Professionalism issue. How severe?

[twospadz]

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[smq123]

I had an issue recently that was of my own doing. Basically, I went to employee health at my hospital and requested a Covid test and Covid antibody test. I worked the Covid floors two months prior and plus I kept getting a lot of concern from family I am around since I work in healthcare.

When I went and asked for tests, I was denied. I was told I can only get the test if I was symptomatic or traveled to a different state. I was very frustrated at this point and did not use good judgement. I then said I did travel to a different state and I needed the Covid and Covid antibody test. I was then told to go to the clinic across the street but I would not get the Covid antibody until after I tested negative for Covid. I pushed back and said I wanted to get the Covid antibody today.

I got the Covid antibody that day. I was reported by the nurse to the admin for being rude and to being in Florida (even though I never traveled). I then talked to my program director On the phone and had to come clean that I never went to Florida. I have a upcoming meeting with her soon to discuss. How severe is this do y’all think?

Is this the first time you've been reported for "unprofessionalism"? Or is this part of a pattern of behavior?

I am a little curious as to why you were so insistent on getting the antibody test immediately. Or why you felt the need to get a COVID test 2 months after working on the COVID floors. I get that your family kept badgering you, but you're the physician - presumably you know that 2 months is well past the normal incubation time?

 

[twospadz]

Is this the first time you've been reported for "unprofessionalism"? Or is this part of a pattern of behavior?

I am a little curious as to why you were so insistent on getting the antibody test immediately. Or why you felt the need to get a COVID test 2 months after working on the COVID floors. I get that your family kept badgering you, but you're the physician - presumably you know that 2 months is well past the normal incubation time?

I’m going to visit family soon in my state. Many that are much older 60s to 80s. I just want them and me to have the piece of mind that I won’t pass it on to them.

 

[smq123]

I’m going to visit family soon in my state. Many that are much older 60s to 80s. I just want them and me to have the piece of mind that I won’t pass it on to them.

a) if they're that concerned, can you postpone your visit? Maybe now is not the best time to visit elderly relatives.

b) once employee health turned you away, did you consider going elsewhere to be tested? Like a community site run by the department of health, or a private clinic?

I am not trying to give you a hard time, but I imagine that your PD will be asking you the same questions (if not worse).

 

[twospadz]

The reason why I wanted it done at my hospital because the hospital has a rapid test that comes back in 1 hr. Some hospitals or clinics send It out and it takes 3 days for the result to come back. I didn’t want to gamble so I just wanted to go with my hospital.

It depends on postponing. I did end of getting the Covid test and Covid antibody. We will see the results.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If you've been a good resident up to now, and act contrite during the meeting you should be OK.

 

[deleted480308]

“I was stupid as hell and I’m so sorry, I’ll never do it again. I’ll gladly go apologize in person, I’m so sorry”. Don’t defend your actions, they were wrong and you were being objectively dumb about this. Yes, lying to the hospital about covid stuff to obtain testing can get you fired for being unprofessional (and arguably theft). Stop doing stuff like this

aside from that if leaving the state would have got you in trouble, how are you about to leave the state?

 

[twospadz]

“I was stupid as hell and I’m so sorry, I’ll never do it again. I’ll gladly go apologize in person, I’m so sorry”. Don’t defend your actions, they were wrong and you were being objectively dumb about this. Yes, lying to the hospital about covid stuff to obtain testing can get you fired for being unprofessional (and arguably theft). Stop doing stuff like this

aside from that if leaving the state would have got you in trouble, how are you about to leave the state?

Your right. This is What should be said.

 

[michaelrack]

aside from that if leaving the state would have got you in trouble, how are you about to leave the state?

My guess is that Florida is on a list of states he can't go to (without quarantine on return), but that the state he's going to is ok

 

[twospadz]

My guess is that Florida is on a list of states he can't go to (without quarantine on return), but that the state he's going to is ok

Yes there are few other states. We need to get a COVID test before coming back to work. I made a bad decision because I was getting a lot of pushback from the nurse. But ultimately, yea I didn't even travel out of state. I think during the meeting I will say I made a really stupid decision and I was clearly in the wrong. And also pray for mercy.

