Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

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prevacid said:
if people see they have to do a residency after graduation, it will deter people from getting into it from the get go...talk to some preceptors who have taken in students from these new pharmacy schools, they are appalled at their lack of knowledge
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I understand what you're trying to say about prospective students and their lack of a desire to learn beyond what is taught in pharmacy school. The problem that I have with your idea, though, is that if a student is finished with his/her education, then they should be able to chose what it is that they will do to advance their knowledge and the profession overall. Requiring mandatory residencies is an encroachment on professional practicing freedoms.

Seriously... this is not medical school. The perks of being a med. resident are well-established, e.g. established programs exist to defer loans while a med. student is in residency, unlike pharm. residents who have to declare an economic hardship status during residency, and the trade-off for those perks is a few years of working as med. resident to gain experience and practicing rights.
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Its much easier to raise salaries than lower them, but I agree ... its going to start going down if saturation reaches that point. Not 100% comparable, but Law School is longer and is also a doctorate degree, and you can't get a decent job now without going to a T14 school.
 
Argentium said:
Its much easier to raise salaries than lower them, but I agree ... its going to start going down if saturation reaches that point. Not 100% comparable, but Law School is longer and is also a doctorate degree, and you can't get a decent job now without going to a T14 school.
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Law school is 3 years, so I don't really get what you're trying to say...


My lovely sister was accepted into multiple law schools for fall '09. She was awarded scholarships by 2 schools for $25k/year. She chose the most prestigious school, which happened to be the one giving her a scholarship and located in this city, and her out of pocket expense will be approx. $45K total upon graduation, which will be $30K more than her next-best alternative.

images


This is all good and wonderful, however, my bf's brother is an attorney who works for a successful firm in the same city, and he graduated from the state school, not the prestigious school, because it was economical.


Economics is a big factor. If people chose to ignore the economical factors surrounding their decisions, like doing residencies instead of finding a company who will train you to become a "clinical" pharmacist, then they will have to deal with the consequences...
 
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PharmDstudent said:
No thanks! It's just another racket- plain and simple.

The opportunity cost of a residency is not justifiable. The income lost while making $30-40k as a resident is roughly $60-70k/year (based on $100k/year salary). Seeing that I will graduate with ~$100k in debt after 8 years of college, a year of residency costs ($100k/8 years of college = $12.5k/year vs $60-70k/year lost per year of residency) approx. 5 times more than a year of college, which is ridiculous!
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Let me try the math. 1 year residency is enough to get you the most typical clinical positions. Where I work, staff pharmacist make about $90K, clinical make just a bit over $100K. I'm going to guess DOP here make about $130K. Resident get paid $37K. Tax status = single.

DOP ($130K/yr), after tax = $85,841.66
clinical ($100K/yr), after tax = $67,303.67
staff ($90K/yr), after tax = $61,478.97
residency income/year, after tax = $29,026.32

Residency $ loss per year = $32,452.65 ($64,905.3 for 2 years)

Clinical $ gain per year = $5,824.7
DOP $ gain per year = $24,362.69

Clinical residency break even = 5.57 years.
Pharm Admin residency break even = 2.66 years.

There are other ways to get those positions, but they are not nearly as a sure thing and probably takes significantly longer than a residency.

You are right to consider the money factor, and the financial factor of residencies are not something to take lightly. But I think hospital ones, especially the administrative ones offer pretty good rate of return. Now, some schools are offering community pharmacy residencies... now THAT I don't know if it pays. ;)
 
xiphoid2010 said:
Let me try the math. 1 year residency is enough to get you the most typical clinical positions. Where I work, staff pharmacist make about $90K, clinical make just a bit over $100K. I'm going to guess DOP here make about $130K. Resident get paid $37K. Tax status = single.

DOP ($130K/yr), after tax = $85,841.66
clinical ($100K/yr), after tax = $67,303.67
staff ($90K/yr), after tax = $61,478.97
residency income/year, after tax = $29,026.32

Residency $ loss per year = $32,452.65 ($64,905.3 for 2 years)

Clinical $ gain per year = $5,824.7
DOP $ gain per year = $24,362.69

Clinical residency break even = 5.57 years.
Pharm Admin residency break even = 2.66 years.

