Regretting DO route?

[Dkingbd]

Does anyone have an argument against this. I'm not saying it isn't a good idea. I just wanted to see if someone had a different prospective that an extra year doing an SMP and losing 300-600k in future income to get into a MD school instead and avoid OMM would be a better option.

First post here but I did exactly this^ I left a DO school after a year due to the disillusionment I experienced there. I took a year to complete a special masters program at a US MD school and was accepted to this US MD school in the first round of admissions this fall as a result. I delayed my career by 2 years but have been infinitely happier as a result.

Some thoughts on my experience:

-I did not fail out, yes I received a couple of C’s but also many A’s and B’s. I was NEVER out of good standing in my DO program. I was quiet student staying average with my class.
-I believe many students there will become fantastic doctors. I also believe that DO’s in general are just as great in medicine as MD’s.
-I still maintain 2 years later that my anatomy professor is the smartest man I have ever met and the most brilliant person that many may ever work under.
-My DO school in particular seemed extremely concerned about their image above anything else and it fed the most toxic environment I have ever experienced. I could not trust many of the other students there and the majority of faculty and administration were more focused on covering their own a**. But hey, we looked great in our ties that we wore every day.
-I do not believe this school will change any time soon, the success their students achieve is absolutely in spite of the school not as a result of it, with the exception of a few brilliant faculty members. I believe a school worried more about its image, like any institution or person, will lose sight of what I believe is most important in medicine; doing a service to help mankind and always fighting to do no harm.

I would say this to the pre meds out there, I genuinely understand the “become a physician at any cost” mindset; it drove me to attend that particular DO instead of spending a year strengthening my application and then reapplying. I have several friends still attending this particular DO school who tell me every time we talk that they wish they had had the courage to leave. They will be doctors 2 years before me but I will have the peace of mind knowing that I took longer but found a school that I love where I have absolutely thrived as a result. If you feel that knot in your gut about the choice of school because their values arent something you believe in, don’t do it. It’s not worth losing yourself, no amount of money can change that. Spend time strengthening yourself as an applicant and a person and go become the doctor you believe you should be.

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[OrganRepo]

Hard nope.

I love my school from the bottom of my heart.

Except for the part where our OMM professors told us that we can perceive micrometer differences and should be able to "feel red blood cells". How you're supposed to differentiate objects significantly smaller than the neurons perceiving it is beyond me.
Also, cranial bones don't f****** move, but that's okay. It's okay. We're all okay.

Push Harder, right on the Pterion

 

[Cornfed101]

If you feel that knot in your gut about the choice of school because their values arent something you believe in, don’t do it.

Specific to your school, or DO schools in general?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

First post here but I did exactly this^ I left a DO school after a year due to the disillusionment I experienced there. I took a year to complete a special masters program at a US MD school and was accepted to this US MD school in the first round of admissions this fall as a result. I delayed my career by 2 years but have been infinitely happier as a result.

Some thoughts on my experience:

-I did not fail out, yes I received a couple of C’s but also many A’s and B’s. I was NEVER out of good standing in my DO program. I was quiet student staying average with my class.
-I believe many students there will become fantastic doctors. I also believe that DO’s in general are just as great in medicine as MD’s.
-I still maintain 2 years later that my anatomy professor is the smartest man I have ever met and the most brilliant person that many may ever work under.
-My DO school in particular seemed extremely concerned about their image above anything else and it fed the most toxic environment I have ever experienced. I could not trust many of the other students there and the majority of faculty and administration were more focused on covering their own a**. But hey, we looked great in our ties that we wore every day.
-I do not believe this school will change any time soon, the success their students achieve is absolutely in spite of the school not as a result of it, with the exception of a few brilliant faculty members. I believe a school worried more about its image, like any institution or person, will lose sight of what I believe is most important in medicine; doing a service to help mankind and always fighting to do no harm.

I would say this to the pre meds out there, I genuinely understand the “become a physician at any cost” mindset; it drove me to attend that particular DO instead of spending a year strengthening my application and then reapplying. I have several friends still attending this particular DO school who tell me every time we talk that they wish they had had the courage to leave. They will be doctors 2 years before me but I will have the peace of mind knowing that I took longer but found a school that I love where I have absolutely thrived as a result. If you feel that knot in your gut about the choice of school because their values arent something you believe in, don’t do it. It’s not worth losing yourself, no amount of money can change that. Spend time strengthening yourself as an applicant and a person and go become the doctor you believe you should be.

What values were out of line in your opinion if I might ask? This would be disturbing if the schools values did not line up with their mission statement.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

First post here but I did exactly this^ I left a DO school after a year due to the disillusionment I experienced there. I took a year to complete a special masters program at a US MD school and was accepted to this US MD school in the first round of admissions this fall as a result. I delayed my career by 2 years but have been infinitely happier as a result.

Some thoughts on my experience:

-I did not fail out, yes I received a couple of C’s but also many A’s and B’s. I was NEVER out of good standing in my DO program. I was quiet student staying average with my class.
-I believe many students there will become fantastic doctors. I also believe that DO’s in general are just as great in medicine as MD’s.
-I still maintain 2 years later that my anatomy professor is the smartest man I have ever met and the most brilliant person that many may ever work under.
-My DO school in particular seemed extremely concerned about their image above anything else and it fed the most toxic environment I have ever experienced. I could not trust many of the other students there and the majority of faculty and administration were more focused on covering their own a**. But hey, we looked great in our ties that we wore every day.
-I do not believe this school will change any time soon, the success their students achieve is absolutely in spite of the school not as a result of it, with the exception of a few brilliant faculty members. I believe a school worried more about its image, like any institution or person, will lose sight of what I believe is most important in medicine; doing a service to help mankind and always fighting to do no harm.

I would say this to the pre meds out there, I genuinely understand the “become a physician at any cost” mindset; it drove me to attend that particular DO instead of spending a year strengthening my application and then reapplying. I have several friends still attending this particular DO school who tell me every time we talk that they wish they had had the courage to leave. They will be doctors 2 years before me but I will have the peace of mind knowing that I took longer but found a school that I love where I have absolutely thrived as a result. If you feel that knot in your gut about the choice of school because their values arent something you believe in, don’t do it. It’s not worth losing yourself, no amount of money can change that. Spend time strengthening yourself as an applicant and a person and go become the doctor you believe you should be.

I would like to add that I often say on this forum, Life is full of choices, make good ones because everything has a price.. You made a choice that was not right for you, so you paid the price of student loans, time lost as an attending, and made a much better choice. Well done! Actually, I wish more of my students would do this. I cannot understand for the life of me why someone would scratch and scrape to get into DO school, and not want to learn OMM, or worse, complain about having to learn it. It looks like you made a very good decision for you. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I would like to add that I often say on this forum, Life is full of choices, make good ones because everything has a price.. You made a choice that was not right for you, so you paid the price of student loans, time lost as an attending, and made a much better choice. Well done! Actually, I wish more of my students would do this. I cannot understand for the life of me why someone would scratch and scrape to get into DO school, and not want to learn OMM, or worse, complain about having to learn it. It looks like you made a very good decision for you. Good luck and best wishes!

