Physician Salary Figures

[Aloft085]

Good evening everyone,

I'm an older guy starting medical school in the fall, and I'm weighing a few different financial options for medical school (such as military vs loans). I'm attempting to forecast average earnings vs debt repayment over time, and I'm just curious as to what the general consensus is on the accuracy of salary information from websites such as Medscape and Profiles? Obviously those figures do not include the cost of malpractice insurance and taxes, but do they otherwise capture the full picture of physician compensation? Are there other significant costs that are not being accounted for?

Any additional financial information or advice that you have is also welcome. Thank you for your time.

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[vm26]

Good evening everyone,

I'm an older guy starting medical school in the fall, and I'm weighing a few different financial options for medical school (such a military vs loans). I'm attempting to forecast average earnings vs debt repayment over time, and I'm just curious as to what the general consensus is on the accuracy of salary information from websites such as Medscape and Profiles? Obviously those figures do not include the cost of malpractice insurance and taxes, but do they otherwise capture the full picture of physician compensation? Are there other significant costs that are not being accounted for?

Any additional financial information or advice that you have is also welcome. Thank you for your time.

After skimming those links I think that overall those numbers seem relatively accurate. There is geographic variation with south/midwest typically paying more. Hard to say how these numbers will change in the next 5-10 years, way too many variables at play. Will you be attending private or public medical school? I graduated from a public medical school w/160K in federal loans which works out to about $900/month for 30 year repayment which I think is very reasonable.

 

[Winged Scapula]

graduated from a public medical school w/160K in federal loans which works out to about $900/month for 30 year repayment which I think is very reasonable.

Have you considered paying it off more quickly? $900/month x 30 years translates to $324K, or twice what you borrowed. Doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

 

[link2swim06]

Salary is highly variable based on location, part-time vs full-time, partner vs employee, benefits, etc.

The numbers you see on the those websites are just an average of all those factors and your personal situation could be much better or worse.

 

[vm26]

Have you considered paying it off more quickly? $900/month x 30 years translates to $324K, or twice what you borrowed. Doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

Definitely have been paying off more, hoping to be done with it in 10 years

 

[link2swim06]

After skimming those links I think that overall those numbers seem relatively accurate. There is geographic variation with south/midwest typically paying more. Hard to say how these numbers will change in the next 5-10 years, way too many variables at play. Will you be attending private or public medical school? I graduated from a public medical school w/160K in federal loans which works out to about $900/month for 30 year repayment which I think is very reasonable.

Based on your join date I am going to assume you obtained loans when you could get very low interest rates? Like less than 5%?

All student loans now run around 7%. Financially it makes sense for the most recent med school grads to pay off their loans quickly. Otherwise you are going to throw a ton of money away in interest if you stretch it out for 30 years.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Based on your join date I am going to assume you obtained loans when you could get very low interest rates? Like less than 5%?

All student loans now run around 7%. Financially it makes sense for the most recent med school grads to pay off their loans quickly. Otherwise you are going to throw a ton of money away in interest if you stretch it out for 30 years.

Good point - I didn't look at his join date.

I have a sub 3% interest rate on mine. Or had as they're paid off now.

 

[vm26]

Based on your join date I am going to assume you obtained loans when you could get very low interest rates? Like less than 5%?

All student loans now run around 7%. Financially it makes sense for the most recent med school grads to pay off their loans quickly. Otherwise you are going to throw a ton of money away in interest if you stretch it out for 30 years.

Yes, 3.1%

 

[W19]

Good point - I didn't look at his join date.

I have a sub 3% interest rate on mine. Or had as they're paid off now.

Did you refinance? or that sub 3% was your original rate?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

These are MGMA figures for 2013. This is for the starting salaries though which, I believe, are more representative of the reality.
https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html

 

[W19]

@Ibn Alnafis MD derm starting salary is high...

 

[Sirach38]

Have you considered paying it off more quickly? $900/month x 30 years translates to $324K, or twice what you borrowed. Doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

I will graduate with 120K after med school. I plan to live off of 60-70K my first year after residency and completely pay off all of my loans in one year. This seems like a more reasonable approach doesn't it? Anybody else out there do this or planning to do this?

 

[W19]

I will graduate with 120K after med school. I plan to live off of 60-70K my first year after residency and completely pay off all of my loans in one year. This seems like a more reasonable approach doesn't it? Anybody else out there do this or planning to do this?

120k? Do you have scholarship(s) or grant?

 

[Sirach38]

120k? Do you have scholarship(s) or grant?

Yes, tuition scholarship.

