and keep it constructive.

So that's my rant...I need a beer.

Cheers,
Jocks

Take a deep breath kid. Those menstral cramps will pass. Everything is gonna be ok. Ahhhhhhhhh...

Buddy, wake up and smell the roses! Few people actually have anything good to say about the crappy Irish med schools. Those who continually defend them do so because they cannot bear to come to grips with how much of their precious time and parents money they are wasting.

You can poke around in these forums all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Ireland provides a sub-standard education at a grossly inflated price. Regardless of what concerns you have, your school will not address them as they are certain you will no longer be a problem in 5 years time when some other sucker with the ill conceived dream of acquiring a good medical education against all odds will come along and take your spot.

Try www.speedymuffler.ca and click on the "job application" tab.

-Big-gun

 

[dr strangelove]

Take a deep breath kid. Those menstral cramps will pass. Everything is gonna be ok. Ahhhhhhhhh...

Buddy, wake up and smell the roses! Few people actually have anything good to say about the crappy Irish med schools. Those who continually defend them do so because they cannot bear to come to grips with how much of their precious time and parents money they are wasting.

You can poke around in these forums all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Ireland provides a sub-standard education at a grossly inflated price. Regardless of what concerns you have, your school will not address them as they are certain you will no longer be a problem in 5 years time when some other sucker with the ill conceived dream of acquiring a good medical education against all odds will come along and take your spot.

Try www.speedymuffler.ca and click on the "job application" tab.

-Big-gun

I'm not the biggest fans of Irish schools myself, but you're being way off the mark by labelling them as sub-standard institutes. Just because you had a bitter experience in RCSI it doesn't mean you should rubbish ALL of Ireland's medical schools. As I've said before, I'd consider RCSI to be my last option if I had to choose an Irish school, so it certainly isn't reflective of the others.

Irish schools need a lot of improvements, yes. Are they worth the money you pay to attend them - certainly not; but for those Irish people lucky enough to get in they represent excellent value for money. They cannot be sub-standard though because Ireland continues to churn out good doctors e.g. Hugh Brady, current President of UCD who was Professor of Medicine at Harvard before he returned to Ireland. Irish schools will provide you with enough to make you a competent doctor - you can't really ask for more.

I think a major gripe the foreign students have is that the Irish system doesn't suit 'their' requirements. The fact is you're going to a country which (at least, in theory) has its medical schools set up to serve and educate the country, unlike the Caribbean. So no, the administration isn't obliged to facilitate you. It would be nice if they would considering how much you're spending, but hey, life's unfair. Very unfair, if even half the stories that are doing the rounds in this forum at the moment are true.

Simply put, if you want a USMLE prep school, you should go to the Caribbean.

 

[porkchop]

Well big-gun I think you're being too cynical. The case is the same everywhere -- as long as you are a foreign student, you will be paying grossly inflated fees. Of course, unless you choose to go to countries like Russia or Indonesia, then you will be paying like US$6,000 per year for tuition. Like they are there to cater for the USMLEs By choosing to go to a certain medical school, you are agreeing to pay the stipulated fees, so it isn't really right to complain althought the fact is it IS expensive make no mistake about that. If you remain in your home country, you will pay less as it most probably will be subsidised a lot by taxes, that's the way it is everywhere.What I am trying to say here is that the choice whether or not to go to a certain medical school is totally up to you. If you weren't happy with the fees, you should stay back in your home country where tuition will be much lower or go to another country which is less expensive.

Like dr strangelove, I don't think it is right at all for you to rubbish all Irish med schools by making the generalization that they are sub-standard just because you had a nasty experience, and that the only students who say that they're happy with their Irish meducation are those that refuse to come to terms with the 'fact' that they are wasting their parents' money. I personally know some int'l students from different countries over in Ireland and they have almost no complaints about their education there. I know some sponsored students and those on full scholarships (tuition and living expenses) studying medicine in Ireland who are contented enough to want to continue life there after graduation.

