Regretting DO route?

[Goro]

lol today’s Step1 news changes things.

I'm afraid to set foot in the MD student forum, for all the angst that's overflowing there.

The sky isn't falling.

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[Tinyhandz]

With the Step 1 change, yea I regret the change. I am right at the change in class of 2024. Didn't think such a thing would pass. I am gunning for Primary Care(Psychiatry) but still don't know if I will end up in FM.

 

[Whysoez]

With the Step 1 change, yea I regret the change. I am right at the change in class of 2024. Didn't think such a thing would pass. I am gunning for Primary Care(Psychiatry) but still don't know if I will end up in FM.

I am right there with you buddy. Gunning for Academic IM, all down hill since I woke up this morning and decided to check out SDN for my morning dose of news.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

With the Step 1 change, yea I regret the change. I am right at the change in class of 2024. Didn't think such a thing would pass. I am gunning for Primary Care(Psychiatry) but still don't know if I will end up in FM.

Bro chill, psych is hardly derm or ortho. Jus relax I know people who failed multiple boards and they matched psych, I know people with subpar scores and no research who matched a uni psych programs, it’s all about your personality/fit and LOR’s with psych. Apply broadly, take step 2 and do well on psych rotations and you should have no problem matching psych. There’s also like atleast 18 DO/former AOA programs that will take your comlex into account even in 2022. Just relax!

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I am right there with you buddy. Gunning for Academic IM, all down hill since I woke up this morning and decided to check out SDN for my morning dose of news.

Again relax, mid/lower tier Uni IM programs have traditionally taken DO’s, sure it could be they had decent step scores but I know of atleast 1 of our alumni who’s at LSU NO IM and he only took comlex and he’s gunning for a GI fellowship, honor your IM rotations, get good letters and get involved in some research and you should have no issues matching even in 2022 to those DO friendly programs.

 

[CosmeticLeFort3]

At graduation we ask our students if they could do it all over again, would the do so? Would they do something else? Would they go for MD?

About 5% say that they'd do something else, and another 5% say that they'd go for MD.

Self-hating DO students are real...they beat themselves up and feel that "they weren't good enough" for MD. I suspect that these are people who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle.

But the vast majority of my students are happy to be where they are.

This statement really helped me reframe the way I think about my own situation

 

[Whysoez]

Bro chill, psych is hardly derm or ortho. Jus relax I know people who failed multiple boards and they matched psych, I know people with subpar scores and no research who matched a uni psych programs, it’s all about your personality/fit and LOR’s with psych. Apply broadly, take step 2 and do well on psych rotations and you should have no problem matching psych. There’s also like atleast 18 DO/former AOA programs that will take your comlex into account even in 2022. Just relax!

What about matching in 2024? Winter is coming

 

[hallowmann]

lol today’s Step1 news changes things.

It doesn't change any of our opinions about our paths. The truth is none of us can truly predict what will happen in a few years. We can't guarantee it'll all be fine, because we have no idea what the future will hold. That said, I highly doubt that a ton will really change from an outcome standpoint that wasn't already changing with expansion. This might hasten the change, but I think there's a bit too much fire and brimstone in this forum about this change.

 

[DO_or_Die]

I am grateful that I want to match peds as I feel that peds is viewed as bottom of the barrel so I'm hoping this USMLE decision won't hinder me. By chance anyone think this will effect matching into fellowships? I am interested in PICU.

 

[DO2015CA]

I am grateful that I want to match peds as I feel that peds is viewed as bottom of the barrel so I'm hoping this USMLE decision won't hinder me. By chance anyone think this will effect matching into fellowships? I am interested in PICU.

No it won’t. Peds world is great like that. Any subspecialty is accessible from any residency program

 

[goodtime]

Again relax, mid/lower tier Uni IM programs have traditionally taken DO’s, sure it could be they had decent step scores but I know of atleast 1 of our alumni who’s at LSU NO IM and he only took comlex and he’s gunning for a GI fellowship, honor your IM rotations, get good letters and get involved in some research and you should have no issues matching even in 2022 to those DO friendly programs.

But isn't it hard to get into research at do schools?

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[FutureDoctor5000]

But isn't it hard to get into research at do schools?

