Physician Salary Figures

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PL198 said:
tell me this is sarcasm
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I made that statement because previous posters commented that HSA's would not be viable because people cannot be trusted to save money to put in an HSA on a large enough scale. Mad Jack's response sounded like he perhaps agreed with this sentiment, and that the solution was to have employers make the deposit into the HSA as a benefit system, and not give people a choice, sort of like employer healthcare benefits.

Personally I may or may not believe people can be trusted to manage their HSA's appropriately but I was just running with the thought process/idea proposed by @Mad Jack and had a few questions.
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bonedrone14 said:
Op...I was waffling between military vs loans before I started also. I picked loans and every day have been glad I didn't pick the mil route...no offense to anyone who is serving now, just different strokes for different folks. I felt like in the end both choices chain you to a debt (either $ or time) but the loans gave me a little more freedom.

A good resource is the white coat investors blog...maybe check that out.
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I was in the same boat. I preferred the flexibility, however, it seems that the military folks can have a nice lifestyle, some very good benefits etc. Also, better protection in terms of job security it seems.

PGG would be a good guy to comment on this stuff.
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
He got into it with deuist and made some derogatory remarks about his military service. I'm assuming there were PMs to go along with it.
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Read his post again, must have been some PM's. There was nothing particularly offensive about his post, just his normal abrasive self.
 
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put your scalpel down first tho
 
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Will I get banned? I'm just an innocent dentist looking at all the healthcare forums.


Also mega belated happy new years everyone.
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
My understanding in the new platform:

Bright blue = probation
Account on hold = temporary suspension
Account on hold + ban pic +/- strikethrough = banned (WS said the strikethrough depends on which particular mechanism they use to ban someone)
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so basically the moderators are going Game of Thrones on everyone






cool. Given my weird/sadistic humor I wonder if that makes me Ramsay Snow
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
My understanding in the new platform:

Bright blue = probation
Account on hold = temporary suspension
Account on hold + ban pic +/- strikethrough = banned (WS said the strikethrough depends on which particular mechanism they use to ban someone)
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I feel like some of dermvisers spirit has taken refuge in you
 
PL198 said:
I feel like some of dermvisers spirit has taken refuge in you
Click to expand...
tumblr_inline_n323wtE4dJ1raj7d8.gif
 
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Well I'd look at it this way, more Physicians are in the 1% than Chief Executive Officers of companies, and finance guys.
27.2% of Doctors are in the 1%
Well the ones in private practice, and then 17.2% of the Doctors in hospitals. If I read this correctly.. Oh, and 20.7% of Doctors in health services, 19% of academic, 13.3% in other
(http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/newsgraphics/2012/0115-one-percent-occupations/)
Yeah basically, one of the most financially successful class of people.
(FYI the average vehicle price of a millionaire is 30k, so no being rich is not about having a Ferrari)
Anyways with that pointed out, Medicine is one of the top paying, and most rewarding professions financially. Thing is you have to know how to manage money.

I don't understand at all how guys earning 400k take home are basically upper middle class according to their networth.. It's like they never heard of stocks, real estate, and investing in start ups.

Not sure exactly how accurate; But this is a state map
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/1-percent-in-each-state-map_n_6548222.html

Of course being in the 1% federally is A LOT, and I mean A LOT different

Also networth could put you in the 1%
 
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Doctors really should be paid less but given free education. It solves this problem of increasing physician salaries.
 
Well I'd look at it this way, more Physicians are in the 1% than Chief Executive Officers of companies, and finance guys.
27.2% of Doctors are in the 1%
Well the ones in private practice, and then 17.2% of the Doctors in hospitals. If I read this correctly.. Oh, and 20.7% of Doctors in health services, 19% of academic, 13.3% in other
Click to expand...

There may be a lot of doctors in the "top 1%" but they are under-represented in terms of their overall numbers in the population. They are also in the bottom of that 1%, while the CEOs are in the top tenth or hundreth of that 1%.

The "top 1%" is a convenient slogan, but the people with the real money, who are rich in the way that most of us would understand the term, are those in the top 1/2%, more specifically the top 1/10%. Professionals, such as physicians, will sometimes make it into the top 1%, but have to save a lot of their income and economize in order to be able to retire in the same middle to upper middle class lifestyle that they are accustomed to.

