When do people normally take the BMAT & UKCAT? And what prep books are helpful?

[jmdoc007]

Hello, I was just wondering, when do persons normally take the UKCAT and/or BMAT exams (i.e. In the 11th grade, 12th, 13th)? Also, are there any prep/review books for either of the exams that are generally viewed as very helpful, or that you personally found helpful (e.g. Kaplan [for SAT])? Thank you for your time, your responses will be greatly appreciated.

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[JohnSnow]

Hello, I was just wondering, when do persons normally take the UKCAT and/or BMAT exams (i.e. In the 11th grade, 12th, 13th)? Also, are there any prep/review books for either of the exams that are generally viewed as very helpful, or that you personally found helpful (e.g. Kaplan [for SAT])? Thank you for your time, your responses will be greatly appreciated.

I know the UKCAT has to be sat before sometime in mid-October. It's an aptitude test so it's difficult to prepare for, it doesn't test science knowledge and there aren't very many prep books available, just buy whatever Amazon sells to give you an idea of the questions they will ask.

Are you in school in the US or UK?

If you're a US student and interested in studying the UK, I would recommend taking the UKCAT in August or September of your senior year of high school (12th grade) for admission the following Fall into a UK school.

AP, A-level, or IB sciences (chemistry, and biology &/or physics) are incredibly important to your application so do well in those subjects!

That's about the extent of my knowledge of the UK system. Good luck!

EDIT: UCAS only lets you apply to 4 UK medical schools. I'd recommending picking schools in places that you want to study and with programs that you are interested in. My personal recommendations would be studying London, Edinburgh, or Glasgow. I've spent a considerable amount of time in all 3 cities and none of them disappoint!

 

[jmdoc007]

Thanks for the reply. I'm neither from the US or UK, I'm from the Caribbean, so we follow the British education system and go up to grade 13. We don't take A-levels anymore though, and instead have our own regional exam :/. Since the Caribbean exams may not be as easily recognized, would you recommend taking the SAT/ACT (as many UK unis accept this for American students) to use as an alternative?

Also, is it only 4 medical schools we're allowed to apply to? I thought it was 5.Is there no way to get around this and apply to more? Like not applying through UCAS (i.e. sending in a physical application to universities themselves), is that possible?

What advice would you give an international student who really wants to go to a UK med school to help boost his/her application, considering the no. of international spots at any given school are probably somewhere between 10-20 (correct me if I'm wrong) and the competition is stiff? If possible, can you tell exactly how stiff the competition is for internationals? Is it near impossible to get a space? And about what is the acceptance rate/percentage of international students? Do you know where I can find examples of the kind of apps accepted students normally have?

One last question: I heard that UK universities don't care about your in school grades (like how US unis care about GPA) and all they care about is your standardized test scores (i.e. A levels, UKCAT, BMAT, etc.) and your extracurricular activities. Is this true?

Thanks for all the help

 

[JohnSnow]

Thanks for the reply. I'm neither from the US or UK, I'm from the Caribbean, so we follow the British education system and go up to grade 13. We don't take A-levels anymore though, and instead have our own regional exam :/. Since the Caribbean exams may not be as easily recognized, would you recommend taking the SAT/ACT (as many UK unis accept this for American students) to use as an alternative?

Also, is it only 4 medical schools we're allowed to apply to? I thought it was 5.Is there no way to get around this and apply to more? Like not applying through UCAS (i.e. sending in a physical application to universities themselves), is that possible?

What advice would you give an international student who really wants to go to a UK med school to help boost his/her application, considering the no. of international spots at any given school are probably somewhere between 10-20 (correct me if I'm wrong) and the competition is stiff?

One last question: I heard that UK universities don't care about your in school grades (like how US unis care about GPA) and all they care about is your standardized test scores (i.e. A levels, UKCAT, BMAT, etc.) and your extracurricular activities. Is this true?

Thanks for all the help

I don't know a whole lot because I don't go to medical school in the UK, I only looked into briefly.

UCAS typically lets you apply to 5 programs, but for whatever reason when you're applying for medicine they only allow 4 universities. And no, you can't apply to universities individually.

UK scores do care about your grades, but mostly only concerning your A-level (or equivalent) performance. Can you take IB (International Baccalaureate) courses in the Caribbean? I know IB & AP are see as equivalent to A-levels (or Highers and Advanced Highers in Scotland).