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Not really, bench research yes, but you can always do clinical research and write some interesting case reports based on what you see on rotations, you can also do bench research over the summer if you reach out to academic centers, I did that this summer and had no issues finding research opportunities, DO schools also have some bench research, again if you WANT to do it you can.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

But isn't it hard to get into research at do schools?

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There is always educational research opportunities at DO schools.

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

One of the department chairs at freakin Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in Manhattan NY, (THE premier cancer center of the east coast and second best cancer center in the country) is a DO. Bet you homeboy doesn’t regret it.

 

[Goro]

One of the department chairs at freakin Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in Manhattan NY, (THE premier cancer center of the east coast and second best cancer center in the country) is a DO. Bet you homeboy doesn’t regret it.

Dig this lady:

Patricia LoRusso, DO

Pat LoRusso brings more than 25 years of expertise in medical oncology, drug development, and early phase clinical trials. Prior to her Yale appointment, she

www.yalecancercenter.org

 

[Ho0v-man]

One of the department chairs at freakin Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in Manhattan NY, (THE premier cancer center of the east coast and second best cancer center in the country) is a DO. Bet you homeboy doesn’t regret it.

Probably would have been at the best cancer center in the country if he was an MD...

 

[A Ryan Seacrest Type]

Probably would have been at the best cancer center in the country if he was an MD...

Lmaoo yeah probably

 

[deleted876933]

.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

What is this new change to STEP 1 that will affect Do's I am living under a rock apparently

LOL, really!!! Well, first of all, it's going pass/fail in 2022 (most likely what will hurt DOs)
second, more questions on communications and interpersonal skills and No patient management questions starting this May (This will not hurt anyone)

 

[Goro]

What is this new change to STEP 1 that will affect Do's I am living under a rock apparently.

EDIT: Just realized it was the P/F change, I must admit I am very bummed as I almost always score in the top 5% on these types of test historically MCAT SAT ETC. Does this mean that it will be much more difficult to match EM coming from a DO program? I am fine being an FM or PEDs, but EM has always been my dream. How can a DO student differentiate themselves for EM without STEP scores?

Step 2 will be the new ranking screen
Use audition rotations and network.

BTW, only Step 1 is going P/F. COMLEX I is still graded. At a minimum, that's one more screening tool available to overworked PDs. Whether or not they'll use it int he absence of Step I is another matter.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Step 2 will be the new ranking screen
Use audition rotations and network.

BTW, only Step 1 is going P/F. COMLEX I is still graded. At a minimum, that's one more screening tool available to overworked PDs. Whether or not they'll use it int he absence of Step I is another matter.

Also for EM, the SLOE becomes even more important.

Edit: Rumor on the street is that COMLEX will also follow USMLE and go pass/fail this July, which is when their announcement is scheduled.

 

[Goro]

Also for EM, the SLOE becomes even more important.

Edit: Rumor on the street is that COMLEX will also follow USMLE and go pass/fail this July, which is when their announcement is scheduled.

Damn! Forgot about those.
Class rank will always help, too.

Those rumors haven't hit here yet. Maybe wishful thinking?

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Damn! Forgot about those.
Class rank will always help, too.

Those rumors haven't hit here yet. Maybe wishful thinking?

I have to go back and see, but someone linked to an nbome site that gave that information.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I thought I would update this thread as I’m now over 3.5 years out as an attending with a mature practice.

I’m in a very desirable area. No shortage of patients although my practice is majority Ortho trauma but I do elective hip and knee arthroplasty as well. My elective clinic is usually booking 4-6 weeks ahead with next 2 months solidly booked for elective surgery. I was over 90th percentile on productivity and compensation for my specialty last year. Almost all orthopods in my 15 mile radius are MDs, except one. Tons of DO pcps that refer to me exclusively. I’m the busiest surgeon in my group and one of the busiest in the area.

In short, being a DO in no way has limited the number of patients I see/operate on, or my ability to be productive, or my ability to reach my income potential. If anything, it has benefitted me due to a large number of PCPs that are DOs in the area. I haven’t had a single patient ask me what a DO is. Not bad for a lowly DO. I’m forever grateful for being a DO and for providing me the opportunities I have had, forget any regrets.

To all the rising DOs, be hardworking, competent, and personable, you’ll do great.

 

[DOswag]

I thought I would update this thread as I’m now over 3.5 years out as an attending with a mature practice.