That said, of course every student has some complaints about the institution they are studying in. For RCSI, complaints are worse because with students paying such exorbitant fees the college really shouldn't give them any reason to complain at all, and paying such money through your teeth only magnifies all the problems

 

[sellica]

well, i want to throw my support behind big gun. i graduated in '03 from the rcsi. i know the big gun has a certain potty-mouth way of describing the situation there. but the frustrations and anger are really on par with my own. I'm in serious debt and i wasnt' even paying as much as big gun when he graduated. money talks and no value for money can piss anyone off. our third year was pointless. the worst teaching ever, really doesn't help in pathology--the core of medicine. i often had this 'what the hell am i doing here feeling'. its not good to have this feeling for 5 years. i wanted to leave but after the first 100,000, you bite the bullet and keep going. i want to applaud big gun for getting a residency, because its not a given. i'm sure he reinforced his aggressive style by burning the midnight oil with the books and networking with the people with exams. and if you end up at this terrible place, let me tell you 1. hang at the library and get the old papers 2.get an arab buddy and find out how to get old mcq papers. the students and the teachers really don't have that much integrity, there's nothing like the 'honor code'. in fact there was a time during my ent exam where i didn't get the old paper and failed the exam but passed the oral with a first class. i failed because i didn't have the old exam paper that I and the class wasn't supposed to have ...not the knowledge. because on top of it all they put you on the curve. i didn't pass my step exam on the first try. after coming back to the u.s. and working my arse off, i got a pathetic little residency in the middle of nowhere. yippeee......... thanks rcsi. where should I send that alumni check?
I had no guidance from the school. once they saw i was off the 'brochure coarse', i was basically left to wolves. i arranged an elective back in america after dishing out a 2,000 bucks to arrange it. i apparently didn't have what it took to go to the mayo, hopkins or columbia elective. i couldn't afford another elective so i did my next elective in ireland. if you have the numbers like i'm sure big gun had, the admin like you more and tell you about other opportunites otherwise they just assume your gonna be an SHO for life with the Asians, Africans and middle eastern guys capped at the registrar post 'for life'. kudos to the irish med system.
I don't know the other medical schools and I want to hang them before their tried. i want to add another thing about being in Ireland. If your not white think a bit more before going there. many of my nonwhite friends had a consistent amount of verbal abuse and oftentimes physical abuse....very racist group. you will meet some very friendly people but believe me my old roommate had to go to the hospital and into therapy after a very severe racially motivated incident. you may talk like your from texas but the color will slide you into second class citizen status real quick. so a word of advise for the nonwhites, shut your mouth, study like your life depended on it, and get a job somewhere else with your hard fought credentials. everyone is friendly till you find a knife in your back.

we americans sacrifice a lot by going there to be doctors. would i do it again? --never. i've discouraged everybody I know who wants to go over the rcsi. but i cannot speak for the other schools. i can speak only for the med school i went to, and the irish medical system that i worked for.

But, it sounds like some of you are over in england and others are irish on this forum. if your british or irish, its a pretty decent deal going to rcsi. its an international experience within your own country for minimal cost. the whole system is different for your guys. your mostly young, first time in college and you have the ten+ years of post grad to figure out what your doing. Plus once your in the system..its your system and your way of thinking. you will get the jobs and the perks. for americans, its not the best use of money. its better to go somewhere else...anywhere else.

on returning to the u.s. i really have begun to love medicine again. i've had a chance to remember what brought me to this great field. maybe i wouldn't of had this realization if i didn't go to rcsi... but i don't think so. to jocks, i can be only so constructive and informative without looking back and feeling i was robbed a bit of my life. someone like big gun and I can really only understand how twisted the situation really is. that being said, really think about your decision.