Well, I do not want to learn OMM, nor do I believe in every single technique taught to me, but yet, I enjoy the class and lab. Mostly because I kinda consider it as the relaxed part of my journey through medicine (2 hours/week of enjoying free massages and not thinking about all the stuff I have to study), and also because we have one of the best OMM faculty that makes the course so fun and easy. It's pretty much an easy A by just studying the night before the exam. Do I hate being at an osteopathic school? Not at all. Would I prefer being at an MD school? Absolutely. Do I regret not getting an acceptance from my only MD interview 2 years ago? Sometimes. But life goes on, and I get to be a doctor after all. I'm just very humble to be here and be a part of this journey.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I was super stoked about omm coming in. However, a lot of it ends up being complete nonsense and takes up too much time. The parts that are useful in any way make up ~20% of the class and that might even be too generous a number. I feel that’s why many DO students end up bitter about omm. If it was at all like what I experienced shadowing as a premed I’d be all about it.

I would like to add that I often say on this forum, Life is full of choices, make good ones because everything has a price.. You made a choice that was not right for you, so you paid the price of student loans, time lost as an attending, and made a much better choice. Well done! Actually, I wish more of my students would do this. I cannot understand for the life of me why someone would scratch and scrape to get into DO school, and not want to learn OMM, or worse, complain about having to learn it. It looks like you made a very good decision for you. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Well, I do not want to learn OMM, nor do I believe in every single technique taught to me, but yet, I enjoy the class and lab. Mostly because I kinda consider it as the relaxed part of my journey through medicine (2 hours/week of enjoying free massages and not thinking about all the stuff I have to study), and also because we have one of the best OMM faculty that makes the course so fun and easy. It's pretty much an easy A by just studying the night before the exam. Do I hate being at an osteopathic school? Not at all. Would I prefer being at an MD school? Absolutely. Do I regret not getting an acceptance from my only MD interview 2 years ago? Sometimes. But life goes on, and I get to be a doctor after all. I'm just very humble to be here and be a part of this journey.

I appreciate your insight and honesty. So you were less than candid when you interviewed at your school and responded to the question "Why DO"? Or just become disillusioned during school? Lots of OMM translates into practice, with lots of crossover into GP, PMR, Ortho, Rheumatology, Pain Management. I think you might be surprised down the road where your OMM experience will surface and add some additional insight for your patients. Good luck and Best wishes!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I was super stoked about omm coming in. However, a lot of it ends up being complete nonsense and takes up too much time. The parts that are useful in any way make up ~20% of the class and that might even be too generous a number. I feel that’s why many DO students end up bitter about omm. If it was at all like what I experienced shadowing as a premed I’d be all about it.

I get the disillusionment. I'm in a specialty where you would not think OMM would be of any practical purpose. I used it alot. Secondly, your colleagues will expect you to know OMM and treat them. At our school it's about 2 hrs a week, with scattered practicals. I dont consider it a big time drag. But, with all the material to digest during pre clinical, I can see at times it might appear excessive. I think you'll be surprised down the road how often something from OMM will enter into your thoughts when working up patients. Unless you become a Pathologist, then yeah, waste of time. Anyway, thanks for your insight and perspective. Good Luck and Best Wishes!

 

[rg2o3]

Old post but figured I would respond anyway. Current 2nd year at a DO school. The only days I regret it are Wednesdays during OPP and the few hours I study for an exam, or when they purposefully place OPP practicals in the most inconvenient weeks (they take them serious here). I guess I also regret my school choice but that has nothing to do with the education.

 

[rg2o3]

I get the disillusionment. I'm in a specialty where you would not think OMM would be of any practical purpose. I used it alot. Secondly, your colleagues will expect you to know OMM and treat them. At our school it's about 2 hrs a week, with scattered practicals. I dont consider it a big time drag. But, with all the material to digest during pre clinical, I can see at times it might appear excessive. I think you'll be surprised down the road how often something from OMM will enter into your thoughts when working up patients. Unless you become a Pathologist, then yeah, waste of time. Anyway, thanks for your insight and perspective. Good Luck and Best Wishes!

That may be true, but at least at my school, the OPP department makes students want to erase all memories of it upon graduating.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

That may be true, but at least at my school, the OPP department makes students want to erase all memories of it upon graduating.

That is disheartening. It doesnt have to be that way. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Fat_Albert]

Ehhh, I kind of regret it & I kinda don't. DO just made sense to me since I'm not aiming for anything competitive and I don't know if it was worth trying to improve my mcat & delaying life just to have MD behind my name. OMM is def a complete waste of time and it's annoying as hell when there's an omm exam you have to cram for when you have a big ass exam covering 30+ chapters of real science the next week. I didn't really realize the complaint from past students until I started actually going through it because it seems like every hour of your day is important. I also feel inferior to MD students, this will def change once I'm out of here and into the real world, but as of right now I'm def jelly of their ability to just stream lecture from home while my school is anal as hell about attending class just so we stroke the professor's ego

 

[GTown]

No, but it is not for those who are not self-driven when it counts. Unlike our MD counterparts, we often have to go into other people's houses (AKA traditional MD hospitals) and not just have excellent scores but perform at an exemplary level. The end result is obviously good -- most DOs perform at a high level.

If you can't do that or can't develop those habits, the DO route may not be for you. At this point, having a DO degree is neutral at most programs.

I am surprised daily in the practice of pain medicine how often my osteopathic palpation skills are of benefit. My understanding of myofascial strain, acute/chronic musculoskeletal pain, and its contributions to my allopathic specialty (anesthesiology/pain medicine) is really bar none and I can honestly thank my PCOM education for that to a significant degree.

Good luck with your decision.

This may be a bit off topic but I’m a current DO student and would love to know how you’re using OMM in your practice now? How has it helped knowing OMM theory? Thank you!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Lots of patients with non specific low back pain for starters. As a DO, your taught observational skills to a greater degree. OMM has many crossover components with Ortho. Gait, joint exams, emphasis on functional anatomy, the physiology of taught muscles and the physiology behind techniques to relax them. A patient might be in the office after hours of leaf raking in the Fall. We can relax those muscle groups in the office, and give them home exercises, for stretching and reconditioning, and possibly prescribe analgesics. Just one example. Another, I was on an out of town golf outing and one guest played 36 holes. He developed a sore shoulder the next am. He was planning to go home because he could not play. I treated him, got his muscles to relax and he played the final round. The problem with OM is that people expect a binary result. Patients often dont like to follow up at home with lifestyle changes and excerise/stretching programs. So muscles get tight again, rinse and repeat. Hope this adds a little insight.

 

[GTown]

Lots of patients with non specific low back pain for starters. As a DO, your taught observational skills to a greater degree. OMM has many crossover components with Ortho. Gait, joint exams, emphasis on functional anatomy, the physiology of taught muscles and the physiology behind techniques to relax them. A patient might be in the office after hours of leaf raking in the Fall. We can relax those muscle groups in the office, and give them home exercises, for stretching and reconditioning, and possibly prescribe analgesics. Just one example. Another, I was on an out of town golf outing and one guest played 36 holes. He developed a sore shoulder the next am. He was planning to go home because he could not play. I treated him, got his muscles to relax and he played the final round. The problem with OM is that people expect a binary result. Patients often dont like to follow up at home with lifestyle changes and excerise/stretching programs. So muscles get tight again, rinse and repeat. Hope this adds a little insight.

Thank you! It does

 

[Dkingbd]

Specific to your school, or DO schools in general?

While I became personally disillusioned with OMM I can still respect it to an extent. I would honestly enjoy reading/participating in a healthy debate over the parts of OMM that need to be thrown out or at least updated, as well as the AOA hardliners and the concerning lack of empirical data on certain practices. For what it's worth I am well aware of other areas in allopathic medicine that are also antiquated.

