Reasons why I should go back to US

[schmartdoc]

I have been having this funny thought in my mind. I am a US citizen and a second year MBBS student in India. When I came here I had to go through many hardships such as relatives' problems, hostel, and not finding stomach friendly food. Now my parents bought a house for me and I have a maid who does cooking, cleaning, and washing clothes and I feel very comfortable and at home living in India. At one point I think why go back to US if I can find comfortable life right here in India. My parents want me to finish MBBS, take USMLE and CSA and find a residency in US. Please help me in my decision making. At one point I think that I should go back because I used to dream about going back but at another point I think that I will have to work very hard if I go back to US. Please tell me all the good points about going back to US.

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[$!n!$+er]

You'll have to work hard as well here in India if you want to succeed here. Things is that the struggle here becomes no struggle at all if you have the "means". I don't know how things work out there in US, but just about everyone in my erstwhile class would jump at an opportunity to get into US. And that should tell you something.

 

[knockoutMice]

If you are looking for material comforts, then India is the place to be. You can afford a chauffeur, maids, cooks... everything with a very modest amount of income.

However if you really want to make something out of your career, then the case gets complicated.
If you want to be in private practice - get into the best post grad institutes here, it will require a huge amount of effort (i guess u know the pg exams here are insane).
But if its academics that you want to be in, then I think you should go back to US.

 

[relapse]

If you are looking for material comforts, then India is the place to be. You can afford a chauffeur, maids, cooks... everything with a very modest amount of income.

However if you really want to make something out of your career, then the case gets complicated.
If you want to be in private practice - get into the best post grad institutes here, it will require a huge amount of effort (i guess u know the pg exams here are insane).
But if its academics that you want to be in, then I think you should go back to US.

Everything has its price. The money you can so called "afford" comes with a price with it. India has over 500 million people that are homeless.

Homeless: living under 100 rupees a day ($2)

Just because you take advantage of the fact that corruption exists, (and yes, hiring a maid, chauffeur, and cook are self-corrupting) doesn't mean its right. Always do what is right.

What is right: that which does not cause physical or mental anguish towards another person

Your inability to work hard is outwardly manifested through many complexes as an IMG.

As an IMG myself, you have to cope with these difficulties and "man up."

Due to the fact that you have a pre-existing identity crisis which caused you to go to india giving you an insecurity complex. That complex then lead you to gain this inferiority complex causing you allow your environment take control of every thought and action.

India has a lot of potential, don't get me wrong. The fact of the matter is, millions of people are being taken advantage of and nobody realises this. You have been given this golden opportunity and don't acknowledge this fact. Its almost as if your blind. Open your eyes, look around you, gain comfort in the fact that everything is taken care for you and that you don't have to worry like those people.

"One man with one eye will always be king in the city of blinds."

 

[knockoutMice]

Everything has its price. The money you can so called "afford" comes with a price with it. India has over 500 million people that are homeless.

Homeless: living under 100 rupees a day ($2)

Just because you take advantage of the fact that corruption exists, (and yes, hiring a maid, chauffeur, and cook are self-corrupting) doesn't mean its right. Always do what is right.

What is right: that which does not cause physical or mental anguish towards another person

Your inability to work hard is outwardly manifested through many complexes as an IMG.

As an IMG myself, you have to cope with these difficulties and "man up."

Due to the fact that you have a pre-existing identity crisis which caused you to go to india giving you an insecurity complex. That complex then lead you to gain this inferiority complex causing you allow your environment take control of every thought and action.

India has a lot of potential, don't get me wrong. The fact of the matter is, millions of people are being taken advantage of and nobody realises this. You have been given this golden opportunity and don't acknowledge this fact. Its almost as if your blind. Open your eyes, look around you, gain comfort in the fact that everything is taken care for you and that you don't have to worry like those people.

"One man with one eye will always be king in the city of blinds."

Are those directed at me?
Are you like e-stalking me or something?
Why? Just because I don't share your opinions?
Relax dude.... you sound like a friggin commie

FYI I'm not an IMG, I was born n brought up here and those things that you stated, I understand them pretty well.

GAWD! After I realised you were e-stalking me I checked out your other posts... I mean seriously??? You posted those stuff? :O

You know what...... you are not worth my time.

 

[dggopal]

Relapse dude... you seem a little confused... all he is asking is whether he should go back or stay here and the pros and cons of the said arguement... there is no need or truth in you bringing up insecurity and inferiority... LOL... seems like you had to go through all of these probs and you are projecting...

Also how is it WRONG to hire a maid or a cook?? I pay my maid and cook for services they provide... I don't understand your arguement, but more importantly how do you even put that in a reply to the original poster's question? Nevertheless now that you have mentioned it how is it self corrupting my friend? It's not like im taking advantage of my maid or cook... I'm paying them. Whats the problem here?

 

[relapse]

Be grateful for what you have for one day it might be gone.

I'm not saying its self corrupting anybody. He's an IMG which obviously means he should go back home. I thought that was obvious in my last post.

My point is that most IMG's have been riding on mommy and daddy's money train for too long. They gonna be gone one day and then what? Money will go on trees?

"Man up", work hard, play harder. Study like hell for boards, knock it out of the park, then go home land a spot in residency, and finish off at home.

 

[relapse]

Relapse dude... you seem a little confused... all he is asking is whether he should go back or stay here and the pros and cons of the said arguement... there is no need or truth in you bringing up insecurity and inferiority... LOL... seems like you had to go through all of these probs and you are projecting...

Also how is it WRONG to hire a maid or a cook?? I pay my maid and cook for services they provide... I don't understand your arguement, but more importantly how do you even put that in a reply to the original poster's question? Nevertheless now that you have mentioned it how is it self corrupting my friend? It's not like im taking advantage of my maid or cook... I'm paying them. Whats the problem here?

its called transference

 

[dggopal]

Ahhh... OK so now that I think I understand your argument... you are saying he should work hard and persevere instead of looking for the easy way out?