For a more complete discussion of the "1%" I recommend that everyone read these articles, especially the first one.
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/phildem...ble-tragedy-of-income-inequality-among-the-1/

Medicine is one of the top paying, and most rewarding professions financially. Thing is you have to know how to manage money.
I don't understand at all how guys earning 400k take home are basically upper middle class according to their networth..
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You are correct, to some extent, in that economizing, saving, and smart investing will lead to a comfortable retirement, but the fact is that most physicians are not making 400k a year, and even for the ones who do, it can be quite a struggle to have enough to retire on, especially if you live in an expensive are like the desirable parts of NY or California.

Specifically, after taxes, 400k will leave you with about 280k. A decent home in a nice area ( not the most expensive ) in nice parts of Manhattan or California will cost you 2 million plus. That will be a mortgage of about 7k a month, real estate taxes of about 30k a year. Utilities and home insurance will be at least another 1000 a month. Life insurance and disabiltiy insurance will be at least another 1000 a month. Add in private schools at 25k for elementary school, and 40 to 45k a year for high school, not to mention college, and there's 67,000 left to pay off student loans and buy food and gas, clothing, etc. Your numbers will be different if you live in say, Kentucky, where a mansion might cost 250k, and of course, you don't have to send your kids to private school, but you also will most likely earn 200k or 250, not 400k. But my point is, that's why not all doctors have savings commensurate with the 1%, or with their incomes. Also, don't forget that you will work for 10 or 15 fewer years than most other professionals.

It's like they never heard of stocks, real estate, and investing in start ups
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Most medical students probably don't know much, or anything at all, about stocks and investing. They should learn now, before they earn money and waste it. You are correct, that if they saved and were careful and avoided shady "financial advisors", and stupid investments in dubious schemes that they hear about, they would do better.

If you are recommending investing in start-ups, you unfortunately don't know much about investing either. 9/10 fail completely, of the remaining 10%, some struggle on breaking even, some get bought out for no profit, and a very few become successful. They are not all Facebook or Google. We think start-ups are a good idea from reading about the successful ones. That's "survivor bias"; you only hear about the winners. Just like everyone comes back from Las Vegas a winner, and yet, somehow, the casinos still make money.
Warren Buffet doesn't invest in start-ups.

The way to make money in the stock market is to buy a low cost S & P 500 index fund or EFT through Vanguard or Fidelity, and hold it forever. Period.
 
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bc65 said:
There may be a lot of doctors in the "top 1%" but they are under-represented in terms of their overall numbers in the population. They are also in the bottom of that 1%, while the CEOs are in the top tenth or hundreth of that 1%.

The "top 1%" is a convenient slogan, but the people with the real money, who are rich in the way that most of us would understand the term, are those in the top 1/2%, more specifically the top 1/10%. Professionals, such as physicians, will sometimes make it into the top 1%, but have to save a lot of their income and economize in order to be able to retire in the same middle to upper middle class lifestyle that they are accustomed to.

For a more complete discussion of the "1%" I recommend that everyone read these articles, especially the first one.
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/phildem...ble-tragedy-of-income-inequality-among-the-1/



You are correct, to some extent, in that economizing, saving, and smart investing will lead to a comfortable retirement, but the fact is that most physicians are not making 400k a year, and even for the ones who do, it can be quite a struggle to have enough to retire on, especially if you live in an expensive are like the desirable parts of NY or California.

Specifically, after taxes, 400k will leave you with about 280k. A decent home in a nice area ( not the most expensive ) in nice parts of Manhattan or California will cost you 2 million plus. That will be a mortgage of about 7k a month, real estate taxes of about 30k a year. Utilities and home insurance will be at least another 1000 a month. Life insurance and disabiltiy insurance will be at least another 1000 a month. Add in private schools at 25k for elementary school, and 40 to 45k a year for high school, not to mention college, and there's 67,000 left to pay off student loans and buy food and gas, clothing, etc. Your numbers will be different if you live in say, Kentucky, where a mansion might cost 250k, and of course, you don't have to send your kids to private school, but you also will most likely earn 200k or 250, not 400k. But my point is, that's why not all doctors have savings commensurate with the 1%, or with their incomes. Also, don't forget that you will work for 10 or 15 fewer years than most other professionals.