Another option that you have is taking A-levels in the UK over the course of a year. There are colleges that offer such programs. If you go this route take A/AS level Chemistry, Biology &/or Physics and work hard to get As, they're very important.

I know the UK schools tend to put a HUGE emphasis on A-level/AP/IB Chemistry. It's by far the most important class for consideration but it can also be the most challenging.

I do know some students who were rejected from UK med schools. Apparently there is a thorough review of applications and one of the major weeding out factors was people not having experience in the medical field. I don't know how things work in the Caribbean but getting first aid certification and being a lifeguard at a pool or a first responder volunteer, or something similar, would be beneficial to your application as a high-school aged student.

It's typical for most UK medical students to have gotten accepted with something like 20 hours of shadowing a doctor as their "experience" in the medical field. Obviously, as an international applicant this is one area where you can really put in some extra effort to make yourself standout by getting involved in an extracurricular activity. However, extracurriculars do not replace poor grades so focus on getting those As.

Also make sure you write a good essay because admissions committees analyze it and give you a score for "motivation". It's kind of foreign to me, but I suppose they get so many qualified applicants that they need to draw the line somewhere.

Standardized test scores like UKCAT are typically only used a selection factor if you fulfill the admissions requirements (primarily the AAA grades or AAB, for some schools, in your A-levels). Also, each university has different requirements whether they want UKCAT, BMAT, or neither. So look that up. I'd suggest just taking the UKCAT as most of the schools will accept it, unless you really want to go to a university that wants BMAT.

If your goal is strictly to study in the UK (which is a great choice) avoid the insanely popular schools like Oxford & Cambridge that are most likely to attract highly qualified international applicants, and a lot of them! Instead focus on lesser-known universities on the international circuit that will draw fewer international applicants, and hopefully fewer quality applicants.

The University of Edinburgh has an great reputation for medicine, its one of the top universities in the world for medicine, if I was applying to the UK that is the one top-tier school I'd throw into my application it's just such a vibrant city with a great culture.

The University of Glasgow takes a good number of internationals and it's a also a good city! If you've got the right grades you would have a really good chance at getting into medicine there as it isn't the most popular university in the UK. The medical school is in a brand-new building that was only opened a couple of years ago; the campus is beautiful, and it's located in Glasgow's west end, the safest, and most affluent, part of the city.

 

[jmdoc007]

Thanks yet again. I was looking at the 4 universities you recommended in your 1st post and so far only KCL accepts the Caribbean regional exams as they consider it equivalent to A levels. Of course other universities do consider it equivalent such as Cambridge but I'm not really looking into it of such. Edinburgh flat out stated that they ONLY accept foreign students with A-levels or IB.

I can take IB down here, there are currently 2 schools which offer it but I looked into IB before and you can only take 2 sciences. I don't know if the other 2 med schools your recommended do accept the Caribbean exams, that would probably require me emailing/calling them.

In regards to shadowing, I tried contacting every hospital in the country and all said that they don't offer shadowing, only volunteering. So I am going to see if I can try and speak to some doctors in their own private practices.

Oh, I found a website which tells how many internationals each school accepts and Glasgow only accepts 18. Is this really and truly a lot (compared to others; Oxford for e.g. only accepts 7)? Or is this average for a UK med school? Because with <20 available spaces it makes it seem as if it is near impossible for internationals to get in. What do you think about this?

I know you said you didn't do much research on this, but do you by any chance know any of these programs where I can do the A levels in the UK?

 

[JohnSnow]

Thanks yet again. I was looking at the 4 universities you recommended in your 1st post and so far only KCL accepts the Caribbean regional exams as they consider it equivalent to A levels. Of course other universities do consider it equivalent such as Cambridge but I'm not really looking into it of such. Edinburgh flat out stated that they ONLY accept foreign students with A-levels or IB.

I can take IB down here, there are currently 2 schools which offer it but I looked into IB before and you can only take 2 sciences. I don't know if the other 2 med schools your recommended do accept the Caribbean exams, that would probably require me emailing/calling them.

In regards to shadowing, I tried contacting every hospital in the country and all said that they don't offer shadowing, only volunteering. So I am going to see if I can try and speak to some doctors in their own private practices.

Oh, I found a website which tells how many internationals each school accepts and Glasgow only accepts 18. Is this really and truly a lot (compared to others; Oxford for e.g. only accepts 7)? Or is this average for a UK med school? Because with <20 available spaces it makes it seem as if it is near impossible for internationals to get in. What do you think about this?