 

[smq123]

If you've been a good resident up to now, and act contrite during the meeting you should be OK.

This part is key. If this is a pattern of behavior, this might be the final straw. If this is the first offense, it might be ok.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

“I was stupid as hell and I’m so sorry, I’ll never do it again. I’ll gladly go apologize in person, I’m so sorry”. Don’t defend your actions, they were wrong and you were being objectively dumb about this. Yes, lying to the hospital about covid stuff to obtain testing can get you fired for being unprofessional (and arguably theft). Stop doing stuff like this

aside from that if leaving the state would have got you in trouble, how are you about to leave the state?

Lying about getting a COVID test results in immediate termination if you're a patient at my office.

 

[deleted480308]

Lying about getting a COVID test results in immediate termination if you're a patient at my office.

We had someone on one of my rotations lie about symptoms to get in because we were screening out respiratory, fessed up once they got to the back in front of a very elderly doctor “hey doc, know it was wrong to lie but i’ve been having shortness of breath/cough/can’t taste anything, what do i do?”

immediate end of the visit, go to the ED, you’re done here

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We had someone on one of my rotations lie about symptoms to get in because we were screening out respiratory, fessed up once they got to the back in front of a very elderly doctor “hey doc, know it was wrong to lie but i’ve been having shortness of breath/cough/can’t taste anything, what do i do?”

immediate end of the visit, go to the ED, you’re done here

Yeah if they lie about symptoms, we just make them leave. If they lie about having a negative test, fired.

 

[DrMetal]

only get the test if I was symptomatic or traveled to a different state.

So claim dyspnea and an intermittent dry cough. If you're going to lie, tell one that no one can call you out on. It's very easy to prove you weren't out of state.

 

[j4pac]

So claim dyspnea and an intermittent dry cough. If you're going to lie, tell one that no one can call you out on. It's very easy to prove you weren't out of state.

The screener seemed miffed enough to document their encounter. There is no point of trying to sophisticate the lie at this point.

 

[DrMetal]

The screener seemed miffed enough to document their encounter. There is no point of trying to sophisticate the lie at this point.

There's also no point in seeking testing, if you're asymptomatic, as I've maintained all along, and now as the CDC is starting to realize: Updated CDC guidelines now say people exposed to coronavirus may not need to be tested

 

[FrustratedFamDoc]

God I don't miss residency.

 

[rokshana]

There's also no point in seeking testing, if you're asymptomatic, as I've maintained all along, and now as the CDC is starting to realize: Updated CDC guidelines now say people exposed to coronavirus may not need to be tested

Or they are bowing down to political pressure...you really trust the cdc now?

 

[rokshana]

Admit your stupidity and apologize profusely. And promise not to do anything like this again. They want to see you own it and not come up with excuses.

 

[GoSpursGo]

To actually address the question, this is going to be as severe as your PD wants it to be. If you're well-liked, work hard, and the PD has the ability to use discretion, this could be a slap on the wrist. If you've had prior problems, or if your PD has draconian rules from GME that they need to follow, you could get in real trouble here, anywhere from probation to actual termination. Anyone saying anything else is just speculating.

 

[twospadz]

I'll update you guys how it goes. It sucks because Im sure 99% of the professions out there, this would not have been a big deal if their employer found out about lying to get a COVID. However, I know I am completely in the wrong and the standard is higher for physicians. There are no excuses. I just know Im not the first one to go through this situation.

Nurse who worked with COVID-19 patients had to lie to get herself tested

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I'll update you guys how it goes. It sucks because Im sure 99% of the professions out there, this would not have been a big deal if their employer found out about lying to get a COVID. However, I know I am completely in the wrong and the standard is higher for physicians. There are no excuses. I just know Im not the first one to go through this situation.

Nurse who worked with COVID-19 patients had to lie to get herself tested

That was 4 months ago, and in Canada.

You don't have to lie to get tested. You have to lie to get tested for free through your employer.

 

[rokshana]

I'll update you guys how it goes. It sucks because Im sure 99% of the professions out there, this would not have been a big deal if their employer found out about lying to get a COVID. However, I know I am completely in the wrong and the standard is higher for physicians. There are no excuses. I just know Im not the first one to go through this situation.