More specifically, I was frustrated with my school's hardline obsession with image over student health or sanity. I also feel that rapid expansion at certain osteopathic schools has resulted in a poorer quality of education and my particular school had no recourse whatsoever even when faculty taught blatantly wrong and easily disproved information (with multiple textbooks/academic articles). Changing to a considerably older more established and prestigious allopathic school I was blown away by the difference in instructional quality. I wish I could articulate the level of disparity in curriculum that I found but I honestly am not sure if it would even be believable and I also understand that on a forum like SDN, I likely come across more than anything as a disgruntled student who simply had a bad personal experience.

Also, I'd like to apologize for the incredibly slow response. I would love to contribute more but it's November and the semester is very much in full swing. I would like to contribute in an honest, no-BS, and helpful way though.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

While I became personally disillusioned with OMM I can still respect it to an extent. I would honestly enjoy reading/participating in a healthy debate over the parts of OMM that need to be thrown out or at least updated, as well as the AOA hardliners and the concerning lack of empirical data on certain practices. For what it's worth I am well aware of other areas in allopathic medicine that are also antiquated.

More specifically, I was frustrated with my school's hardline obsession with image over student health or sanity. I also feel that rapid expansion at certain osteopathic schools has resulted in a poorer quality of education and my particular school had no recourse whatsoever even when faculty taught blatantly wrong and easily disproved information (with multiple textbooks/academic articles). Changing to a considerably older more established and prestigious allopathic school I was blown away by the difference in instructional quality. I wish I could articulate the level of disparity in curriculum that I found but I honestly am not sure if it would even be believable and I also understand that on a forum like SDN, I likely come across more than anything as a disgruntled student who simply had a bad personal experience.

Also, I'd like to apologize for the incredibly slow response. I would love to contribute more but it's November and the semester is very much in full swing. I would like to contribute in an honest, no-BS, and helpful way though.

You have said twice the school was more concerned about its image than educating students. Are you able to elaborate on this? As far as educational differences, this has not been my experience. I attended an established DO school. Anatomy is anatomy, micro is micro, Biochem is biochem, etc. I'm not sure how there can be much difference between schools during pre clinical. PhDs teach most of these courses. My wife attended a major university. As a resident at a university program, I rotated at 2 other outside universities, and was faculty at another MD university. Outside of OMM, my wife and i saw no difference in education. As a resident, i felt well prepared. I understand our experiences are quite different and would like to understand more about yours. Are you able to clarify some of your issues with your former school? Pre meds will read your comments and might be misguided into thinking this is a common occurrence . Glad you have found a better fit. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You have said twice the school was more concerned about its image than educating students. Are you able to elaborate on this? As far as educational differences, this has not been my experience. I attended an established DO school. Anatomy is anatomy, micro is micro, Biochem is biochem, etc. I'm not sure how there can be much difference between schools during pre clinical. PhDs teach most of these courses. My wife attended a major university. As a resident at a university program, I rotated at 2 other outside universities, and was faculty at another MD university. Outside of OMM, my wife and i saw no difference in education. As a resident, i felt well prepared. I understand our experiences are quite different and would like to understand more about yours. Are you able to clarify some of your issues with your former school? Pre meds will read your comments and might be misguided into thinking this is a common occurrence . Glad you have found a better fit. Good luck and best wishes!

I agree with this.
Also, I go to what one would consider a new school, and I can tell you I do not see any differences in the basic science education with MD students and friends that I have talked to. Also, I've noticed at my school we cover more in terms of clinical skills (history taking, SOAP note, Pt presentation, physical exams, ect...) during our pre-clinical years compared to my MD counterparts as well. The only difference I've seen between MD and DO so far is OMM, and maybe, at some specific new schools, subpar clinical rotations. Although, with my school being new without a graduating class yet, I'm very impressed with the quality of clinical rotation sites they have been able to secure (most are at the surrounding teaching hospitals with some shared with the local MD schools), so I'm really not worried about my clinical years. Also, we have good opportunity for research with a well equipped research lab, one professor even got an NIH grant, plus the school even provides stipends to students doing summer research. Not all new schools are created equal I would say. Federal loans was available from the start, and we have a good state/community support.

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[DO2015CA]

Ehhh, I kind of regret it & I kinda don't. DO just made sense to me since I'm not aiming for anything competitive and I don't know if it was worth trying to improve my mcat & delaying life just to have MD behind my name. OMM is def a complete waste of time and it's annoying as hell when there's an omm exam you have to cram for when you have a big ass exam covering 30+ chapters of real science the next week. I didn't really realize the complaint from past students until I started actually going through it because it seems like every hour of your day is important. I also feel inferior to MD students, this will def change once I'm out of here and into the real world, but as of right now I'm def jelly of their ability to just stream lecture from home while my school is anal as hell about attending class just so we stroke the professor's ego

Feeling inferior is the biggest waste of time. If it is due to mandatory attendance then that's not an MD/DO thing because both degrees have schools that do both. If feeling inferior is due to something else then id figure out what that was and come to peace with it. The most miserable self hating DO classmates I had was due to inferiority complexes. Everything that went wrong they blamed it on being at a DO school. They also went on and on about how they won't match their desired specialty because they are DOs. The sad part is they did match those specialties but continued to have this inferior complex. Complaining about if they were an MD they could've matched at such and such instead. What will make them happy? who knows but I couldn't imagine taking that kinda chip on my shoulder for the rest of my career.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I also feel inferior to MD students, this will def change once I'm out of here and into the real world,

I wouldn’t just assume you will magically feel different when you get out in the real world. You need to figure out why you feel inferior and address it. I’m currently on a rotation where there are residents and students from the local MD school as well as our residents and students and I can tell you 100% that we are the exact same. The MD students aren’t superior in any way.

Feeling inferior is the biggest waste of time. If it is due to mandatory attendance then that's not an MD/DO thing because both degrees have schools that do both. If feeling inferior is due to something else then id figure out what that was and come to peace with it. The most miserable self hating DO classmates I had was due to inferiority complexes. Everything that went wrong they blamed it on being at a DO school. They also went on and on about how they won't match their desired specialty because they are DOs. The sad part is they did match those specialties but continued to have this inferior complex. Complaining about if they were an MD they could've matched at such and such instead. What will make them happy? who knows but I couldn't imagine taking that kinda chip on my shoulder for the rest of my career.

This. It’s not worth it to have that kind of chip.

 

[Fat_Albert]

Feeling inferior is the biggest waste of time. If it is due to mandatory attendance then that's not an MD/DO thing because both degrees have schools that do both. If feeling inferior is due to something else then id figure out what that was and come to peace with it. The most miserable self hating DO classmates I had was due to inferiority complexes. Everything that went wrong they blamed it on being at a DO school. They also went on and on about how they won't match their desired specialty because they are DOs. The sad part is they did match those specialties but continued to have this inferior complex. Complaining about if they were an MD they could've matched at such and such instead. What will make them happy? who knows but I couldn't imagine taking that kinda chip on my shoulder for the rest of my career.