Most medical students probably don't know much, or anything at all, about stocks and investing. They should learn now, before they earn money and waste it. You are correct, that if they saved and were careful and avoided shady "financial advisors", and stupid investments in dubious schemes that they hear about, they would do better.

If you are recommending investing in start-ups, you unfortunately don't know much about investing either. 9/10 fail completely, of the remaining 10%, some struggle on breaking even, some get bought out for no profit, and a very few become successful. They are not all Facebook or Google. We think start-ups are a good idea from reading about the successful ones. That's "survivor bias"; you only hear about the winners. Just like everyone comes back from Las Vegas a winner, and yet, somehow, the casinos still make money.
Warren Buffet doesn't invest in start-ups.

The way to make money in the stock market is to buy a low cost S & P 500 index fund or EFT through Vanguard or Fidelity, and hold it forever. Period.
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Fair point, however many specialist do gross at least 300k. Surgeons will probably gross more..
It all depends on what you do, and since I'm not a Physician I can't really say. What I will say is though the Doctors in my local town, many of the have enormous newly built mansions on some sizable land.
Of course I must also point out that many of these Doctors are boomers, and have been in practice when many of the new medical school graduates were in diapers.
Yes I agree, however it's all about living below your means. There are people who get by with less in NYC, also I honestly don't see the point in retiring in NYC. You work there, okay but who would retire there? That's just nuts.

As for investments, what I mean is loaning money out to new business for a share of their business/royalties. Basically buying companies; This is perhaps the most high risk though, but who invests money they can't afford to lose?

Anyways I don't get one thing;
So these guys start out as Residents making what 51k, 35k or so gross?
Then suddenly they graduate, go on to make 250k or so net and their spending rises to 200k or nearly 250k..
I never got that..
If they continue to live like the did in residency for at least one more year, say they continue the 35k full amount for living 215k a year in savings, they do it for at least 3 more years 645k.

Also the NYC example is on the very rare side.
In your average city, 250k a year net is a VERY, VERY generous income..
Your average American earns 250k GROSS in like 5 years. So yeah.. But then again, they don't have 300k in loans. That's a point to realize.

Also another thing:
You're technically only missing out on 4 years of post-college income. Your average college graduate starts out making 43k a year, from what I have seen a resident will generally make 50k a year.
Then your income rises crazy high after 4-7 years of post-medical school training.(completion of residency)


Overall I have to say this:
If you don't try to keep up with the status quo, you won't have to worry a lot financially.

Crap, you can get phone service unlimited call, text, and data for only 25 bucks a month... There is a company out there. ;) They use verizon, and sprint towers too.. :O
You can substitute that cable bill with a 7 buck netflix package, or hulu or what ever..
You can downscale your home
Drive a more modest car, you don't really need a new model Mercedes which you will probably lease anyways.


Now I'm really, really going out there.. However building your own house is a VERY, VERY economical choice. Just got to know how to frame, and all.. Pretty simple, a header on top, some 2 by 4 or something 16 in apart..
Can't remember the entire thing. However I could build a nice home for 30k myself. Hopefully building codes aren't super tight.... lol


BTW speaking of Warren Buffet, just look at him.. He is a billionaire, and yet he is more modest than some of these upper class Americans who drive latest model LEASED Audi's, and what not.
Also on the other hand, another prominent investor Bin Talal prince of Saudi invested in a technically sort of failing bank.. And made a fortune..

It's about hitting the jackpot at the right time. Buy a stock at the right time, sell it at the right time. That's how you get rich haha..

Ultimately though.. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
You'll have a larger net worth working out of a city in the west like Pittsburgh, or the South like Dallas, but less in places like San Francisco or Boston.
 
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Aloft085 said:
All of those countries also had monarchies when we did not. Should we have joined them then as well? Popular does not equal right. I would prefer to not give the government any more control over my life than they already have. If it wasn't for all of the people intent on some form of government-run healthcare, we could perhaps get some needed reforms through Congress.
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This statement is slightly ironic because there is actually more oversight and restrictions imposed by insurance companies and other bureaucratic overseers in the US system than is imposed on Canadian physicians by the government system. So instead of the government controlling aspects of your work, the insurance companies do... and rest assured, when they're in the game to make a profit, the iron-clad grip they have on your balls is much tighter than the government's.

