Random Drug Testing During Residency?

[double elle]

Oh wow - had to get in on this one!

I don't smoke weed. I've done it about 3 times - in college (8-9 years ago) and so much time lapsed between each time that all three times was like the first time...laughed my butt off and was SSSOOOOOOOO happy!

Anyway - that isn't the point I am trying to make....lol..

My comment is that we are in a very stressful profession. Some people have hobbies that they do to relax. Me? I run, but that's about it. I didn't have time to really get into a hobby. And, when I am in the middle of a medicine rotation that's kicking my butt - there are times when I'd like to do something to TOTALLY relax. I think about that...smoking a little - but I'd never do it now...too risky and I'm not taking any chances after I've put this much work into it. However, I can count at least 20 residents, docs, and classmates right off the top of my head who indulge once in a while. Yeah, it's illegal, but it's being done. Is there a 'responsible way' to smoke pot? I don't know. Just don't come to the hospital stoned and screw up. As for it being a gateway drug at this stage in the game - I would think that would be unlikely....that applies more for teens who are at risk. However, addiction does happen, so just be careful if you're going to do it. I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong...I'm just saying that it happens.

If you choose to NOT do it, then you don't have anything else to worry about.

Oh, as for the hair test to check for drugs....if you don't have hair on your head - they take pubes....I worked in a casino a long time ago and they did this to a guy who always shaved his head...marched him right in to the bathroom to get the sample!

Everyone take care - and good luck come July!

---

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[WilcoWorld]

f___w: Could you please explain how prominence's passing a drug test by abstaining from substances before taking it constitutes "cheat(ing) the system".

 

[random_person]

Oh wow - had to get in on this one!

Oh, as for the hair test to check for drugs....if you don't have hair on your head - they take pubes....I worked in a casino a long time ago and they did this to a guy who always shaved his head...marched him right in to the bathroom to get the sample!

Everyone take care - and good luck come July!

Mental note to self, shave all bodily hair before residency

 

[f_w]

> f___w: Could you please explain how prominence's passing a drug
> test by abstaining from substances before taking it constitutes
> "cheat(ing) the system".

Funny you should ask. Just 5 minutes ago I filled out the application for another medical license. And right or wrong, here is how the medical board of that state thinks about it:

---------------------------

Definitions:
"Chemical Substances" is to be construed to include alcohol, drugs or medications including those taken pursuant to a valid prescrition for legitimate medical purposes and in accordance with the prescribers direction, as well as those used illegally.

"Currently"does not mean on the day of, or even in the weeks or months preceeding the competion of this application. Rather, it means recently enough so that the use of drugs may havee an ongoing impact on one's functioning as alicensee, or within the past two years (empasis added in exactly this way on the medical board form)

Further down on the form:

XX. Are you currently engaged in the the illegal use of controlled dangerous substances ?

---------------

So, they want to know whether you puffed in the last two years. Of course, you can lie on this application, but mercy on you if you run into trouble a year down the line and they investigate you (or if one of your buddies or suppliers runs afoul of the law and trades some dirt on you for a year less at Leavenworth)

Pretty much every other state has something similar in their license or training license application. (Also, the formal application for your residency program will have a section on this). If 'prominence' is so concerned about when he has to stop in order to pass the drug-test it does mean cheating the system. The idea of provider drug testing is not whether they used drugs on THAT DAY, the idea is to find out whether they use drugs period.

 

[prominence]

how you can stop at any time (denial)

let me make it absolutely clear to you: i have no intention of stopping my marijuana habit.

f_w, u sound like a Type A personality that desperately needs to get laid. Deny that!

 

[f_w]

> let me make it absolutely clear to you: i have no intention of
> stopping my marijuana habit.

Well, then good luck to you. Just don't cry that nobody told you.

> f_w, u sound like a Type A personality that desperately needs
> to get laid. Deny that!