Nah inferior cause there’s like 5 schools opening up every yr accepting subpar stats and it makes DO feel like the new caribbean. Also it’s annoying as hell when my school tries to talk crap about MDs & how we’re superior than them because we have additional training in omm....Besides that I’m not stressing about it

 

[DO2015CA]

Nah inferior cause there’s like 5 schools opening up every yr accepting subpar stats and it makes DO feel like the new caribbean. Also it’s annoying as hell when my school tries to talk crap about MDs & how we’re superior than them because we have additional training in omm....Besides that I’m not stressing about it

there are also tons of MD schools opening. Everyone talks about accepting subpar students. It literally has no bearing on you. Subpar students will not pass boards, not match, and not become practicing physicians. People act like subpar mcat doesn’t mean they can become a good physician. It wasn’t too many years before my entry to medical school that a 26-27 was the MD admission stat and 24 was DO. They all became good physicians. A lot of DO students surpass those stats and yet are subpar. All this means is there is score creep. Just because you didn’t score a 510 doesn’t mean you are subpar. All Scores are meant for you is so you are be able to pass boards. It’s not the accepted students that are subpar. It’s the clinical training of the new schools opening, not the students. And if you don’t go to these schools then you have no reason to feel inferior. Heck these students have no reason to feel inferior as long as they do all their away rotations 4th year to catch up prior to starting internship

... the only ones that should feel inferior is these schools offering abysmal opportunities.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I do but specifically because I want to practice internationally. Technically we have those rights on paper but reality is often different.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

I do but specifically because I want to practice internationally. Technically we have those rights on paper but reality is often different.


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Depending on what you mean by "practice internationally" this isn't a DO problem. MD's can't just move to other countries and practice medicine either. Going with organizations like DWB isn't going to be hampered by the DO either..

 

[Doc_Ock]

Depending on what you mean by "practice internationally" this isn't a DO problem. MD's can't just move to other countries and practice medicine either. Going with organizations like DWB isn't going to be hampered by the DO either..

Think developing countries. Yes places like Korea aren’t exactly hurting for docs but other places are, but they still want to see the letters ‘MD.’


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[DrStephenStrange]

Think developing countries. Yes places like Korea aren’t exactly hurting for docs but other places are, but they still want to see the letters ‘MD.’


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Yes, some countries limit DOs, but if you go work under an organization like Doctors without borders for example you can usually bypass those limitations.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Yes, some countries limit DOs, but if you go work under an organization like Doctors without borders for example you can usually bypass those limitations.

Can you specify “I want to work in ‘x country’ only” or do you have to go where they send you?


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[AnatomyGrey12]

Can you specify “I want to work in ‘x country’ only” or do you have to go where they send you?


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You'll have to look more into the organizations specifically. But I know 100% if you are with that kind of organization it doesn't matter what their laws are and the vast majority of the time you can work there regardless.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Can you specify “I want to work in ‘x country’ only” or do you have to go where they send you?


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Basically international agencies and/or NGOs are the ones that decide the legal rights and scope of practice of their own physicians. So if you're working for one and they say you're a physician, YOU ARE A PHYSICIAN PERIOD.

Also the list of countries for which we have unlimited scope of practice has been growing. From 51 last time I've checked to ~75 now.
See the list here:

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: NGOs is a nonprofit organization that operates independently of any government, typically one whose purpose is to address a social or political issue.

 

[hallowmann]

Think developing countries. Yes places like Korea aren’t exactly hurting for docs but other places are, but they still want to see the letters ‘MD.’


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I don't think you have completely researched this. Have you contacted the medical board of the country you're interested in working at regarding your degree? As pointed out above, many countries recognize the US DO degree as a medical degree, but in order to be licensed for independent practice, you need to jump through all the same hoops you'd have to jump through as a non-citizen, US-trained physician, which honestly for many are not worth the effort. Training in ACGME accredited programs (and in turn the merger) has actually resulted in more countries recognizing the US DO degree as equivalent to MD.

As far as working with aide organizations, if you are licensed in your country of origin, you are typically permitted to work within any aide trips/missions, but won't have independent practice rights.

Generally with working with DWB/MSF you don't necessarily choose where you go, but you can potentially join specific missions if there is a crisis. They aren't the only organization that does these trips though.

Basically international agencies and/or NGOs are the ones that decide the legal rights and scope of practice of their own physicians. So if you're working for one and they say you're a physician, YOU ARE A PHYSICIAN PERIOD.

Also the list of countries for which we have unlimited scope of practice has been growing. From 51 last time I've checked to ~75 now.
See the list here:

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: NGOs is a nonprofit organization that operates independently of any government, typically one whose purpose is to address a social or political issue.

Crazy, looks like the AMCOA recognition of the US DO degree last year opened up a ton of African countries to DOs.

 

[deleted831695]

My major regret is not applying early. I applied very late to MD and decently late to DO. I got into every DO I applied to (and I only applied to the established schools) and an out of state MD with very expensive tuition. However, for concurrent personal reasons at the time, I wanted to stay close distance to family so I chose MSU. Perhaps if I applied earlier I'd have had a much better shot at Wayne (my state public MD and top choice), but I got into one of my top 3 choices in the end.

I've shared all my thoughts about MSU in a recent post in the current school application thread. Plenty of things I liked. And yes, there are things I don't like as well, especially with regards to how a personal issue was dealt, and I can find reasons to complain and nitpick. Ultimately though, I'm so far happy. My classmates are insanely intelligent. They pick up things so quickly and work extremely hard. I get constantly humbled in their company, and never have I felt that I was too smart to belong here.

People tell me I go to (one of) the best DO schools, a B10 university medical school with an extensive in-state hospital partnership and residencies. When I think of it that way - that's something to be proud of. I'll be doing my clinicals at a tertiary teaching hospital with residencies, and one of my upperclassman tells me it's been great there for him. My school is expensive for a state school (~43k/yr) which is frustrating, but it's cheaper than many of the other private MD and especially DO schools that don't have our GME.

Unlike some of the new DO schools, mine is actually fulfilling a real state mission with 70-80% grads matching residency in Michigan, and many living as attendings here afterwards. Michigan is one of the most DO-friendly states, and I would love to practice anywhere in (southeast) Michigan.

I've made a few lifelong friends here, as well as many colleagues that I hope to work alongside or refer patients to because I know they'll give them excellent care.

So nah, I don't regret it. Honestly you don't have time to regret. I am more anxious about the future - passing boards, graduating, matching, paying off my loans, finding a spouse, supporting my parents in retirement once I start working, staying healthy, etc.

Lastly, I loathe self-hating DOs - be proud of your degree, your class, and even if you hate OMM, the MSK parts can be actually useful. I also loathe MDs who went to low-tier programs with similar matriculation stats as mine and think they're vastly superior (I know of people personally who act this way). When I'm in residency, I won't give a **** where my colleagues trained - be it Caribbean, MSUCOM, or Harvard. Anybody who makes it to that point went through the ups and downs and stress and euphoria of medical school, and patients aren't going to pay attention to the 2 letters behind your name.

 

[Doc_Ock]

I don't think you have completely researched this. Have you contacted the medical board of the country you're interested in working at regarding your degree? As pointed out above, many countries recognize the US DO degree as a medical degree, but in order to be licensed for independent practice, you need to jump through all the same hoops you'd have to jump through as a non-citizen, US-trained physician, which honestly for many are not worth the effort. Training in ACGME accredited programs (and in turn the merger) has actually resulted in more countries recognizing the US DO degree as equivalent to MD.

As far as working with aide organizations, if you are licensed in your country of origin, you are typically permitted to work within any aide trips/missions, but won't have independent practice rights.

