Radiation oncology job

[seper]

You guys both are entitled to an opinion, but RadOnc job market is characterized by secrecy and exploitation. PM me if you want details
Therefore, the more open info is posted here, the better.

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[medgator]

Got another headhunter email in my inbox talking about a practice in middle america looking for a BC and experienced RO offering pro fees and a share of technical revenues without a buy in. Jobs are still out there, there is just severe maldistribution and a mismatch between labor supply and where the jobs are.

The powers at be aren't solving anything by seeking to double the number of residency spots since the last decade though

You guys both are entitled to an opinion, but RadOnc job market is characterized by secrecy and exploitation.

While that may be true, it is solved by doing your own due diligence before joining a practice. Google and contacts in the area you are looking at are invaluable resources.

As much as I agree that there are a lot of people out there looking to take advantage of new grads, practices know what's going on when they get 100+ applications for a single job posting. I'm not exaggerating.

And we have others posting the same job over and over, while others are trying to offer shares in the technical revenue stream (supposedly). Like real estate, the job market is all about location, location, location

 

[fiji128]

There is nothing wrong in posting this stuff. Hospital CEOs and the managerial types know what these numbers are. Putting this type of information out there in a public forum is important for those considering pursuing rad onc so they can make an informed decision about what may await them after five years of residency training.

 

[deleted18755]

Got another headhunter email in my inbox talking about a practice in middle america looking for a BC and experienced RO offering pro fees and a share of technical revenues without a buy in. Jobs are still out there, there is just severe maldistribution and a mismatch between labor supply and where the jobs are.

The powers at be aren't solving anything by seeking to double the number of residency spots since the last decade though



While that may be true, it is solved by doing your own due diligence before joining a practice. Google and contacts in the area you are looking at are invaluable resources.



And we have others posting the same job over and over, while others are trying to offer shares in the technical revenue stream (supposedly). Like real estate, the job market is all about location, location, location

I get those emails all the time but they usually seem a bit too fishy or way too good to be true (even for somebody like me who has worked in grossly understaffed places in "undesirable" locations that are desperate for help). Maybe I'm being too dismissive.

Anyway does anybody know who the reputable recruiters/head hunters/agencies are or how to tell a legit email or posting from somebody trying a "bait and switch" or spam? Might be helpful to new grads or those looking for new positions.

 

[OTN]

I received an email about the same practice. Seems legit to me- I imagine the partners know in order to attract good talent for their private practice in the middle of the country, they do need to offer a competitive package. Those who want to see their pp grow and thrive know they need to bring partners on board who are going to care about the practice and stay for a long time. Good compensation goes a very, very long way in achieving this.

 

[Radz08]

I know it doesn't help a ton, but of the 4 private offers I got, 3 were for four days a week. The other practices that co-residents have been talking to are all 4 days week as well. While not ubiquitous, my impression was that they were fairly common.

Disclaimer: Neither myself or people I've talked to are looking for jobs in LA or NYC.

I received an email about the same practice. Seems legit to me- I imagine the partners know in order to attract good talent for their private practice in the middle of the country, they do need to offer a competitive package. Those who want to see their pp grow and thrive know they need to bring partners on board who are going to care about the practice and stay for a long time. Good compensation goes a very, very long way in achieving this.

Agreed. But everyone should do their due diligence to the best of their ability. There are plenty of "bait and switch" practices, and hospital admin that is less than favorable to their physicians.

For those who have run across 4 days/week practices, would you mind sharing locales? Maybe we have been looking in the wrong parts of the country. Feel free to PM me if preferred.

 

[Knucklehead]

to all considering going into rad onc or currently in residency I have a few things I have seen on the board that I would like to echo:
1) if you restrict yourself geographically you will lose the ability to negotiate other things like salary and practice type. If you are geographically limited then rad onc might not be for you or you might have to consider taking a job wherever you can and eventually take a job in your preferred area once you are more desirable. That brings me to number 2:
2) you don't have to stay at the same job forever. You can take a job for 3-5 years just to "get your lumps" then keep it moving.
3) a new grad who is not board certified is a risk. Better jobs will come to you once you are Board Certified and have 3 or ideally 5 years of experience.
4) some of the best jobs are in mid sized cities about 2 hours from a major city that you can still enjoy on weekends.
5) outside of extreme situations (like severe underpayment like <$200k/yr or phenomenal salary like >$800k/yr), compensation has less bearing on your happiness than location, practice setting, whether or not your spouse is happy, and time off. You can never buy more time.

