Please help: US DO Vs. Carr. MD

[oldpro]

I am not sure what you are trying to say. I am simply saying that many students do not take the USMLE and still match into allopathic residencies. I specificially said it is recommended that you do take the USMLE, however.




Agreed. I never disputed that. In my initial post, I was arguing that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) that Carib. students have compared to DOs when dealing with more competitive allopathic residencies. However, the osteopathic students have their own residencies in specialties such as dermatology, neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery (though no rad onc. yet) that the Caribbean students lack. If a student wants to do something like dermatology in the allopathic world, it is an almost impossible match for both Caribbean students and DO students (and really very very difficult for everyone else too).

But DO students also have 100+ of their own spots in dermatology, and around 7-8 NS programs that the osteopathic students wouldn't be at a disadvantage for. They are still competitive but your degree/location doesn't put you at a disadvantage. So overall, you have a better chance of becoming a neurosurgeon or a dermatologist as a osteopathic student than you would otherwise, primarily because of the two separate pathways.

I really hope this doesn't come across as knocking the Caribbean degree. As I explained in my first post comparing the two, Caribbean degree at the Big Four is a fine pathway to being a physician but there are advantages and disadvantages to that degree (as there are if you want to do an osteopathic degree).

OK then we agree Cool

BTW I learned something by what you posted, Shrinken and I do not agree a lot but they made me think and thats good.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[McGillGrad]

The only person that can reduce your degree, whether DO or Carib MD, is you. I don't give a flying funk what DOs or American MDs think of my Carib MD. Just as they probably don't care that I can squat more weight or speak more languages, or whatever.

If you are an average student, then it does not matter if you go to Johns Hopkins, DO school or the Caribbean because you will get a mediocre residency in a mediocre specialty.

Excellent students will get excellent residencies in competitive specialties.

Unless you are George W. Bush or someone else who bought their degrees, we will be rewarded for our intelligence and work ethic. So go to where you fit in the best because comfort equals higher performance and higher performance equals more opportunities

 

[oldpro]

The only person that can reduce your degree, whether DO or Carib MD, is you. I don't give a flying funk what DOs or American MDs think of my Carib MD. Just as they probably don't care that I can squat more weight or speak more languages, or whatever.

If you are an average student, then it does not matter if you go to Johns Hopkins, DO school or the Caribbean because you will get a mediocre residency in a mediocre specialty.

Excellent students will get excellent residencies in competitive specialties.

Unless you are George W. Bush or someone else who bought their degrees, we will be rewarded for our intelligence and work ethic. So go to where you fit in the best because comfort equals higher performance and higher performance equals more opportunities

Yes of course and thats why I hate these debates posts on the MD/DO/Carib MD stuff it goes nowhere and has little worth, in the end the same thing is always said if you get accepted to a US medical school be it MD or DO then things will be easier for you and it is a better choice but some students do not or can not get accepted to a US school for one reason or another then they have choices ahead of them and one option is the Caribbean.

 

[tkim]

Believe it or not (and I know it sounds outrageous) an MD awarded in a US medical school will not be recognized 100% abroad. Maybe 99% but it's not the Universal degree most people believe it to be.

Tell us one country then, As far as I know the only barrier to practice is some kind of test or residency. I think you would love to believe this.

Answer: Singapore - graduates of only 37 US allopathic medical schools are recognized, though I think it's merely a formality for the schools to apply for recognition. No Carib or USDO whatsoever.

http://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html

 

[McGillGrad]

But you can also be caned for chewing gum in Singapore.

Good example of a logical government

Answer: Singapore - graduates of only 37 US allopathic medical schools are recognized, though I think it's merely a formality for the schools to apply for recognition. No Carib or USDO whatsoever.

http://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html

 

[tantrum]

2- If supposedly most of the IMGs that pass the USMLE (and therefore become licensed to practice in the US) are from the "big 4", how come most of the IMG physicians in this country are from countries other than the big 4? Grenada (home of SGU) comes in at #7 (at least it's top ten), and the next "big 4" (Dominica, home of Ross) comes in at #14? If most IMGs that pass the USMLE are from the big 4, wouldn't it make sense that the top 4 spots for IMGs in the US are from Dominica, Grenada, Montserrat and Saba? Heck, there are more Russian IMGs in the US than from the big 4 Caribbean schools.

Again, I have nothing against IMGs, but if you piss me off, I pull the big gun: TRUTH. Would you rather have a 100% chance of being a physician, or flip a coin with a 50% chance (and be behind foreign medical graduates from India, Mexico, Russia, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Italy, Iran (IRAN??!)...)

In presenting statistics, you have to consider the N (number of entries or applicants).
AMA considers everybody IMG and those statistics include non-US citizens.
Do you have any idea how many graduates from India, Philippines,Mexico, or Pakistan are trying to match in residencies or even taking the USMLE? The sheer volume alone is not indicative of greater success. You have to consider PERCENTAGE of graduates matching (or passing the USMLE).

 

[oldpro]

Answer: Singapore - graduates of only 37 US allopathic medical schools are recognized, though I think it's merely a formality for the schools to apply for recognition. No Carib or USDO whatsoever.

http://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html

I See so one that may but also this may just be a paperwork issue?

Thanks

 

[NewHope]

U.S.S.R. = 2007 information?

HAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!

So they haven't updated their info since at least December of 1991...lol!!! That's when "mean, lean Red machine" known as the Soviet Union fell appart. But they probably consider all of the 15 former Republics as (U.S.S.R)?

 

[Pansit]

Haha..I probably consider myself an average student and like to slack off once in a while (still pulled my 3.7 in undergrad), so because of this aspect, I would probably take the DO route...pretty much because no matter how much I end up slacking, I am pretty sure I will end up in some residency, carribbean is just a little risky...you get sick for a week and you miss two tests your in trouble. How about failing a class (through some unforseen circumstance, like trouble at home or being sick..etc), as a carrib student your in huge trouble)...so like I said, its just a little bit less risky going the DO way...not saying I will fail any classes but once you get into a DO program you have an over 90% you will be a doctor...whether is a neurosurgeon or family practice now just depends on your work ethic

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

Um. No. The examples you gave are universal and affect medical students either they be in DO or MD schools. Slacking off isn't something to be proud of, as one's achievements in undergrad is totally different in medical school. One can be a magna caume laude in undergrad yet fail in first year medical school due to that person's inability to cope with the massive information in medical school. A semester's worth of information in undergrad anatomy class is covered in 2 weeks in medical school's gross anatomy 1 course.