What if he truly likes India and wishes to stay here? I mean I personally wouldn't want to, but maybe he does. Maybe his choice isn't solely based on the competition and hard work required to get back into the states, although it may be a factor?

Hey if the issue is with the amount of hard work he would have to put in and in the end laziness, I'm with you... "man up" and get the job done and get home where you want to go...

BUT

if he has come to like living here and feels great here.... then whats the point of working so hard to go somewhere he doesn't need to.... I mean if he is happy here and the reason for staying here IS that he is happy here, and NOT that its too hard to go home, then hey why go through all that work?

I mean I can understand your post as the original post states that its really hard to go home to America... but I'm guessing there is more to his choice than just the difficulty of getting back... I mean you have to be comfortable and happy to decide or even begin to decide to live in a place permanently right?

 

[relapse]

Ahhh... OK so now that I think I understand your argument... you are saying he should work hard and persevere instead of looking for the easy way out?

What if he truly likes India and wishes to stay here? I mean I personally wouldn't want to, but maybe he does. Maybe his choice isn't solely based on the competition and hard work required to get back into the states, although it may be a factor?

Hey if the issue is with the amount of hard work he would have to put in and in the end laziness, I'm with you... "man up" and get the job done and get home where you want to go...

BUT

if he has come to like living here and feels great here.... then whats the point of working so hard to go somewhere he doesn't need to.... I mean if he is happy here and the reason for staying here IS that he is happy here, and NOT that its too hard to go home, then hey why go through all that work?

I mean I can understand your post as the original post states that its really hard to go home to America... but I'm guessing there is more to his choice than just the difficulty of getting back... I mean you have to be comfortable and happy to decide or even begin to decide to live in a place permanently right?

Look, no offense, and as an IMG (NRI) from the states, anyone that says they "like" India is talking a bunch of horsesh**.

They haven't opened their eyes and accepted the fact that over 600+ MILLION people are living on less than $1.25 / day. (world bank)

The only conclusion I can conjure up is that Indians hate their country.

That is why all of the successful indians left and went to the U.S. and abroad to pursue their dream.

Don't get me wrong, I love India, but what theyre doing to their country is incomprehensible.

So tell your friend to "man up." He can lie to another person, but the worse crime is lying to yourself. He hates India and he knows it. His transference is whats blocking him from publicly disclosing his true feelings.

Remember some short facts about India:

1) there is no such thing as lie, only different version of the truth

2) Bribery? who said anything about bribery, its a different version of philanthropy

3) India: the only country in the world where people lie with honesty

 

[OneoftheGuptas]

Relapse, just because you seem to have one opinion about India, it's not necessary that other people share your opinion. I'm not understanding why you seem so angry or irritated in all your posts.

Yes, most of India lives below the poverty line. I don't understand what that has to do with peoples' decisions to stay here or not. How can you assume that Indians hate their country, just because they left to pursue professional goals? There are loads of expats in India, working in International companies. You think they came here because they hated living where they were? That's an extremely ridiculous conclusion, I feel.

Just because he is an American, he is not obligated in any way to go back to the States. India is an amazing country to live in, when you have the money to afford all luxuries. Money and power get you far here.

He will have to work hard no matter where he is, though his original post seemed to imply that he thought otherwise. Getting a PG seat in India is amazingly tough, and he'll realize soon enough that only hard work and discipline will get him what he wants in life.

Why does it bother you so much that he wants to stay here? If he thinks it's an easy road in India, he will learn soon enough that he has to put in effort (perhaps more than in the States) to survive here. If he is staying here because he likes that he can have a nice place to stay, with a cook and maid, all the power to him. As long as he realizes that the money will ultimately come from his own wallet rather than his parents', and he will be both earning and spending in rupees (it's obviously nicer to earn in US dollars and spend in rupees), it's all good.

India has an amazing way of teaching you your lesson, and he'll figure out soon enough what he needs to do to get the luxuries he desires.

 

[relapse]

Relapse, just because you seem to have one opinion about India, it's not necessary that other people share your opinion. I'm not understanding why you seem so angry or irritated in all your posts.

Yes, most of India lives below the poverty line. I don't understand what that has to do with peoples' decisions to stay here or not. How can you assume that Indians hate their country, just because they left to pursue professional goals? There are loads of expats in India, working in International companies. You think they came here because they hated living where they were? That's an extremely ridiculous conclusion, I feel.

Just because he is an American, he is not obligated in any way to go back to the States. India is an amazing country to live in, when you have the money to afford all luxuries. Money and power get you far here.

He will have to work hard no matter where he is, though his original post seemed to imply that he thought otherwise. Getting a PG seat in India is amazingly tough, and he'll realize soon enough that only hard work and discipline will get him what he wants in life.

Why does it bother you so much that he wants to stay here? If he thinks it's an easy road in India, he will learn soon enough that he has to put in effort (perhaps more than in the States) to survive here. If he is staying here because he likes that he can have a nice place to stay, with a cook and maid, all the power to him. As long as he realizes that the money will ultimately come from his own wallet rather than his parents', and he will be both earning and spending in rupees (it's obviously nicer to earn in US dollars and spend in rupees), it's all good.

India has an amazing way of teaching you your lesson, and he'll figure out soon enough what he needs to do to get the luxuries he desires.

Haha, I really hope your not Indian because there were some statements, scratch that, your entire post, which was outright pure sophistry.

Getting a PG seat in India is amazingly tough, and he'll realize soon enough that only hard work and discipline will get him what he wants in life.