Generally with working with DWB/MSF you don't necessarily choose where you go, but you can potentially join specific missions if there is a crisis. They aren't the only organization that does these trips though.

As I said, there is what’s on paper and then there is reality as far as practicing goes. Yes, I’m aware of aide organizations but I’d rather just work there outright. I’m aware this is rather niche and specific but that’s just how I am.


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[hallowmann]

As I said, there is what’s on paper and then there is reality as far as practicing goes. Yes, I’m aware of aide organizations but I’d rather just work there outright. I’m aware this is rather niche and specific but that’s just how I am.

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Have you actually contacted the medical board?

International practice rights was a huge deciding factor for me before I went to DO school. After reading board actions, communications, and talking to some people who practice abroad, I chose that path, and even in my short time in school multiple boards recognized the degree.

 

[Doc_Ock]

Have you actually contacted the medical board?

First I’d need to learn the language lol. If you’re asking whether or not DO’s have rights there, yes they do.


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[hallowmann]

First I’d need to learn the language lol. If you’re asking whether or not DO’s have rights there, yes they do.


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So you're basically saying you regret going DO because you suspect it may prevent you from doing something that you haven't even begun preparing for, despite there being policies that demonstrate recognition of the DO degree? I guess I don't see what you're even saying.

 

[deleted831695]

We all missed out before sixth grade, but now we finally hear dem words:

 

[DarkHorizon]

Update on this thread, now 5 months into practice. In a fairly desirable area. My partners are well trained at top programs and are all MDs. In fact I’m the only DO surgeon On staff at both hospitals I cover (There May be another OB/Gyn). Have had no shortage of patients and am now arguably the busiest guy in my group.

No, I do not regret going DO route, if anything, it may have helped as my primary referral sources are bunch of DO PCPs in the area.

Also, in my 6 years of training and now 5 months into practice, and seeing thousands of patients, I have not once been asked by a patient what’s a DO. I do believe that there may have been patients who avoided me altogether after researching me online, although that number is likely very very small.

 

[Doc_Ock]

So you're basically saying you regret going DO because you suspect it may prevent you from doing something that you haven't even begun preparing for, despite there being policies that demonstrate recognition of the DO degree? I guess I don't see what you're even saying.

I don’t suspect, anti-DO bias is common outside North America due to “osteopath” meaning something completely different over there. Surely you’re aware of this? If not you’re simply ignorant.
You do know that just because DO’s are recognized on paper doesn’t mean companies will actually HIRE a DO right? Are you really so ignorant of how the world works?
You don’t know a thing about me so I’d love to know how you know I haven’t prepared, like oh idk maybe living there for several months? Try being a little less pompous.


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[hallowmann]

I don’t suspect, anti-DO bias is common outside North America due to “osteopath” meaning something completely different over there. Surely you’re aware of this? If not you’re simply ignorant.
You do know that just because DO’s are recognized on paper doesn’t mean companies will actually HIRE a DO right? Are you really so ignorant of how the world works?
You don’t know a thing about me so I’d love to know how you know I haven’t prepared, like oh idk maybe living there for several months? Try being a little less pompous.


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Dude, you haven't prepared, let's be honest. I've lived places for months too, that hasn't prepared me to work as a physician internationally in those places. Take a breath here. No need to get so testy.

In many countries, depending on the medical boards, your degree is replaced by whatever degree the country confers. Again, depending on the country, you're worried about the potential discrimination you'd face for employment. You can still go and work in those places. Hang a shingle provided you've got a license, which you've already said the medical board gives to DOs.

What you're really upset about is that in the hypothetical situation in which you actually prepare to move somewhere and get licensed, you might be discriminated against due to you degree when applying to work in certain hospitals. There, now at least I get what you're saying.

 

[goodtime]

I would be stoked to be a DO. It lines up very much so with my future practice interests and my personal philosophy to some extent. I am not sure if I would be able to implement OMM into my practice goals, but I think there are some times it could be used, but that is only a small part.

which part of the philosophy other than OMM?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don’t suspect, anti-DO bias is common outside North America due to “osteopath” meaning something completely different over there. Surely you’re aware of this? If not you’re simply ignorant.
You do know that just because DO’s are recognized on paper doesn’t mean companies will actually HIRE a DO right? Are you really so ignorant of how the world works?
You don’t know a thing about me so I’d love to know how you know I haven’t prepared, like oh idk maybe living there for several months? Try being a little less pompous.


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Lol bro, it’s clear you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about and haven’t actually looked into what you are complaining about.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Anyways, I'm not here to start a big argument. It's just what is literally spammed on these forums by a vocal minority of members on a constant basis seems to have some ulterior motive besides "protecting students" at times which I'm sure even others have picked up on. I appreciate any advice that was made to students that came out of a place of genuinity, which is great, but I question many others. It gives SDN a bad name and the hard working physicians and colleagues that come from those schools a bad name as well. A lot of the information spread here comes from a place of ignorance as none of these "bashers" have actually been through the carib process at a big 3 school, yet here they are posting the most about them. Speaking to an actual alumni is the best way to get information, which seems to be forgotten in these comments from people. It's gotten to the point where people think it's literally someone that works for the school when something positive is posted, which is absolutely terrible. Here's an example of a post from an SGU graduate I saw today on a recent forum which is more accurate. Anyways I'm going to try to get out of here as I prefer to stay back because SDN is a volatile place.

 

[DO2015CA]

yES

Explain

 

[alprazoslam]

Update on this thread, now 5 months into practice. In a fairly desirable area. My partners are well trained at top programs and are all MDs. In fact I’m the only DO surgeon On staff at both hospitals I cover (There May be another OB/Gyn). Have had no shortage of patients and am now arguably the busiest guy in my group.

No, I do not regret going DO route, if anything, it may have helped as my primary referral sources are bunch of DO PCPs in the area.

Also, in my 6 years of training and now 5 months into practice, and seeing thousands of patients, I have not once been asked by a patient what’s a DO. I do believe that there may have been patients who avoided me altogether after researching me online, although that number is likely very very small.

Probably dodged bullets on those patients anyway.

 

[alprazoslam]

Explain

I think this dudes a troll with all his weird swirly words

 

[Cornfed101]

I think this dudes a troll with all his weird swirly words

I feel like I contracted a computer virus reading them

 

[alprazoslam]