If you have nothing good to contribute to this thread, don't post anything at all. Ano ba ang problema mo? Alam ko pilipino ka, pero walang utok mo sa post mo dito, pare. Anong ibing mo'ng sabihin? walang utok sa medical students sa caribbean? Incorrect ka naman, dahil maraming skills yung medical students sa caribbean. Basa ka naman before mg post ka dito, dahil walang truth sa 'mo'ng post, maraming at maraming incorrektong informasyon dyan!

 

[Pansit]

Um. No. The examples you gave are universal and affect medical students either they be in DO or MD schools. Slacking off isn't something to be proud of, as one's achievements in undergrad is totally different in medical school. One can be a magna caume laude in undergrad yet fail in first year medical school due to that person's inability to cope with the massive information in medical school. A semester's worth of information in undergrad anatomy class is covered in 2 weeks in medical school's gross anatomy 1 course.

If you have nothing good to contribute to this thread, don't post anything at all. Ano ba ang problema mo? Alam ko pilipino ka, pero walang utok mo sa post mo dito, pare. Anong ibing mo'ng sabihin? walang utok sa medical students sa caribbean? Incorrect ka naman, dahil maraming skills yung medical students sa caribbean. Basa ka naman before mg post ka dito, dahil walang truth sa 'mo'ng post, maraming at maraming incorrektong informasyon dyan!

Thanks for the filipino..lol..I never said I was proud of slacking off...my version of slacking off is not studying for days at a time, my friends in undergrad sat and studied 8 hours a day...for me, slacking off was when I took a 2 hour break after class instead of going straight to the library for another 6 hours..my version of slacking off is when I went to go workout everyday or maybe just watched tv for 2 hours to watch a b-ball game...I know enough about myself to know how much it takes to learn and understand material.....

Now back to the Carribbean thing...lets say that for some unforseen circumstance you fail a class....maybe your mom got sick at home or you broke up with a significant other, or you fell behind on material and you bombed a test...no matter how smart or organized you are those things can happen...Now failing a class is pretty much a competitive residency killer...but at a US school you still will match somewhere as long as you pass...now in the Carribbean, failing a class could be the ultimate end period!...Not saying ppl from there are not smart...why would I think that?...I am saying that there is just less risk at a US school...I thought that was beyond discussion.

 

[AngryBaby]

OK, even though this thread is much more comfortable now that certain posters that like to spread misinformation are "ignored" from my view, here's some hard data for people to ponder. A caveat: I have nothing against foreign medical grads, but when people start dissing the profession I love and spreading blatant lies, I use truth and actual data (DOs have to take both the COMLEX and USMLE to be licensed...you're kidding me, right?)

Anyway, here it is:

According to the American Medical Association, the top 20 countries where IMGs come from are:

India - 19.9% (47,581)
Philippines - 8.7% (20,861)
Mexico - 5.8% (13,929)
Pakistan - 4.8% (11,330)
Dominican Republic - 3.3% (7,892)
U.S.S.R. - 2.5% (6,039)
Grenada - 2.4% (5,708)
Egypt - 2.2% (5,202)
Korea - 2.1% (4,982)
Italy - 2.1% (4,978)
China - 2.0% (4,834)
Iran - 2.0% (4,741)
Spain - 1.9% (4,570)
Dominica - 1.9% (4,501)
Germany - 1.9% (4,457)
Syria - 1.5% (3,676)
Columbia - 1.4% (3,335)
Israel 1.4% (3,260)
England- 1.4% (3,245)
Montserrat (3,111)

According to the AMA website, this information is from 2007, pretty current. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1550.html

According the the Educational Commision for Foreign Medical Graduates, the match rate for ALL IMGs in 2007 was 47%. The match rate for US citizen IMGs for the same year was 50% (yikes!).

http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/factcard.pdf

Now, most people in this forum like to tell you that statistics for IMGs are skewed because people from the big 4 pass the USMLE at high rates and therefore match at high rates compared to other countries, and that IMGs from "other" countries (i.e. non-Caribbean big 4) are the ones that are bringing down the total average.

However, how do you explain the fact that:

1- According to the ECFMG, as a US citizen going abroad for a medical education, you might as well flip a coin for your future (50% match rate?!?!)

2- If supposedly most of the IMGs that pass the USMLE (and therefore become licensed to practice in the US) are from the "big 4", how come most of the IMG physicians in this country are from countries other than the big 4? Grenada (home of SGU) comes in at #7 (at least it's top ten), and the next "big 4" (Dominica, home of Ross) comes in at #14? If most IMGs that pass the USMLE are from the big 4, wouldn't it make sense that the top 4 spots for IMGs in the US are from Dominica, Grenada, Montserrat and Saba? Heck, there are more Russian IMGs in the US than from the big 4 Caribbean schools.

Again, I have nothing against IMGs, but if you piss me off, I pull the big gun: TRUTH. Would you rather have a 100% chance of being a physician, or flip a coin with a 50% chance (and be behind foreign medical graduates from India, Mexico, Russia, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Italy, Iran (IRAN??!)...)

To the OP: choose the path that is best for your personal situation and future plans. However, be warned that a lot of the anonymous information in here and in sites such as valuemd are very biased and plain wrong. Follow the links I've provided in this thread, which come from reputable, unbiased places and make your own decision. Whatever you decide, good luck and I hope you achieve your goal.

I hate to get involved in this, but Shinken you're using this information you've gathered incorrectly. I've got a lot to study this week so I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty right now (I know, I know...). I was a borderline candidate in the US and looked long and hard at the situation in the Caribbean. Lumping the USIMG's attending the Big 4 in the Caribbean with the rest of the schools out here is like lumping a state school in Mississippi with the top 10 US schools and claiming the statistics are valid for Mississippi since it's a US school.