Are you kidding me? If you are going to do your PG in a private college, its a matter of how much $ you're willing to dish out based on which specialty.

EVERY private colleges has a spreadsheet of how much to charge; I think the current rates are:

Radiology -- 1.5 crore
Medicine -- 70 lakhs
ENT, Surgery, and other specialties--60 lakhs
and so on...

I know government colleges that do the same. Corruption is on all levels throughout India and your failure to grasp it is like telling a deaf man to grasp a blind man's speech.

You talk about expats living in India? Haha, I LIVE next to expats and I talk to them on a regular basis. Germans, Polish, Russian -- nana. they all agree that they made a bad decision. They go out every weekend to get f***ed up so that they don't have to deal with the misery of the poverty that surrounds their every movement.

One guy was talkin to me about the recent U.N. forum in which India had the balls to send a little kid to the podium. Haha--(india, why dont' you fix your child labour problem first before trying to pull of that sh**.
There is no such thing as a lie in india. Only different version of the truth.

The majority (in my estimate >800+MILLION people homeless,jobless), voice their opinions and know they are being heard but at the same time nobody listens.

Theres a big CM (community medicine) or in the olden days Social and preventive medicine drive thats going on recently here in India. While all this is going on, millions of people are taking sh**s on the road, animals are roaming freely on the major streets of the capital, and people die every day because of starvation.

Get real son.

 

[relapse]

In essence, if your an IMG, that last post was a no brainer about your decision of whether or not to stay in India.

Go home.

Clean Air, Unless you Like breathing carbon monoxide
No people sh**ting in the middle of the road
Zoo's are not present everywhere you travel, they charge for it back home
Children go to school and aren't employed at age 4
Good food and alcohol
Non-oppressed girls
Lack of Gossip culture
Preservation of your identity so you don't continue your crisis
Independence
Reliability
Productivity
not as corrupt.

 

[dggopal]

LOL... you say its easy as paying money to get a pg seat in india... It absolutely is.... but last time I checked money doesn't grow on trees... so I think the point that was trying to be made... keeping in mind that the avg joe doesn't have a crore sitting around to burn... is that it will be HARD getting a PG in India... maybe not directly... but either you face difficulty directly trying to compete... or you face it indirectly by trying to pony up a crore or more since mommy and daddy don't have that much cash lying around.... anyways thats not the point of my post...

the point is that if you do have money, India can be mighty nice.
Lets take all your plus points for goin home and talk about them...

1) clean air
- Haha... all depends on where you live in india... have you ever been to Shimla... the air is fricken fresh dude... and besides even if you don't live in the freshest place... you have cash...you get air purifiers in ur house... you got a nice ride so you don't need to smell the outside air... air filter takes care of the rest... crank up the ac and chill... and seeing that you are rich... where ever you are going is gonna smell nice too ( restaraunt, 5 star hotel... clubs... movies... ) if you need some **** from somewhere you dont want to go... send your personal servants to go and get that crap... Can't do this at home can you... cus back home servants cost a grip.... here not so much...

2) general uncleanliness outside...
I'm guessing thats what you meant... but yeah since you have a nice ride and nice home... and you go to pretty upscale places... why are you dealing with this crap... I don't see cows roaming the inside of Leela Palace... nor do I see people taking dumps at the movie theater or restaurant. chill at home... get in ur car... go where you want... and enjoy your life... who cares whats outside... cant smell it... why look at it... why does it bother you? regarding the animals.... buddy if you live in a good area you will find that there aren't animals everywhere... and say you don't agree... chill at home... get in ur car... go where you wanna go... why does it bother you? ur not driving... u got a driver... let him deal with that crap...

3) Child Labor

India has some of the best international schools around man... thats why all these expats are here working with their kids.... You say you have talked to a few expats who hate it... let me tell you man... they don't hate it... the pros outweigh the cons... otherwise they wouldn't be here... because hey by your own thinking... if you can get out of this country.... why don't you? right... so there has to be something keeping em here... and I have talked to a lottt of expats and the majority I have spoken to like life here... and these guys have come here to live... not on some 3 month project and then they go home... they say their life is comfortable... maids and servants to do the work... children go to good schools with other expat kids... they like it.

4)Good food and Alcohol

Buddy I eat out a lot here... I am a foodie... And let me tell you... India is the only place I can go out and order a large black label for under 10 dollars... try doing that at a club back home... you will get charged upwards of 20 dollars... haha... and the food... we have good restaurants provided you have the money to spend... there is good gourmet food to be had in India if you are rich... If you are in Bangalore... maybe I take you out and introduce you to some of these places...

5)Non oppressed girls
Buddy me and my friends go to clubs all the time and see them packed with girls partying just like the boys... so dunno what your point is here... if you can't get em at home you prolly wont get em here... gotta have game!

6)lack of gossip culture

what does that even mean... haha... although you are in a different country.. so the culture will be different... its not for you...we get that... but is it so hard to believe someone could like this culture better... i mean not everyone is in love with America man... I imagine with the unemployments being so bad right now... A comfortable life in India would be appealing to a lot of people back home...

7) preservation of your id
dunno what you mean here man... I've been here since 03 and I'm still me... I dont have an identity crisis... I still know who I am...

8) Independence
From what? you got money... you can do whatever you want in this country!

9)Reliability
Money buys reliability....

10)Productivity
dunno what you mean here...

11)Not as corrupts
- buddy if you have money... you can do whatever you want here... thats all there is to it...

Now lets see what the pros are of India vs. America...
-Cost of living
-level of living with the same money
you can live like a king here with the amount of money u need to just barely get by back home...
-servants
- America's economy and unemployment
no matter how great a country is... if you dont have a job or the money you cant enjoy it

There is more... im just tired of listing em out...