 

[bonedrone14]

Op...I was waffling between military vs loans before I started also. I picked loans and every day have been glad I didn't pick the mil route...no offense to anyone who is serving now, just different strokes for different folks. I felt like in the end both choices chain you to a debt (either $ or time) but the loans gave me a little more freedom.

A good resource is the white coat investors blog...maybe check that out.

 

[W19]

I will graduate with 120K after med school. I plan to live off of 60-70K my first year after residency and completely pay off all of my loans in one year. This seems like a more reasonable approach doesn't it? Anybody else out there do this or planning to do this?

That amount might increase during residency due to interest, and in order to pay that in one year, you will need to be in one of the lucrative specialties i.e salary > 300k post residency.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

@Ibn Alnafis MD derm starting salary is high...

Yeah, I'm shocked to see how low diagnostic radiology and non-invasive cardiology starting salaries are. Everything is cyclical. Look at this MGMA report http://medical-mastermind-community.com/uploads/2009-MGMA.pdf

Page #9 of the report shows the starting salaries from 2005 all the way to 2008. You can clearly see how derm and EM starting salaries were below 200k while non-invasive cardio and diagnostic rads paid over 300k. Be aware of the inflation factor too. This is an inflation calculator to help you normalize the numbers http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

 

[ACSurgeon]

I will graduate with 120K after med school. I plan to live off of 60-70K my first year after residency and completely pay off all of my loans in one year. This seems like a more reasonable approach doesn't it? Anybody else out there do this or planning to do this?

Certainly reasonable, if you're in a field where you'll take home 200k/year. Otherwise, you can still pay it off in a few years and be done with a relatively reasonable amount of interest.

 

[Sirach38]

That amount might increase during residency due to interest, and in order to pay that in one year, you will need to be in one of the lucrative specialties i.e salary > 300k post residency.

Yeah, I realize that I will likely owe closer to 160K after residency, unless I try to pay the interest while in residency...If I'm making somwhere near 250K per year I should be able to pay most if not all my debt in a year. I don't anticipate it being that difficult to continue to live on a residents salary for an extra year when I will have been doing so for the previous 5 years.

 

[Baller MD]

Yeah, I'm shocked to see how low diagnostic radiology and non-invasive cardiology starting salaries are. Everything is cyclical. Look at this MGMA report http://medical-mastermind-community.com/uploads/2009-MGMA.pdf

Page #9 of the report shows the starting salaries from 2005 all the way to 2008. You can clearly see how derm and EM starting salaries were below 200k while non-invasive cardio and diagnostic rads paid over 300k. Be aware of the inflation factor too. This is an inflation calculator to help you normalize the numbers http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

No it's not. Look at pathology and primary care.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

No it's not. Look at pathology and primary care.

I'm confused here. These two example strengthen my point that everything is cyclical.

 

[fancymylotus]

I've said it before, you guys should make more monies for what you do. Some of the dentist salaries I've seen seem like highway robbery compared to those reports

 

[fancymylotus]

Good evening everyone,

I'm an older guy starting medical school in the fall, and I'm weighing a few different financial options for medical school (such a military vs loans). I'm attempting to forecast average earnings vs debt repayment over time, and I'm just curious as to what the general consensus is on the accuracy of salary information from websites such as Medscape and Profiles? Obviously those figures do not include the cost of malpractice insurance and taxes, but do they otherwise capture the full picture of physician compensation? Are there other significant costs that are not being accounted for?

Any additional financial information or advice that you have is also welcome. Thank you for your time.

I have no financial advice as my idea of a good investment involves shooz bags and diamonds BUT I can send you good luck wishes for school

 

[vm26]

Did you refinance? or that sub 3% was your original rate?

Initially was 4.1% (averaged over 4 years of med school). After consecutive 24 payments (which I made during residency), SallieMae dropped it by 1%.

 

[bc65]

I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but I believe that those are probably in the ballpark, but even if accurate they can vary quite a bit. I believe that those numbers are for net salary, after expenses, such as insurance, but before taxes.

Of course, you don't know what your specialty will be, so you should assume that you will be in primary care.

However, I would not go into the military for the scholarship alone. If you want to go into the military as a career, or because you want to serve, then by all means do so. However, you will be financially better off by taking out loans. By serving in the military for four years, you will lose the four highest paid years of your career. In return, you will get paid only your military salary for those years. Lets assume that you borrowed $ 250,000, and owed another 250,000 paying the interest. You will earn that back, after taxes, in about 2 years in practice, assuming a reasonable rate of inflation and a primary care salary. The numbers will be different if you make a career out of it, and get a pension, but then you have to calculate the salary differential. No matter how you do the math, though, you will do far better financially by borrowing the money rather than taking the military scholarship. Not to mention the loss of autonomy, and sacrifices in lifestyle, and risk to life and limb. If you stay in the reserves to try to qualify for a 20 year pension, you're at risk for being called up, something very likely to happen given the current world political climate. If you get called up, you are likely to lose your practice, as your patients will have gone elsewhere.

