Postdoc Question

[psychologynbooks]

Hello all, I am wondering how many postdocs you recommend applying to. Does anyone know how competitive sites are (e.g., if the average person applied to 20, how many sites would they likely get)?

Thanks! Any other advice is appreciated. I am hoping to specialize in trauma/anxiety and have been focusing on sites with this focus.

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[SunshinePsych]

For me, Postdoc was trying to make sure that I was getting experience in the area(s) I wanted to specialize in. I applied to 7 Postdocs across the US narrowed down from a list of about 28 that fit my criteria. Of the 7 that I applied to, I interviewed at 5. After the interviews I withdrew my application from 2 of the 5 that I applied to. I got calls from 2 of the 3 places that I applied.

I know they changed the Postdoc process this past year for when candidates and sites can contact each other. I will say that the previous year that I went through the process, it was competitive but nothing like internship. I did interviews for my current site this year and was aware of the candidates at the location for my internship year. We were seeing 3 - 5 qualified candidates apply per position. My current location only filled 1 out of 3 of their postdocs this year and for my year they only filled 2 our of the 3.

I would stress that during your interviews with a site, take the time to interview them. The postdoc process is just as much about you and making sure you are getting what you need as well as ensuring the site is a fit for you.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Even with neuro, which tend to be the most competitive, the recommendations I commonly see/hear are to apply to perhaps 7-12 sites. Outside of neuro, as SunshinePsych mentioned, things are generally a good bit less competitive than internship in most cases. A lot depends on a person's application, though. In general, 20 should be more than enough to land multiple interviews. It's not uncommon for even some of the more desirable sites to have trouble filling more than 1 spot at times.

I would also agree with with SunshinePsych said about getting to know the postdoc site. For fellowship, there tends to be much more of a focus (from both directions) on the site determining whether they're a good fit to meet your training and career goals. This will probably feel a bit strange at first given how the internship process goes, but I imagine it'll be a refreshing change.

 

[summerbabe]

Agree with what others have posted.

I’ll add that it’s very common for postdocs to still be filing in late spring/summer, including sites that participate in the APPIC uniform notification day due to less demand for postdocs slots than internship slots.

If you’re a strong candidate, you’re more likely to be offered a position from the get go, sometimes before you’ve even submitted other applications or heard back, especially if you’re applying to a mix of uniform match day and non-match day participating sites so being prepared in advance with your list and having some prioritization of sites prior to interviews/offers can be helpful to avoid making a rash decision. Good luck!

 

[NeuroJaguar]

I would suggest you do not apply to 20 postdocs. I supervised an intern last year who applied to about that many and he really struggled with the time commitment of preparing applications and interviewing for that many sites while maintaining his caseload. It strongly (negatively) impacted his performance on internship and I think it also impacted his ability to adequately prepare for interviews and to manage his interpersonal presentation during the interviews themselves. There's no indication that you would benefit from applying to 20 sites versus 12 (in the same way that statistically, prospective interns do not benefit from applying to 20 sites compared to ~13)

 

[silverway]

I got interviews at about 50% of the sites I applied to for internship, and 100% of the sites I applied to for postdoc. I landed my top choice (although I was an alternate for the position). I applied to 12 for postdoc and feel like that was too many; many interviews were full or half days, which ate away at my PTO (I don't get professional development days) and made life very chaotic. My field was health psych, and I applied sites of varying competitiveness, all APA or APPIC member sites.

If I were to do it over, I'd apply to 8, and I wouldn't have applied to sites that were as far out of my geographical preferences or interest areas as I did. I only applied to more because I was anxious about not landing one. A lot of great sites don't fill their slot after the first round of recruitment, so even if it happens, it wouldn't be devastating.

 

[sopsyched11]

I applied to 8, interviewed at 7, and got offers from all 7. I think the numbers are less important than experiences/geographic factors on post doc (obviously excluding neuro here). Think about what you really want out of an additional training year and know that you'll probably receive interviews at most sites you apply to if you're a good fit.