If you're going to make an argument for a private system that is entirely legitimate, and I agree that it has it's benefits. It should not however, rely on a faulty premise about losing control over your scope of practice.
 
Dr. Sticks: I agree with the main point of your post, which is that doctors should not act rich, and should save more.
Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for details on this strategy.

I do disagree with several of your incidental comments.

many specialist do gross at least 300k. Surgeons will probably gross more..
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True, but most physicians won't be specialists.

I honestly don't see the point in retiring in NYC
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That's a debatable point. I can tell you, though, that it can be a great place to be retired. Restaurants, museums, concerts, plays, half price tickets, and no driving needed. Great health care options. Elevators to your apartment, no stairs, for when ou are older.

you can get phone service unlimited call, text, and data for only 25 bucks a month... There is a company out there. ;) They use verizon, and sprint towers too.. :O
You can substitute that cable bill with a 7 buck netflix package, or hulu or what ever..
You can downscale your home
Drive a more modest car
Click to expand...

Absolutely true; I agree completely. I droped cable and have over the air, about 50 channels, plus Netflix for $8. However, if you want cable, the $100 a month won't make the difference between a comfortable retirement and homelessness.

who invests money they can't afford to lose
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Stupid doctors invest money in risky investments they can't afford to lose. This is why doctors have less money than expected. See my advice in the previous post for investment advice. Go to the Vanguard website and read "why index funds" for details. Also, "Personal Finance for Dummies by Eric Tyson.

building your own house is a VERY, VERY economical choice
Click to expand...

Not really. While buying a fixer upper on a great piece of land, and rebuilding later when you have more money, can be a great strategy, there are huge costs in building a house. It's a painful, long process. You have the cost of the interest on the construction loan, you will need to move out and pay rent elsewhere, and you many marriages are derailed by home remodeling projects. Keep in mind that the extra expense and time involved in building the house is included in the cost of having someone do it for you. When you tally up all the costs, you will break even.

However I could build a nice home for 30k myself. Hopefully building codes aren't super tight
Click to expand...

That's silly. A house is $150-500 a square foot, and you get what you pay for. Codes are super tight, and you'll never get it approved if you're not a contractor who knows what he's doing. Most important, if you build the house, you will be working as a contractor, not a physician. It's silly to do work that others will do for less than you would make as a physician. If you want to build houses, skip medicine and be a contractor. Unless you enjoy mowing the lawn, you should have someone else do it while you're doing surgery.

Buy a stock at the right time, sell it at the right time. That's how you get rich
Click to expand...

But no one knows what stocks will do, and professional stock pickers usually underperform the S&P 500 index fund, hence my advice above.

Bin Talal prince of Saudi invested in a technically sort of failing bank.. And made a fortune..
Click to expand...

Anecdotal survivor bias. See above.

So these guys start out as Residents making what 51k, 35k or so gross?
Then suddenly they graduate, go on to make 250k or so net and their spending rises to 200k or nearly 250k..
I never got that
Click to expand...

This is worth discussing. You are absolutely correct that physicians spend more once they start earning an attending salary.
The main reason is this: if you are willing to live on $50,000 a year, then you don't need to go to medical school. Just get an easier job, with fewer hours and less responsibility, which will pay you 50 or 60 k a year (of course, I'm ignoring for the moment the fact that you just might want to be a physician regardless of income) . But if you end up making 200k a year or more, you will see where the money goes. Now, you can read The Millionaire Next Door and the other books in that series and learn what you should NOT spend your money on, but there are things that you will want to spend money on, and a major one is children's education, and a nice ( not palatial) house, neither of which you can afford on 50k a year. A lot of extra money will go towards taxes, and then your biggest expense will be saving for retirement, and paying off your loans. Just do the math.
 
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Dr.Sticks said:
Fair point, however many specialist do gross at least 300k. Surgeons will probably gross more..
It all depends on what you do, and since I'm not a Physician I can't really say. What I will say is though the Doctors in my local town, many of the have enormous newly built mansions on some sizable land.
Of course I must also point out that many of these Doctors are boomers, and have been in practice when many of the new medical school graduates were in diapers.
Yes I agree, however it's all about living below your means. There are people who get by with less in NYC, also I honestly don't see the point in retiring in NYC. You work there, okay but who would retire there? That's just nuts.

