PDs/Departments who have made definitive statements on whether they will SOAP in the 2020 match.

[evilbooyaa]

*LIST OF PDs THAT HAVE PUBLICLY SAID THEY WILL NOT SOAP IN THE UPCOMING MATCH* - Goal of 100% PD participation:
1) Sushil Beriwal - UPMC
2) Rahul Tendulkar - Cleveland Clinic
3) Jordan Kharofa - University of Cincinnati
4) Albert Attita - Vanderbilt University
5) Kenneth Olivier - Mayo Rochester

The above list is subject to change as additional PDs/departments come forward with similar statements.

Let's start a thread for (hopefully) some positive discussion.



These are issues being discussed by the Twitter crowd.

Let's post PDs (with evidence) stating that they will not be taking people in the Match.

I encourage all PDs with a personal or departmental presence on twitter to join along with at least Rahul Tendulkar (Cleveland Clinic) and Sushil Beriwal (UPMC) and publicly display their intention to NOT SOAP in the upcoming Match.

Let's keep this thread limited to this, and allow general twitter discussion (not on this specific issue) to continue on this thread:

Rad Onc Twitter

Getting annoying because of the sycophants. We all are on here posting. We can do the same thing on twitter. Use your SDN name, post, and we can All retweet each other to make the salient points more prominent to push back on the nonsense and garbage being spewed. I’m getting fatigued of...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Here is Dr. Tendulkar's (from the twitter thread in the second link above):

Let's be an agent for good and create a repository to publicly acknowledge those who are doing the right thing. This will also provide a history of evidence for anybody who is simply paying lip service, and goes against their 'statement' in the upcoming match. Let's see who is willing to virtue signal for the right thing.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Another interesting thread found this nugget:


Jordan Kharofa (PD I believe at U of Cincinnati) has already started this on twitter. Now we have 4 good guy PDs: Add on Albert Attia of Vanderbilt University

 

[evilbooyaa]

KO is on the train, y'all!

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

*LIST OF PDs THAT HAVE PUBLICLY SAID THEY WILL NOT SOAP IN THE UPCOMING MATCH* - Goal of 100% PD participation:
1) Sushil Beriwal - UPMC
2) Rahul Tendulkar - Cleveland Clinic
3) Jordan Kharofa - University of Cincinnati
4) Albert Attita - Vanderbilt University
5) Kenneth Olivier - Mayo Rochester

The above list is subject to change as additional PDs/departments come forward with similar statements.

Let's start a thread for (hopefully) some positive discussion.



These are issues being discussed by the Twitter crowd.

Let's post PDs (with evidence) stating that they will not be taking people in the Match.

I encourage all PDs with a personal or departmental presence on twitter to join along with at least Rahul Tendulkar (Cleveland Clinic) and Sushil Beriwal (UPMC) and publicly display their intention to NOT SOAP in the upcoming Match.

Let's keep this thread limited to this, and allow general twitter discussion (not on this specific issue) to continue on this thread:

Rad Onc Twitter

Getting annoying because of the sycophants. We all are on here posting. We can do the same thing on twitter. Use your SDN name, post, and we can All retweet each other to make the salient points more prominent to push back on the nonsense and garbage being spewed. I’m getting fatigued of...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Here is Dr. Tendulkar's (from the twitter thread in the second link above):

View attachment 285914

Let's be an agent for good and create a repository to publicly acknowledge those who are doing the right thing. This will also provide a history of evidence for anybody who is simply paying lip service, and goes against their 'statement' in the upcoming match. Let's see who is willing to virtue signal for the right thing.

Former PD here. If memory serves the decision to participate in SOAP is made well in advance of reviewing applications; in August or so. These statements could be Match violations. Very easy to say one thing and do another.

 

[RickyScott]

Is it possible to tell if a program soaps?

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Is it possible to tell if a program soaps?

I don't think the NRMP releases that data?

It's easy enough to play detective though.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

I don't think the NRMP releases that data?

It's easy enough to play detective though.

Yes this data is released but months after the Match. Filling in SOAP does not count as filling in this data that is released so I don't know if you will be able to distinguish programs that SOAPed versus programs that didn't and let the spot go empty. If no one was ranked for the position at all (i.e. a fake spot) that will look the same as if they actually interviewed and tried to fill the position.