 

[cara susanna]

I found it a MUCH easier process than grad school. It felt way less competitive. I think I got interviews at most of the sites I applied to, and I applied to some pretty high-falutin' post docs.

 

[foreverbull]

Hello all, I am curious how many postdocs you recommend applying to. Does anyone know how competitive sites are (e.g., if the average person applied to 20, how many sites would they likely get)?

Thanks! Any other advice is appreciated. I am hoping to specialize in trauma/anxiety and have been focusing on sites with this focus.

It really depends on where these sites are located and how many postdoc positions are open to incoming postdocs. A site taking on one postdoc will be a lot more competitive than a site with 3 positions open, typically, but that also depends on the specific site.

If you apply to mostly sites taking only one person and in highly competitive metro areas or states, you might need to apply to several.

But regardless, I’d argue that 20 is too many. If you’re looking ONLY in a state like California and you have zero experience or connections there, apply to a higher number, but still well under 20 I’d say.

I’d suggest rounding it down to 10-12 at most and spreading them out over a range of sites/states/locations and competitiveness to maximize chances.

 

[SomeGreatNotion]

I think the advice here is great though I think some of the recommended number of applications is a bit high. As a counterpoint, I applied to two research postdocs and was accepted at one. If you are applying through APPIC match, I think the numbers recommended (8-10) here are reasonable.

 

[psychologynbooks]

Thank you all so much for your advice! I am glad to hear postdocs are not as competitive as appic internships. I initially had thought of 20 because half of the sites I am interested in are well known hospitals. It’s reassuring to know that even sites with prestige aren’t as competitive as they were in internship! I will probably cut out the random private practices I put on as “safety’s.”

 

[summerbabe]

Thank you all so much for your advice! I am glad to hear postdocs are not as competitive as appic internships. I initially had thought of 20 because half of the sites I am interested in are well known hospitals. It’s reassuring to know that even sites with prestige aren’t as competitive as they were in internship! I will probably cut out the random private practices I put on as “safety’s.”

I think that's a sound plan. Since postdocs are not uniformly required for licensure, a lot of people will go into a job for the higher pay and bypass more institutional/formal training so the allure of prestige often has less pull.

One thing to consider is whether a postdoc is located in a state that requires/strongly recommends a postdoc. For example, in a state like Utah where you can apply for licensure straight out of internship, I would expect less formal postdocs and less demand. If your list of interested sites is located in states where a formal postdoc makes licensure much smoothly, there may be more competition (but still less than internship).

I would also encourage you to catalog your list of interested sites by uniform APPIC notification date and not. Since positions will be generally harder to fill, even if you come out of notification date without a position, there will almost certainly be plenty of great sites remaining that will continue to recruit.

 

[sopsyched11]

I found it a MUCH easier process than grad school. It felt way less competitive. I think I got interviews at most of the sites I applied to, and I applied to some pretty high-falutin' post docs.

same -- I was happily shocked by some of the "big name" sites that sent me offers. A super reparative experience from internship.

 

[cara susanna]

same -- I was happily shocked by some of the "big name" sites that sent me offers. A super reparative experience from internship.

I ended up doing my post doc at a site that didn't even interview me for internship, lol.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

same -- I was happily shocked by some of the "big name" sites that sent me offers. A super reparative experience from internship.

After fellowship I had two programs contact and try and recruit me for faculty positions, after their internships rejected my app bc I wasn't a Ph.D. I gleefully rejected them noting how I had considered their institutions for internship but clearly was not a fit for them, so I would have to politely decline speaking further about positions. One was in a city/state I'd never consider living long-term, while the other was a top program I would have strongly considered if not for being in negotiations with my top 2 AMCs. Life can be weird sometimes, but it usually works out okay.

 

[quickpsych]

More and more states are removing or reducing post doc requirements for licensure. So depending where you plan to get licensed (or May move to later and need licensure ) this will impact the decision.

 

[WPMO]

More and more states are removing or reducing post doc requirements for licensure. So depending where you plan to get licensed (or May move to later and need licensure ) this will impact the decision.