As for investments, what I mean is loaning money out to new business for a share of their business/royalties. Basically buying companies; This is perhaps the most high risk though, but who invests money they can't afford to lose?

Anyways I don't get one thing;
So these guys start out as Residents making what 51k, 35k or so gross?
Then suddenly they graduate, go on to make 250k or so net and their spending rises to 200k or nearly 250k..
I never got that..
If they continue to live like the did in residency for at least one more year, say they continue the 35k full amount for living 215k a year in savings, they do it for at least 3 more years 645k.

Also the NYC example is on the very rare side.
In your average city, 250k a year net is a VERY, VERY generous income..
Your average American earns 250k GROSS in like 5 years. So yeah.. But then again, they don't have 300k in loans. That's a point to realize.

Also another thing:
You're technically only missing out on 4 years of post-college income. Your average college graduate starts out making 43k a year, from what I have seen a resident will generally make 50k a year.
Then your income rises crazy high after 4-7 years of post-medical school training.(completion of residency)


Overall I have to say this:
If you don't try to keep up with the status quo, you won't have to worry a lot financially.

Crap, you can get phone service unlimited call, text, and data for only 25 bucks a month... There is a company out there. ;) They use verizon, and sprint towers too.. :O
You can substitute that cable bill with a 7 buck netflix package, or hulu or what ever..
You can downscale your home
Drive a more modest car, you don't really need a new model Mercedes which you will probably lease anyways.


Now I'm really, really going out there.. However building your own house is a VERY, VERY economical choice. Just got to know how to frame, and all.. Pretty simple, a header on top, some 2 by 4 or something 16 in apart..
Can't remember the entire thing. However I could build a nice home for 30k myself. Hopefully building codes aren't super tight.... lol


BTW speaking of Warren Buffet, just look at him.. He is a billionaire, and yet he is more modest than some of these upper class Americans who drive latest model LEASED Audi's, and what not.
Also on the other hand, another prominent investor Bin Talal prince of Saudi invested in a technically sort of failing bank.. And made a fortune..

It's about hitting the jackpot at the right time. Buy a stock at the right time, sell it at the right time. That's how you get rich haha..

Ultimately though.. LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
You'll have a larger net worth working out of a city in the west like Pittsburgh, or the South like Dallas, but less in places like San Francisco or Boston.
Click to expand...

brb building my own house really quick...just gotta pick up some stuff from home depot
 
bc65 said:
There may be a lot of doctors in the "top 1%" but they are under-represented in terms of their overall numbers in the population. They are also in the bottom of that 1%, while the CEOs are in the top tenth or hundreth of that 1%.


Specifically, after taxes, 400k will leave you with about 280k. A decent home in a nice area ( not the most expensive ) in nice parts of Manhattan or California will cost you 2 million plus.
Click to expand...

really really good post, this should be somehow a sticky.

One minor tidbit I would like to add, can't speak for Manhattan (maybe fancymylotus knows) but you can find a decent home in a nice area of CA for 800k-1 million. I know its a lot (heck thats why I moved to Arizona till I can buy a new home back in CA) but 2 million is rare and not the norm in CA. Of course, nice area is subjective but I'm guessing based on your posts, are a place where you can sleep without waking up to gunshots at 2 AM (been there, survived that).

Also compared to med school students, people in finance/top dogs in corporate law dont have the severe students loans that a lot of med schools students face. When I found out my cousin and two of my classmates got either fullride or halfride scholarships to USC Gould Law School, I was surprised law schools could even give that much to a good number of students.
 