Nurse who worked with COVID-19 patients had to lie to get herself tested

See? You don’t see the issue do you?
It’s not that you wanted a covid test...it’s that you forced your employer to PAY for a covid test because you felt like you wanted one, because you couldn’t relay to your family why it’s not necessarily and caved to pressure .

As it had been said...you could have gone to an UC or another place that offers covid testing...or you could have just told your hospital you would pay for the test.

And you acted entitled when you got pissy that they wouldn’t do both tests at the same time...why? Because you weren’t patient enough to wait?

And you are not in 99% of those professions...though I’m sure many of those programs are all that keen on people misusing resources.

 

[twospadz]

See? You don’t see the issue do you?
It’s not that you wanted a covid test...it’s that you forced your employer to PAY for a covid test because you felt like you wanted one, because you couldn’t relay to your family why it’s not necessarily and caved to pressure .

As it had been said...you could have gone to an UC or another place that offers covid testing...or you could have just told your hospital you would pay for the test.

And you acted entitled when you got pissy that they wouldn’t do both tests at the same time...why? Because you weren’t patient enough to wait?

And you are not in 99% of those professions...though I’m sure many of those programs are all that keen on people misusing resources.

I said I was in the wrong. 100% wrong.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I said I was in the wrong. 100% wrong.

Yeah, but it reads like "There are no excuses... but here are some excuses that maybe apply to some other people that make me feel better about myself." If it sounds like that when you're talking to your PD, you're going to be in bigger trouble.

 

[twospadz]

That was 4 months ago, and in Canada.

You don't have to lie to get tested. You have to lie to get tested for free through your employer.

I only went through my employer because I knew the Covid test results could be done in 1 hour since the test was in house.. In other hospitals, it takes 3-5 days. Also some urgent cares don’t offer Covid antibody testing. I wasn’t doing it to get it for free.

 

[twospadz]

Yeah, but it reads like "There are no excuses... but here are some excuses that maybe apply to some other people that make me feel better about myself." If it sounds like that when you're talking to your PD, you're going to be in bigger trouble.

Yes I know.

 

[twospadz]

Well. I talked to my program director. She basically said its unacceptable behavior. But she only gave me a warning. Thanks everyone.

 

[Mass Effect]

I had an issue recently that was of my own doing. Basically, I went to employee health at my hospital and requested a Covid test and Covid antibody test. I worked the Covid floors two months prior and plus I kept getting a lot of concern from family I am around since I work in healthcare.

When I went and asked for tests, I was denied. I was told I can only get the test if I was symptomatic or traveled to a different state. I was very frustrated at this point and did not use good judgement. I then said I did travel to a different state and I needed the Covid and Covid antibody test. I was then told to go to the clinic across the street but I would not get the Covid antibody until after I tested negative for Covid. I pushed back and said I wanted to get the Covid antibody today.

I got the Covid antibody that day. I was reported by the nurse to the admin for being rude and to being in Florida (even though I never traveled). I then talked to my program director On the phone and had to come clean that I never went to Florida. I have a upcoming meeting with her soon to discuss. How severe is this do y’all think?

Yes, this is a big deal, especially for you. You're also the poster who got in trouble for using sick days erroneously (before first official day of vacation) and the poster who traveled to Costa Rica at the height of the pandemic and didn't tell your program.

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you don't seriously scale it down by about 1000, you're going to lose your job. Many program directors would terminate you for these repeat offenses.

 

[Mass Effect]

So claim dyspnea and an intermittent dry cough. If you're going to lie, tell one that no one can call you out on. It's very easy to prove you weren't out of state.

How about just not lie and follow the rules?

 

[Mass Effect]

I'll update you guys how it goes. It sucks because Im sure 99% of the professions out there, this would not have been a big deal if their employer found out about lying to get a COVID. However, I know I am completely in the wrong and the standard is higher for physicians. There are no excuses. I just know Im not the first one to go through this situation.

Nurse who worked with COVID-19 patients had to lie to get herself tested

Anytime you lie to your employer, it's a big deal, regardless of profession.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

And also pray for mercy.

It stinks but you just have to suck it up and do your best to stay off the radar screen afterwards.