 

[Baller MD]

I'm confused here. These two example strengthen my point that everything is cyclical.

Please tell me when has pathology ever recently been on the upside? How long ago was this?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Please tell me when has pathology ever recent been on the upside? How long ago was this?

I don't have data to back up my claim, but before med school I worked in a clinical laboratory and I heard the pathologist being nostalgic over the golden days when they used to "print money".

However, the trend for a better pay in PC medicine is very clear. You can see it from the two sources I provided above.

 

[vm26]

Yeah, I'm shocked to see how low diagnostic radiology and non-invasive cardiology starting salaries are. Everything is cyclical. Look at this MGMA report http://medical-mastermind-community.com/uploads/2009-MGMA.pdf

Page #9 of the report shows the starting salaries from 2005 all the way to 2008. You can clearly see how derm and EM starting salaries were below 200k while non-invasive cardio and diagnostic rads paid over 300k. Be aware of the inflation factor too. This is an inflation calculator to help you normalize the numbers http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Rads as a field is hurting big time right now but those posted starting figures are about 33% off (unless you are doing academics in NYC/SF etc)

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Rads as a field is hurting big time right now but those posted starting figures are about 33% off (unless you are doing academics in NYC/SF etc)

I really hope so. I'm not planning on going into it, but it would bother me to see my colleagues being paid that "low" after 13+ years of a very expensive higher education.

 

[Baller MD]

I don't have data to back up my claim, but before med school I worked in a clinical laboratory and I heard the pathologist being nostalgic over the golden days when they used to "print money".

However, the trend for a better pay in PC medicine is very clear. You can see it from the two sources I provided above.

I think the last time pathology was in it's prime is in the 70s and 80s. Even in the 90s it was going down hill and pathologists were even talking about its demise that early. It hasn't recovered in nearly 20 years and probably isn't gonna recover anytime soon. Given this timeline, I would not call every field in medicine cyclical. Cyclical to me means it has to change at a reasonable rate during your career length and the fact that pathology has yet to change after all this time, tells that to me there are certain fields that have a very grim outlook.

 

[67552931811]

No it's not. Look at pathology and primary care.

I said this in another thread when someone brought up path:

"I have a pathologist relative who I asked about the "bad" job market. H/she laughed and said that the market is not bad right now and that soon it will be very good due to a few factors: docs retiring, demand> supply, etc."

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I think the last time pathology was in it's prime is in the 70s and 80s. Even in the 90s it was going down hill and pathologists were even talking about its demise that early. It hasn't recovered in nearly 20 years and probably isn't gonna recover anytime soon. Given this timeline, I would not call every field in medicine cyclical. Cyclical to me means it has to change at a reasonable rate during your career length and the fact that pathology has yet to change after all this time, tells that to me there are certain fields that have a very grim outlook.

which fields, in your opinion, have a grim outlook?

 

[Aloft085]

Initially was 4.1% (averaged over 4 years of med school). After consecutive 24 payments (which I made during residency), SallieMae dropped it by 1%.

Wow, that's a highway robbery interest rate (for you). That's barely higher than inflation. I'd pay it off over 30 years also at 3.1%.

 

[Baller MD]

I said this in another thread when someone brought up path:

"I have a pathologist relative who I asked about the "bad" job market. H/she laughed and said that the market is not bad right now and that soon it will be very good due to a few factors: docs retiring, demand> supply, etc."

That's what radiologists and every other doctors are saying too...

http://www.practicelink.com/ Look for yourself.

Response to the argument "but most jobs are not advertised": specialties with plentiful of jobs also have jobs that aren't advertised as well. So it's an invalid argument.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Wow, that's a highway robbery interest rate (for you). That's barely higher than inflation. I'd pay it off over 30 years also at 3.1%.

Those who graduated med school last decade had it really good. Low tuition, low interest rates, and deferment during residency. On the other hand we have something better, loan forgiveness...if that sticks around.

 

[67552931811]

That's what radiologists and every other doctors are saying too...

http://www.practicelink.com/ Look for yourself.

Response to the argument "but most jobs are not advertised": specialties with plentiful of jobs also have jobs that aren't advertised as well. So it's an invalid argument.