I’m in a very desirable area. No shortage of patients although my practice is majority Ortho trauma but I do elective hip and knee arthroplasty as well. My elective clinic is usually booking 4-6 weeks ahead with next 2 months solidly booked for elective surgery. I was over 90th percentile on productivity and compensation for my specialty last year. Almost all orthopods in my 15 mile radius are MDs, except one. Tons of DO pcps that refer to me exclusively. I’m the busiest surgeon in my group and one of the busiest in the area.

In short, being a DO in no way has limited the number of patients I see/operate on, or my ability to be productive, or my ability to reach my income potential. If anything, it has benefitted me due to a large number of PCPs that are DOs in the area. I haven’t had a single patient ask me what a DO is. Not bad for a lowly DO. I’m forever grateful for being a DO and for providing me the opportunities I have had, forget any regrets.

To all the rising DOs, be hardworking, competent, and personable, you’ll do great.

Haven't visited the pre-med forums in a while but I recall being concerned about the whole MD vs DO thing back in the day (around '07-'09). I was in med school '10-'14, did a DO intern year, then MD psych residency. Now active duty psychiatrist about to get out. For those out there concerned about being DO, I'm pretty certain it has had zero impact on my career so far. Never asked about it at all during rotations, residency interviews, time in military, or when I was interviewing for civ jobs post-military. Got a job lined up, outpatient gig for significantly more money than I'm making now, better schedule, no nights or call. I was an average DO student, finished about smack in the middle of my class, with average board scores, no fails, did fine on rotations, no research etc. Not many if anyone really cares once you get out if you're MD or DO.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

PGY-2 IM

No one cares.

Sub-specialty IM PDs? Some may care a tad bit, but honestly, nowadays they care way more whether you are an AMG vs IMG vs FMG.

I still maintain, if I could, I would prefer to have gone to an MD school, but such is life. I do not lose an ounce of sleep over it and I would have missed out on some otherwise important friendships.

 

[soontobedoc98]

PGY-2 IM

No one cares.

Sub-specialty IM PDs? Some may care a tad bit, but honestly, nowadays they care way more whether you are an AMG vs IMG vs FMG.

I still maintain, if I could, I would prefer to have gone to an MD school, but such is life. I do not lose an ounce of sleep over it and I would have missed out on some otherwise important friendships.

AMG = American Medical Graduate

what's an FMG vs an IMG?

 

[soontobedoc98]

I thought I would update this thread as I’m now over 3.5 years out as an attending with a mature practice.

I’m in a very desirable area. No shortage of patients although my practice is majority Ortho trauma but I do elective hip and knee arthroplasty as well. My elective clinic is usually booking 4-6 weeks ahead with next 2 months solidly booked for elective surgery. I was over 90th percentile on productivity and compensation for my specialty last year. Almost all orthopods in my 15 mile radius are MDs, except one. Tons of DO pcps that refer to me exclusively. I’m the busiest surgeon in my group and one of the busiest in the area.

In short, being a DO in no way has limited the number of patients I see/operate on, or my ability to be productive, or my ability to reach my income potential. If anything, it has benefitted me due to a large number of PCPs that are DOs in the area. I haven’t had a single patient ask me what a DO is. Not bad for a lowly DO. I’m forever grateful for being a DO and for providing me the opportunities I have had, forget any regrets.

To all the rising DOs, be hardworking, competent, and personable, you’ll do great.

Congrats. Mind if I PM you?

 

[officially_apostate]

AMG = American Medical Graduate

what's an FMG vs an IMG?

foreign medical grad and international medical grad

 

[soontobedoc98]

foreign medical grad and international medical grad

... are they not the same thing?

 

[DO2015CA]

... are they not the same thing?

International is and American citizen that went to school abroad. FMG is a non-citizen

 

[soontobedoc98]

International is and American citizen that went to school abroad. FMG is a non-citizen

Thank you!!!

 

[DarkHorizon]

Congrats. Mind if I PM you?