I know you said you didn't do much research on this, but do you by any chance know any of these programs where I can do the A levels in the UK?

The most places the universities will make available is about 20. But that is a reasonable allotment since class sizes typically range between 100-200 students (including locals), perhaps a little less.

If you get the all-important 3 As in your A-levels/IB, with mediocre extracurriculars, you should have no problem getting into a UK school somewhere. All of the UK medical schools have a strong worldwide reputation, it's like graduating from a US school. So you may not end up in a popular city like London, Edinburgh, or Glasgow but I think you will find a place.

There are so many colleges that offer A-levels (and IB) in the UK. A quick google search should yield many options. Also keep in mind you can take 'Highers' & 'Advanced Highers' which are the Scottish equivalent of England & Wales' A-levels and will be equally recognized. Although, the A-level route will require you to take fewer courses and there are also more programs offering them, so that is what I would recommend.

As far as shadowing a doctor goes have you tried phoning your family doctor and asking him directly? Rather than go through hospitals I would suggest contacting local doctors in a field that interests you.

Oh, I think a lot of the UK schools only require A-level Chemistry and Biology or Physics with a non-science subject as well. So if you can take IB Chemistry & Biology or Physics with another IB non-science course that may be viewed as the equivalent. But you should get in touch with the universities and ask them directly or check out the admissions requirements on their websites.

 

[jmdoc007]

So about how many people apply for those 20 spaces? You make it seem like it's not very hard to get into some schools once you get 3A's but the fact that there are only 20 spaces makes it seem extremely hard to get in. So am I wrong, is it that it's not that hard? Is it like 30 people applying for those 20 spaces or 50 or 100 or 200 or what?

How hard is it to get into Edinburgh, as hard as Oxbridge? And are UCL and Imperial hard to get into, or medium difficulty or relatively easy?

Thanks for all the help so far, you have been EXTREMELY helpful

 

[JohnSnow]

So about how many people apply for those 20 spaces? You make it seem like it's not very hard to get into some schools once you get 3A's but the fact that there are only 20 spaces makes it seem extremely hard to get in. So am I wrong, is it that it's not that hard? Is it like 30 people applying for those 20 spaces or 50 or 100 or 200 or what?

How hard is it to get into Edinburgh, as hard as Oxbridge? And are UCL and Imperial hard to get into, or medium difficulty or relatively easy?

Thanks for all the help so far, you have been EXTREMELY helpful

All of the schools are extremely competitive, it's medical school after all! Even the low-tier schools are challenging to get into. I talk about getting 3 As in your A-levels like it's easy, it's not. Not many people put up those kind of scores, and if you do, you have a great shot at finding your place somewhere.

Edinburgh is definitely hard to get into. Probably not as hard as Oxford or Cambridge because those are consistently ranked amongst the top 5 universities in the world so they've got the strongest reputations of all the UK schools. I would describe the University of Edinburgh as an 'elite' medical school, and it's reputation for medicine is very well-known worldwide. Think of it as like 1c, and Oxford & Cambridge are 1a & 1b. However, the University of Edinburgh is located in a fantastic city.

I don't know the exact numbers of international applicants fielded worldwide but I'd guess the numbers range anywhere from 200 - 1000 for each school, which is pretty standard of good medical schools. Even schools in the United States get between 1,500 and 10,000 applicants for each spot available in class sizes that are roughly 150 students. So the odds aren't really favorable anywhere if you want a quality education!

My advice to you would be to stop worrying about the ratio of applicants to places, you'll just get demoralized, focus on your studies and getting As in A-level courses. I'd recommend buying A-level review books, and studying your arse off over the summer before you begin to get yourself very familiar with the material before you start the courses... if you choose to go that route. I can't stress the importance of getting As enough! Bs simply do not cut it in the medical world!

Keep in mind the reason a lot of internationals would apply to the UK is because they don't have the stats to go in their home country. So by getting As in all your classes that 'count' would greatly increase your chances of getting accepted.

I have no doubt in my mind that if you do the accelerated 1-year A-levels (they're usually taken over 2 years in high school) at a UK college, Get an A in Chemistry, Biology, & Physics that you will find a place in a UK medical school!