 

[tivark]

having gone to rcsi and in view of discussions above, i feel compelled to reply.

third year teaching in RCSi was excellent. maybe its because i busted my arse or because Prof. Mary Little made the pathology faculty work their ass off in teaching the students. i cant see why anyone would complain about them. but then again one mans pleasure may be another's poison.

rcsi doesnt spoon-feed you. thats a fact. you can float by under the radar for 5 years and not know anything and probably almost barely get thru if you manage to fake a really good clinical exam. when comes time to apply for residencies not many premier institutions may bite, for your academic history always shows. if you end up in 250k in debt after that then it may not seem worth it in the first place. but thats life. just because you spend 250 k for med school doesnt mean you will get your super high usmle scores. that requires work. with extremely strong motivation, teaching in RCSI is more than enough to get your foot in. strong recommendations from Mr Bouchier-Hayes, Mr Hickey and Dr Buckley can open doors. and they have. cleveland clinic- urology, UCSF-opthal etc. BWH/Harvard - Int Med. Hopkins - ENT. Plastic surgery for some dude who graduated in 2006. matches in radiology etc. but these people got it with bloody hard work. simple as that. 250k wont replace that. dont expect it to.

med school anywhere requires a lot of self motivation. we are adults after all, and should not expect anything less.

bottom line is its expensive to go to rcsi. if you can afford it, with hard work and its reputation and connections with some premier north american institutions, you will get somewhere. but please dont blame the hefty price tag and value for money if you do bad. opportunities to do well are there, and the fact is that many people in your year will excel. so if they can, why cant you?

 

[Badkarma25]

i really have to throw my hat into the ring here on this issue because it's something i spar with my friends over a lot....

now that i've been here almost 3 years i think i'm qualified to speak up. first of all, let me say i have no problem paying the amounts of tuition required. that was made clear up front, i knew that going in and i won't complain about that. i made a choice. i don't even expect teh school to cater to me. i realize they are here to educate irish doctors primarily. i think it would be nice if they weren't so disorganized and could tell us our exam dates earlier than nov 20 so i wouldn't have to pay double for a christmas flight home, but what can you do.....

i do have to agree with some of the earlier posters though, not getting value for your dollar is upsetting no matter what. as far as education goes (i'm at ucd), i feel i'm getting pretty good value. no horror stories like the wasted 3rd year at RCSI, so i'm pretty lucky. overall the thing that i find most difficult to take here is that no one seems able to do anything right the first time here, if at all. so when people tell me i should embrace the relaxed attitude of hte irish it really burns me.

i've had to do so much running around because either someone made a mistake when i was trying to do something this time, or the person that did it for me the last time made a mistake and im' trying to do the same thing again but this person tells me the last person made a mistake. overall life here is very frustrating. that's not to say i don't have a good time, and i really don't have any complaints about my education, but you should really know coming in here that getting anyone to do what they are supposed to here is next to impossible, and when someone else screws up (which invariably happens), they always have a lengthy explanation as to why it's your fault and not theirs. that is the hardest thing to take; no one takes responsibility. and yes, i have many examples to bakc this up, from the mundane to the extreme, so just ask.

whew. that feels better.

 

[deleted21609]

It is telling that positive comments about Irish schools are almost always from applicants and lower-level students while comments from upper-levels and graduates are much more negative.

Out of thousands of graduates, being able to name five or ten who did very well in the US isn't saying much. Did the cleveland clinic- urology, UCSF-opthal etc., have parents/relatives there? Did they have PhD's? Are the radiologists from 10 years ago when it was very non-competitive? There's probably something more to the placement than meets the eye. Even if there isn't, they are the exception to the rule.

People on this board seem to act as if anyone who doesn't get a stellar residency just didn't work hard enough. That's just not the case. Sure with thousands of graduates you'll find a few who score in the top percentile on the USMLEs. Most people will not get a 250 no matter how hard they study. You think that when it comes time for you to take your USMLE, you'll work so hard that you'll just pound out a 250. Good luck and a few of you will get it, but most of you won't- not because of laziness but because it's hard.