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you can find a decent home in a nice area of CA for 800k-1 million
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I was referring to the nice ( but not the most expensive ) areas of LA, the San Francisco Bay area, and San Diego.
A 1500 foot 3 bedrooom townhouse in Sunnyvale, in Silicon Valley, is 900k. A house is 1.5, but it needs work. Mind you, I'm not talking about Palo Alto, Menlo Park. or Atherton. In some areas a 3500 square foot house is 6 million. A one bedroom apartment in a nice building in a nice part of Manhattan is about 1 million, and a 2 bedroom over 1.5 million. No view, not the fanciest address.

people in finance/top dogs in corporate law dont have the severe students loans that a lot of med schools students face. When I found out my cousin and two of my classmates got either fullride or halfride scholarships to USC Gould Law School, I was surprised law schools could even give that much to a good number of students
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Not everyone gets a scholarship to law school. And med schools give scholarships as well. Law schools are particularly interested in boosting their rankings, and GPA and LSAT scores are used to rank the schools, so they are eager to give scholarships to attract students who would otherwise go to better schools. But law school tuitions are about the same as med school tuitions, although only for 3 years, but when they graduate many (?most ?) law students won't have jobs. USC is not a top 14 school, and the employment prospects for the graduates, especially if not in the top of the class, is not great. It's also considered a regional school, and will not place well outside of the LA area. Also, many law scholarships are based on the student placing in the top part of the class ( the exact rank varies ) and many won't keep their scholarships. So don't envy them. Law school is a bit of a scam these days, unless you're in a top 14 school.
 
bc65 said:
Dr. Sticks: I agree with the main point of your post, which is that doctors should not act rich, and should save more.
Read "The Millionaire Next Door" for details on this strategy.

I do disagree with several of your incidental comments.



True, but most physicians won't be specialists.



That's a debatable point. I can tell you, though, that it can be a great place to be retired. Restaurants, museums, concerts, plays, half price tickets, and no driving needed. Great health care options. Elevators to your apartment, no stairs, for when ou are older.



Absolutely true; I agree completely. I droped cable and have over the air, about 50 channels, plus Netflix for $8. However, if you want cable, the $100 a month won't make the difference between a comfortable retirement and homelessness.



Stupid doctors invest money in risky investments they can't afford to lose. This is why doctors have less money than expected. See my advice in the previous post for investment advice. Go to the Vanguard website and read "why index funds" for details. Also, "Personal Finance for Dummies by Eric Tyson.



Not really. While buying a fixer upper on a great piece of land, and rebuilding later when you have more money, can be a great strategy, there are huge costs in building a house. It's a painful, long process. You have the cost of the interest on the construction loan, you will need to move out and pay rent elsewhere, and you many marriages are derailed by home remodeling projects. Keep in mind that the extra expense and time involved in building the house is included in the cost of having someone do it for you. When you tally up all the costs, you will break even.



That's silly. A house is $150-500 a square foot, and you get what you pay for. Codes are super tight, and you'll never get it approved if you're not a contractor who knows what he's doing. Most important, if you build the house, you will be working as a contractor, not a physician. It's silly to do work that others will do for less than you would make as a physician. If you want to build houses, skip medicine and be a contractor. Unless you enjoy mowing the lawn, you should have someone else do it while you're doing surgery.



But no one knows what stocks will do, and professional stock pickers usually underperform the S&P 500 index fund, hence my advice above.



Anecdotal survivor bias. See above.



This is worth discussing. You are absolutely correct that physicians spend more once they start earning an attending salary.
The main reason is this: if you are willing to live on $50,000 a year, then you don't need to go to medical school. Just get an easier job, with fewer hours and less responsibility, which will pay you 50 or 60 k a year (of course, I'm ignoring for the moment the fact that you just might want to be a physician regardless of income) . But if you end up making 200k a year or more, you will see where the money goes. Now, you can read The Millionaire Next Door and the other books in that series and learn what you should NOT spend your money on, but there are things that you will want to spend money on, and a major one is children's education, and a nice ( not palatial) house, neither of which you can afford on 50k a year. A lot of extra money will go towards taxes, and then your biggest expense will be saving for retirement, and paying off your loans. Just do the math.
Click to expand...

2: Depends on if you're a city person, I couldn't imagine dealing with all that noise.. haha
3: Generally your average American isn't rich because they think liabilities are investments, so the statement stands for most Americans.
4:Getting rich is all about risks. There is an art to risk taking, master that you can master investments.
5:I don't know about anecdotal, Bin Talal is a very successful investor and there are statistics to back it up. He is a bit stupid though with his spending, he bought a freaking custom designed airbus.. That was STUPID
Then he apparently sold it?? Odd
6
As for the rest;
It is not silly at all, I know what I'm talking about. Building a house isn't hard, provided you can do basic math and learn to read a blue print and use tools..
I'll give you an example;
This guy build this cabin for under 2k
That's evidence..
This isn't verifiable, but I know another guy who built a nice a country ranch on a lot of land for under 30k..
Depending on your state/how rural the area is it won't be hard to get a permit and all. You might not even need a permit.
Oh, and these houses are far, far, far more superior than those mass produced McMansions.
Heck, this lady with no contractor experience built her own log cabin in the country

But hey if you're super lazy, you could turn a shed into a very, very nice home.