Type A: yes
desperate to get laid: No (can get that at my leisure, one of the upsides of a good marriage)

 

[medic170]

The fact that you are looking into ways on how to cheat the system is a bit worriesome. OldPsydoc is probably more qualified to comment on that, but some of the hallmarks of chemical dependency (back when I was in medschool) used to be:

- Continued use despite adverse consequences or the threat of adverse consequences
- Denial, minimization, rationalization, projection.

As a physician, the threat of adverse consequences is very real. And your long explanations as to
- how you can stop at any time (denial)
- how pot is really not that bad (minimization)
- how it is not worse than alcohol (rationalization)
- how working 36 hours is an impairment far worse (projection on others)
fit very nicely into the second category.

Great post. Don't get upset when users call you names and say your a tightwad with a stick up your ass. I opined against MJ use on another thread, and that is all I got. I guess it is ok to use MJ, but if you have the opinion that it is bad or wrong, than you are a tightwad jerk

 

[WilcoWorld]

Prominence: I would say that I pity any lawyer who might one day defend you in court, but that would mean I might one day pity a lawyer, so nevermind.

 

[f_w]

I should have known better, I used to drive a cab for a living:

- don't argue with drunks (or people with pupils >5mm or <1mm)
- don't doubt food-stamps or the need for free child daycare

 

[MD'05]

hey tough guy, get off your high horse.

whether u like it or not, the reality is there are alot of medical students out there who smoke weed. i doubt that EVERY single of them have quit cold turkey once they began residency.

i am not asking people to approve/disapprove of weed, or to warn me of the harmful effects of it.

do most residency programs out there make their residents submit random urine samples to test for drug use?

Thanks for letting the world know.

I personally don't smoke, but I do enjoy a good 5 mLs of Fetanyl IV now and then.

 

[MD'05]

do most residency programs out there make their residents submit random urine samples to test for drug use?

Yes, some do. Depends on how many of their residents smoke. If drugs are rampant, usually the program does not test.

 

[Febrifuge]

Actually, I think reading this thread has caused some brain cells to die, and it's definitely making me giggle. I'd better stop now.

 

[jazz]

prominence,

i think a lot of residencies do a drug screen during orientation. you should find out soon in your orientation materials. unfortunately that means you'll have to lay off the stuff soon and definitely during graduation week if you want to pass. i've never heard of anyone getting retested though i'm sure in a lot of residency contracts it probably says it can ask for a random uds.

 

[starayamoskva]

Any on the job injury; slip and fall on the freshly mopped floor, needle stick, patient cold cocks you, even blood splash on your mucus membranes will get you a drug test even if it is not your fault (the nurse jabs a needle in your hand) ... it is just part of how things work in the world of having a job. So do what you want just don't whine if you get caught.

prominence,

i think a lot of residencies do a drug screen during orientation. you should find out soon in your orientation materials. unfortunately that means you'll have to lay off the stuff soon and definitely during graduation week if you want to pass. i've never heard of anyone getting retested though i'm sure in a lot of residency contracts it probably says it can ask for a random uds.

 

[turtle md]

Definitions:
"Chemical Substances" is to be construed to include ALCOHOL
"Currently" within the past TWO years

ohmygod whatdoido.. i had a glass of wine with dinner last night. i hope that people don´t think i am a filthy drug-abusing low-life...

the attitudes of some of this thread´s posters makes me a little ashamed of my chosen profession. chill out people and stop the personal attacks.

 

[f_w]

> XX. Are you currently engaged in the the illegal use of
> controlled dangerous substances ?

That is why in the entire questionaire, they use the word 'currently' only in this one question pertaining to 'controlled dangerous substances'. There are some other questions like:

XX. Does you use ofchemical substance(s) in any way impair your ability to practice medicine with reasonable skill and safety? If yes, please explain.

So, they don't care whether you have a glass of wine with dinner. They DO care whether you need to store a 12ounce glass of vodka next to your sink in order to control your tremors in the morning before you can brush your teeth.

I hope I haven't personally attacked anyone in an undue manner, I just see that a couple of people here have attitudes towards drugs that put them at risk for an early end to their promising young medical careers.