You should work hard, but we shouldn't pretend that that's all it takes. You are fighting your way up from a severe disadvantage. The education is subpar. Ask the few people lucky enough to transfer out? I know 2 of them, and they have no doubt in their well-informed minds. and they aren't from rcsi btw

 

[leorl]

Blah blah blah same old same old. I'm nearly finished med here and I have no complaints. Does Irish ed help USMLE prep? Not really, but get your head around the differences in the ed system and the way we learn some of the info and it's fine. Does it take a lot of work? Yes. Will you get a fantastic score? Maybe, depends on you, but most possibly No. That doesn't mean you aren't learning the same info or that the education is subpar. You're learning the same thing, only in a different way. Clinically, it doesn't matter in practice. Will you be heading off to Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, JHU, etc? who knows? maybe not, who cares? you take that risk by deciding to come here, and you know it. If that kind of thing is so important to you, don't come here and stop biatching.

I agree with BadKarma to some degree re: the Irish culture. But I don't think it's that bad so either I'm more tolerant of it or I haven't had as bad experiences with it. Sure, it's inefficient, the Irish are great at talking and not so good at doing. I've had my share of frustration and arguments regarding the way things are done (or not done as the case may be) but I usually end up getting my way in the end. You just have to learn how to play them right, and part of that is personality. If you go in like most Americans do, whining and complaining and demanding that you be taken care of, you won't get anywhere. It's really hard not to do that sometimes when it's your 2nd or 3rd time trying to take care of an issue, but it's just a matter of learning how to deal with the people. Either charm them or back them into a corner they can't get out of, and you're sorted. Having said all that, there've been many times I've been pleasantly surprised by how quickly someone got back to me or favors the admin have done me when I haven't exactly been on the ball.

It's like going anywhere. There's pros and cons to every place. It's up to you to figure out how you'll handle it.

 

[deleted21609]

Ha. Same old out of leorl too.

My point is that the vast majority of us will not score at the top of the USMLE no matter how hard we work (I did perfectly well though not THAT high). It has nothing to do with Ireland even though it's education IS subpar. No school in the world can make most people get 250s. I'm not complaining about the lack of USMLE prep in Ireland. You can prepare on your own. The problem is that the extraordinary results of the tiny minority of students in Ireland are presented as if it might just happen to you. You can't match that well as an Irish grad w/o connections without those extraordinary results on exams, and fact is, you probably aren't going to score that high.

Of course they don't provide USMLE stats at all (not surprisingly given poor results), but if they did we could see that it's a rare gem indeed who makes the highly edited list of match results that is frequently quoted. With US schools you can see their entire match results, year by year. Irish schools don't provide this information because it will discourage applicants. The Atlantic Bridge is propaganda. When I applied they said that 100% of grads seeking residencies in the US got them. LIE! They should post yearly match results & USMLE pass rates and averages at each school, but they don't. They don't because it would interfere with their mission of misleading you.

Somebody has to share the truth even if it is a buzz kill to the fresh cash cows.

 

[tivark]

"Out of thousands of graduates, being able to name five or ten who did very well in the US isn't saying much. Did the cleveland clinic- urology, UCSF-opthal etc., have parents/relatives there? Did they have PhD's? Are the radiologists from 10 years ago when it was very non-competitive? There's probably something more to the placement than meets the eye. Even if there isn't, they are the exception to the rule."

the ccf-urology match guy had incredible stats all through-out med school. i think he graduated second in his class. during intern year he received great recommendations from Mr Hickey, the internationally reknowned urologist in beaumont. radiology matches were for the graduating class of 2005(USIMG) and 2006(canadian, prelim at harvard). they had excellent credentials too.

youre right, they are the exception to the rule. why? cause the rule is 70% of people dont do as well as these guys in usmles. could it be it was their education at rcsi and extremely hard work?

do they cater specifically for the usmles? ofcourse not. probably only 10% of your class will take it. probably only 5% of them would really be serious and go on and complete all the steps. every year rcsi invites a couple of speakers to talk about the usmles. the prog. director of baylor, an endocrinologist from harvard (ex rcsi grad) etc. nothing much more than that.

then there are those students in rcsi that take usmles with 1 mnth of studying, or do so for 'back up' or because their best friends are doing it they just feel compelled. do they pass? no idea, probably not. but im sure its more to do with motivation than actual education provided.

for the years that i was there, everyone i know that went to the match matched in something. ive never heard of any that didnt. but then again this was all word of mouth - not statistics. i wish they would publish the match percentage cause im extremely confident it would be high.

in any case you make your future. if others can do it you can too. if you have an extra 10k to spend rcsi wouldnt be a bad option at all. hey preppy kids arent all dinguses you know, some know how to have fun!