I'm not saying you should want to live in India... I don't... but I'm saying you should be open to someone else wanting it...

 

[relapse]

Hahahaha. Too easy bro.

Last time I checked in India, money doesn't go on trees, your right. It grows in forests.......forests of black money. For those that don't understand black money, thats a separate discussion. Black money has to be spent..might as well put it towards a ****ty education, or towards a nice mercedes or BMW...oh wait, a 7 series BMW or for that matter any royal car costs TWICE as much as one back home. Damn import tax....

1)clean air
depends on where I live? son, i've been to many places in India and the air is the same. theres no such thing as "fresh air" try going to the U.S. if you have a visa and you'll know what I mean. Air purifier?? I'm assuming you mean inside the house? That doesn't take care of the pollution the second you step outside. Oh wait, you can go in the nice mercedes you spent twice as much money as you should have and drive on the super clean and smooth roads where you don't face any obstacles that normally shouldn't be there and go to a five star hotel where they don't charge you 3 times as much for a bottle of whiskey and coke. oh wait.

2)general uncleanliness
Oh, i get it. because you have a mercedes, the potholes on the middle of the street, the traffic through my ass, and the inability to get over 50 kilometers on a fu***in highway disappears. my bad. driver? I actually like driving. haha

3)Child labour
expats don't come here out of choice dude. they come here because they F****d up back home. Nobody comes here because of choice. The expats I've talked to that are here for a couple of months are more than happy to be here for that long.

4)Good food and alcohol
Buddy, I'm an NRI living here. I eat out a lot too. India is the only place where I have bought a black label for under 10 dollars only to find out that its fake! hahah.

clubbing? oh wait, its couples only, and there are mostly guys that just stare at women to pick them up. its 1000 rupees for guys to get in not including drinks haha. Gourmet food? gourmet ass. You obviously haven't eaten at a gourmet restaurant. Maharaja mac from mcdanolds isn't gourmet sorry.

5)Non oppressed girls
Like you we also hit up clubs, and we see girls too, many of them. Just scared to touch em since they might be a ....dude.

6)gossip
it means everyone is fake. Friendships are very superficial if you had the brain to interpret that. Think about how many friends you have...real ones i mean. You obviously don't love a place you haven't been to so why are you talking about it?

7)identity
By your own admission and from your statement, it shows you have a crisis. Basically your lying with honesty.

8)Independence
Freedom comes in many forms, least of which means I can do whatever I want in this place. Bribing people? that happens everywhere buddy. U.S., Russia, India, Canada....

9)Reliability
Money rents reliability. You haven't experienced life enough to realize what that means.

10)Productivity
Everybody hears what your saying. Nobody listens....

11)Corruption
If you have money, you can do whatever the F you want to do anywhere

Now lets see what the pros are of America vs. India:

-Cost of living takes a toll on health, wealth, and prosperity.

-Level of living worth the quality

-Its worth living like a servant in paradise rather than living like a king of the slum....*One man with one eye will always be king in the city of blinds....

-America's freedom and prosperity

no matter how bad and corrupted a country is, if you don't have the decency or the pride to be true to yourself, you have an identity crisis and need to seek a child psychiatrist.

Its one thing to lie to a group of individuals. Everyone knows when someone does that and they just laugh. Its another to lie to yourself. Cmon, you hate India.

There is more, but my servant just passed away

 

[OneoftheGuptas]

Dude, seriously? This thread has gone from one topic, to a complete other topic. It's EXTREMELY apparent that you, as an NRI, have had difficulties adapting to life in India. I realize that you have frustrations living here, but you don't need to be rude and condescending in efforts to get your thoughts out.

You bring up this corruption topic quite often. Yes, it exists. That's why money gets you far here, farther than it will in the States. So what? If you don't want to be in a society that has it, go somewhere else. If someone doesn't mind it, what's it to you? Yes, there is pollution, dirt, and child labor. They are all bad things that need to be worked on. There are benefits to living here, aside from these things, which is why some people choose to stay.

DGGopal has brought up a few things that help to improve the quality of life here, immensely. A car, a servant, nice places to eat and have a few drinks. You act as if these things are so horrible? For someone from the states, perhaps having someone work for you seems a bit bourgeoisie. Here, though, these jobs (cook, maid, driver, etc) are the way that all those illiterate people below the poverty line are able to make a living and send their kids to school. You don't like having someone come do your dishes? Do them yourself. But if someone else hires a maid, don't bash on his choices, because chances are that that woman needs the money, much more than he needs her services.

As for your thoughts on what you do or do not consider fine dining. You really do sound extremely ignorant with your sarcastic comments. I stay in Bangalore, and there really are some extremely good restaurants here. Where exactly are you staying? If it's not a metro, then chances are you don't have lots of option, and it really does suck for you, with your best option being, of course, a Mc Donald's.

There are lots of other comments you have made, that I don't feel necessary to comment on. You've made things personal between you and other members of this forum, and I find that immature and disrespectful on your part. You really have no right to assume things about other people lives, habits, background, or anything else for that matter. They have been courteous and respectful towards you, and have been objective in their posts.

All in all, it really isn't a bad place to live when you've got the money, and when you learn to adapt, and find solutions for the things that bother you.

 

[relapse]

Money doesn't get you far because of corruption. Corruption is everywhere. Corruption in India is much, much different. You haven't experienced enough to understand that statement. I'm sorry.

Yes, yes in fact he has brought up some solutions. Sadly, the people are left only with more questions than answers.

Hiring a cook, maid, or driver isn't the way "those illiterate people" below the poverty line are able to make a living. Its keeping the 800+ million people that are making less than $1.25 under that exact line. Education, my friend, is the way for them to make that living. microfinance is another viable solution.