There are other ways to get those positions, but they are not nearly as a sure thing and probably takes significantly longer than a residency.

You are right to consider the money factor, and the financial factor of residencies are not something to take lightly. But I think hospital ones, especially the administrative ones offer pretty good rate of return.
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You can do the after-tax calculations if you want, but you can not factor in the fact that you will qualify for a smaller mortgage and car loan (due to lower gross income while doing a residency) and the interest that will be piling up- if you can't get it deferred somehow.

Taxes are different for everyone, too.

Admin residencies are few and far between and hardly apply to the admin workforce overall.
All of the DOPs or former DOPs that I know did NOT do a residency.

xiphoid2010 said:
Now, some schools are offering community pharmacy residencies... now THAT I don't know if it pays. ;)
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Right! :p
 
PharmDstudent said:
I understand what you're trying to say about prospective students and their lack of a desire to learn beyond what is taught in pharmacy school. The problem that I have with your idea, though, is that if a student is finished with his/her education, then they should be able to chose what it is that they will do to advance their knowledge and the profession overall. Requiring mandatory residencies is an encroachment on professional practicing freedoms.

Seriously... this is not medical school. The perks of being a med. resident are well-established, e.g. established programs exist to defer loans while a med. student is in residency, unlike pharm. residents who have to declare an economic hardship status during residency, and the trade-off for those perks is a few years of working as med. resident to gain experience and practicing rights.
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I deferred my loans...just as a medical resident?? not sure what you are getting at..
 
bigpharmD said:
I deferred my loans...just as a medical resident?? not sure what you are getting at..
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I believe it depends on the individual case. There isn't a standard... at least not that I know of.
 
PharmDstudent said:
No thanks! It's just another racket- plain and simple.

The opportunity cost of a residency is not justifiable. The income lost while making $30-40k as a resident is roughly $60-70k/year (based on $100k/year salary). Seeing that I will graduate with ~$100k in debt after 8 years of college, a year of residency costs ($100k/8 years of college = $12.5k/year vs $60-70k/year lost per year of residency) approx. 5 times more than a year of college, which is ridiculous!
That's all you'll have left after a year of residency...




Experience and advanced degrees on top of a PharmD are both economical and prestigious alternatives, AND they're just as good as residencies- IMO.
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Wow this P3 has figured out. :laugh::laugh: In pharmacy doing a residency is not all about money obivously. It is about increasing your knowledge base and opening up further job opportunities. Do you think the director for transplant medical affairs at novartis (who is a pharmd making more money than you ever will) just graduated and fell into that position? NO she did 2 years of residency. What about the CEO of St. Judes cancer hospital. DO you think he just graduated, worked in the IV room and picked up some shifts at CVS. NO he did a residency and a fellowsip. He has no formal business training. You have no clue. Do you think you know everything because you work as a tech in the hospital or at walgreens? Try working in the real world with a real license before you decide what is worth it and what is not....Every day I read posts like this I think of making a career change to medicine. I feel like our profession is full of people who dont want to do anything to better themselves or this profession. It is getting quite sad.
 
PharmDstudent said:
I believe it depends on the individual case. There isn't a standard... at least not that I know of.
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You just print off the paper from sallie mae that says medical related residency...it does not say MD residency...you fill it out fax it in and a week later your loans are deferred.
 
PharmDstudent said:
You can do the after-tax calculations if you want, but you can not factor in the fact that you will qualify for a smaller mortgage and car loan (due to lower gross income while doing a residency) and the interest that will be piling up- if you can't get it deferred somehow.

Taxes are different for everyone, too.

Admin residencies are few and far between and hardly apply to the admin workforce overall.
All of the DOPs or former DOPs that I know did NOT do a residency.