 

[deleted21609]

in any case you make your future. if others can do it you can too.

This is less true than you think. A lot of people with good grades and scores don't get the future they made for themselves and seemed to have earned. They aren't mentioned in the advertising...

 

[leorl]

Of course they don't provide USMLE stats at all (not surprisingly given poor results), but if they did we could see that it's a rare gem indeed who makes the highly edited list of match results that is frequently quoted. With US schools you can see their entire match results, year by year. Irish schools don't provide this information because it will discourage applicants. The Atlantic Bridge is propaganda. When I applied they said that 100% of grads seeking residencies in the US got them. LIE! They should post yearly match results & USMLE pass rates and averages at each school, but they don't. They don't because it would interfere with their mission of misleading you.

Somebody has to share the truth even if it is a buzz kill to the fresh cash cows.

Firstly, can you give examples of how exactly the Irish system is subpar?

Secondly, connections help obviously...but nepotism helps in the US too. It isn't an FMG-only problem. Even in electives, some of us found it difficult without connections...but several did manage to get electives in advertised non-FMG places without having connections.

Thirdly, I agree with the above. Yeah, they should provide stats and definitely a current match list. The stats thing I might be able to understand -they probably wouldn't be capable of organizing a cohesive stats list (understaffed, unorganized, etc etc etc). Same with the match list, although you'd think it wouldn't be that hard. But here's the thing - because they're not doing it, we should. If you don't like the way something is being done, you do it yourself.

I'll try to get a list of Trinity students graduating this year and where they're going (some of them are staying in Ireland). If some other SDN members are able to do it from RCSI, UCD and UCC, we can compile our own current list for 2006.

 

[tivark]

there was a match list in rcsi made by students who matched for their juniors to use as referrence/guidance for graduating years of 2004 and 2005. too bad i dont have it with me. also they come with real names and email addresses so if someone were to post them please censor that part in respect of privacy.

if u see the list of interviews some of the students received, especially with their quite a bit less than 99 grades, you guys might be surprised as to how much school reputation matters.

 

[Jammer]

strong recommendations from Mr Bouchier-Hayes, Mr Hickey and Dr Buckley can open doors. and they have. cleveland clinic- urology, UCSF-opthal etc. BWH/Harvard - Int Med. Hopkins - ENT. Plastic surgery for some dude who graduated in 2006. matches in radiology etc. but these people got it with bloody hard work. simple as that.

I personally know two of the people that you have referred to in the above paragraph. I can assure you that none of the above named individuals from RCSI pulled any strings to help them to match in their top tier U.S. residency positions.

Although, it is true that some individuals at RCSI have strong connections to certain programs in the U.S., remember that these are very specific places. Most of the places that you may apply to will view you as just another FMG.

 

[Jammer]

for the years that i was there, everyone i know that went to the match matched in something. ive never heard of any that didnt. but then again this was all word of mouth - not statistics. i wish they would publish the match percentage cause im extremely confident it would be high.

Every year there are several people that apply for residency in North America and don't match. The truth is that out of the 60 odd North Americans that are in each class at RCSI, less than half apply for residency in the U.S. for various reasons including a desire to pursue further training in Ireland, but also poor academic/USMLE performance. Also, you need to take into account the quality of the program that people are matching into and where have they ranked the program on their rank list. This is all information that is very hard to obtain; people don't really advertize when they don't match or when they match at their fifth or sixth ranked program.