j̡̢̧̢̥͍̟̙̮̖̱̜̠͍̫͙̞͎̭̦̩̙̮͓̣̞̠̘̥ͬͭ͒ͮ̓͋͛̀ͣ͑͂́ͯ̍̐̆̓̉̓̈̏́ͭ̌ͯ̓̃͗͗ͨ̆ͦ͛ͨͥͭ̅̍̄͐̈́͂̒̔͑ͦͩ̌͊͆̒ͦ̅ͯ͆ͬͭ̀̎̈ͨͪ̋̔̓̃ͪ̊͆̓̈́̐̌͑ͤ̐̀ͨ̿̃̽̔̈ͦ̓̊̆ͪ̄͛̏͊̾͊ͦ̈ͮͭͩ̃ͪ̈́͆ͨ̇̃̃ͨ̒̅̀͛ͦͫ̽ͣ̄̀̚̚̕͜͜͝͞͡͠uͤ̒̅ͬ̐͒͑ͯ͐ͯͬ̄̃͗͂͒̓͐̔̈͗̈́̋ͫ͋̏̂̃ͨ͂ͥ̋̉ͫ̔̊ͩ̓ͤ͐̐ͯ̉́̒͒ͪ̔ͦ͗̇ͨ͂ͨ͗̂̄̍̃̽̋̔͑͆ͣ̍̀̏ͮ̃̆́̈́ͦ̆ͫ͆̊̐ͥ͌̂̃ͬ̄͂̓ͫ̉ͤ̋̆͊̈́ͭͣ́̀̾͒̂ͬ̽̏̒ͣ͌̾̅̏ͦ̑ͪ͊ͥ͊̒ͦ̐ͤͬͯͤ̉̇ͣ̓̏̎ͧ́ͨͮ̈̒̉̏̄ͣ͌́̾͆͑̔͗͋͆̚̚͟͏̴̵̡̨̛̀̀͘͟͜͢͡͝҉͠͝͏̶̵̸̡̡̧̢̡͇̣͇̥͍͙̲̬̮̖͉̫̣̗͈̮̺̹̦̰͖̥̘̹̲̟͔̯͎̖̼̼̜͖͎̰̞͙̰͍̻̯̮̣̗͙͔̳͚͍̤͕̟͉̩̤͚͙̲͇͈̖̟̖̬̘͈̯̳͕̟͍͓̯̲̫̩̰͎̙̱͕͍̻͙̙͇̀͘͘͠͡ͅͅͅͅͅs̷̵̢̧ͯ̓ͫͮ̉͐̈́̾̔̓̏ͦͩ̀̈̄̐̾ͫ͊͋̇̆̿̏͂̍̄͒ͯͤͩ͗̾͐͂̊́́͘͘͜͡͠҉̀͏͞͏̴̸̴̵̵̧̨̨̛̛͍͖͚̳̩̳̯̪͍͙͚̤͚̞̩̣͔̭͎̗̠̻͕͎̬͖͙̝͈̘̦͔̝̼̱̙͖̣͇͔̘͕͉̼̭͔̦̱̼̘̺̝̬̣͔́́̀̀͘͘̕͘̕͘̕͡͡t̵̟͔͓̥͔̝̳̪̟͓̣̝̰̳̮̟̮̫̙̟͇͉̲̜̭̤̤̯̮̭̩͓̤̥̻͖̱̜̄ͩͦ͛ͧͨ̾̃̍ͫ̈́̽ͪ͆̂̍̄ͧ̔͊͌ͭ̑̆́ͮ̂̃̓̎̀ͭͮ̇̎͛̈͋ͤ̓̈͆͐̋́̃̈́̋͌͑̔̄̈́͂̑ͯͣ̓ͤ͑͛͌̔̇̌̇ͩ͗́̂̈ͥ̑͂̂ͥ̿̾͌̆ͪ̽̾͌̿͋̑̚̚͜͡ ̋ͥ̎̐́̊ͥ͗ͦ̆̂ͪ͌͋͑̏̅͑̈ͫ̈̌̿̀̄̾̆ͤ̈́ͩ̏̆͐̎̀͛̓̎͛̅͑̄̓ͪͨ̀ͪ̍͋̐ͦ͛ͭͪ͋̎̅̃̏̅́̂ͤͧͧ̂̓ͨͮ̆ͭ̔̊ͧ̃̏̅̒́ͧ̎ͥͤͨ̐̇̀͑̓̌̌ͯͣ̐͂̾͂̊̐̿͐̾̂͐͗͑̋ͦͣ̾̄̂͗͑ͧ̓̽̾ͬ͒̎̚̚̚҉̕͝͏̴̛͠͏҉͢҉͇̜̙̩̮̩̟͇̥̼̻̭̜͕̭̖̫̟͉͓̰͕̻͓̜̠̺̫̘̙̥̫͇̝̩͇͉̬̦̯̬͓̥̯̯͕͎̭̣͎̱̘̺͓̯̻͕͕̹̺͙̹͖̲̹͇͎̱͚͕̗̦͔͉̞̭̥̟̗̳̹̜̠̫̱̖͙͙̼̪͔̼̟̟̞̖̬̤̬͉̥̻̞̯͇̟̝̖̝͈͙̬̠̗̼̻ͅͅͅs͑̔̊͋ͦ̏̿̅ͫͪ̒̈̂̌̐̄̒ͣͥͦͮ̃̊̿̎̿ͭͧͩ͛ͪ̓̐ͩ̊̐͑ͩ̈̋̏ͤͪ̐̓ͬ̍ͩͦ̓̎ͣ̑ͧ̔̀̏ͨͫͩͬ̉̑͂ͦ͆ͮ͂̅ͪ͐̌͆̈́̀̆̔ͨͯͩ̓̂ͮ̇͑ͨͥ̉̏͑͆͗ͯ̍̊ͬ̾̇̋̌̓̎̀ͯ̒ͣ̌͑͂͐͐̾͋ͪ̈ͪ̐̽͂͑ͬ̓͒ͪ̐̿̏̎ͩ͒̿̑̈̎̌͊̒ͩͯͤ̔͛ͭͪ̓̌̾ͪ̓̑̊̓̈͌ͦ͌̔ͣ̚̚̚҉͘҉̷̧̢́͡҉̸̧̛̕͏̀͟͢͟͠͏̴̷̨̛͟͢҉̙̱͍̗̠̞̮̬̬̞̺̥͇͉̯͎̰̙̳̱̬̫̗̲̥̼̠̱̫̞͕̞̖̤͍̲̰̱̥͉͈̦̙̰̖̖̩̤̞̝̼̟̠͎̪̲̼̙̫͈̠̮̖̪͚͈̖̞̦͕̗̞̭̙̲̟͔̜͖̜̜̟̘̳̦̰̬̜̞̹̳̬̯̩̥͍̰̱̱̭͕̯̯͎͎̱͓̻̻̬̣̘͚̦͕̬̥̫̼̣ͅͅͅͅa̸ͧ̋̈́̂̑͐ͪ̑̉̾͆̍́̌ͣ́̍̂ͦ̿̿ͥ̌̄̍͐̅͛ͩ͑̓ͤ͑͋̓͛ͫ͒͐̍͒͂̏̆͋̎̾̓̂̿ͪ̇ͣ̒̎́̐͊ͨͧͮͥ̋͌̏̑̐̀̇̃̽͋͗́͛̿ͭͫͦͩͥͮ͗ͥͫ͌͆̉̓ͨ̎̄͆̀̓͂̓ͧ̎͊̎́̎͑ͮ͆ͧ̽̓̃ͪͥ̆ͪ͌ͯ͛͊̉̌̊̽͐̓ͪͩͨͧ̑ͥͥ͊ͥ̋͒ͪ͑̂͑ͨ͑̐̓͑̄ͦ͗̏ͧ̚̚҉̵̛̕͟͡͏̶̷̵̷̶̧̡̧͖͎̰̜̘̯̞̭͕̹̙̭̠̲͈͎̣͚̭̦̻̺̺͚̼̣̻̘̥̖̰̩̯͙̟̹̖̫͎̪͖̬̣̺̼̬̝͍̗̥̫̪̻̞͔͍̰̺̼̙͚̺͍̲̘͈̱̳͕̗̞̘̗͎͔̳̤̼̤̪̠̙̘͖̟̺̩̹͕̟͔͈̘