Right! :p
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Tax is indeed different. I'm trying to leave the individual variable out for apple to apple comparisons. But feel free to use your personal number to crunch the $ number :)

Most current DOP are still left over legacy from pre-pharm.D/pre-residency days. But now you can get a jump start doing one of the residencies. There is a shortage of DOPs, so you can get a job pretty easily, as long as you don't have your eyes set on one place.
 
bigpharmD said:
Wow this P3 has figured out. :laugh::laugh: In pharmacy doing a residency is not all about money obivously. It is about increasing your knowledge base and opening up further job opportunities. Do you think the director for transplant medical affairs at novartis (who is a pharmd making more money than you ever will) just graduated and fell into that position? NO she did 2 years of residency. What about the CEO of St. Judes cancer hospital. DO you think he just graduated, worked in the IV room and picked up some shifts at CVS. NO he did a residency and a fellowsip. He has no formal business training. You have no clue. Do you think you know everything because you work as a tech in the hospital or at walgreens? Try working in the real world with a real license before you decide what is worth it and what is not....Every day I read posts like this I think of making a career change to medicine. I feel like our profession is full of people who dont want to do anything to better themselves or this profession. It is getting quite sad.
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For every example that you can come up with, I can come up with something that proves the opposite.

Go ahead. Make a career change to medicine. If you're lucky, you'll get to do 5 more years of residency. :laugh: It's sooooooo obvious that your residencies have been sooooooo worth it thus far since you're thinking about changing career paths. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I've said this over and over again on SDN- experience and formal education on top of a PharmD is the way to go, IMO.
 
xiphoid2010 said:
Tax is indeed different. I'm trying to leave the individual variable out for apple to apple comparisons. But feel free to use your personal number to crunch the $ number :)

Most current DOP are still left over legacy from pre-pharm.D/pre-residency days. But now you can get a jump start doing one of the residencies. There is a shortage of DOPs, so you can get a job pretty easily, as long as you don't have your eyes set on one place.
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True.

DOP spots generally require 5 years of experience or more, so residency-->DOP is not going to be a common practice.
 
bigpharmD said:
Every day I read posts like this I think of making a career change to medicine. I feel like our profession is full of people who dont want to do anything to better themselves or this profession. It is getting quite sad.
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And for every post like that, there are at least two of us (that I can name specifically ;)) that are doing residencies for the right reasons.
 
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PharmDstudent said:
For every example that you can come up with, I can come up with something that proves the opposite.

Go ahead. Make a career change to medicine. If you're lucky, you'll get to do 5 more years of residency. :laugh: It's so obvious that your residencies have been sooooooo worth it. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I've said this over and over again on SDN- experience and formal education on top of a PharmD is the way to go.
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And this comes from what experience? Good luck getting a day shift job at the hospital I work at. 1 year residency required or 3 years experience.
I can give you 100 more examples if you would like. Or I could bring up Priapisms old post. My residencies were worth it. Just signed a six figure specialist position with no weekends and staffing during a recession in a "saturated" market. What do you have lined up?
 
Glycerin said:
And for every post like that, there are at least two of us (that I can name specifically ;)) that are doing residencies for the right reasons.
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Perhaps you just don't care about your finances? $200k, right?






Before this gets any uglier, I'll leave the table.

Peace.
 
PharmDstudent said:
True.

DOP spots generally require 5 years of experience or more, so residency-->DOP is not going to be a common practice.
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This is completely untrue. You have no idea of real practice. I know several admin residents who have went on to DOP at smaller hospital or assistant DOP at larger hospitals. Come with some facts when you do come back to the table.
 
PharmDstudent said:
Perhaps you just don't care about your finances? $200k, right?






Before this gets any uglier, I'll leave the table.

Peace.
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My quality of life and making what I want out of my career are more important than what I immediately owe. Do you think I won't be able to pay off my loans just because I won't make over $100K/year for a year or two? That's absurd. Oh, and by the way, not all residencies pay just $30K or $40K a year.

Bottom line is, you've made your point very clear over and over and over about how you think a residency is pointless, and whatever, it's your opinion. But don't try to belittle others for their choices just because you don't see the worth in it.
 
bigpharmD said:
This is completely untrue. You have no idea of real practice. I know several admin residents who have went on to DOP at smaller hospital or assistant DOP at larger hospitals. Come with some facts when you do come back to the table.
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Here are 3 links to prove my side of the debate:

EXPERIENCE: Requires five years experience in hospital pharmacy management.
http://www.rxcareercenter.com/searc...s Santa Rosa Health Care/Director of Pharmacy
San Antonio, TX

Five years experience as a Hospital Pharmacist with 3 years experience in a management capacity.
http://www.rxcareercenter.com/searc...St. Vincent’s Birmingham/Director Of Pharmacy
Birmingham, AL

Qualifications
· Doctorate in Pharmacy.
· Current license to practice Pharmacy in the State of California without restriction or probation
· Five years managed care experience
· Two years in a managerial or leadership role

http://www.rxcareercenter.com/searc...re/Director, Pharmacy Benefits Administration
San Diego, CA
 
^

Keep in mind, many hospitals consider 1 year residency = 2 years experience. So a 2 year residency isn't far from a 5 year experience. Add the DOP shortage, you see why many hospitals in not super popular areas will take 1 on right out of residency.
 