Having someone do your dishes, drive your own honda city, or clean your bathroom isn't considered "bourgeoisie" In america its called being lazy. I call it economic prostitution, desecration, exploitation

As for my thoughts regarding fine dining? I know what a restaurant is. Go to new york so you can see what I mean.

I'm sorry if i've made things personal, but I sometimes speak the truth. If the truth upsets you, thats another matter. If you are not being true to yourself, that also is another matter. When I hear pure unadulterated sophistry and garbage though, thats a matter I can't help to stop.

Please don't care to comment on the quality of living life in India vs. the quality of life in America. Apples v. Oranges. When I heard that, its what made the nature of this discussion what it is now. If you pay attention closely to what I've said previously, you'll see that everything that I've said is just as objective.

All in all, It's not that hard to ignore the fact that 800+million people are living on less than $1.25 a day.
The fact that the very individuals that contribute to the corruption and lack of economic progress are the citizens themselves by stating "just hire a maid, cook, and servant to take care of life's problems"
The fact that no indian will tell you the honest truth about india and suffers from "taj mahal syndrome" (lets talk about the slums) wonder why so many people hated slumdog millionaire
The fact that most if not all indians that are successful have left india to america and other countries.
The fact that everyone will talk about research in india as a big thing but when you mention the nobel prize amartya sen won for writing "The Argumentative Indian", they scoff and say he wasn't even Indian.
The fact that Indians themselves aren't true to themselves and deep down actually hate it.
The fact that although I love India more than a typical Indian him/herself, his/her lack of transparency with him/herself demoralizes others.

Watch slumdog millionaire, the movie that every Indian can't bare to watch.

Read a book that might be too advanced for you--An argumentative Indian--by the legendary Amartya Sen.

--Truthbetold

 

[relapse]

Sometimes the lack of substantive freedoms relates directly to economic poverty, which robs people of the freedom to satisfy hunger; or to achieve sufficient nutrition, or to obtain remedies for treatable illnesses or the opportunity to be adequatley clothed or sheltered, or to enjoy clean water or sanitary facilities. In other cases, the unfreedom links closely to the lack of public facilities and social care, such as the absence of epidemiological programs, or of organized arrangements for the health care or educational facilities, or of effective insititutions for the maintenance of local peace and order. In still other cases, the violation of freedom results directly from a denial of political and civil liberties by authoritarian regimes and from imposed restrictions on the freedom to participate in the social, political and economic life of the community.

---Amartya Sen

 

[Darkskies]

relapse, Please get your facts straight. According to the World Bank's 2005 estimate 42% of India's population falls below the international poverty line of $1.25 a day which corresponds to about 456 million Indians and not 800 million +. In 1981 the estimate for the number of Indians falling below the poverty line was 60 percent so there obviously has been significant improvement over the years. Also less than 5% of India's college educated populace immigrates to foreign countries, a percentage which is consistent with other developing countries with large populations. Somehow the other 95+% of college educated Indians manage to live comfortably in the country and are clearly not clamoring to get out of the "hellhole" you've described India to be.

 

[leorl]

Ok. wow. I can't say I even begin to understand the conversation when it began to deteriorate. Guys, please leave opinions and political / social beliefs out of this thread and just try to help the OP out objectively. If you want to talk about that other stuff, take it to the doctor's lounge... If this thread degenerates further, it'll be closed.

 

[relapse]

relapse, Please get your facts straight. According to the World Bank's 2005 estimate 42% of India's population falls below the international poverty line of $1.25 a day which corresponds to about 456 million Indians and not 800 million +. In 1981 the estimate for the number of Indians falling below the poverty line was 60 percent so there obviously has been significant improvement over the years. Also less than 5% of India's college educated populace immigrates to foreign countries, a percentage which is consistent with other developing countries with large populations. Somehow the other 95+% of college educated Indians manage to live comfortably in the country and are clearly not clamoring to get out of the "hellhole" you've described India to be.

According to the 2010 World Bank's population estimation (conservative) is about 1.25 billion. India is slated to exceed China's population by 2030. In 2000, the country established a new National Population Policy to stem the growth of the country’s population. One of the primary goals of the policy was to reduce the total fertility rate to 2.1 by 2010. One of the steps along the path toward the goal in 2010 was a total fertility rate of 2.6 by 2002.

As the total fertility rate in India remains at the high number of 2.8, that goal was not achieved so it is highly unlikely that the total fertility rate will be 2.1 by 2010. Thus, India’s population will continue to grow at an extremely rapid rate.

Based on current calculations, and assuming that 50% of the population of India lives under the poverty line 2010(extremely conservative), that equates to 625 million.

Next time you made an antiquated uneducated estimate, try visiting India and see if your willing to come back

 

[relapse]

Ok. wow. I can't say I even begin to understand the conversation when it began to deteriorate. Guys, please leave opinions and political / social beliefs out of this thread and just try to help the OP out objectively. If you want to talk about that other stuff, take it to the doctor's lounge... If this thread degenerates further, it'll be closed.

note to moderator: this information is designed to help adequately inform the OP about facts and not opinions or political/social beliefs regarding both environments. He states that as an IMG, he would like constructive advice regarding both situations and I have stated that as objectively as possible. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

 

[relapse]

bump

 

[dggopal]

Relapse... no one has any problem with your arguments... they have problems with the way you make them.

comments like the following really make you look unreasonably biased and belligerent, and in fact take away from your whole argument by drawing more focus to them rather than what you are really trying to say:

"try going to the U.S. if you have a visa"
"You obviously haven't eaten at a gourmet restaurant"
"Friendships are very superficial if you had the brain to interpret that"
"You obviously don't love a place you haven't been to so why are you talking about it?"
"You haven't experienced life enough to realize what that means."
"Read a book that might be too advanced for you"


Buddy you don't even know me or other people responding to you that well... who do you think you are, talking to people this way? what? just because you are on the internet and not face to face you speak to other people like they are beneath you because they cant do anything to you? LOL seems like YOU haven't experienced life enough!