I know my state does not require a postdoc at this point, but I am considering the benefits of doing one anyway just to be able to specialize more, and perhaps take part in research. It is interesting to hear about how much postdocs used to be the standard though. I suppose improving internship standards have helped move the field away from the postdoc requirement?

 

[cara susanna]

I know my state does not require a postdoc at this point, but I am considering the benefits of doing one anyway just to be able to specialize more, and perhaps take part in research. It is interesting to hear about how much postdocs used to be the standard though. I suppose improving internship standards have helped move the field away from the postdoc requirement?

I personally found my post doc super helpful in preparing me for independent practice. It also gave me a chance to specialize in something, and the training I received continues to be helpful in my career.

 

[quickpsych]

I personally found my post doc super helpful in preparing me for independent practice. It also gave me a chance to specialize in something, and the training I received continues to be helpful in my career.

Well said. My state had done away with formal post docs for licensure although had kind of odd ball exceptions and rules (i.e. can count certain practicum and internship hours towards it, in my case I had to do a partial post doc to accrue hours , and in that post doc I learned quite a bit that is now serving me well in my progress in starting a small practice.

 

[psychologynbooks]

Hello all, I am currently torn on which post doc I want more and would appreciate advice

Option 1) Counseling center at an Ivy. I would do the Trauma Support Team & Eating Disorders track. You run groups, see patients, and lead workshops. A lot of crisis work and work with sexual assault/domestic violence survivors. All college students. Stipend: 68k, decent benefits

Option 2) A hospital - PTSD track. This site is split between research and therapy work. The trauma population is very broad (eg healthcare workers, abuse survivors, bereavement, veterans, etc) . Stipend: 50k, decent benefits

Work-life balance seems better at the hospital, and the clinicians were kind and laid back. However, I’m not very into research. But it looks good to have publications. Training is on prolonged exposure/cognitive processing therapy.

For the counseling center, I love young adults and am passionate about working with abuse survivors. The interviewers were kind, however the site is described as very intense. Their orientation is primarily psychodynamic. I am CBT trained. The name of the site is prestigious.

I have to decide within the next 2 weeks and keep going back and forth. Any advice would help! Which would help my career the most in the long-term?

 

[PsyDuck90]

What setting do you see yourself working in down the line? Do you see yourself more in a hospital setting or in a college setting? Do you have experience in either setting from internship or practicum? I’d be more inclined to go with the site that offers more rigorous training in trauma-focused EBPs such as PE and CPT if interest is in the trauma field, but that’s just me. The benefit of a postdoc is that it’s your last chance to be a trainee and gain skills that will be valuable when on the job market and in your career. Which site do you think will help you grow more in regards to marketable skills? Whether that’s refining ones you already have, learning new ones, or both.

 

[summerbabe]

I have to decide within the next 2 weeks and keep going back and forth. Any advice would help! Which would help my career the most in the long-term?

For long term prospects, a postdoc can hopefully give you experience/training that will help you a) clarify future career directions b) expand your competencies/skill set c) open up future doors (likely via networking). Hopefully you know which one is most important for you and proceed accordingly.

Personally, I don’t put much weight on prestige unless your future career path really values prestige (e.g., certain doors may not be open without it), which is a small minority of jobs.

I’m not sure if adding to your research CV will do you all that much good if you want clinical jobs. But do you want/need CPT or PE experience and that’s a gap in your training (although it’s always possible to get this post licensure)?

As for the college counseling center job, even though that’s a population you like, would you want to work in that setting in the future? Or would benefit from adding psychodynamic perspectives to your work?

I think there may be some biases between transferability between college populations and general populations dating back to when college students seeking counseling were more on the ‘worried well’ spectrum, which has changed significantly recently.

Whereas if you do a hospital postdoc, future employers may give it more weight since that setting is seen as more likely doing gold standard evidence based work.