 

[evilbooyaa]

This is a pattern of concerning behavior, OP, but consider yourself fortunate that you have only received a warning. Stop ****ing up.

 

[smq123]

Yes, this is a big deal, especially for you. You're also the poster who got in trouble for using sick days erroneously (before first official day of vacation) and the poster who traveled to Costa Rica at the height of the pandemic and didn't tell your program.

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you don't seriously scale it down by about 1000, you're going to lose your job. Many program directors would terminate you for these repeat offenses.

So it IS a pattern of behavior?

In that case, OP, I would thank my lucky stars that I have an incredibly kind and tolerant PD and never, ever step an inch out of line until I graduate.

 

[deleted480308]

Yes, this is a big deal, especially for you. You're also the poster who got in trouble for using sick days erroneously (before first official day of vacation) and the poster who traveled to Costa Rica at the height of the pandemic and didn't tell your program.

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you don't seriously scale it down by about 1000, you're going to lose your job. Many program directors would terminate you for these repeat offenses.

OP.....you are trying pretty hard to lose your job. Start being a flawlessly available, never whining, never lying, never late resident

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I hate to tell you this, but you (probably) got the wrong test. At my shop, we have the ultra-rapid (answer in 60 minutes), rapid (answer in 4-6 hours) and standard (answer in 18-24 hours) tests. In general, the slower tests are more sensitive, will detect lower levels of virus. So we use the ultra-rapid for patients who need urgent interventions (i.e. need to go to the cath lab). We use the rapid test for patients presenting with symptoms. We use the standard test to r/o low level infection in patients who have no symptoms. You would have been better off with the slow test, as long as you didn't need the answer today.

 

[Goro]

Well. I talked to my program director. She basically said its unacceptable behavior. But she only gave me a warning. Thanks everyone.

You dodged a bullet.

But from my years of reading this forum, you're now on people's radar. Don't F up again.

 

[twospadz]

You dodged a bullet.

But from my years of reading this forum, you're now on people's radar. Don't F up again.

I know. I won't. I have 10 more months of residency left. And Ill be in the clear.

 

[Candidate2017]

I know. I won't. I have 10 more months of residency left. And Ill be in the clear.

It's not about how much residency is left. It's about the simple rules of staying in the profession: don't lie, cheat, steal, or assault people.

Act as if your employer/medical board/judge/parole officer is watching you and ask yourself if you would do whatever you're about to do in front of them.

 

[Apollyon]

I know. I won't. I have 10 more months of residency left. And Ill be in the clear.

We are what we repetitively do. As you've put up on SDN the ill-advised things you've done, I just wonder what you haven't told us (not asking). You will be at quite a disadvantage, because you are you. That's just how it is - not an indictment, just that people are people, and, well, we are what we repetitively do. So, you gotta keep your nose especially clean. Trust me - don't trust ANYONE. Believe me, I know. Recall that, in Dante's Inferno, the lowest level of hell was reserved for the betrayers. Trust someone, and they'll burn you. Let your guard down once, and you're toast. Look at each day you don't get canned as a victory. Little bites. Good luck!

 

[dpmd]

We had someone on one of my rotations lie about symptoms to get in because we were screening out respiratory, fessed up once they got to the back in front of a very elderly doctor “hey doc, know it was wrong to lie but i’ve been having shortness of breath/cough/can’t taste anything, what do i do?”

immediate end of the visit, go to the ED, you’re done here

This would make me want to file assault charges or something I would be so mad.

 

[dpmd]

That was 4 months ago, and in Canada.

You don't have to lie to get tested. You have to lie to get tested for free through your employer.

Quick and free for no good reason at that.

 

[dpmd]

Yes, this is a big deal, especially for you. You're also the poster who got in trouble for using sick days erroneously (before first official day of vacation) and the poster who traveled to Costa Rica at the height of the pandemic and didn't tell your program.

I'm not trying to be mean, but if you don't seriously scale it down by about 1000, you're going to lose your job. Many program directors would terminate you for these repeat offenses.

I would be 100% supportive of the pd if they chose to do that. People who lie for convenience can be dangerous clinically.

 

[twospadz]

The problem has resolved. Im asking for the mods to please close this thread to any more comments since Im the OP. Thank you.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Done.