And also... the quote you seem to repeat multiple times is actually "In the country of the BLIND, the ONE-EYED man is KING"

furthermore I think we are all old enough to note that you putting the mods favorite smiley at the end of your post isn't going to change the nature of your abrasive posts nor make them more agreeable...

 

[dggopal]

sorry multiple post... power went out and I kept hitting post...

 

[dggopal]

.

 

[dggopal]

.

 

[dggopal]

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[dggopal]

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[relapse]

Sometimes the lack of substantive freedoms relates directly to economic poverty, which robs people of the freedom to satisfy hunger; or to achieve sufficient nutrition, or to obtain remedies for treatable illnesses or the opportunity to be adequatley clothed or sheltered, or to enjoy clean water or sanitary facilities. In other cases, the unfreedom links closely to the lack of public facilities and social care, such as the absence of epidemiological programs, or of organized arrangements for the health care or educational facilities, or of effective insititutions for the maintenance of local peace and order. In still other cases, the violation of freedom results directly from a denial of political and civil liberties by authoritarian regimes and from imposed restrictions on the freedom to participate in the social, political and economic life of the community.

---Amartya Sen

The Argumentative Indian is a book written by the Indian Nobel Prize winning economist Amartya Sen. It is a collection of essays that discuss India's history and identity, focusing on the traditions of public debate and intellectual pluralism. Martha Nussbaum says the book "demonstrates the importance of public debate in Indian traditions generally."
The Argumentative Indian has brought together a selection of writings from Sen that outline the need to understand contemporary India in the light of its long argumentative tradition. The understanding and use of this argumentative tradition are critically important, Sen argues, for the success of India's democracy, the defence of its secular politics, the removal of inequalities related to class, caste, gender and community, and the pursuit of sub-continental peace.

Please read the book. He was born in India. Associated with the following universities:

Harvard University
Cornell University
Delhi School of Economics
Cambridge University
Oxford University
London School of Economics
Princeton University
Jadavpur University

Has a PhD

 

[relapse]

Till this post, nobody has been able to refute any of the harsh realities I have stated regarding the pains of living in modern India.

Will anyone with any knowledge regarding India please care to delineate as to why the OP would like to stay in India as opposed to go back to his beautiful home country?

 

[dggopal]

Yeah I haven't read this book... but seems interesting... will pick it up next time I see it....

I think you are misunderstanding my arguments... I am not trying to sweep India's many problems under the proverbial rug... they are blatantly evident the second you step outside your house where ever you live in India...

What I am saying is... suppose someone does recognize all those short comings in comparison to his home country( be in America or where ever) is it unthinkable for him to deal with those problems to gain the few( or maybe many who knows) benefits that India does have over the said home country....

I mean suppose there is something a person finds in India that he absolutely loves.... lets say the slow paced life, or the fact that HERE... neighbors do know you and you do interact more than a hi and bye, or whatever... the whole village life style or say the spirituality of this country( you find self proclaimed Babus at every corner not to mention the whole polytheistic aspect of Religion in India)....

Couldn't that one thing( or things...) make it be possible for that person to choose to deal with all the other downsides of India?

I know I haven't found something like that here... something to make it better than America... I want to go home now... but if the OP has found life comfortable here and something that he likes here... then well who are we to say no... go home!

 

[OneoftheGuptas]

So, back to original post:

Some of these pros and cons may be redundant to what previous members listed, but Id like to give them from my perspective. For me, the pros do not necessarily outweigh the cons, but they may for another person.

PROS:

1. Life is comfortable here, when you have money. The amount of money it takes to get by in the states will get you farther here. If you want to live like an American, though, where you have a nice big place, a fancy car, and you want to be eating out at non-Indian places a few days a week, with loads of luxuries on top of that, be prepared to spend loads of money! If you plan on starting a family here, please take that into consideration, as well.
In the states, you generally earn according to the amount of effort that is put in, provided you are pretty decent at what you do. Here, it's going to take more than that.

2. Yes, the metros in India are growing, and everyday there is something new that makes life more similar to life in the states. In Bangalore, the only thing that I have found a lack of is Mexican food! Everything else is available, provided I want to pay the price for it, from food to beauty products, to clothing brands, and to household items.

3. Being an NRI doctor that is not afraid to spend his money generously will get you all the ass-kissing in the world. In the states, people are less bothered about who you are and how much money you have. This could also work against you, however. This happens all over the world, but I find it is easier to achieve here. Doctors get unbelievable amounts of respect here (whether or not we deserve it), and have all the freedom in the world, without having to worry about lawsuits and liability. This, again, works to your advantage, provided you WORK HARD.


CONS:

1. The most obvious cons are the dust, dirt, pollution, uncleanliness, traffic, and general lack of infrastructure. I have learned to adapt to it, by staying in a flat that is higher up, and calling cabs when I need to go places. (I don't drive in India) As a germophobe, these are big cons for me.

2. Attitute, mindset, and behavior of people in India is going to be different than where you come from. Not being able to relate and understand people can be extremely frustrating. It can be stimulating and exciting to someone who enjoys that sort of thing, though. For me, it is the former.

3. Life here is very slow and relaxed. Nothing is rushed, and things are done on their own time. For me, this is a con, but for some this is a pro. In the states, you can get 5 things done in one day. Here, it will take 5 days for one thing. On top of that, most places are closed for several hours during the day for lunch, so you end up wasting half your day to even MEET someone. I appreciate efficiency, and this is the complete opposite.