Hey man, I'm just telling you what a practicing path doc who is going through/ just went through the job search told me. I also spoke to a few other attending path docs that I know through said relative and they all, unequivocally, agreed with him/ her. Believe what you want, I have no dog in this fight-- just adding my experience to the convo.

 

[Aloft085]

I will graduate with 120K after med school. I plan to live off of 60-70K my first year after residency and completely pay off all of my loans in one year. This seems like a more reasonable approach doesn't it? Anybody else out there do this or planning to do this?

Yeah, I realize that I will likely owe closer to 160K after residency, unless I try to pay the interest while in residency...If I'm making somwhere near 250K per year I should be able to pay most if not all my debt in a year. I don't anticipate it being that difficult to continue to live on a residents salary for an extra year when I will have been doing so for the previous 5 years.

Keep in mind that you have to pay back your loans with post-tax income. Your effective tax rate will depend on your state of residence and income, but it won't be trivial. A 33% effective tax rate (including SS/medicare/etc) would require you to earn 50% more than the amount you plan to pay off. So you would have to dedicate roughly $240k in pretax income to pay off $160k in debt. Of course that's a very rough wag. It's doable if you're in dermatology or something.

 

[Baller MD]

Hey man, I'm just telling you what a practicing path doc who is going through/ just went through the job search told me. I also spoke to a few other attending path docs that I know through said relative and they all, unequivocally, agreed with him/ her. Believe what you want, I have no dog in this fight-- just adding some real life truth to the convo.

I know man. I just want to let people know. But I bet if you ask different docs from different specialties I bet most of them will tell you things are fine and dandy.

 

[Sirach38]

Keep in mind that you have to pay back your loans with post-tax income. Your effective tax rate will depend on your state of residence and income, but it won't be trivial. A 33% effective tax rate (including SS/medicare/etc) would require you to earn 50% more than the amount you plan to pay off. So you would have to dedicate roughly $240k in pretax income to pay off $160k in debt. Of course that's a very rough wag. It's doable if you're in dermatology or something.

That's doable in many specialties outside of primary care. I'm going into anesthesia. Who knows what salaries will be when I graduate but if I was out practicing now, paying that off would be no problem.

 

[JGimpel]

I'm laughing at those salaries right now. If you're in primary care, you will not start anywhere near 200K, no matter what the new ACA brings in terms of increased reimbursement. Go into an accelerated RN/CRNA school if you're considering FP. I wouldn't trust anyone I care about to have a CRNA do the anesthesia on their surgery from the alarming amount of times that patients began to move or respire on the table while I was assisting in surgery in many hospitals, but the bar is set pretty low if you want to be one and you can choose to be a good one.

DO's like me are heavily pressured to go into FP and most of the new DO residencies appear to be FP ones, so if they fill those slots, there will be even more salary decreases and if they don't, they won't be converted into ones that actually pay well. Besides, for all but the few that start highly, you can start around 200K no matter where you are if you do what most new doctors don't do: have an attorney review and negotiate the terms in your PROPOSED contract, make sure that you're not covering call for an entire county for most of the month no matter what little extras they're giving you, and take 1 to 20% MAX of Medicare/Medicaid patients until they fix that system. Some hospitals require a certain percent, so make sure you're exactly at that percent on the contract and in practice.

If you're spending 28 hours per day training in one of those specialties that takes 5-8 years to get complete, which is most of them if you consider fellowship time into your calculations, you not only have to account for the high malpractice costs in general, but consider the cost of alimony as nobody is going to tolerate that kind of marriage for that long. A judge would have them stay with your ex since they just have to print out a copy of your schedule to prove that he/she is more likely to give them the care they need.

I'm looking at over 40K higher than what's on the AAMC list with only doing the above and making sure they know I have several other offers in front of me so I get the final "comp sheet" BEFORE anything is signed. I see no reason why any other physician couldn't get the same or better if they factored the above into their job search.

Use the Motley Fool site to learn about investing your money first, start with Mutual Funds, then slowly transition to individual stocks when you've got over 100K free to invest per year.

Been there, done that and trying to help you avoid the same issues.
Good luck!

 

[W19]

I'm laughing at those salaries right now. If you're in primary care, you will not start anywhere near 200K, no matter what the new ACA brings in terms of increased reimbursement. Go into an accelerated RN/CRNA school if you're considering FP. I wouldn't trust anyone I care about to have a CRNA do the anesthesia on their surgery from the alarming amount of times that patients began to move or respire on the table while I was assisting in surgery in many hospitals, but the bar is set pretty low if you want to be one and you can choose to be a good one.