 

[soon2bdoc2003]

do residency programs require their residents to give random urine samples?

i smoke marijuana in my spare time, and i wanted to know if need to get a masking agent to continue my habit.

These things will be spelled out in your contract. Most hospitals will give a piss test as part of the blanket pre-employment physical that they give to every new employee. As it stands now there is no mandatory random testing and 99+% of residency programs. Many states have specific guidelines for "impaired physician" protocols.. so its not enough to just come out and say "doc xyz looks a little wierd lets give him a cup to fill". If however, some fentanly or demerol goes missing and you are a possible suspect you will most likely get tested and in a manner that wont exactly give you enough time to clear your system or take some useless detox potion. Health considerations aside, mj is still against the law and as a health care professional you are risking EVERYTHING if you get caught. At the bare minimum you are looking at suspension + mandatory inpatient rehab.. if you are in a pro-doctor state like NJ you will be shielded from the medical board and the state but in many other places this will go on your permanent employment record and will haunt you for the rest of your career. On top of all this, most "official" urine drug screens are evidentiary tests done with chain of custody and you SS# attached and will be kept on file in that state FOREVER. One of my friends failed a piss test for weed during clinicals in NY and has been told that he will no longer be employable as an MD in this state... never! Not so bad for him since he doesnt want to work here but you can imagine the consequences otherwise.

Moral of the story:
1. If your gonna smoke make sure your image is so clean and spotless you will never raise eyebrows or arouse suspicion.
2. Have an attorneys number in your wallet. Before you piss your career away (literally) find out what your rights are and have someone to help you protect them.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Today's Washington Post has a lengthy article that discusses some aspects of this issue (but nothing here about recovery programs... )

Medical Boards Let Physicians Practice Despite Drug Abuse
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39677-2005Apr9.html/?nav=yb-t1

 

[medic170]

Before you piss your career away (literally) find out what your rights are and have someone to help you protect them.

FYI, contrary to popular belief on this subject, you do nothave the right to break the law. Which includes using illegal drugs like MJ.

 

[turtle md]

The scuttlebutt where I went to medical school was that if a resident came in for anything (i.e., trauma, needle-stick, etc.) they would NOT do a UDS b/c they were afraid of what they would find. I knew quite a few residents who took advantage of this and would toke socially.

 

[MD'05]

One of our attendings is a recovered addict. He lectures on the subject to raise awareness of how medical student binge drinking and drug use can lead to dependence and patient care issues.

 

[Funkdoctor]

I am currently a premed hoping to get into medical school for the fall of 2007. I am applying to Osteopathic schools only partly because when I was 18,19, and 20 I liked to toke a little myself, this definitely hurt my grades (A LOT). Since I stopped toking, my grades have been outstanding in every class I have taken. However, before I quit my bad habit I was issued a ticket for possesion (a violation not a misdeamenor), the ticket ended up getting dropped. After I recieved that ticket I certainly did some soul searching and in a way I am happy I was given that ticket cause it helped me change for the better.

My question is does anyone know if this little run in with the law is going to hurt me if I do get accepted to med school when I apply for licensing? btw this happened in late 2002 so by the time I would be finishing school it would be like 9 years that will have passed. Any advice that you guys can give me would be appreciated a lot!

 

[medic170]

I am currently a premed hoping to get into medical school for the fall of 2007. I am applying to Osteopathic schools only partly because when I was 18,19, and 20 I liked to toke a little myself, this definitely hurt my grades (A LOT). Since I stopped toking, my grades have been outstanding in every class I have taken. However, before I quit my bad habit I was issued a ticket for possesion (a violation not a misdeamenor), the ticket ended up getting dropped. After I recieved that ticket I certainly did some soul searching and in a way I am happy I was given that ticket cause it helped me change for the better.

My question is does anyone know if this little run in with the law is going to hurt me if I do get accepted to med school when I apply for licensing? btw this happened in late 2002 so by the time I would be finishing school it would be like 9 years that will have passed. Any advice that you guys can give me would be appreciated a lot!

Good for you Wow, another story of MJ having negative effects, who woulda thunk it. You said the ticket was dropped, so you should not have any troubles.