4. Things are not straight-forward. There is always someone higher up who's ass needs to be kissed, and there is always someone who can be paid off to get your work done. This can work in your benefit if you have the patience and street-smarts. For me, I'd rather not deal with it the rest of my life. I've learned a lot in India, and would rather use that knowledge to my advantage in America.

5. I, personally, appreciate the American education system much more after being in the Indian system for several years. I would not want my kids to be raised in this environment and this system. Making the decision to stay here cannot just be based on your present lifestyle, you must think about the future and what you expect out of life.

6. I do not like to be in a society where everyone minds everyone elses business, rather than their own. This can also be translated positively into a closeness of society where you know your neighbors, there is a feeling of community, and kids grow up together and what not. Even in the suburban areas of the US where neighbors know each other and are relatively close knit, there is still a sense of formality and boundaries are rarely overstepped.

7. Obviously the population and lack of education amongst most the population will bring the problems of poverty, hunger, child labor, diseases, etc.

I'm sure there are some pros and cons that I have overlooked, but for the time being, these are the things I can think of off the top of my head.

I hope it helps.

 

[relapse]

Yeah I haven't read this book... but seems interesting... will pick it up next time I see it....

I mean suppose there is something a person finds in India that he absolutely loves.... lets say the slow paced life, or the fact that HERE... neighbors do know you and you do interact more than a hi and bye, or whatever... the whole village life style or say the spirituality of this country( you find self proclaimed Babus at every corner not to mention the whole polytheistic aspect of Religion in India)....
Couldn't that one thing( or things...) make it be possible for that person to choose to deal with all the other downsides of India?

with all due respect, I don't think there is reason to believe that 1.1billion people under no governance and rule of law will be living a "slow paced life,"
I've visited the capital of India all the way down to remote villages in the outskirts and the thinking is all the same.

Neighbors know the people that surround their villages India is just a bunch of villages just like LA is a bunch of suburbs. They all talk sh** when your not looking and the whole "village life style" that you mention is not desirable for someone that was brought up in the U.S.

Spirituality of the country? Sorry, but as a devout Hindu, I've actually studied Hinduism and am not afraid to tell you that its dead. There are no practicing aspects of anythings even closely related to hinduism in modern india. I was expecting swami's to greet you and for them to be enlightened, worship purity, preach the essence of core principles, and be totally uncorrupt. I came in for the biggest surprise of my entire life when I landed here.

The whole polytheistic aspect of the religion is a misnomer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an atheist or anything but many scholars will argue that regarding polytheistic aspects of religion (in India), its all a farce.

Look, I hope I'm not coming off as judgmental or rude, but what I speak is just the harsh plain reality of the situation of living in modern India.

When you read the book by Sen, pay attention to the core issues that run the country of India and see if you can integrate the facets that he describes to the daily routine that you go through. I will be happy to tell you that almost all of it not only makes perfect sense but is extremely striking and is exactly the reason why he received the prize.

--TruthBeTold

 

[OneoftheGuptas]

Relapse, you are once again trying to argue someone else's perspective. India is different in different areas, and according to where I or DGGopal are living, we have given our viewpoints. Please feel free to give yours, but do not assume that someone else' thoughts are wrong. You may not think life in India is slow, while another person does. I, coming from LA, find it extremely slow.

Most the people posting on here are or have been students from India, and are originally from countries other than India. You are not the only person experiencing things in India, and you seem to keep implying that you are. You are also not the OP, and cannot assume what he/she does or does not need in life. I may be reading it wrong, but that's what I am understanding from your posts.

This is not about present day Hinduism as you see it, or corruption that you are able to see around you. Relapse, please stop doing the same thing over and over again in all the threads that you choose to post in. You go off topic, create some arguments, and then claim that it is all in order to help the OP, and try to appease once the admin gets involved. One thread has already been closed thanks to a similar situation.

Let's try and actually HELP Schmartdoc.

 

[relapse]

in response to PimpinPuji's posts:

While all of the cons you listed are self-evident once you visit India and experience the daily life for no more than 2 days, I have to kindly disagree with the pro's you listed in the following regard:

1. In the states, you generally earn according to the amount of effort that is put in, provided you are pretty decent at what you do. Here, it's going to take more than that.

I do agree with the last statement you have said. Its going to take a lot less morals and a sense of normalcy.

Definiton of normalcy: the ability and extent of an individual to adapt and accept corruption.

2. The metro's are growing? The only thing theyre growing in is population. Only a lack of mexican food in Bangalore? No offense, but you have to look just a little bit harder. I've been to bangalore only for a few days and found a lot more than just mexican food missing. Its a great city but by no measure New york City, or Chicago, or Washington D.C.

3. Doctors do get a lot of respect here but its not quality respect.
"One man with one eye will always be king in the city of blinds" Think hard about that quote and you will understand what I mean by that. The respect doesn't mean much. You don't have to worry about lawsuits and liability because every patient that doctors treat have some sort of infection when they come out. Since there is absence of law in India, of course there won't be any liability.

The only day that matters is the day that a patient comes in on a stretcher and leaves on his feet. If the OP wants to become a truly competent doctor, he's going to have to work is a** off no matter where he is.

--TruthBeTold

 

[relapse]

I think if the OP actually reads in depth into any of my posts he/she will see that I state the truth in a clear objective fair and balanced manner.

And not the truth you see in india that everyone talks about which is just a lie.

Oh I forgot, by lie i mean different version of the truth.

 

[relapse]

Relapse, you are once again trying to argue someone else's perspective. India is different in different areas, and according to where I or DGGopal are living, we have given our viewpoints. Please feel free to give yours, but do not assume that someone else' thoughts are wrong. You may not think life in India is slow, while another person does. I, coming from LA, find it extremely slow.