If this thread isn't dead by this weekend I'll weigh in a little more (I'm sure the anticipation will be killing you)

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

Thanks for the filipino..lol..I never said I was proud of slacking off...my version of slacking off is not studying for days at a time, my friends in undergrad sat and studied 8 hours a day...for me, slacking off was when I took a 2 hour break after class instead of going straight to the library for another 6 hours..my version of slacking off is when I went to go workout everyday or maybe just watched tv for 2 hours to watch a b-ball game...I know enough about myself to know how much it takes to learn and understand material.....

Now back to the Carribbean thing...lets say that for some unforseen circumstance you fail a class....maybe your mom got sick at home or you broke up with a significant other, or you fell behind on material and you bombed a test...no matter how smart or organized you are those things can happen...Now failing a class is pretty much a competitive residency killer...but at a US school you still will match somewhere as long as you pass...now in the Carribbean, failing a class could be the ultimate end period!...Not saying ppl from there are not smart...why would I think that?...I am saying that there is just less risk at a US school...I thought that was beyond discussion.

Medical students need to prioritize. Of course family is prime, I'm a Filipino, but studies are imperative and paramount to anything. I can live without a relationship, I'm 22 and I never had a relationship. You need to prioritize, specially when you actually are in med school, as for your examples, by inception, they are flawed. Medical schools in the carribbean are allopathic medical schools and teach the same material as the ones in the United States. Just because you're located outside a national border, the functions of the sternocleidomastoid, the trapezius, the inferior and superior intercostals will not differ. Biochemistry, physiology, embryology, genetics, anatomy etc will always be inherent despite where they are taught. Its the student's ability to fully comprehend the material and reiterate it during assessments and during the USMLEs.

I have relatives who are physicians and graduated from Philippine medical schools, and are fine physicians, in cardiothoracic surgery as well as in internal medicine and are preferred than their American graduate collegues (MDs and DOs). Does that mean that philippine medical schools teach better than American medical schools? No, of course not, the manner of how the physician interacts with the patient and his/her prognosis skills.

Don't look down on medical students from abroad, as they have studied their asssses off in undergrad to be in the position they are now. Have some respect, and as you said, you are considering to go into the osteopathic field, you should know the bias there are towards DOs from some MDs, so too must you consider how you act towards IMGs and FMGs.

Physicians are Physicians. The only difference is that in the end, carib graduates will have the 'M.D.' while you'll have the 'D.O.'

 

[Pansit]

Medical students need to prioritize. Of course family is prime, I'm a Filipino, but studies are imperative and paramount to anything. I can live without a relationship, I'm 22 and I never had a relationship. You need to prioritize, specially when you actually are in med school, as for your examples, by inception, they are flawed. Medical schools in the carribbean are allopathic medical schools and teach the same material as the ones in the United States. Just because you're located outside a national border, the functions of the sternocleidomastoid, the trapezius, the inferior and superior intercostals will not differ. Biochemistry, physiology, embryology, genetics, anatomy etc will always be inherent despite where they are taught. Its the student's ability to fully comprehend the material and reiterate it during assessments and during the USMLEs.

I have relatives who are physicians and graduated from Philippine medical schools, and are fine physicians, in cardiothoracic surgery as well as in internal medicine and are preferred than their American graduate collegues (MDs and DOs). Does that mean that philippine medical schools teach better than American medical schools? No, of course not, the manner of how the physician interacts with the patient and his/her prognosis skills.

Don't look down on medical students from abroad, as they have studied their asssses off in undergrad to be in the position they are now. Have some respect, and as you said, you are considering to go into the osteopathic field, you should know the bias there are towards DOs from some MDs, so too must you consider how you act towards IMGs and FMGs.

Physicians are Physicians. The only difference is that in the end, carib graduates will have the 'M.D.' while you'll have the 'D.O.'

Dude...what are you talking about...I never questioned this????? I never said anything was inferior...I only said that going to a US school carries less risk in general than if I were to go to the Carribean..try to argue that point before going off on a tangent that nobody was questioning...My PCP is a doctor from the philippines too...I dont ever question him...but do you think it would be wise for me to go to school in philippines?...no because it carries too much risk...same with carribbean albeit a much lesser risk than philippine med schools. (And by risk I am talking about matching into residency and getting a US license...not about education or curriculum or student competence.)

 

[oldpro]

(And by risk I am talking about matching into residency and getting a US license...not about education or curriculum or student competence.)

Sorry but what risk of License? If you go to the big 4 in the Caribbean or others with all 50 approval, what risk? I have been doing this for years with research and never found such only what residency I will get. (Its these kind of comments that get passed around and turned into a mountain)

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Going overseas for medicine does carry some risks with it that US students never have to face. DOs were once discriminated against as inferior to MDs or not considered true physicians but the attitude has changed. The attitude towards IMGs is still very malignant, you have to do considerably better than a US counterpart(MD or DO) on the USMLE exams to match into the same field.

You get the same education whether you go overseas or stay in the US, but the system will never you see as the same.

 

[oldpro]

Going overseas for medicine does carry some risks with it that US students never have to face. DOs were once discriminated against as inferior to MDs or not considered true physicians but the attitude has changed. The attitude towards IMGs is still very malignant, you have to do considerably better than a US counterpart(MD or DO) on the USMLE exams to match into the same field.

You get the same education whether you go overseas or stay in the US, but the system will never you see as the same.

And proof? It seems many want to post this "Difference" Yet Caribbean grads are program directors and have competitive residencies, so reality is different then this

The attitude towards IMGs is still very malignant

( only ones with real attitude is premeds really) I'm in the deep south and yet FMG/IMG Docs are welcomed and these people are the ones that the right claims are bigots, not so reality is these Docs are respected and well liked, Joe when you have spent 20+ years in medical field like I have and worked in over 8 US states as I have then you can tell us from your experience how it is because it is not as you believe per my own life experience and that is why I'm willing to argue this point so readily.

Reality is MD=MD and some residencies will take anyone who passes, they have positions unfilled and need the cheap labor a resident provides.

 

[McGillGrad]

According to the NRMP statistics, you are a liar. You should at least look up basic information before making things up and pretending like you know something.

It is not hard. Just Google "NRMP stats" and see for yourself. It only takes 30 seconds!