 

[Knucklehead]

Agreed. But everyone should do their due diligence to the best of their ability. There are plenty of "bait and switch" practices, and hospital admin that is less than favorable to their physicians.

For those who have run across 4 days/week practices, would you mind sharing locales? Maybe we have been looking in the wrong parts of the country. Feel free to PM me if preferred.

I know people who work 4 days a week in CA and the Midwest. I know others who officially work 5d a week but find ways to mostly do 4 days a week

 

[OTN]

4 clinic days/week here, in Texas. To be honest, though, between tumor boards, covering SAVIs, etc...that 5th day is used rather frequently.

 

[medgator]

4 clinic days/week here, in Texas. To be honest, though, between tumor boards, covering SAVIs, etc...that 5th day is used rather frequently.

Unless there is a good understanding and similar work paradigm among all RO partners in a group where everyone agrees to it, the 4 day a week thing is tough in pp. Machines have to be covered and consults have to be seen 5 days a week (and weekends!), savi's are 5 days as well as you've mentioned.

I've only seen 3-4 day/week positions in pp groups for employees who don't want to commit to the full 5 day schedule...they end up getting straight salaried without the financial upside/decision making of pp.

 

[OTN]

Unless there is a good understanding and similar work paradigm among all RO partners in a group where everyone agrees to it, the 4 day a week thing is tough in pp. Machines have to be covered and consults have to be seen 5 days a week (and weekends!), savi's are 5 days as well as you've mentioned.

I've only seen 3-4 day/week positions in pp groups for employees who don't want to commit to the full 5 day schedule...they end up getting straight salaried without the financial upside/decision making of pp.

You're correct- I have another RO partner in my office. She has Mondays "off" currently and I have Fridays "off" - we switch every year. You're also correct in that I will see a consult anywhere, anytime, but I do have her cover my afternoon SAVI on that extra day from time to time. She gets the billing, but I get a little time to myself occasionally, which is damn near priceless.

 

[medgator]

It bears repeating as Knucklehead alluded to above.... at some point in your career, you will realize that time >>>> money. It's a different point for everyone, but that point does exist, period

 

[deleted18755]

I just heard from a friend who initially took a job he really enjoyed overall but in a location far from his family in a big city in the northeast. From what I understand he just landed his dream job in his dream location but it took literally years of networking/keeping his ear to the ground, patience, and even some "luck" (apparently somebody left abruptly because of a misfortune or divorce or something) ... the second a position opened up everybody knew he was ready, willing, and able to jump right in and he filled the job before it was advertised. Not sure how doable this would be for a new resident since you can't just wait around for who knows how many months/years for a job to open nor can you network well for that long (I also would imagine that all else equal somebody with 4-5 years experience would get hired over a new grad). However, at least for now if you are patient and flexible (and maybe willing to kiss ass) you can eventually get a job in a major city.

Otherwise there appear to be many job postings on the ASTRO site in rural areas and small Midwestern towns (I bet the current job posting in North Dakota pays very well and the patients and staff are great but not too many young Rad Oncs want to live there).

Hey, it could be worse (this was literally posted on the ASTRO Career site this morning):

Gift Shop Attendant - Lilly Pearl Retail

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The North Dakota compensation is described as "extremely competitive" in the job posting. How much are we talking here you think? Minot, North Dakota....

 

[fiji128]

The North Dakota compensation is described as "extremely competitive" in the job posting. How much are we talking here you think? Minot, North Dakota....

My sister took her first job in Minot, ND, about five years ago. Brutally cold and long winters and the real estate is randomly much more expensive then what would be expected due the fracking boom. In today's rad onc job market taking a job like this might make sense if you put in 10 years and save everything and retire instead of waiting around for years for a job that may or may not open up in an acceptable situation/location.