Most the people posting on here are or have been students from India, and are originally from countries other than India. You are not the only person experiencing things in India, and you seem to keep implying that you are. You are also not the OP, and cannot assume what he/she does or does not need in life. I may be reading it wrong, but that's what I am understanding from your posts.

This is not about present day Hinduism as you see it, or corruption that you are able to see around you. Relapse, please stop doing the same thing over and over again in all the threads that you choose to post in. You go off topic, create some arguments, and then claim that it is all in order to help the OP, and try to appease once the admin gets involved. One thread has already been closed thanks to a similar situation.

Let's try and actually HELP Schmartdoc.

First off, the thread was closed due to an argument between an individual from the caribbean stating his version of the "truth" and an American student clearly upset with his interpretation. He stated that he was trained in NY which is the same mentality I see with a lot of IMG's studying in India comparing the quality of education with that of the U.S.


Second, as I stated previously, religion was never a part of this. dg brought up that one of the big advantages of living in India was due to various aspects of Hinduism but as anyone from India can tell you, it is not practiced.


There is no such thing as a lie. Just different version of the truth.

The most important thing I've experienced in India was that an individual is able to lie with honesty

There is no such thing as bribe. Its called philanthropy.

 

[dggopal]

hmmm... arlight I think we ARE going on a tangent( an interesting one... that SHOULD be discussed in another thread)

Also... I presume Schmartdoc has either chosen to remain silent due to the true reason actually being laziness... or also possibly the initial argument.... at any rate he hasn't been posting recently so I can only guess that he has lost interest in this thread... unfortunately

 

[relapse]

your right about the silence. Wrong about the reason.

silence means agreement.

 

[dggopal]

haha... it indeed does mean agreement.... in some cases.... and although you choose to see his silence as an absolute proof of his agreement... I'll remain more open to alternate explanations... u maybe right... might not be... only schmartdoc knows for sure....

 

[schmartdoc]

Thank you so much for making my decision for going back to US. I have been busy preparing for the IInd professional final exam. When I had posted this thread, I didn't know anyone will even care to read my question. I thank you all so much because you have opened my eyes for the things I was not even aware of. I had some idea about the problem but you have spelled them out to me. Thank you my friends.

 

[relapse]

Thank you so much for making my decision for going back to US. I have been busy preparing for the IInd professional final exam. When I had posted this thread, I didn't know anyone will even care to read my question. I thank you all so much because you have opened my eyes for the things I was not even aware of. I had some idea about the problem but you have spelled them out to me. Thank you my friends.

You are absolutely welcome schmartdoc. While your question initially did not receive substantial popularity, I tried to give an interpretation of life in India from a neutral standpoint. I hope that I was able to convey information regarding your question from a fair and balanced point of view as a fellow IMG myself. As I was not aware myself of a lot of the things I've stated, my aim was to save you some time from the experiences I've had. I hope you see to it that the roads you will face regardless of your decision will be tough and fraught with difficulties. Please let me know if you have any further questions or clarifications regarding any of the objective statements I have previously posted and I will be more than happy to enlighten.

 

[OneoftheGuptas]

Schmartdoc, I'm glad that you were able to come do a decision, and that you have decided to go back home. Wish you all the best in the future.

And please remember that only discipline and hard work will help you achieve your goals, no matter which path you choose.

 

[CaliAtenza]

Thank you so much for making my decision for going back to US. I have been busy preparing for the IInd professional final exam. When I had posted this thread, I didn't know anyone will even care to read my question. I thank you all so much because you have opened my eyes for the things I was not even aware of. I had some idea about the problem but you have spelled them out to me. Thank you my friends.

for some reason this sounded sarcastic...

 

[Emmet2301]

I can get why a person would want to stay in their "home country" (aka US, UK etc.), but talking smack and etc about your place of origin is like selling out. There must be somethings that you are proud of of your place of origin.

 

[relapse]

I can get why a person would want to stay in their "home country" (aka US, UK etc.), but talking smack and etc about your place of origin is like selling out. There must be somethings that you are proud of of your place of origin.

There are a lot of things I'm proud. Just none that have anything to do with mother india.

 

[ORELL]

u are asking ur personal problem of settling down with people on SDN thats so ******ed

 

[zing]

Couldn't resist posting (after reading some interesting posts by relapse )

Relapse:
Your responses involve references to socio-economic and moral factors that could potentially prove deciding points. Unfortunately, your grasp of the actual situation concerning the OP and logic fail you.

You write of issues such as treatment of servants, oppression of women, the percentage of the population below the poverty line, child labor, spiritual gurus etc, except they don't matter in the least to the OP (at least not in the context of his impending decision).

As for the moral preaching:
You admit no IMG (like yourself) can ever "like" India, and yet you "love" India. This is a rather intricate nuance unexpected of someone making coarse generalizations, but lets give you the benifit of the doubt. However, you do reveal your true colors by persistenly insisting the OP returns to America. You don't seem to enjoy India at all. Why do you love it? People never abandon what they love. They fight for it. And here you are, encouraging an exodus.

The reason I couldn't resist posting is that you don't seem like a troll. You may not have malicious intentions, but this discussion has veered far from its original purpose, mainly due to your frustrations and palpable insecurities. What is it that has you so scared? Be a man and face up.
I'm sure there will be a B.S response, but that doesn't help anyone. Unless of course you are a troll and all your previous posts in this discussion were just for kicks. In that case, touche.

 

[zing]

Just an additional note to relapse:

When the OP stated that he's made up his mind, you swoop in and take credit (nice job!), while clarifying yet again that your perspective is "balanced," "neutral" and "objective." Care to add some more adjectives?

Just state your "facts" and "experiences" and let the rest of us decide what they should be labelled.