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

US Grad Mean step 1: 222
Independent (IMG) Mean Step 1: 220

I am assuming that you can tell which number is higher.

Going overseas for medicine does carry some risks with it that US students never have to face. DOs were once discriminated against as inferior to MDs or not considered true physicians but the attitude has changed. The attitude towards IMGs is still very malignant, you have to do considerably better than a US counterpart(MD or DO) on the USMLE exams to match into the same field.

You get the same education whether you go overseas or stay in the US, but the system will never you see as the same.

 

[McGillGrad]

In reference to the info above, those step 1 scores correspond to matched mean step 1 score for IM.

 

[AlleghenyPOD]

Dude...what are you talking about...I never questioned this????? I never said anything was inferior...I only said that going to a US school carries less risk in general than if I were to go to the Carribean..try to argue that point before going off on a tangent that nobody was questioning...My PCP is a doctor from the philippines too...I dont ever question him...but do you think it would be wise for me to go to school in philippines?...no because it carries too much risk...same with carribbean albeit a much lesser risk than philippine med schools. (And by risk I am talking about matching into residency and getting a US license...not about education or curriculum or student competence.)

Work hard, and you'll get a competent residency. Slack off and you'll fail. Simple as that.

 

[Pansit]

Sorry but what risk of License? If you go to the big 4 in the Caribbean or others with all 50 approval, what risk? I have been doing this for years with research and never found such only what residency I will get. (Its these kind of comments that get passed around and turned into a mountain)

Are you seriously arguing that going to the Carribean carries the same risk than a US school...??? Living in a 3rd world country for at least 2 years is a big enough risk right there....95% of US students (MD/DO) graduate and get into a residency...Attrition rates are big enough of a risk factor as well...

 

[Pansit]

Work hard, and you'll get a competent residency. Slack off and you'll fail. Simple as that.

I agree...

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Are you seriously arguing that going to the Carribean carries the same risk than a US school...??? Living in a 3rd world country for at least 2 years is a big enough risk right there....95% of US students (MD/DO) graduate and get into a residency...Attrition rates are big enough of a risk factor as well...

93% of US grads matched
70% of DO grads matched
50% of US IMG's matched
45% of non-US IMG's matched

The last three groups ignore prematch spots.

This argument could go on forever. Basically:

1. Going to a US allopathic school gives you the best choices / options in the match, and the best match rate.
2. Whether you go to a Carib school or a DO school, if you do well you are likely to secure a spot in the US. Graduates from both have obtained great residencies, fellowships, and jobs.
3. The quality of your medical education, regardless of whether you go to a US Allo, US DO, or international school is more likely related to the effort you put into it rather than the school.
4. Board scores are likely weighed heavily in IMG and DO applications to allopathic programs. Although the USMLE remains the standard, increasing numbers of allopathic programs are willing to accept the COMLEX.
5. DO's appear to match better than US IMG's. However, the match rate of the Big 4 Carib schools is likely to be better than the average, so may be the same 70%.
6. DO's do have the osteopathic match in addition to the allopathic match, which is a clear benefit for competitive specialty matching. For example, there are 11 Diag Rad programs in the AOA match this year. A DO can try to match into those in the AOA match, and then try again in the NRMP match if that fails. This assumes that the DO applicant is willing to match in the AOA match and hence be withdrawn from the NRMP match -- if the DO applicant wants an allo IM spot, there is no benefit.
7. US IMG's at the big 4 Carib schools can get licensed in all 50 states. DO's can run into trouble in a few states if they pursue allopathic training (although there are ways to address this)
8. Attrition happens at all schools, although is probably less in US Allo programs. Attrition is dictated by the student, not the program.

 

[oldpro]

Are you seriously arguing that going to the Carribean carries the same risk than a US school...??? Living in a 3rd world country for at least 2 years is a big enough risk right there....95% of US students (MD/DO) graduate and get into a residency...Attrition rates are big enough of a risk factor as well...

Where did I post this? I said:

Originally Posted by oldpro View Post
Sorry but what risk of License? If you go to the big 4 in the Caribbean or others with all 50 approval, what risk? I have been doing this for years with research and never found such only what residency I will get.

You quoted it!!!! I said the License is not a problem with the Big 4.

Also the Caribbean Matching is just not with the MATCH

50% of US IMG's matched
45% of non-US IMG's matched

there is a considerable amount of outside the match happing as well and there are no real numbers for this so I cannot agree that it is as low as posted. I believe the numbers are more like 60 to 70% maybe even higher.

 

[McGillGrad]

From now on (concerning this topic) I yield the floor to the gentleman from the great state of crazy avatar dude

I am just going to cut and paste this response from now on.

93% of US grads matched
70% of DO grads matched
50% of US IMG's matched
45% of non-US IMG's matched

The last three groups ignore prematch spots.

This argument could go on forever. Basically:

1. Going to a US allopathic school gives you the best choices / options in the match, and the best match rate.
2. Whether you go to a Carib school or a DO school, if you do well you are likely to secure a spot in the US. Graduates from both have obtained great residencies, fellowships, and jobs.
3. The quality of your medical education, regardless of whether you go to a US Allo, US DO, or international school is more likely related to the effort you put into it rather than the school.
4. Board scores are likely weighed heavily in IMG and DO applications to allopathic programs. Although the USMLE remains the standard, increasing numbers of allopathic programs are willing to accept the COMLEX.
5. DO's appear to match better than US IMG's. However, the match rate of the Big 4 Carib schools is likely to be better than the average, so may be the same 70%.
6. DO's do have the osteopathic match in addition to the allopathic match, which is a clear benefit for competitive specialty matching. For example, there are 11 Diag Rad programs in the AOA match this year. A DO can try to match into those in the AOA match, and then try again in the NRMP match if that fails. This assumes that the DO applicant is willing to match in the AOA match and hence be withdrawn from the NRMP match -- if the DO applicant wants an allo IM spot, there is no benefit.
7. US IMG's at the big 4 Carib schools can get licensed in all 50 states. DO's can run into trouble in a few states if they pursue allopathic training (although there are ways to address this)
8. Attrition happens at all schools, although is probably less in US Allo programs. Attrition is dictated by the student, not the program.