 

[jmdoc007]

1000 int'l applicants for 20 spaces does sound demoralizing, but I'll take your advice and not look at the ratios and I guess they would accept more than 20 people as know univesity has a 100% yield so they may accept say 35 people for 20 spaces so it may not be as bad as it seems.

Out of curiosity, in which category would you place University of Birmingham?

Once again, thank you. I am very grateful for your advice and suggestions.

 

[JohnSnow]

1000 int'l applicants for 20 spaces does sound demoralizing, but I'll take your advice and not look at the ratios and I guess they would accept more than 20 people as know univesity has a 100% yield so they may accept say 35 people for 20 spaces so it may not be as bad as it seems.

Out of curiosity, in which category would you place University of Birmingham?

Once again, thank you. I am very grateful for your advice and suggestions.

Oh, God. I'm no real authority on UK medical schools. I kinda just know where the ones I looked at stand in terms of how many applicants they get.

I will say this, all of the UK medical schools will give you a first rate education that will be recognized just about everywhere in the world.

I suppose the best advice I could give you would be to pick 1-2 universities that you absolutely would love to study at. And 2 schools that are "off the radar" a bit, try to get statistics on the numbers of applicants they receive and look for the ones with the least competition.

I really don't know much about Birmingham the only thing I can tell you is that it's generally not considered one of the 'top tier' UK medical schools (like Edinburgh, Cambridge, or Oxford)

 

[bambi]

I will admit I have only glanced at this thread but a lot of what I have seen is nonsense.

All UK schools are considered equal, there are NO TIERS, no tiers whatsoever and anyone that tells you different is essentially just making things up based on their personal preferences. Obviously people have their own preferences and those in other countries are more likely to recognise the name of any school in a big city with the name of that city in the name of the med school.

Oxbridge tends to have lower applicant numbers in general than other schools.

Despite the limited places in UK schools for foreign students, it is generally considered easier for them to get in.

How difficult it is to get into a particular school depends on the applicant. All schools now essentially want the same grades - there really is minimal variation. Some schools place more emphasis on entrance exams so if your scores suck it will be harder for you personally to get in there, that doesn't mean it is a particularly hard school to get into. Some schools are big on long-term volunteering, others sports or music etc. You need to find the place that matches best what you have done. You might find a school relatively easy to get into that others would just never get into.

As for not caring about school grades. In the UK there aren't really separate school grades, everything you do that is properly marked is coursework so part of your A levels anyway. If random bits of homework are marked then no, they don't count for UK students and wont count for you. The only grades they will ever see are those of standardised things.

The point of UCAS only allowing 4 med school applications is because as far as they are concerned if you aren't good enough to get into 1 of 4 schools you just aren't good enough to get into med school. They expect you to use your 5th choice for another back-up course, you used to get 6 choices, 2 as back-up.

Also there is no med school called Queen Mary - it's Barts and it has a fantastic reputation as does The Royal London - one of it's main teaching hospitals. It is a world renowned centre and the focus of numerous documentaries etc.

There are no-where near 1000 applications from international students for any UK med school. Most websites will give you overall application numbers and they are usually around 3000, a third of those are not from internationals. A better guess would be 100, so about 1 in 5 get in, much better than the stats for home students. Some places will have significantly lower international applications than that anyway.

Glasgow? Really?

 

[jmdoc007]

^Thanks for the response. What schools do you think get a lower number of international applicants? Also, which schools are big on international volunteering? Thanks again.

 

[bambi]

^Thanks for the response. What schools do you think get a lower number of international applicants? Also, which schools are big on international volunteering? Thanks again.

If you email or call the schools they will give you the numbers, this really isn't that difficult.

If you were a home student and didn't have volunteering experience you wouldn't get in, it is that simple, the longer term the better, the more unusual, the better. As a foreign student they will be more lenient on some things but you have to show you have a reasonable idea of what it takes to be a doctor and that you understand what a doctor really does day to day. If you have nothing to show that, even if it is in some distant way, you will not get in and you shouldn't get in.

 

[JohnSnow]

Of course tiers exist! Obviously a school like Edinburgh is going to get more quality international applicants than a school like Keele. That suggests it's in a higher tier.

 

[bambi]

Of course tiers exist! Obviously a school like Edinburgh is going to more quality international applicants than a school like Keele.

Wrong. Tiers really do not exist and it is misleading of you to tell people otherwise. Tiers exist in other countries and maybe you are more familiar with them so assume they exist everywhere but they really don't.