 

[deleted18755]

My sister took her first job in Minot, ND, about five years ago. Brutally cold and long winters and the real estate is randomly much more expensive then what would be expected due the fracking boom. In today's rad onc job market taking a job like this might make sense if you put in 10 years and save everything and retire instead of waiting around for years for a job that may or may not open up in an acceptable situation/location.

Any new grads actually considering something like this? Graduate at 30-35 years old and move to the most desperate place you can find that pays the most money with the least cost of living, keep your head down and crank out a solid 8-10 years then semi-retire by age 42-45? Sounds crazy since you have already sacrificed much of your youth but better than taking a crappy job in a more "desirable" location and finding out 5-10 years later nothing is left and your still paying off student loans.

On a brighter note there are a lot of very nice decent folk who really need doctors. I've worked in very rural locations before and honestly prefer small towns but it's not for everybody.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

All this talk about how nice rural places are bring an eerie similarity to radiology forum when the job market crashed.

I am sure it's nice out there, but I rather work in SoCal.

 

[medgator]

All this talk about how nice rural places are bring an eerie similarity to radiology forum when the job market crashed.

I am sure it's nice out there, but I rather work in SoCal.

It's actually worse IMO than radiology in terms of geographic selection.... a complete crapshoot, year to year. And FWIW, the salaries in SoCal were (are?) significantly lower to start than TX or FL despite socal cost of living for the jobs that I did actually hear about in pp, which weren't many.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

It's actually worse IMO than radiology in terms of geographic selection.... a complete crapshoot, year to year. And FWIW, the salaries in SoCal were (are?) significantly lower to start than TX or FL despite socal cost of living for the jobs that I did hear about in pp

I imagine rad onc and IR job markets are comparable, but IR have options to take mostly DR jobs if we give up on practicing IR.

IR graduate about 250 at its highest, and sounds like only 240 matched my year. We are about to have less grads as many programs converted into an integrated pathway.

 

[fiji128]

Any new grads actually considering something like this? Graduate at 30-35 years old and move to the most desperate place you can find that pays the most money with the least cost of living, keep your head down and crank out a solid 8-10 years then semi-retire by age 42-45? Sounds crazy since you have already sacrificed much of your youth but better than taking a crappy job in a more "desirable" location and finding out 5-10 years later nothing is left and your still paying off student loans.

On a brighter note there are a lot of very nice decent folk who really need doctors. I've worked in very rural locations before and honestly prefer small towns but it's not for everybody.

I'm considering doing this for that very reason, I'm currently in a top 10 metro area based off of population but after paying my full monthly student loan payment of $4,100/month (my only education debt is from private medical school and this amount would pay it off in 10 years) and living expenses there is not a whole lot left at the end of month for savings and I am currently trying to live as cheap as possible. No new car or no new mortgages so far. If I had a better more filling position I don't think I would mind this as much knowing it would all be paid off in the long run. But currently there is a dearth of quality employment options for recent graduates. With the continued increasing resident expansion, the continued push to decrease the number of fractions we give for a lot of the cases we see and the bury your head in the sand approach of our fields "leadership" I can't see how this will be improving anytime soon. I really don't want to be in a position in 10 years when potentially the opportunities in the field are even further eroded and wishing I had just bit the bullet and rode this out in the middle of nowhere for 10 more years and then be done with it. Even still, not sure I could do Minot, ND.

 

[medgator]

BC/BE Radiation Oncologist

"Long-term temporary position"

Anyone care to clarify this oxymoron for me?

 

[OTN]

BC/BE Radiation Oncologist

"Long-term temporary position"

Anyone care to clarify this oxymoron for me?

I emailed them about it, so let's see how they describe it. Sounds to me like they might as well just say "you will never make partner" but let's see what they go with.

EDIT: They replied and said it will be for 9 months.

 

[medgator]

The job market seems to get tighter and tighter every year. Do part time/4 days a week positions exist anymore? I love what I do but my family is tired of the 55-60 hour work weeks that has become the new standard. On the east coast but open to looking elsewhere for the right position.

NJ: Part-time proton babysitter in the evenings..... not my cup of tea personally.