 

[oldpro]

From now on (concerning this topic) I yield the floor to the gentleman from the great state of crazy avatar dude

I am just going to cut and paste this response from now on.

Yea I know I have OCD at times

(btw if we had a day and all that posted were to be in a room together, uh I'd be out sick that day LOL.............)

 

[apoptos]

A mod should sticky this thread it's been really helpful...

 

[oldpro]

WHy Be so OCD on this stuff just look:

I started by giving decent advice:

study and retake the MCAT IMHO Caribbean is ok though.

DO if you want ( I hate these DO vers Carib stuff)

Really you should work your tail off and do a better MCAT!

Then this stuff gets posted after by non caribbean students, people who have never set foot in a caribbean school and attended:

A DO is better to have than an "MD" from a Caribbean school. Obviously if you have an MD from a North American school it is another matter.

Caribbean MD should be your last resort.

Moderators, is there any way that when someone is in your ignore list, their "quotes" don't appear when someone else quotes them?

That kind of defeats the purpose of the ignore list.

Again, I have nothing against IMGs, but if you piss me off, I pull the big gun: TRUTH. Would you rather have a 100% chance of being a physician, or flip a coin with a 50% chance (and be behind foreign medical graduates from India, Mexico, Russia, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Italy, Iran (IRAN??!)...)

This poster get's pissed off if the source of this "Truth" is questioned and debated.

(And by risk I am talking about matching into residency and getting a US license...not about education or curriculum or student competence.)

Going overseas for medicine does carry some risks with it that US students never have to face. DOs were once discriminated against as inferior to MDs or not considered true physicians but the attitude has changed. The attitude towards IMGs is still very malignant, you have to do considerably better than a US counterpart(MD or DO) on the USMLE exams to match into the same field.

93% of US grads matched
70% of DO grads matched
50% of US IMG's matched
45% of non-US IMG's matched

The last three groups ignore prematch spots.

(only post by a non Caribbean student to bring up the prematch outside match issue, it does happen more then they would like so the % are off by 10 to 20% at least and the numbers stand out IMO so you see 50% only not 60 to 70%)



Other things were posted but these are the ones that PISS me off, they are biased and even the last one is a little on the bias side.
I feel like anything including very old data and data that has not been verified as well as just plain opinions are used as facts and to promote an agenda against Caribbean students.

So yea I'm defensive. I accept verifiable facts and post things like outside the match as things unverified but they exist so you can make a guess and opinion on what it means, I have always thought the % was 10% or greater but it could always be lower like 5% or higher like 20 to 30% the problem is a study has not been done with a large graduation pool. Until a good study is done I will continue to use the 10 to 20% figure, since it does not seem there are over 2000 Caribbean MD's out there just working at car washes, where is the out cry?

I do see a lot of Bias by Non Caribbean students, and this was just in this thread just think about what it has been like all these years here on SDN?

 

[mrjbb]

You all want to talk about risk? Ok. It doesn't matter where you go the risk IS there.

Risk is determined mostly by you. If you go to the Caribbean and you arrive with a "I'm going to fail" attitude (which is common) then you WILL fail...

Same goes for ALL US grads.. If they arrive at medical school with a failing attitude then they will undoubtedly fail.

If you go to the Caribbean you'll have to adapt to a lot more than if you would've remained in the US, thus making it harder to prevail. However, most of it depends on how receptive you are to change.

There are A LOT of foreign schools that don't properly prepare you for the U.S. ... BUT thats because their main goal's to produce fully functioning physicians in THEIR COUNTRY....

Let me ask you a question.. If you CRUSH the Steps and gain above average scores even when compared to US grads, then do you believe the school matters one bit?

IMO, NO... Therefore even if there exist "prejudice" residency directors, that dislike IMG's, there do exist residency programs that could care less about the school you went to, and ONLY about the scores you've gained; as well as the performance you've displayed....

You want to match into a competitive residency; then earn it.... Don't blame it on your school or the Caribbean.. Like I've seen many do...

 

[Pansit]

You all want to talk about risk? Ok. It doesn't matter where you go the risk IS there.

Risk is determined mostly by you. If you go to the Caribbean and you arrive with a "I'm going to fail" attitude (which is common) then you WILL fail...

Same goes for ALL US grads.. If they arrive at medical school with a failing attitude then they will undoubtedly fail.

If you go to the Caribbean you'll have to adapt to a lot more than if you would've remained in the US, thus making it harder to prevail. However, most of it depends on how receptive you are to change.

There are A LOT of foreign schools that don't properly prepare you for the U.S. ... BUT thats because their main goal's to produce fully functioning physicians in THEIR COUNTRY....

Let me ask you a question.. If you CRUSH the Steps and gain above average scores even when compared to US grads, then do you believe the school matters one bit?

IMO, NO... Therefore even if there exist "prejudice" residency directors, that dislike IMG's, there do exist residency programs that could care less about the school you went to, and ONLY about the scores you've gained; as well as the performance you've displayed....

You want to match into a competitive residency; then earn it.... Don't blame it on your school or the Caribbean.. Like I've seen many do...

This is a moot argument. When you assess risk, you look at average, not the extremes. How many ppl "crush" the USMLE's....nobody on these forums who are asking questions will have no idea how they will do. The Majority of people who pass, will end up to right around the average. My argument was that being average on the boards coming from the carribbean has alot more risk than someone average from the US schools. Almost everyone who pass in the US, will get into a residency...even the average DO students get into their average DO residency...the problem I think with the carribbean is that the average student from there will have to work harder to make sure they match. And the majority of students will be around the average....there is no going beyond that.

It's easy now to say, once I get down there I going to study 10 hours a day, get 98's on all my tests, crush the usmle and get me that residency I covet....it's not that easy once you get into the thick of things...a chosen few will stand out and rise above everyone, but the majority will again fall in the average student range...

 

[oldpro]

This is a moot argument. When you assess risk, you look at average, not the extremes. How many ppl "crush" the USMLE's....nobody on these forums who are asking questions will have no idea how they will do. The Majority of people who pass, will end up to right around the average. My argument was that being average on the boards coming from the carribbean has alot more risk than someone average from the US schools. Almost everyone who pass in the US, will get into a residency...even the average DO students get into their average DO residency...the problem I think with the carribbean is that the average student from there will have to work harder to make sure they match.

yes basically I agree with this, but average scores from Caribbean: contacts and interviews count a lot.