You admitted yourself you don't know that much about the UK system so why argue with people that do and have been through it and know hundreds of other people personally who also have? Really?

Also, Barts isn't the least popular of the London schools. Depending on your definition it could actually be considered the most popular but I can't think of any definition in which it would be classed as the least, (I didn't go to Barts by the way in case you wondered).

My only gripe is that you are providing incorrect information, I know you aren't doing it deliberately but it is incorrect.

 

[jmdoc007]

Well, can either of you tell me what schools would an international statistically have a higher chance of acceptance to? Excluding Oxford (even though you (bambi) said that they receive less international applicants, Oxford only has 7 internarional spaces and those people awarded woth spaces would no doubt have to be a superstar in every single area). Besides, you can only apply to either Oxford or Cambridge and I would apply to Cambridge if left with the choice for various reasons. So, can you please tell me 3 or 4 schools which are statistically easier for an international to get into please? Thanks in advanced.

 

[bambi]

Well, can either of you tell me what schools would an international statistically have a higher chance of acceptance to? Excluding Oxford (even though you (bambi) said that they receive less international applicants, Oxford only has 7 internarional spaces and those people awarded woth spaces would no doubt have to be a superstar in every single area). Besides, you can only apply to either Oxford or Cambridge and I would apply to Cambridge if left with the choice for various reasons. So, can you please tell me 3 or 4 schools which are statistically easier for an international to get into please? Thanks in advanced.

Oxbridge receive fewer applications overall, not just from internationals, mostly because the required stats are a little higher or people just don't think they would get in so don't bother to apply. Pick a school you like, they will ask you why you applied to them specifically, you can't say it's because you thought they would be easy to get into. Courses and cities vary significantly, you don't want to be stuck on a course in a city you hate for 5-6 years. You seem a bit unrealistic about the number of places for international students in general to be honest, it isn't going to be loads anywhere and why should it be?

 

[jmdoc007]

I don't know, I guess it's because I'm not used to seeing schools accept as little international students as 7 and 10 and 20 and so forth and this sort of worries me as I REALLY want to go to a UK university.

About the interviews, do all the universities host their interviews around the same general time period, or would international students have to fly between the UK and their home countries approximately 3-4 times. Or are telephone interviews available?

 

[bambi]

I don't know, I guess it's because I'm not used to seeing schools accept as little international students as 7 and 10 and 20 and so forth and this sort of worries me as I REALLY want to go to a UK university.

About the interviews, do all the universities host their interviews around the same general time period, or would international students have to fly between the UK and their home countries approximately 3-4 times. Or are telephone interviews available?

Interviews are anywhere between November and March-ish, I don't remember exactly, it was a long time ago for me. Some schools may offer interviews in other countries, phone interviews will not be possible. At most you will have 4 anyway which isn't that bad, if you get in you will be flying back and forth several times a year anyway. 20 is loads for international places!

 

[jmdoc007]

So what advice do you have for me then, in order to increase my chances of acceptance bambi? Is there anything I can do in particular to make my app stand out from the other 99 people who would be applying?

 

[bambi]

So what advice do you have for me then, in order to increase my chances of acceptance bambi? Is there anything I can do in particular to make my app stand out from the other 99 people who would be applying?

Have As in every exam you have ever done. Do long term volunteering - a couple of years of holiday/weekend stuff, have several different things, something unusual will make you stand out more than shadowing a random doctor. Do all the extra things at school - prefect, clubs etc. Be grade 8 in any instrument and play a sport at a national level.

Most people have some combo of the above, not usually all of it. Grades, volunteering and something that makes you more human are a must though. Things like research are not expected of school leavers because you simply wont have had the opportunity to do it usually.

 

[jmdoc007]

When you say something unusual, what kind of things do you mean? Also, for the volunteering, the universities require at least a copy of your sign-up sheet to ensure that you actually did volunteer for XYZ hours right?

 

[bambi]

When you say something unusual, what kind of things do you mean? Also, for the volunteering, the universities require at least a copy of your sign-up sheet to ensure that you actually did volunteer for XYZ hours right?

I mean something more than shadowing. It doesn't necessarily have to all be medical, just people related.

There are no sign-in sheets for most things, the application process wouldn't allow for you to provide them anyway. You will be expected to be able to talk in depth about all your experiences though so if you made something up you would get found out.