My career choice: Hahaha
I've thought about it all man, from Computer Programming to Oil Drilling in bloody North Dakota..
I always end up coming back to the idea of going to Medical school. I'm totally not in it for the money... It's just the only thing I can really see myself doing.
Well my second option would be to be a cattle rancher out west who makes millions.. But those days are long gone.. Western Water wars are here, hello!!!

Okay so I'll show you some math.
Let's say you make 250k net a year
That is 20,833 a month for spending/saving
A 3k a month mortgage, 2k a month student loan repayment, 2k utilities, 5k living(food, entertainment, etc)
13k a month goes right there.
You now have 7833 left.. BTW average private school tuition is not 45k, it's about 15k a year in my state for HS.
If you pay monthly(i have no idea how this crap is billed) it is 1250.. 3 kids would cost 3750 a month on average
But I'll round it to 4k.. You just saved 3833 a month..
And have potential to save 45996 a year a little over 1.14 million in 25 years.
(I'm giving insane costs here by the way)

And guess what, these costs are no where near realistic.. NOPE!
Who in their bloody minds spends 5k for living costs? Or takes out a freaking 3k a month mortgage? Or has 2k in utility costs??
Seriously 250k a year is enough to retire in 30 years.

Of course one must also take into account that not many doctors make 500k gross, which is what you'll need for a 250k or so net.

150-200k would be a more proper net.
My point would still stand though, provided the person in question is not stupid with money.

I'm familiar with millionaire next door, average price of car 30k, modest home, largest spending would be the education of their children.
They put money in retirement/children college fund or more investments over buying a liability..
Most of them are self made
They don't spend money like stupid.

Oh and to the person with the home depot comment, Home Depot is a terrible place to buy lumber.
 
bc65 said:
I was referring to the nice ( but not the most expensive ) areas of LA, the San Francisco Bay area, and San Diego.
A 1500 foot 3 bedrooom townhouse in Sunnyvale, in Silicon Valley, is 900k. A house is 1.5, but it needs work. Mind you, I'm not talking about Palo Alto, Menlo Park. or Atherton. In some areas a 3500 square foot house is 6 million. A one bedroom apartment in a nice building in a nice part of Manhattan is about 1 million, and a 2 bedroom over 1.5 million. No view, not the fanciest address.



Not everyone gets a scholarship to law school. And med schools give scholarships as well. Law schools are particularly interested in boosting their rankings, and GPA and LSAT scores are used to rank the schools, so they are eager to give scholarships to attract students who would otherwise go to better schools. But law school tuitions are about the same as med school tuitions, although only for 3 years, but when they graduate many (?most ?) law students won't have jobs. USC is not a top 14 school, and the employment prospects for the graduates, especially if not in the top of the class, is not great. It's also considered a regional school, and will not place well outside of the LA area. Also, many law scholarships are based on the student placing in the top part of the class ( the exact rank varies ) and many won't keep their scholarships. So don't envy them. Law school is a bit of a scam these days, unless you're in a top 14 school.
Click to expand...

good points, as you mentioned, USC isnt a T-14 but I've heard its employment prospects in the SoCal region are good enough to get a corporate law position with good pay. Of course, the question becomes to those lawyers, do you want to work in LA, many dont. I know top 14 law schools dont hand out scholarships to everyone but I know of very very few dental students ever receiving full-ride or half-ride scholarships (I wish I certainly had one when i went).