 

[BuMasters]

look below

 

[BuMasters]

Hello,
I am currently applying to US medical schools (both DO and MD) with a GPA of 3.93 cum science, 3.94 cum, and 25 MCAT. I have already been accepted to some DO schools but have not heard from MD schools here. Should I be apply to carribbean MD schools? The only reason I prefer MD over DO is that MDs can practice anywhere whereas DOs are limited. I plan to serve my mother country some day with my medical degree which won't be possible with a DO degree as of now. Any suggestions. THANKS

How many times have you taken your mcat? If this is your second time? If it is, you need to ask yourself if you can get above a 30. If you can--then take it over. But if you think you might not be able to--don't risk wasting time. And since you are struggling with your mcat not your gpa—don’t do a SMP.

Your gpa is impressive, and I know you’ll do well in the Caribbean—and might even excel in your boards because it is more “academic based” then “tricky mcat style based”

About DO vs MD, it is a personal preference. I'll be honest...I had the same problem. My mcat was low, and my gpa was average (not as high as yours though). Though I was very interested in the way DOs' approach medicine, I did not want to be questioned "what is a DO" the rest of my life--so I choose MD. If you can live your whole life being called a DO--great. You are labeled as a Carribean student for 4 years, then when you get matched, you are just referred as an MD. So many people who practice come from med schools from around the world (india, england, mexico, etc)—many that have treated us. If you are a good doctor--that's what you will be remembered for--not "oh that doctor came from the Caribbean."

The good thing about DO than Caribbean MD is you are guaranteed to be an American doctor.

But about DO limitations—will you be practicing outside of the US?? Do you want to work for doctors without borders or work at developing countries? If you see that you want to, go for the carribean. If you don’t—then don’t bring up that limitation when you make a pro and con list because that is not something you are planning to do.

 

[BuMasters]

Sigh, I hate having to make this post, but as a prospective student who is looking at both options, here are my thoughts, broken down into bits:

Prestige:

This is of variable importance to people. The fact is that D.O. is not well known yet, and some do consider it a second tier medical education (again, that is the perception, not the reality). They also might consider Caribbean a second tier medical education, however it is much easier to 'hide' a degree from a Caribbean than you can a D.O. No patient asks where you went to school, but they might see the initials behind your name. If you are going to be a DO and are afraid of any shame you may feel, or don't want to answer questions about your degree - save yourself the future hassle and don't do it. The degree will be with you for the rest of your life, and it's not worth feeling regret over it.

Overseas:

If your plan, in the future, is to practice overseas: get an MD. Generally, it is very hard to practice in foreign countries anyway, and having a D.O. will make it harder. Many countries now recognize the US D.O. degree, but not all, and while D.O. are rare here, there are pretty much unknown everywhere else (e.g., they are known as chiropractors). So to avoid this, I would recommend a carib. MD.

Opportunity:

If you want to go into a hard to get into specialty, go D.O. Carib and DO both will be at a disadvantage when applying to allopathic specialties, but DOs have their own residencies and fellowships. One of the schools I might be going to (PCOM) has a very good Neurosurgery program, and there are also a lot of dermatology programs that D.O. students can match into (though some specialties, such as Rad. Onc has no DO option). As a D.O., you will have more options for specialties in the future, and will have two chances. Either way, you aren't going to be unemployed no matter which way you go.


Right now, my only choice is a D.O. as I need to stay close to my father who is suffering from cancer, but if he gets better I will have a decision to make. I think I would personally still choose D.O. since I don't give a crap what people say to me and I don't plan on practicing anywhere outside US, and I am also looking at some DO/PhD programs which I cannot find in the carib, but that is very specific to my circumstances and career goals. For you, the mileage may vary. Instead of making a blanket statement, you need to ask yourself what you want from the degree. Look at the above three criteria (and there are other criteria as well) and decide where you come out the most ahead.

nicely put. sorry abut your father.

 

[drusso]

I've read MD vs DO debates on the Internet for over 10 years. One thing that is consistently missing from these debates among applicants is how osteopathic medicine's role as a social movement in health care plays into an applicant's decision-making progress. Instead, the analysis is crudely "instrumental" in terms of opportunity, prestige, residency match rates, etc despite the fact that most people agree the one's own career advancement is a function of one's individual effort regardless of the type of degree earned.

So, does anyone considering Caribbean MD versus US DO ever stop to think about what *kind* of medicine they want to practice? What sort of values and worldviews toward health care and the healing arts they want to absorb and project onto their patients? That's really where the differences lie: The basic and applied sciences are the same---anatomy, biochem, pathology, etc. But, the institutional missions and priorities vary tremendously---osteopathic schools focused on primary care, musculoskeletal, and preventive medicine. Historically, Caribbean medical schools and osteopathic medical schools emerged for very different reasons; their training priorities are different, etc. Does this ever enter the equation?

 

[oldpro]

I've read MD vs DO debates on the Internet for over 10 years. One thing that is consistently missing from these debates among applicants is how osteopathic medicine's role as a social movement in health care plays into an applicant's decision-making progress. Instead,
......................................................................................
institutional missions and priorities vary tremendously---osteopathic schools focused on primary care, musculoskeletal, and preventive medicine. Historically, Caribbean medical schools and osteopathic medical schools emerged for very different reasons; their training priorities are different, etc. Does this ever enter the equation?

You are one of the first to bring this up in a long time, everytime I try to on SDN, a ton of premeds and DO students try to tell me this does not matter even though I calmly admitted I did not want to study OM I was just about told I was a fool for thinking that OM and Philosophy mattered, even in DO residencies. I would then tell of a story or two from Other DO residents who where posting on the net about trouble in MD residencies due to different treatment philosophies and in one case a DO in a MD residency knew they not believe in Rib Lift manipulation for SOB was told to seek another residency after they did one without clearing it with the attending. These things "Do not matter" I'm told and I'm anti DO for even posting these things and opinions of my own. I hate it when free thought it squashed and we all must march to the same tune, but then again I'm an American.