Happy to answer an questions

 

[xTinaBna]

Graduated from CCOM in 2011. I'm a very content D.O. I never felt discriminated, no issues getting into allopathic residencies and competitive attending jobs. MD/DO doesnt matter, especially now. Doctor = Doctor.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I am a DO PGY-1 IM at a large academic center I don’t feel it at all.. this academic center has DO’s in everything from CT surgery to neurosurgery to optho… it’s only going to hold you back if YOU want you to hold you back… interacting with people I truly believe the #1 reason we dont see as many academic matches from DO schools is simply the good students from DO schools don’t apply to traditionally MD programs as much. Now with the merger we are seeing this change.. the optho and urology match in 2023 was huge. The more your app looks like an MD on paper(usmle step1 and 2, good letters of recs including from a 4th year sub-I, research in your field) your letters truly won’t hold you back… another reason is also that there are many DO’s with comlex only, no research applying to competitive stuff/places hoping they will be the exception…

 

[soontobedoc98]

I am a DO PGY-1 IM at a large academic center I don’t feel it at all.. this academic center has DO’s in everything from CT surgery to neurosurgery to optho… it’s only going to hold you back if YOU want you to hold you back… interacting with people I truly believe the #1 reason we dont see as many academic matches from DO schools is simply the good students from DO schools don’t apply to traditionally MD programs as much. Now with the merger we are seeing this change.. the optho and urology match in 2023 was huge. The more your app looks like an MD on paper(usmle step1 and 2, good letters of recs including from a 4th year sub-I, research in your field) your letters truly won’t hold you back… another reason is also that there are many DO’s with comlex only, no research applying to competitive stuff/places hoping they will be the exception…

Do you have a link for the Optho and Urology match? Congrats btw

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Do you have a link for the Optho and Urology match? Congrats btw

It’s on Reddit

 

[Ho0v-man]

I am a DO PGY-1 IM at a large academic center I don’t feel it at all.. this academic center has DO’s in everything from CT surgery to neurosurgery to optho… it’s only going to hold you back if YOU want you to hold you back… interacting with people I truly believe the #1 reason we dont see as many academic matches from DO schools is simply the good students from DO schools don’t apply to traditionally MD programs as much. Now with the merger we are seeing this change.. the optho and urology match in 2023 was huge. The more your app looks like an MD on paper(usmle step1 and 2, good letters of recs including from a 4th year sub-I, research in your field) your letters truly won’t hold you back… another reason is also that there are many DO’s with comlex only, no research applying to competitive stuff/places hoping they will be the exception…

Even though the practice essentially died over 5 years ago, there’s still DO students who think they can just do an audition rotation in their desired specialty/program and go into whatever they want after barely scraping by on every objective measure.

 

[DO2015CA]

Even though the practice essentially died over 5 years ago, there’s still DO students who think they can just do an audition rotation in their desired specialty/program and go into whatever they want after barely scraping by on every objective measure.

Serious question, auditions have died? I’m far enough away that it might’ve changed. IM never really cared. Ortho, I’m pretty sure it is still pretty much a requirement. Perhaps auditions are trending towards less important but still specialty specific?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Serious question, auditions have died? I’m far enough away that it might’ve changed. IM never really cared. Ortho, I’m pretty sure it is still pretty much a requirement. Perhaps auditions are trending towards less important but still specialty specific?

Your last sentence pretty much hits the nail on the head. But there’s still students who think that if they just pass the comlex and do the program the honor of showing up on time everyday on their ortho audition then they’re basically ranked to match and that’s just not the case. I’ve seen students think this about most specialties and it’s pure delusion reinforced by lackluster advising.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Also, my initial post was half way through med school or in other words, a really sucky time. So the following is an update on “regretting DO”:

I busted *** and matched my number one program in a moderately competitive specialty. I work side by side with MDs every day and don’t feel one bit out of place. I don’t feel like a DO anymore, really. I’m just a doctor. I actually think I’m a better doctor because I’m a DO. Not because of the magic of osteopathic medicine or anything. But because I knew I’d have to work that much harder to succeed and I think doing that made me better.

TLDR; I don’t regret it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Pretty much agree with everything. I would just add that you were trained to look at patients a little differently than MD students. More focus on posture, gait, lifestyle, etc.. I have taught both MD students and DO students and DOs bring a little different perspective. Absolutely agree with the old Avis car rental motto. "We Try Harder". It makes a difference

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I actually think I’m a better doctor because I’m a DO. Not because of the magic of osteopathic medicine or anything. But because I knew I’d have to work that much harder to succeed and I think doing that made me better.