Maybe its just me, but I've noticed millenials (though myself being a millenial) like to complain a lot. My fiance and I always want to live in LA because our interests and sports teams are there but we know we dont have the money right to buy a proper condo (we're too lazy to clean a big house lol). I'm in Tucson now and some newly graduated dentists/physician complain about the lack of stuff to do in Tucson. Well thats the price you pay for that higher pay raise and lower cost of living. Cant have the best of both worlds (ok maybe San Diego and Austin come to mind)
 
The $30k house was a good laugh.
Maybe you can live in a modified cargo box and make a path to an outhouse, but 30k won't buy you anything that even the most modestly successful middle class family will be happy to call home.
I've spent more on landscaping, and I save a lot of $$.
I think the foundation and floor of my solarium may have approached what you think you can build a house for.
 
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IlDestriero said:
The $30k house was a good laugh.
Maybe you can live in a modified cargo box and make a path to an outhouse, but 30k won't buy you anything that even the most modestly successful middle class family will be happy to call home.
I've spent more on landscaping, and I save a lot of $$.
I think the foundation and floor of my solarium may have approached what you think you can build a house for.
Click to expand...

My friend actually bought a house for 30k but he is spending almost as much renovating it. It is also a few streets into the border between the white people neighborhood and the hood so there's that
 
Psai said:
My friend actually bought a house for 30k but he is spending almost as much renovating it. It is also a few streets into the border between the white people neighborhood and the hood so there's that
Click to expand...
Oh no...
 
From what I've know from physicians I have met IRL, most of the survey information is highly fabricated. Maybe it's because I came from an area that was "underserved" and therefore the doctors could make more than the average, but many that would disclose that info made WELL above the average. Granted they were also older physicians (been practicing 15-20+ years) and some were in PP, but they made bank, their kids drove top-end vehicles, their daughters wore handbags that cost well over a grand, and they lived in the nicest neighborhood in town.
 
famoussquamous said:
From what I've know from physicians I have met IRL, most of the survey information is highly fabricated. Maybe it's because I came from an area that was "underserved" and therefore the doctors could make more than the average, but many that would disclose that info made WELL above the average. Granted they were also older physicians (been practicing 15-20+ years) and some were in PP, but they made bank, their kids drove top-end vehicles, their daughters wore handbags that cost well over a grand, and they lived in the nicest neighborhood in town.
Click to expand...

what? these surveys under-represent if anything. because the studs kicking ass and taking names don't fill out income surveys, but the people who think they don't make enough, love to
 
PL198 said:
what? these surveys under-represent if anything. because the studs kicking ass and taking names don't fill out income surveys, but the people who think they don't make enough, love to
Click to expand...

I've actually heard that a lot of Residents actually respond to those surveys in order to fudge the numbers, as well as fellows and those working part time (residents are still technically MDs and therefore can fill out those surveys). I've also heard that when they do respond, they always post what they make after tax/overhead/malpractice. Plus those surveys don't take into account signing bonuses, benefits, 401k, incentives, paid vacation, etc.
 
famoussquamous said:
I've actually heard that a lot of Residents actually respond to those surveys in order to fudge the numbers, as well as fellows and those working part time (residents are still technically MDs and therefore can fill out those surveys). I've also heard that when they do respond, they always post what they make after tax/overhead/malpractice. Plus those surveys don't take into account signing bonuses, benefits, 401k, incentives, paid vacation, etc.
Click to expand...
right and thus they are under-representative, exactly what I said.
 
PL198 said:
right and thus they are under-representative, exactly what I said.
Click to expand...


I think people don't like telling the truth about it because it'd just cause more people to go into medicine for the wrong reasons. Pretty much every doctor I know IRL is rich, but on sdn most doctors are barely middle class and can't even buy food that isn't ramen.
 
famoussquamous said:
I think people don't like telling the truth about it because it'd just cause more people to go into medicine for the wrong reasons. Pretty much every doctor I know IRL is rich, but on sdn most doctors are barely middle class and can't even buy food that isn't ramen.
Click to expand...

I think it is very unlikely that physicians manipulate salary surveys in sole hopes of dissuading premeds from entering the field.
 
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God I really can't believe that I was that stupid just a few years ago. The conspiracy theories that you guys come up with are insane. I mean how conceited do you have to be to believe that physicians are manipulating data to trick premeds? No one thinks about you ever
 
Psai said:
My friend actually bought a house for 30k but he is spending almost as much renovating it. It is also a few streets into the border between the white people neighborhood and the hood so there's that
Click to expand...
wtf
 
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