 

[AngryBaby]

I've read MD vs DO debates on the Internet for over 10 years. One thing that is consistently missing from these debates among applicants is how osteopathic medicine's role as a social movement in health care plays into an applicant's decision-making progress. Instead, the analysis is crudely "instrumental" in terms of opportunity, prestige, residency match rates, etc despite the fact that most people agree the one's own career advancement is a function of one's individual effort regardless of the type of degree earned.

So, does anyone considering Caribbean MD versus US DO ever stop to think about what *kind* of medicine they want to practice? What sort of values and worldviews toward health care and the healing arts they want to absorb and project onto their patients? That's really where the differences lie: The basic and applied sciences are the same---anatomy, biochem, pathology, etc. But, the institutional missions and priorities vary tremendously---osteopathic schools focused on primary care, musculoskeletal, and preventive medicine. Historically, Caribbean medical schools and osteopathic medical schools emerged for very different reasons; their training priorities are different, etc. Does this ever enter the equation?

Well part of that is because, as a group, osteopathic physicians can't decide if they are different or virtually identical to allopathic physicians. Old-timers usually want to be "separate but equal" (and frequently, in my limited experience, superior) while the younger generation of DO's minimize the differences between themselves and the traditional allopathic education and practice.

I interviewed at a top-tier DO school and sat for 2 interviews during the day. The first DO spent the entire time making sure I knew how DO's were different and unique while my 2nd interviewer said "it's basically the same thing" when I asked how he would describe the differences between DO and MD.

I don't believe you can make a blanket statement and say that the philosophical differences between DO/MD (Caribbean or otherwise) should enter into the equation because not even the DO's can agree on what they are/aren't.

 

[gng930]

OK, even though this thread is much more comfortable now that certain posters that like to spread misinformation are "ignored" from my view, here's some hard data for people to ponder. A caveat: I have nothing against foreign medical grads, but when people start dissing the profession I love and spreading blatant lies, I use truth and actual data (DOs have to take both the COMLEX and USMLE to be licensed...you're kidding me, right?)

Anyway, here it is:

According to the American Medical Association, the top 20 countries where IMGs come from are:

India - 19.9% (47,581)
Philippines - 8.7% (20,861)
Mexico - 5.8% (13,929)
Pakistan - 4.8% (11,330)
Dominican Republic - 3.3% (7,892)
U.S.S.R. - 2.5% (6,039)
Grenada - 2.4% (5,708)
Egypt - 2.2% (5,202)
Korea - 2.1% (4,982)
Italy - 2.1% (4,978)
China - 2.0% (4,834)
Iran - 2.0% (4,741)
Spain - 1.9% (4,570)
Dominica - 1.9% (4,501)
Germany - 1.9% (4,457)
Syria - 1.5% (3,676)
Columbia - 1.4% (3,335)
Israel 1.4% (3,260)
England- 1.4% (3,245)
Montserrat (3,111)

According to the AMA website, this information is from 2007, pretty current. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1550.html

According the the Educational Commision for Foreign Medical Graduates, the match rate for ALL IMGs in 2007 was 47%. The match rate for US citizen IMGs for the same year was 50% (yikes!).

http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/factcard.pdf

Now, most people in this forum like to tell you that statistics for IMGs are skewed because people from the big 4 pass the USMLE at high rates and therefore match at high rates compared to other countries, and that IMGs from "other" countries (i.e. non-Caribbean big 4) are the ones that are bringing down the total average.

However, how do you explain the fact that:

1- According to the ECFMG, as a US citizen going abroad for a medical education, you might as well flip a coin for your future (50% match rate?!?!)

2- If supposedly most of the IMGs that pass the USMLE (and therefore become licensed to practice in the US) are from the "big 4", how come most of the IMG physicians in this country are from countries other than the big 4? Grenada (home of SGU) comes in at #7 (at least it's top ten), and the next "big 4" (Dominica, home of Ross) comes in at #14? If most IMGs that pass the USMLE are from the big 4, wouldn't it make sense that the top 4 spots for IMGs in the US are from Dominica, Grenada, Montserrat and Saba? Heck, there are more Russian IMGs in the US than from the big 4 Caribbean schools.

Again, I have nothing against IMGs, but if you piss me off, I pull the big gun: TRUTH. Would you rather have a 100% chance of being a physician, or flip a coin with a 50% chance (and be behind foreign medical graduates from India, Mexico, Russia, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Italy, Iran (IRAN??!)...)

To the OP: choose the path that is best for your personal situation and future plans. However, be warned that a lot of the anonymous information in here and in sites such as valuemd are very biased and plain wrong. Follow the links I've provided in this thread, which come from reputable, unbiased places and make your own decision. Whatever you decide, good luck and I hope you achieve your goal.

Is this guy for real? Argument #1 is blatant propaganda. "Flip a coin"? Are you saying that the match process is a lottery, not based on merit and achievement? Newsflash: YOU HAVE TO WORK HARD TO BECOME A DOCTOR.

Argument #2 completely ignores the fact that there are simply more medical schools and therefore applicants coming from countries like India, Pakistan, and USSR. Remember that a percentage involves a denominator as well.

 

[Shinken]

Is this guy for real? Argument #1 is blatant propaganda. "Flip a coin"? Are you saying that the match process is a lottery, not based on merit and achievement? Newsflash: YOU HAVE TO WORK HARD TO BECOME A DOCTOR.

Argument #2 completely ignores the fact that there are simply more medical schools and therefore applicants coming from countries like India, Pakistan, and USSR. Remember that a percentage involves a denominator as well.

Did you not see the attachment from the ECFMG? Here it is again. Open it and read it:

http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/factcard.pdf

Yes, there's a 50% match rate for the majority of FMGs not lucky enough to sign outside the match. Working hard is not the question, merit is not the question. I'm simply providing the statistic compiled by the ECFMG. Same as flipping a coin (that's a figure of speech. If your board scores are great then your chances -of course- are better than average, but 50% is similar to flipping a coin hence the expression).