̞̥͍̱̼̤̱̻͈̳̳̼͓̺̟̦͙̠̩͕̰̟̪̥͙͓̫͖͇̻̦̤̙̟̻̭̝̜̱̬̭̻̠̳͈̹̭̫̣̮̫͓̙̱̻̹̤͖̟̭̜̀̕͢͠͠͡ͅͅͅͅy̵͌̒͋̂̿̽͆͊̔̅ͮ͆ͨ͑ͮ̏̋̆ͯ̏͒ͭ͆͢͡҉̷̶̵̸̧̢̢̨̡̛̛́̕͘̕͟͟͢͢҉̀͏̵̴҉̵̶̸̴̸̴̴̵̸̶̸̷̷̧̧̧̡̧̛̛̛̛́́̀́͘̕͘͢͢͢͜͜͜͞͡͞͞͝͠͝͡҉̻̟̗̟̖̩͉͖͎̼̫͙̺͙̰̰̼̜͉͔͎̦̠̖̣̟̤͎̳̠̫̭̯͙̯͉̱͎̥͓̭̳̭͚͕̭̜̻͉̮̗̗̣͇̙̫̱̼͕̜̟̫̜̥͙̭̲͎̙͓̯̲̩̹̰̜̙̲̲̥̥̺̲̞͍̹̝̱͓̥͉̯͚ͅͅͅḭ̵̸̵̷̶̵̸̷̴̸̷̸̵̧̨̡̢̨̡̨̧̨̛̙̲̱̥̯͖̭͕̟͕̯͕͕͍̙͓̟̮̟̥̻̦͍̥̠̞̜̻̯̻̻̮͉̩͇͚̞̱̳̮͍̬̳̹̲̗̗̬̠͙͙̬͈̠̣͉̫̙̹͚̺̣̜̤̘̳̤͖̞͉̝̱̹͕̖̱̱͕͎͈̱̯͈̲̟̱͖̭̥͙̻̭͎̫̙̲͖͉̟̲͓͇̩̦̘̋̋̎̃ͪ͌ͯ̂̓̏̀ͮ͊͗ͩ̽ͧͤͫ̍͗͗͑ͧͤ͑̐̓ͣͬͩ͌̋̑͐̅̀͒͑̐ͯͮ̋͗ͩ̇ͥ̊ͪ͗̅͆ͨͭ͂̑̆ͩ̄ͬ̍̉̐̽͗͆̑ͩ̿͆̊ͬͯ̎ͭ̌̎ͯ̈́̽ͪ͑͛ͦ̎ͬ́̊ͣ̔̾̇̐̿͋̀ͤͤ͛̋ͫͪ̐ͯ̿̂̎̎̉͛̃ͫͮ͐͆̑̿̃̈́̎̈͑ͦ͛̊̌̓̂ͣ̓̎͐̿͊̏̉ͥ̀́́̚̚̚͘̕͘͢͜͜͜͡͝ͅͅͅͅn̨͛̆ͤ͛͂̅͛ͫ̿͗̀̆̀͏̶̷̢̛̕͟͝͠͏̴̛͏̷̸̛̕͟͡͞͏̷͘̕҉̨̕͠͠҉̶̷̷̸̡̡̡͈͙̜̭͖̙͎̜̦͓̟͍̮͇̩̟͇̩̣͖͈̹̲͈͙̤̜̠͓̯̹̩̩̟͚͚̭͍̪̳̻̟͇̲̦̥̙̻͈̮͔̺͚̪̝̤̲̺͇̥̝̭̯͔̠̣͔̦͇̥̫̭͇̩̼̞̼͖̟̟͙̺̖͍̲̟͚̬̠͕̟̜̤̖̮̹͖̘͓̫̦̟͔̞̤̦̤̗̰̠̭͚͙̮̣͇̘̟̣͚̭̱̲͙͔͇͙͍͔̱͍̞̬͚̟̘͕̱͎̼͍̗̜̘̞̯̳͇̪͙̦̗̣̼̣̜̝̬̹́́͘͘͘͢͜͟͟͞͝͡͝ͅg̷̸̸̸̢̧̎̉̽͌͗̍͒ͬ̍͛̄ͧͨ͋ͥ͌̽̄̾̏̅̍ͧ̽ͬ̄̊̂̈͆ͬ̓̉͒͛̆̇̇́ͯͮ̓ͫ̈̾̇̃̓̔̌ͣ̉̀͘̕͡͠͡͏̴̡͜͢͠͝҉̨̢̛̛́͢͟͟͏̸̷̴̡̢̧̛̀̕͘͢͢͢͟͏̷̶̶̨̛̀́́̕͟͜͟͡͞͡͏̶̡͟͠͡͞҉̴̴̨̛͞͏̵̧͢͏҉̦̰͕̭͙̫̯͈̠̣̺̘͓̲̪̦̲̺̟̗̻͚̹͘ ̸̷̸̡̧̄̓̾̊̉ͯ̉̽͂ͪ͆͛ͯͭ̄̀̆ͧ̄͛ͬ̔͌̑ͮ̋ͧ͑̈́ͬ̊́ͬ̈ͯ̿̍ͣ͛ͤ̅ͭ͑̄̐̎ͨ̈́̽͑̌ͥ͒̋ͬ̊͑ͪ̅̓̅̉̌ͪ̍ͥ̍͛͑͒͌̆̌̍ͦͧͫ̊͋ͯ͛ͩ̎̈̃̀̎̈̇ͤͪ̄̊͋ͬ̍ͯ̋̂̓̆̊͛͋́̋́̇̿́̈͆͋ͤ͊͋ͥ̉͆̏͐ͪ̐ͥ̍ͥ̊̋̐̓ͬ̈ͯ̌ͨ̑̊͆̋̏ͦͤ̓̈͂̽̆̄̈́̃ͩ̌ͣ͒͛̓ͥ̏ͫ̚̚̕͝҉̨̛͘͠͏͎͍̜͙͕̖̹̬̥̲̲̘̼͉͕̳͇͚̘̲̬͓̹͙̭̹͇͓̣̮̖͕̥̠̖̥̯̹̤̥̱̜͔͈̝̬̥̲͍̜̤͇̤̩̯̪̩̹̝͙̙̻̫̘̹̳͉͍͙̗̣͙̰͇̳̼̘̟̫̲̙͓̲̞̗͕̥̭̰̭͇͚͎͔̬͎̣̝͕̘̲̣̬͇̤͇̝̩̟͚͓̦̗̬̺̦̝̫̘̖͓͎̹̝̜̱̞̞̼̪͚̱̘̥̺̣̣̙̮̠̲̳̘͎̲̕͘͟ͅͅͅͅͅr̶̛̎̆̐ͥ͆̐̍̌͊̈̐̉͋̓͗̏͋ͦͪ͌ͥͫͦͫͯ̓͗ͮ̄ͫ̓ͥ͗̑̀̈̃̓ͩ͋ͯ͗̌͒ͣ̾̐̇ͬ̏ͨ̍̎̓͊ͪ͗ͮͧ̓̑͂̉̅̅ͪͫ̔͗ͣ͐̔ͩ̋̊̔͋̀̚̚͘͠҉̨̡͙̖̱͖͙̙̯̯͖͔̯̹̬̥̪̪̭̣͖͎͖̺͚̞͎̙͎̜̯̱͉̰͍̬̣̻̞͚̟̼̬̣̠͇̙͉̣̥̤̞̱͙̳̣͕̠̥̙̹̭̀͟ͅͅȩ̴̡̨̡̨͉̩̭̘̝̜̖͎͔̱̖̹̜̝̘͇̪̥̱͎̟̖̰͍̣̜̝͇̩̘̺̪̹̼̖͖̖̹̫̩̪̪͔̖̟̘ͦ̋ͨ̐ͯ̎͐͒̐͂̓̇̎ͯ͗̆̆̈́ͬ͛͗̊ͧ̽͂̓̏̀ͥ̊̔͂̑̈́̏̑ͬ̇ͮ͐̔̀̓͂͆̀̀̕͜͢͟͜͞͡͠͝g̸̢̧̡̢̢͍̹͎̦̞