This.

Honestly the med students I see from my program’s MD school are on average lazier and more entitled than my DO classmates were, expecting to just be given opportunities simply because they are present. It’s an interesting phenomenon I wasn’t expecting

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Serious question, auditions have died? I’m far enough away that it might’ve changed. IM never really cared. Ortho, I’m pretty sure it is still pretty much a requirement. Perhaps auditions are trending towards less important but still specialty specific?

Auditions in surgery and surgical subs have not died. Anesthesia and rads also like auditions now a days. It’s that there are people who are not good candidates and do one audition in a moderately competitive specialty hoping to match..

 

[Ho0v-man]

Auditions in surgery and surgical subs have not died. Anesthesia and rads also like auditions now a days. It’s that there are people who are not good candidates and do one audition in a moderately competitive specialty hoping to match..

You said it better than me. Too many people think showing up for an audition>>>>your entire application.

Not sure about anesthesia. Rads auditions don’t really help you for DR. I believe they do for IR though.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

You said it better than me. Too many people think showing up for an audition>>>>your entire application.

Not sure about anesthesia. Rads auditions don’t really help you for DR. I believe they do for IR though.

Yea I guess you don’t need an audition for rads.. you can do one through your school and get a rads attending letter but at my school that was just a community preceptor and get an IM or surgery letters for rads. But I was thinking doing an audition at a residency program 4th year and getting a letter from that would help no?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yea I guess you don’t need an audition for rads.. you can do one through your school and get a rads attending letter but at my school that was just a community preceptor and get an IM or surgery letters for rads. But I was thinking doing an audition at a residency program 4th year and getting a letter from that would help no?

Like IM, it’s hard to stand out in a good way without being annoying, but even worse imo. There’s not really anything a med student can do that contributes to workflow. Rads residents are still learning everyday. So it’s kind of like a premed shadowing a preclinical med student as they crank out uworld questions and they asked you how you knew that was the answer. There’s a reason med students are sent home early.

I’ve had several med students and the only ones I remember are the annoying ones.

You can do an away at a program and get your letter from the PD. But I don’t know if I’d do this at my top choice tbh.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Like IM, it’s hard to stand out in a good way without being annoying, but even worse imo. There’s not really anything a med student can do that contributes to workflow. Rads residents are still learning everyday. So it’s kind of like a premed shadowing a preclinical med student as they crank out uworld questions and they asked you how you knew that was the answer. There’s a reason med students are sent home early.

I’ve had several med students and the only ones I remember are the annoying ones.

You can do an away at a program and get your letter from the PD. But I don’t know if I’d do this at my top choice tbh.

Sure, med students slow you down. I slowed people down, so did you. Agree, that is often why students get sent home early. As a resident, my Chief mandated that whenever a student was on service, especially a home med school student, we were to ensure a positive teaching experience for them. Or else. He said that is how we attract the best applicants. These students, if they applied, would be considered a " known". Applicants on paper are essentially an " Unknown". I remember 2 residents in particular, one from UCSF, the other from JHU, that left permant scars on my cerebral cortex. We were so eager to accept them the committee didn't perform the necessary due diligence, imo. I believe being a " Known", has some value.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Sure, med students slow you down. I slowed people down, so did you. Agree, that is often why students get sent home early. As a resident, my Chief mandated that whenever a student was on service, especially a home med school student, we were to ensure a positive teaching experience for them. Or else. He said that is how we attract the best applicants. These students, if they applied, would be considered a " known". Applicants on paper are essentially an " Unknown". I remember 2 residents in particular, one from UCSF, the other from JHU, that left permant scars on my cerebral cortex. We were so eager to accept them the committee didn't perform the necessary due diligence, imo. I believe being a " Known", has some value.

I’m only speaking to rads specifically. You just gave a great example of how an audition can hurt the chances of an otherwise good applicant.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I’m only speaking to rads specifically. You just gave a great example of how an audition can hurt the chances of an otherwise good applicant.

I think you misread my post. I referenced 2 Residents, who hadn't auditioned at our program, but came from big name med schools. They were both idiots and presented behavior issues nearly every day. We would have spotted them easily had they spent time with us. Of note, they came.with good LORs. Clearly the home program didn't want them there, just wanted them to go elsewhere.