Personally, I did a VA postdoc and the biggest 2 career benefits I’ve seen are lots of good recs/references & since I was able to do rotations in a TON of unique hospital-based settings, as a generalist who likes variety, it has given some extra credence to my applying for random jobs that I otherwise may not be as qualified for on paper. Good luck!

 

[foreverbull]

Several colleagues did college counseling postdocs and found it to be very difficult and burnout-level of work if they played a crisis management role. For example, one colleague was on call every Tuesday for 24 hours for the whole year. The clinician lost a lot of sleep and had intense anxiety every Tuesday evening when they left work because they were called up for emergencies late at night. They never counseled at a UCC after that. When I did CC on internship, our site would just start putting crisis walk-ins in our note/admin hours at times and it was very frustrating because our schedules were already very full.

If you want to work with eating disorders, that would be the only reason I’d go with the UCC. An Ivy site for postdoc is less relevant than the type of experience you get.

The other site will provide training in PE/CPT which is a great skill set for the future if you ever work with trauma. Even if you don’t specialize in it, it’s a great foundation. The research split also might give you some much needed downtime away from clients and an opportunity to add to your CV—which will look good regardless of whether you want research in the long term or not. Better work life balance would be nice when you’re on postdoc, as well.

But ultimately, you have to decide which training you need more for your career longterm—crisis and ED, or PTSD training along with the other considerations of burnout potential and work-life balance. And of course, the difference in pay. Some folks will weigh these factors differently.

 

[psychologynbooks]

What setting do you see yourself working in down the line? Do you see yourself more in a hospital setting or in a college setting? Do you have experience in either setting from internship or practicum? I’d be more inclined to go with the site that offers more rigorous training in trauma-focused EBPs such as PE and CPT if interest is in the trauma field, but that’s just me. The benefit of a postdoc is that it’s your last chance to be a trainee and gain skills that will be valuable when on the job market and in your career. Which site do you think will help you grow more in regards to marketable skills? Whether that’s refining ones you already have, learning new ones, or both.

These are good questions! I love the college population, but I have never worked in a hospital so maybe this would fill in a gap. Both offer great trauma training, but the hospital definitely has more of a focus on EBPs. I feel I'd grow at both. What draws me to the college site is that it's the exact population I love (age and presenting problem), but I am not psychodynamic and it seems like there's a higher risk of burnout

 

[psychologynbooks]

For long term prospects, a postdoc can hopefully give you experience/training that will help you a) clarify future career directions b) expand your competencies/skill set c) open up future doors (likely via networking). Hopefully you know which one is most important for you and proceed accordingly.

Personally, I don’t put much weight on prestige unless your future career path really values prestige (e.g., certain doors may not be open without it), which is a small minority of jobs.

I’m not sure if adding to your research CV will do you all that much good if you want clinical jobs. But do you want/need CPT or PE experience and that’s a gap in your training (although it’s always possible to get this post licensure)?

As for the college counseling center job, even though that’s a population you like, would you want to work in that setting in the future? Or would benefit from adding psychodynamic perspectives to your work?

I think there may be some biases between transferability between college populations and general populations dating back to when college students seeking counseling were more on the ‘worried well’ spectrum, which has changed significantly recently.

Whereas if you do a hospital postdoc, future employers may give it more weight since that setting is seen as more likely doing gold standard evidence based work.

Personally, I did a VA postdoc and the biggest 2 career benefits I’ve seen are lots of good recs/references & since I was able to do rotations in a TON of unique hospital-based settings, as a generalist who likes variety, it has given some extra credence to my applying for random jobs that I otherwise may not be as qualified for on paper. Good luck!

I've done a lot of trauma CPT/PE before, and I gravitate towards these approaches as well. For the counseling center, I loveee working with young adults/college students and this specific type of trauma. I am open to learning about psychodynamic interventions since all of my training is CBT based, but I also don't know if I need it. Thank you for the advice! I have thought about the hospital setting being viewed as more transferable as well since it is broader

 

[psychologynbooks]

Several colleagues did college counseling postdocs and found it to be very difficult and burnout-level of work if they played a crisis management role. For example, one colleague was on call every Tuesday for 24 hours for the whole year. The clinician lost a lot of sleep and had intense anxiety every Tuesday evening when they left work because they were called up for emergencies late at night. They never counseled at a UCC after that. When I did CC on internship, our site would just start putting crisis walk-ins in our note/admin hours at times and it was very frustrating because our schedules were already very full.