DO's like me are heavily pressured to go into FP and most of the new DO residencies appear to be FP ones, so if they fill those slots, there will be even more salary decreases and if they don't, they won't be converted into ones that actually pay well. Besides, for all but the few that start highly, you can start around 200K no matter where you are if you do what most new doctors don't do: have an attorney review and negotiate the terms in your PROPOSED contract, make sure that you're not covering call for an entire county for most of the month no matter what little extras they're giving you, and take 1 to 20% MAX of Medicare/Medicaid patients until they fix that system. Some hospitals require a certain percent, so make sure you're exactly at that percent on the contract and in practice.

If you're spending 28 hours per day training in one of those specialties that takes 5-8 years to get complete, which is most of them if you consider fellowship time into your calculations, you not only have to account for the high malpractice costs in general, but consider the cost of alimony as nobody is going to tolerate that kind of marriage for that long. A judge would have them stay with your ex since they just have to print out a copy of your schedule to prove that he/she is more likely to give them the care they need.

I'm looking at over 40K higher than what's on the AAMC list with only doing the above and making sure they know I have several other offers in front of me so I get the final "comp sheet" BEFORE anything is signed. I see no reason why any other physician couldn't get the same or better if they factored the above into their job search.

Use the Motley Fool site to learn about investing your money first, start with Mutual Funds, then slowly transition to individual stocks when you've got over 100K free to invest per year.

Been there, done that and trying to help you avoid the same issues.
Good luck!

Are you a PCP?

 

[JGimpel]

Nope, dodged that bullet. I will not be more specific as to the field I do work in, but just know that you will be offered much less than you're worth unless you believe in yourself to push for more. The lifestyle and pay of a PCP is usually horrible and is one of the few that keeps going down.

 

[Silent Cool]

Nope, dodged that bullet. I will not be more specific as to the field I do work in, but just know that you will be offered much less than you're worth unless you believe in yourself to push for more. The lifestyle and pay of a PCP is usually horrible and is one of the few that keeps going down.

Yup.

And it will go down more with the 43% cut to medicaid starting this year.

Yikes.

 

[Follow the Cairns]

Based on personal experience, you can pay off student loans in under 10 years. Spouse paid off 120K in Med school loans (plus an additional 35K we had lingering from my Graduate school) in 5 years. However, we were only able to do so because of being in a very highly paid specialty and living in a much less desirable area (which translated to a much higher income).

I really can see how someone in a primary care field who has 175-200K would struggle with it.

 

[Lysinee]

Why is the OP even worrying about salaries? As an incoming med student, s/he will have a minimum of 7* years before getting paid as a physician.

*depends on specificity choice

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Why is the OP even worrying about salaries? As an incoming med student, s/he will have a minimum of 7* years before getting paid as a physician.

*depends on specificity choice

Yeah. Without a crystal ball it seems to be almost impossible to know what will happen over the next decade. However, to answer the OP, I believe Medscape and MGMA are thought to be more or less accurate. If nothing absolute, it at least gives you a good idea of the current hierarchy of specialties.

Take loans over military. It does NOT make fiscal or professional sense to go the military route.

 

[PhillyMed777]

agree with above
MGMA is quite accurate if you are talking private practice...otherwise may seem inflated

 

[Aloft085]

Why is the OP even worrying about salaries? As an incoming med student, s/he will have a minimum of 7* years before getting paid as a physician.

*depends on specificity choice

Because there are routes that pay for medical school for you, but with commitments involved (e.g. military). I also have a few different school options available to me, with varying levels of tuition. Accurately forecasting future earnings will enable me to make sounder and less stressful decisions as to how much money I should borrow. I'm also an older non-trad student that doesn't want to wait until age 50 to start a family, if that helps you with context.

Thanks to everyone for all of the replies thus far. Some of them were very helpful.

 

[PhillyMed777]

^if time is also a variable, consider emergency medicine. residency can be 3 years and earnings are solid.

 

[Orthojoe]

JGimpel-- I'm laughing at those salaries right now. If you're in primary care, you will not start anywhere near 200K.---

Couple of my buddies who just graduated from FP residency took a spot with kaiser at 210K a year with a 175K 7 year signing bonus. Of course it is in a smaller town (modesto, CA pop 200K, pretty nice town in my opinion though) considered an under-served population. Another one took a job in battle mountain, Nevada, 350K salary, does 1 weekend a month in the ED. again another under-served city. Its possible, just rare and you make other sacrifices. A short stint in an under served community can go a long way in paying back student loans and building a small nest egg.

I plan on working in a smaller community as I was an older applicant with a family and my student loans are high (upwards in the 400K range - AZCOM stinks)

Im just glad I matched ortho...