Glycerin said:
My quality of life and making what I want out of my career are more important than what I immediately owe. Do you think I won't be able to pay off my loans just because I won't make over $100K/year for a year or two? That's absurd. Oh, and by the way, not all residencies pay just $30K or $40K a year.

Bottom line is, you've made your point very clear over and over and over about how you think a residency is pointless, and whatever, it's your opinion. But don't try to belittle others for their choices just because you don't see the worth in it.
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Fine. It's just very tiring and disturbing, to hear yet another person, say that residencies should be mandatory. There is no reason for it, in my opinion, and every time that I defend my position, pro-residency folks will come back trying to say that all anti-residency people care about is pushing pills and making big bucks- which is NOT true.


Right. Not all residencies will pay that, but almost all will.
 
my residency is paying $50K.
 
xiphoid2010 said:
where can I sign? LOL, seriously, where are you at? Do they have a HS Pharm Admin residency there? :)
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There's one in Wisconsin. Nice guy. I spoke with him over the phone my P1 year. :p
 
xiphoid2010 said:
where can I sign? LOL, seriously, where are you at? Do they have a HS Pharm Admin residency there? :)
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nope, not yet anyway. Not too far from where you are...
 
For me, I'm thinking the "straight into 50/50 staff/clinical position while working towards an MBA over 2 years or so with an eye towards management" plan best suits me. Then I'll be the boss of all of the people that did clinical residencies. Hahaha.
 
PharmDstudent said:
Fine. It's just very tiring and disturbing, to hear yet another person, say that residencies should be mandatory. There is no reason for it, in my opinion, and every time that I defend my position, pro-residency folks will come back trying to say that all anti-residency people care about is pushing pills and making big bucks- which is NOT true.


Right. Not all residencies will pay that, but almost all will.
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Nowhere have I ever said that, but yet you quoted me and dared to suggest there'd be an issue with paying back loans/finances because I'm choosing to do a residency when you know nothing about my personal life or situation. So yeah, I have a problem with that.
 
man, now I feel like columbus is trying to rip us off. LOL. Ones around here are high $30K, nowhere near high 40's.

Another thing you can do is float x hours a week to pick up some extra dough.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
For me, I'm thinking the "straight into 50/50 staff/clinical position while working towards an MBA over 2 years or so with an eye towards management" plan best suits me. Then I'll be the boss of all of the people that did clinical residencies. Hahaha.
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Not a bad idea. Will you hire me?
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
For me, I'm thinking the "straight into 50/50 staff/clinical position while working towards an MBA over 2 years or so with an eye towards management" plan best suits me. Then I'll be the boss of all of the people that did clinical residencies. Hahaha.
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I thought about it as well. The thing is with residency increasingly a requirement rather than an option, I want to future-proof myself against the new grads from Jimmy-Bob COP that's popping up.

MBA is a good way, but it usually take more than 2 years if you are working full time. And especially with pharmacy schedules/rotating nights, ect, might be hard to fit in to. So 3.5-4 years is probably more likely. So compared to a 2 year residency, it's a toss up.

I think we can all agree that in the current dynamic environment, striving for status quo probably not going to work. Be it residency or MBA or MS/PHD, ect, put a few lawyers of insulation/specialty between yourself and next wave is probably a good idea.
 
i find it disturbing at the bickering that fellow pharmcists have within each other...this isnt a way to advance the profession. We should respect each others career path and give our wisdom to others who seek it. This way, we better the profession as a whole

At Wags, I mean im young out of school, so the older pharmacists in the district call me for advice on drug switches b4 they call the md, and I call them for old brand names that I have no clue on. And it works great both ways as we get to help each other out.