 

[prominence]

have there been any research studies which examine the relationship between smoking marijuana and a decline in sperm count?

 

[Funkdoctor]

Good for you Wow, another story of MJ having negative effects, who woulda thunk it. You said the ticket was dropped, so you should not have any troubles.

I appreciate your response. Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just had my one curiosity question. Medic170, you gave me some reassurance. I didnt' think it would hurt me either since it was only a violation (a ticket, not an arrest), it was dropped, it will have happened a while ago by the time I apply for licensing, and I do not smoke anymore. Reading some of the replies on here just made me a little nervous. The only thing I am a little worried about is when the D.E.A. does their background check, having it show up. I am almost certain I will have to explain myself, which I don't mind it is part of being accountable for my own actions. I just hope they don't tell me I can 't be a doctor after busting my a$$ for a countless number of years. That would suck really bad!

 

[medic170]

I appreciate your response. Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just had my one curiosity question. Medic170, you gave me some reassurance. I didnt' think it would hurt me either since it was only a violation (a ticket, not an arrest), it was dropped, it will have happened a while ago by the time I apply for licensing, and I do not smoke anymore. Reading some of the replies on here just made me a little nervous. The only thing I am a little worried about is when the D.E.A. does their background check, having it show up. I am almost certain I will have to explain myself, which I don't mind it is part of being accountable for my own actions. I just hope they don't tell me I can 't be a doctor after busting my a$$ for a countless number of years. That would suck really bad!

I doubt it will be a problem.

 

[Funkdoctor]

I doubt it will be a problem.

Thanks buddy, however if it is a problem I will have one hell of a mountain of debt to pay back with no realistic way to do so!

 

[medic170]

Thanks buddy, however if it is a problem I will have one hell of a mountain of debt to pay back with no realistic way to do so!

send an anonymous email to your state licensing board.

 

[Funkdoctor]

send an anonymous email to your state licensing board.

Good idea but I am not in the state I would like to practice in. I am in NY and I would like to practice in FL.

 

[aphistis]

have there been any research studies which examine the relationship between smoking marijuana and a decline in sperm count?

We can but hope such a correlation exists.

 

[joshmir]

i just filled out the MA license application...a number of their questions pointedly asked "In the last ten years..." re criminal convictions, malpractice, etc. substance abuse may be a ten year question.

most states have their license appsonline for you to look at what q's you'll have to answer...may encourage you to take a year off to do research if trhere's a 10 year question..also, anonymous calls/emails would be very helpful. you should look into this now.

I appreciate your response. Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just had my one curiosity question. Medic170, you gave me some reassurance. I didnt' think it would hurt me either since it was only a violation (a ticket, not an arrest), it was dropped, it will have happened a while ago by the time I apply for licensing, and I do not smoke anymore. Reading some of the replies on here just made me a little nervous. The only thing I am a little worried about is when the D.E.A. does their background check, having it show up. I am almost certain I will have to explain myself, which I don't mind it is part of being accountable for my own actions. I just hope they don't tell me I can 't be a doctor after busting my a$$ for a countless number of years. That would suck really bad!

 

[DireWolf]

We can but hope such a correlation exists.

 

[medic170]

We can but hope such a correlation exists.

Amen to that

 

[DireWolf]

Amen to that

amen to you getting hit by a car.

 

[medic170]

amen to you getting hit by a car.

I am in awe at the maturity you are demonstrating by wishing death upon me because you disagree with me. grow up.

 

[DireWolf]

Go to hell.

I'll see you there, fuko.

 

[medic170]

I'll see you there, fuko.

No, I won't be going there. In fact, I am going to pray for you tonight. BTW, what is a "fuko"?

 

[DireWolf]

No, I won't be going there. In fact, I am going to pray for you tonight.

thanks bro.

and i'm going to pray that you grow a sac and stop being so sensitive.

 

[DrMom]

you guys need to cool it, please.

 

[DireWolf]

you guys need to cool it, please.

sorry mom.

my work is done here.

 

[medic170]

sorry mom.

my work is done here.