Radiation Oncologist in New Jersey

 

[RickyScott]

Irvine CA is hiring again... Sounds like these practices are reading these threads and stocking up on the KY-jelly. There is some elasticity in the job market in the sense that I could pay 20-30% of my salary to someone else to do 80-90% of my work and probably find plenty of takers. I think a lot of people are considering this trade off now.

 

[Fpg1245]

Apparently so is Macon, Ga. Look at that salary range. It’s like they’re fishing cheap labor. Macon isn’t exactly a hotter than anything location. I can see them pulling this kind of crap in the major metros but Macon? Is it not painfully obvious to others that it doesn’t even look like demand in these hard to reach places is really all that high.

 

[radiaterMike]

So 250-400k plus incentive is cheap labor ? Even in NYC a statement like that won’t garner much sympathy.

 

[medgator]

So 250-400k plus incentive is cheap labor ? Even in NYC a statement like that won’t garner much sympathy.

I am guessing the $250K is for a new grad and the $400K is for a BC with several years of experience. Personally, I'd expect more in rural GA, then again if it's partnership track, a lower salary can be expected the first few years in any location

 

[Fpg1245]

So 250-400k plus incentive is cheap labor ? Even in NYC a statement like that won’t garner much sympathy.

Yes, considering it’s location. Plus incentive? Please. It’ll probably be quite a challenge to meet those incentive benchmarks when you’re stuck doing all the low Paying High effort cases like Gyn brachy or short course treatments like lymphoma/Peds. Also, I didn’t see partnership mentioned and was probably deliberately left out. At any rate 250K in such a location with limited information on the upside potential is a risk not worth taking. Even if we split the difference and say 325K, probably still would still give me pause. The way some of these private practices work the junior attendings. The risks you take joining these types of groups and the expectations they place on you. At 250, you’re getting them on the cheap. Not to mention the long term stability of such set ups, hospital buy outs, changing referral patterns, and the death march of declining reimbursement. In all likelihood you’ll end up working for someone else.

If there is one thing I couldn’t care less about, it’s the sympathies of NYC attendings who are making 250K. Tell yourself whatever you need to get through the day but from my perspective it’s a raw deal all around. High taxes, saturated and exploitative environment, and top it all off competing with financial gurus and hedge fund managers for desirable living space, good schools, and parking. They deserve better. It’s just too bad they don’t think so too.

 

[Sheldor]

For what its worth, from informally polling friends and colleagues across the country over the last few months I've gathered:

Coasts desirable locations, big cities: 250-300k starting
Cities of 100-500k, nice cities just in less coastal locations: 300-350k starting
Cities of around 100k, middle of country, okay cities of families, ~2 hours from major metro: 350-425k
Smaller cities of 50k or less in the middle of no-where: 450-600k

So, the question is where Macon fits into the above. So Macon has 250-400 thousand people in metro area, about an hour from Atlanta. So I'd put it in the third category, so I'd expect for a new grad to get 350-425k. 250 is obscenely low for that area. Honestly, most places in the south-east out side of major metros seems to have settled on 350k as a starting place.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[Neuronix]

Apparently so is Macon, Ga. Look at that salary range. It’s like they’re fishing cheap labor. Macon isn’t exactly a hotter than anything location. I can see them pulling this kind of crap in the major metros but Macon? Is it not painfully obvious to others that it doesn’t even look like demand in these hard to reach places is really all that high.

It's back!

Associate Radiation Oncologist

$225k/year starting salary? Where do I sign up

 

[medgator]

It's back!

Associate Radiation Oncologist

$225k/year starting salary? Where do I sign up

If it was really for the Macon position, I'd ask them for $400k starting, which is also listed

 

[RickyScott]

Probably a group that

It's back!

Associate Radiation Oncologist

$225k/year starting salary? Where do I sign up

Just trying to skim what they can off a new grad.

 

[evilbooyaa]

It's back!

Associate Radiation Oncologist

$225k/year starting salary? Where do I sign up

I imagine 225k is for the (potential) secondary Atlanta position. Hopefully they're not so clueless they think that Macon, GA will fill at 225k annual salary

 

[emt409]

Unless they get released.... happened to me once in residency

No coverage once they were out of prison

Or shanked...