Whatever happened to helping others out and respecting peoples decision. If we want to advance this profession or at least keep it respectable, we should be understanding of our fellows

/rant
 
prevacid said:
i find it disturbing at the bickering that fellow pharmcists have within each other...this isnt a way to advance the profession. We should respect each others career path and give our wisdom to others who seek it. This way, we better the profession as a whole

At Wags, I mean im young out of school, so the older pharmacists in the district call me for advice on drug switches b4 they call the md, and I call them for old brand names that I have no clue on. And it works great both ways as we get to help each other out.

Whatever happened to helping others out and respecting peoples decision. If we want to advance this profession or at least keep it respectable, we should be understanding of our fellows

/rant
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It's good as long as can be debated in a civil manner, it can be very constructive, even within a profession, maybe more so. It's the uncivil ones that results in little information being exchanged due to people putting up walls when insulted.

I would encourage exchange of perspective regarding residency and all career pathways. People might figure things that they haven't thought of. Just let's keep it rational and civil.
 
The thing is, PEOPLE make up the profession, or any profession, and they will always disagree.
 
xiphoid2010 said:
^

Keep in mind, many hospitals consider 1 year residency = 2 years experience. So a 2 year residency isn't far from a 5 year experience. Add the DOP shortage, you see why many hospitals in not super popular areas will take 1 on right out of residency.
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exactly. Those links mean absolutely nothing.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
For me, I'm thinking the "straight into 50/50 staff/clinical position while working towards an MBA over 2 years or so with an eye towards management" plan best suits me. Then I'll be the boss of all of the people that did clinical residencies. Hahaha.
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THats good thinking...but why not strive for more and be upper management in the hospital...CEO...then you will be everyones boss including the anesthesiologists

by the way i would never make a residency manditory. many people get into pharmacy so they do not have to work in the hospital, have direct patient care, or be involved hands on....and thats ok.
 
bigpharmD said:
THats good thinking...but why not strive for more and be upper management in the hospital...CEO...then you will be everyones boss including the anesthesiologists

by the way i would never make a residency manditory. many people get into pharmacy so they do not have to work in the hospital, have direct patient care, or be involved hands on....and thats ok.
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Man..that's gotta be the most thankless job out there. Also, it's almost mandatory to get an MHA...not a bad thing. But have you seen the turnover rate of hospital CEO? I would go the CFO route... way cooler.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
Man..that's gotta be the most thankless job out there. Also, it's almost mandatory to get an MHA...not a bad thing. But have you seen the turnover rate of hospital CEO? I would go the CFO route... way cooler.
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Man the past 3 hospitals i have been at the ceo's have been there 10 plus years...and all of them were good and really seemed to like it...i prob would to if I was banking 1 mill+ a year
 
I'd go COO before I went CEO. My MHA family member has had 2 CEO jobs in 3 years and is possibly looking again
 
bigpharmD said:
Man the past 3 hospitals i have been at the ceo's have been there 10 plus years...and all of them were good and really seemed to like it...i prob would to if I was banking 1 mill+ a year
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Man... I went through 3 CEO in 1.5 years once... but yeah..there are stable CEO's...
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
For me, I'm thinking the "straight into 50/50 staff/clinical position while working towards an MBA over 2 years or so with an eye towards management" plan best suits me. Then I'll be the boss of all of the people that did clinical residencies. Hahaha.
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Hey! Stop trying to steal my game plan! ;)
 
So here are my goals:

1a) get a "clinical" job -with training included- to see if I'll enjoy "clinical" pharmacy
2a) if I like my "clinical" job, then I'll try to climb the management ladder while working on an advanced degree
3a) if I still like my job with added responsibilities, I'll try to move higher up the ladder after completing my advanced degree

but if I don't like my "clinical" job:
2b) work 7on/7off at a hospital plus work during the week off at a different institution or retail for added income
3b) work until I can save up enough money to quit working during my week off
4b) work 7on/7off until I have enough saved to retire

and if I don't like my 7on/7off job:
3c) invest my savings into building a classy indy pharmacy in an under-served retirement community
4c) work at my indy until I can't compete anymore or I can retire


What will it take to get there? I'll have to move. Plain and simple.
 
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