PM to medic170:
**** Edited by Admin

When she said cool it, she did not mean to start sending me PM's to flame me for not using MJ.

 

[DireWolf]

PM to medic170:


When she said cool it, she did not mean to start sending me PM's to flame me for not using MJ.

drop it already.

 

[medic170]

drop it already.

As long as I do not get any more nasty PM's from you, it is dropped.

 

[Funkdoctor]

i just filled out the MA license application...a number of their questions pointedly asked "In the last ten years..." re criminal convictions, malpractice, etc. substance abuse may be a ten year question.

most states have their license appsonline for you to look at what q's you'll have to answer...may encourage you to take a year off to do research if trhere's a 10 year question..also, anonymous calls/emails would be very helpful. you should look into this now.

Thanks for the advice. Yeah Florida does have their app online. They ask for 5 years back, however I am slightly worried about 1 question.

The question asks "Have you ever been criminally or civilly charged with any intentional or negligent action related to the use or misuse of drugs, alcohol, or illegal chemical substances?"

I'm not the worlds smartest man when it comes to legal bull****. I don't know if it means I will have to list getting my mj possession ticket or what? It asks about alcholol to so maybe the question is asking if you ever got in trouble for doing something under the influence of a mind altering substance?

I'm thinking that since by the time I apply it will have been like 9 years prior they will not break my balls about it. Like I stated in an earlier post on this thread I haven't touched that **** since my ticket nor would I EVER again!

Apparently they have some kind of impaired physician program too. I think it would be rather ridicolous to think that they would let a physician who has already demonstrated that they used illegal or abused legal substances after becoming a physician continue to practice, but not let a kid who has led a clean life since making some mistakes as a teenager and 20 year old 9 years prior not get licensed. Hell the last two commanders in chiefs have puffed a couple of L's in their day.

 

[f_w]

> The question asks "Have you ever been criminally or civilly charged
> with any intentional or negligent action related to the use or misuse
> of drugs, alcohol, or illegal chemical substances?"
>
> I'm not the worlds smartest man when it comes to legal bull****.
> I don't know if it means I will have to list getting my mj possession
> ticket or what?

You might have to cough up a couple of $$ and talk to a good criminal defense attorney. I believe your ticket was dismissed later on. In the strict sense of the law you might have never been 'charged' with possession. (But again, I don't ask my attorney for medical advice, so you should take anything anyone tells you here as pure hearsay.)

> I'm thinking that since by the time I apply it will have been like 9 years
> prior they will not break my balls about it.

Depends on what state you are in. Chances are they will license you. But they might call you for an in-person interview with the board or they might send you to the substance abuse shrink contracted for their impaired physician program to get an official opinion on whether you can practice safely. These guys are very careful about not ending up on page 1 of the state newspaper if you f((* up later.

 

[Winged Scapula]

When she said cool it, she did not mean to start sending me PM's to flame me for not using MJ.

Please be advised that PMs are considered Private and are not to be posted in the forums without the express permission of the sender (and Major League Baseball). I have thus edited this post to remove the PM content.

Thanks.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I don't ask my attorney for medical advice, so you should take anything anyone tells you here as pure hearsay.

That's the best advice I've seen on this whole thread.

 

[ucladukes]

I'm curious, how many of you anti-stoners have actually smoked a j and felt like doing any of the dumb sh*! you do when you're drunk. - EtOH is a much greater public health risk!
I probably won't do it for fear of losing my license, but you better believe that if it was legalized, I would kick off every friday afternoon (assuming no duties the next day) with a phattie.

Would all of the stoner-haters feel the same if it was legal? Just curious.

 

[14022]

I probably won't do it for fear of losing my license, but you better believe that if it was legalized, I would kick off every friday afternoon (assuming no duties the next day) with a phattie.

You already kick off every friday afternoon with a phattie, regardless of whether or not you have clinical duties the next day, sinner.

Don't you remember last saturday when you misdiagnosed a kid with Prader-Willi as "having the munchies?"

 

[MD'05]

They take urine, blood, and hair.