Argument #2 is not ignoring anything. That was the WHOLE POINT. Everyone here says how your chances are greater coming from the big 3 and how the "rest" of the FMGs are bringing the average down. However, the vast majority of matched docs from other countries are from countries other than the big 3. If the vast majority of people that match are supposedly from the big 3, how come the vast majority of FMGs practicing in the US aren not from the big 3?

I don't know. Maybe I'm way off, maybe not. Look at the ECFMG numbers and the rest of the data and you decide how to interpret them.

 

[drusso]

Well part of that is because, as a group, osteopathic physicians can't decide if they are different or virtually identical to allopathic physicians. Old-timers usually want to be "separate but equal" (and frequently, in my limited experience, superior) while the younger generation of DO's minimize the differences between themselves and the traditional allopathic education and practice.

Interesting. What I don't understand is that if Caribbean schools have indeed decided they're *with* US allopathic institutions, why haven't they elected to pursue LCME accreditation? Some Canadian schools are LCME-accredited despite the fact that they are in Canada so geography can't be the answer. If the Caribbean schools have embraced the training missions and priorities of the US allopathic schools, why not just become LCME accredited? The LCME would accredit any school that meets the criteria and has the $$$. There must be more to the story.

Osteopathic schools decided decades ago to develop and implement their own accreditation standards that the the US Government and Department of Education recognizes as LCME equivalent. There has long been talk of accrediting osteopathic schools overseas--Isreal, China, Costa Rica, and the UAE are frequently mentioned as first possible contenders. I wonder how many US applicants would consider attending an AOA-accredited off-shore DO school. That would be another interesting variable in the equation:

USMD vs USDO vs IMGMD vs IMGDO

 

[oldpro]

Facts are that this does not include outside the match this is only

National Resident Matching Program

But the above poster continues to ignor the plain facts ( this is just something he and I will never agree on), the real facts that outside the match is at least 10% (I believe higher like 20%) so that raises the lowest figure to 60% match rate but I think its way higher like 70% IMO. Hey reality is reality!

Just my Opinion.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

What I don't understand is that if Caribbean schools have indeed decided they're *with* US allopathic institutions, why haven't they elected to pursue LCME accreditation?

From the LCME's website:

The LCME does not accredit educational programs leading to the M.D. degree in institutions that are chartered outside the United States and Canada, nor programs provided in foreign countries by U.S. or Canadian medical schools. The LCME does provide information and consultation about medical education standards and the process of accreditation to M.D.-granting programs that are located outside of the United States and Canada, at their request.

 

[Shinken]

I've read MD vs DO debates on the Internet for over 10 years. One thing that is consistently missing from these debates among applicants is how osteopathic medicine's role as a social movement in health care plays into an applicant's decision-making progress. Instead, the analysis is crudely "instrumental" in terms of opportunity, prestige, residency match rates, etc despite the fact that most people agree the one's own career advancement is a function of one's individual effort regardless of the type of degree earned.

So, does anyone considering Caribbean MD versus US DO ever stop to think about what *kind* of medicine they want to practice? What sort of values and worldviews toward health care and the healing arts they want to absorb and project onto their patients? That's really where the differences lie: The basic and applied sciences are the same---anatomy, biochem, pathology, etc. But, the institutional missions and priorities vary tremendously---osteopathic schools focused on primary care, musculoskeletal, and preventive medicine. Historically, Caribbean medical schools and osteopathic medical schools emerged for very different reasons; their training priorities are different, etc. Does this ever enter the equation?

Good points. However it's unfortunate but the vast majority of people do not stop to think about what kind of medicine they want ot practice. That's why they ask "Caribbean MD or DO?" The question itself should be a bit contradictory.

Sometimes I wish that ACGME residencies did NOT accept DOs. That way, only those people that truly wanted to become DOs would attend DO school (no more disgruntled MD wannabes in DO schools). It was a very sad day when half my classmates responded "yes" to a survey that asked if the DO degree should be changed to MDO. That makes no sense to me. If you want to be an MD, go to MD school. If you want to be a DO, go to DO school. It should be a simple concept, but apparently it's not.

 

[ByronOrpheus]

Sounds like the old timers realize that they went into DO because they liked DO ideals.

Now, people use the DO as an easier alternative to to allopathic residencies. Just like the Caribbean kids.

Explains all of the pissing contests.


--Orpheus--

 

[oldpro]

Sounds like the old timers realize that they went into DO because they liked DO ideals.

Now, people use the DO as an easier alternative to to allopathic residencies. Just like the Caribbean kids.

Explains all of the pissing contests.


--Orpheus--

As tough as it is to get into Medical School in the US, I think DO schools should not accept people Clearly not embracing DO. DO should not be second or last choice.

 

[ByronOrpheus]

Impossible. People lie all of the time about everything. It is like trying to separate people who want to become a doctor to make money from those who want to help.

As tough as it is to get into Medical School in the US, I think DO schools should not accept people Clearly not embracing DO. DO should not be second or last choice.

 

[Shinken]

Sounds like the old timers realize that they went into DO because they liked DO ideals.

Now, people use the DO as an easier alternative to to allopathic residencies. Just like the Caribbean kids.

Explains all of the pissing contests.


--Orpheus--

Bingo! Back in the day when DOs were second class citizens only people that truly felt the DO path was a better path to medicine became DOs.

Today, MD and DO are the same. Same drugs, same specilaties, same stethoscopes, same shiny red cars. A blessing and a curse.

As someone once said, Osteopathic medicine is a victim of its own success.

 

[oldpro]

Impossible. People lie all of the time about everything. It is like trying to separate people who want to become a doctor to make money from those who want to help.

Since when should we forget about Character, morals and honesty when picking people for medical school? I think times will change back to these values its a cycle if look back in history.

 

[gtleeee]

Retake the MCAT and get into a US MD school. You would have to be an idiot not to try one more time before facing the shame of being a DO or the problems with a Carib MD.

Sounds like a comment one would hear from a overly elitist Ivy League type, not an offshore student. But quick research reveals most of his other posts are just as inane.

 

[Shinken]

Sounds like a comment one would hear from a overly elitist Ivy League type, not an offshore student. But quick research reveals most of his other posts are just as inane.

Yup. The Ignore User option is great. I never thought I'd use it, but boy it does make a difference.