If you want to work with eating disorders, that would be the only reason I’d go with the UCC. An Ivy site for postdoc is less relevant than the type of experience you get.

The other site will provide training in PE/CPT which is a great skill set for the future if you ever work with trauma. Even if you don’t specialize in it, it’s a great foundation. The research split also might give you some much needed downtime away from clients and an opportunity to add to your CV—which will look good regardless of whether you want research in the long term or not. Better work life balance would be nice when you’re on postdoc, as well.

But ultimately, you have to decide which training you need more for your career longterm—crisis and ED, or PTSD training along with the other considerations of burnout potential and work-life balance. And of course, the difference in pay. Some folks will weigh these factors differently.

This is one of my concerns holding me back from choosing the college counseling center. It seems like as part of the trauma study team, I'd be doing a ton of crisis work and every interviewer emphasized that self-care is important. I have interest in ED's, but I also don't care to specialize. I primarily want to specialize in trauma/PTSD. Work-life balance is also something to consider, especially since I'm getting married next year and will be studying for the EPPP.

 

[summerbabe]

I love the college population, but I have never worked in a hospital so maybe this would fill in a gap. Both offer great trauma training, but the hospital definitely has more of a focus on EBPs.

I'm biased since I have been with the VA for 6+ years since internship started. Prior to internship, I didn't get hospital experience (technically I did prac at a residential program operated by the local major hospital system but that doesn't really count) and I can't recommend it enough. Even if only to figure out we don't want to work in a hospital setting in the future.

For some of us, that's also a point in our training/career development when we really start to feel like a grown-up psychologist since we are firmly rooted in an interdisciplinary medical setting around lots of other licensed professionals. It's not that standards are lower elsewhere but being in that setting helped me with needed professional development growth.

It seems like as part of the trauma study team, I'd be doing a ton of crisis work and every interviewer emphasized that self-care is important. I have interest in ED's, but I also don't care to specialize.

To be honest, that sounds like a way to rope people into doing crisis work since that need seems to be ever increasing in the college population.

I loveee working with young adults/college students and this specific type of trauma.

One way to think about postdoc is that is can be an opportunity to trial run something different. I'm guessing you already have CV items from grad school & internship that would make you qualified for jobs with this population & treatment in the future.

So working with other types of trauma and age populations might be a great opportunity as a one-off in that hospital postdoc. You might find out you like other types of trauma-related work or you might find out you really want to hone in on your original population; both data points are very valuable moving forward IMO.

And of course, the difference in pay.

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with choosing a postdoc for the pay. $15k is a lot of money especially coming out of grad school (unless CoL will suck the difference away) so if other things are fairly equal, this could be a tipping point.

 

[foreverbull]

This is one of my concerns holding me back from choosing the college counseling center. It seems like as part of the trauma study team, I'd be doing a ton of crisis work and every interviewer emphasized that self-care is important. I have interest in ED's, but I also don't care to specialize. I primarily want to specialize in trauma/PTSD. Work-life balance is also something to consider, especially since I'm getting married next year and will be studying for the EPPP.

Every staff psychologist gives lip service to self-care in UCCs but doesn't help postdocs or interns with setting boundaries for work-life balance. Trainees tend to get used as workhorses as much as possible at that stage. A ton of crisis work is a fast track to burnout for many.

Based on your interests, I'd suggest the other site, but again, you know yourself best and what is going to be most important to you.

 

[psychologynbooks]

Thanks everyone! I wound up accepting an offer at the hospital. I am happy with my choice overall The current fellow seems to love the site as well. it’ll be nice to do research again that’s not my dissertation along with clinical work!