̱͕̳͓͖̟͓̳̖͖͍̣̩͔̤̱͉̳̘̭͍̠̺̥͖̝̞͔̰͓̜̳̭̥͎̥̮̣̥̏̂ͥ̌̃ͨ̈́̃̆͆ͨ͗ͤ͌͌ͦ͒̽̉͂̅͗͗ͬ̆̋ͨ̎ͪͦ́͘̕͠͞ͅr̸̸̵̢̡̛̛̍̋ͣ̾͆ͣ͌ͭ́͐̋ͤͫ̄̅ͤ̋̉̏̿̋̽̇̀́̀͘͢͞͞͏̶̵̵̸̸̴̢̨̨̨̛́̕̕͢͟͢͟͟͠͏̶̕҉̶̵̸̸̷̨̀́͟͜҉̸̵̡̢̧̛̛̀͜͟͜͟͡͝҉̸̷̨̧̛̛́͢͞͠͠҉̨̡͇͙̤͙̖̜̤̪͓̝̘̫͎͉̣ë̵̛̂͆ͤ̆̋̅̑̈́ͣ̊͂͆̑̿̽̐̽̾ͫ̃ͯ̽ͧ͊͐ͮ͂̿͘҉̶̶̶̵̧̢̨̡̢̀͘͟͟͟͜͠͠͝͞͏̶̵̢̢̧́͘͟͏̶̷̴̶̸̢̢̧̢̛̛̠̝̝̺͚̺̬͔̭̙̲̫̯͙̰̹̪̠̙̣̹̣̼̭̥̩̳̦̬͎̤̟͖͍̞͕͎̘͉̯̱̫͙̝̟̝͚͕̙̳͍̼̦̹͙̙̪̗̗̬͕̣̱̙̖͖̱͈̖̬͚̘͕̙̩͓̠̗̮͖͖̠͈̻͍̖̝̳̲̟̗̗̦̩̯̰̖̞̫͉̫̫͕̘̤̱̩͈̦̯͖̠͇̘̖̪̯̠̯̩̭̝͓̜̼̲̰̹̠̘̯͔̰̠͔͍̹͖̟̱̗͇͍̰̀̕̕͢͟͞͡͝ͅͅͅẗ̴̑̓̂̋ͮ̉̌ͣͯ̎ͥ͒̊́ͧ͒ͫ̈́̋̒͛ͧ̒̑̈̿ͪ̇ͫͪ̅͆̽͊̍ͭ̾͛͊͐ͣ̓ͫ̾ͤ̃́͊ͪͧ̾̅͂̓͗̔͗̃̔̌̈̂͐̾͑ͥ͒̄͆͌̈́ͤ̍̽͒́ͪͥͨ̔̇̆̇͌̃͐ͬ̂̽ͭ͆ͥͦ̊͌̓ͩ́̊̅̍ͧ̂̑ͦ̉ͮ̉͗͐͐̓̓̇̎ͪ̊̉̑͌̈̂͌̅̉̀̓̅̃̏̎̋̏ͮͨ̾̇͂ͥ̑͑ͬ̋̂̄͌ͯ̾̊̒̾ͪ͛͊̽͑̀̚̚̚͘͘͝͠҉̸̷̸̵̢̡̧̡͘̕͘͜͝͝͞͏̵̢̡́͘͘͢͟҉̷̸̶̵̨̧̞̲̹̣̭̱̮͎͓̣̪̺̘̭͈̭̘̱͍̠͉͕̹̮̪͔̫͚̮̝̟͇̪̤͔͈̭͙̤̯͔͖̫̫̼͉̪̬͘̕̕͜͞ ̸ͤ̌ͭ̐́̇̽̍ͨͭ̈́̆ͩ̏̾ͭ̿͐͊͛ͬͨͤͬ͌̑̊̈́̈́͆̂̒́ͨ̄͑ͪ̔̊̋͌ͤ̀̊̉͌̐ͫ̓͂͆ͤ̀̈́͑̓ͨͦ̋͆ͫ̒̽͗͌̋ͬ̅̓ͪͭ̎̍̄̏ͨͮ̍ͩ̏ͭ́̾̔ͪ͋͘҉̨̧̧̢̀͘͏̨̡̕͟͞͏̸̵̷̨̛͎͙̮͓̳̠͕̝̞͇͍̬͔̙̹̼̞̳̭̥͍̜̝̦̝͎͎͇͉͘͟͡͠D̄ͬ̌̄̂̎̈͑͗ͬ̓ͪͬ̄͒̃̈́̎͆͌̓̌͆͑͑ͫ̅̄͛̿ͤ̏̿͆ͮ̓ͬ̇̔̃́͆̋̄̾ͪͧ̏͆͑ͮ͐̿͑̄͐̀́ͫ͊́̉̽ͣ̽̀̋ͩͦ̓ͨ̍̂͋̈̿͛̉̉̾̉͌ͣ͊͂̑͊̉ͪ̅͗̅̄ͦ̑ͦͮͥ̚҉̶̵̵̢̛̀́́͟͟͟͠͞͞҉̸̴̶̶̶̷̴̴̵̸̡̧̧̢̣̜̖͙̝͔̖̬̰̼͖̘̝̬̥͚͙̝͈̻͙̣̜̫̯͓̹̜̘͇̭̻̼͚̦̭̠͚̻͎̖͔̟̠̝͔̖̮̹̥̳̫̜̲̼̹͎̼̰͇̳̹̲̯̘̘̺̮͕̤̮͖̪̱̬̙̘̟̯̜̞̤͓̩̩̙̥̙̙̻̩͇͓̺̩͇̯͎̞̯͈̫͓͔͇̞̹̙̗̮͉̣̩̞̯̼̙̠̟͇̥̙͎̫̲̭͕̗̙͉̲͖̤̗̖̦̖͘͘̕͢͜͟͟͜͟͞͠͡͠͡͞͡͡ͅǪ̴̶͛̿͆ͦͪ̓͐͌̇̀͟͞͡҉̷͍͎͓̟͈̼̼̺̭̣͖̪̘̳͔͎͉͚͍͉͖̝͓̙̩͇̳̼̮͚̥̫͈͎̝̩̠̯̤̼̞͇͔̗̳̼̹͈̙̪͍͇͍͈̬̝͓̖̩̱̼̜͕̹͙̣̼̣͖̻͉̼̭̼͖̼̹̫̳̯͈̠̼͔̲̙̹̬̫͉͉͇̮̗̻̙̤̟̻͚̩͎͔̫̣̹̮̥͙͖̜̝̣̜̹͇̠̻͔̥͙̹͇

Did you take the red pill neo

 

[Xe13phys]

Resounding conclusion is NO. Those that do, regret going in to medicine in the first place

 

[enchantments]

Resounding conclusion is NO. Those that do, regret going in to medicine in the first place

lol today’s Step1 news changes things.