 

[GapCalc]

Reporting programs that SOAP is a violation of the Match. There are ways to find out (and people published it on the spreadsheet last year), but the idea behind this is that it allows those who SOAP into a spot to look as 'legitimate' as their peers. IMO, it's not a great look to try to search out and identify those folks who did find a spot via SOAP. I think it's better policy (not to mention better optics) to get programs/PDs to commit not to SOAPing unqualified candidates instead of playing detective.

My $0.02.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Yes this data is released but months after the Match. Filling in SOAP does not count as filling in this data that is released so I don't know if you will be able to distinguish programs that SOAPed versus programs that didn't and let the spot go empty. If no one was ranked for the position at all (i.e. a fake spot) that will look the same as if they actually interviewed and tried to fill the position.

Sorry for not being more clear - I know the NRMP releases that data, but as the post above mentions, I don't think it releases "this program filled with SOAP kids, this program filled with Match kids".

 

[MegaVoltagePhoton]

Who would be at risk? If sdn anonymously outs these programs, how could a “violation” be enforced? Meaningless threat, just like the anti-trust bs.

 

[RickyScott]

Would love to see if LIJ soaps after the chair wrote that SCAROP editorial. That when true colors of greed are revealed.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

Sorry for not being more clear - I know the NRMP releases that data, but as the post above mentions, I don't think it releases "this program filled with SOAP kids, this program filled with Match kids".

Well it releases this program filled and this program didn't. Back when not filling was rare you could then check the website and see if the program that didn't fill had a full complement of residents anyway, but no yoy wouldn't know if they SOAPed or rentered the match next year for people who already were in intern year. But you're right there are too many vacancies now and it will be impossible to sort that out

 

[deleted573262]

Well it releases this program filled and this program didn't. Back when not filling was rare you could then check the website and see if the program that didn't fill had a full complement of residents anyway, but no yoy wouldn't know if they SOAPed or rentered the match next year for people who already were in intern year. But you're right there are too many vacancies now and it will be impossible to sort that out

the spreadsheet made it clear who participated in the soap last year.

 

[RickyScott]

Lots of fmgs in transitional years, non categorical years would jump at chance for actual residency?

 

[evilbooyaa]

these spots will totally fill if the opportunity arises in the soap

RS is saying that places will fill outside the match in the year buffer between match day and the following year.

Perhaps and we can cross that bridge when we get to it, but let's at least consider some steps in the right direction.

 

[RadOncG]

Another interesting thread found this nugget:


Jordan Kharofa (PD I believe at U of Cincinnati) has already started this on twitter. Now we have 4 good guy PDs: Add on Albert Attia of Vanderbilt University

View attachment 285915

Can remove Jordan Kharofa from the list. He said if you did a 2 week radiation oncology rotation at some point (even if you were looking for an easy elective fourth year) then he will take you in the SOAP. He is clearly not sitting out of the SOAP.

 

[deleted774703]

Can remove Jordan Kharofa from the list. He said if you did a 2 week radiation oncology rotation at some point (even if you were looking for an easy elective fourth year) then he will take you in the SOAP. He is clearly not sitting out of the SOAP.

Realistically can remove all of them

CC, Mayo, Vandy, Cincinnati not the ones who won’t match

 

[medgator]

Realistically can remove all of them

CC, Mayo, Vandy, Cincinnati not the ones who won’t match

Yup. The shame list really should be focused on the newer smaller programs, although bigger programs aren't blameless re: expansion

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Former PD here. If memory serves the decision to participate in SOAP is made well in advance of reviewing applications; in August or so. These statements could be Match violations. Very easy to say one thing and do another.

Correcting above.

SOAP decision takes place as early as January but needs to be decided when quota is finalized.

Setting SOAP Participation Status

Guide to Setting SOAP Participation Status…

www.nrmp.org

My apologies.

 

[xrthopeful]

I mean multiple programs chose last year NOT to SOAP.

we have proof of this. This isn't some mystery or a lie.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Can remove Jordan Kharofa from the list. He said if you did a 2 week radiation oncology rotation at some point (even if you were looking for an easy elective fourth year) then he will take you in the SOAP. He is clearly not sitting out of the SOAP.

I mean... when most people say they won't SOAP they meant he people that have zero demonstrated rad onc interest. They won't soap the failed Ortho/ophtho/derm candidates into rad onc. Yes we can nitpick the details here, but these 5 have still done more than the rest of PDs to do...

 

[PhotonBomb]

Tendulkar has made clear he won't SOAP regardless. a few programs did this last year too.

 

[deleted774703]

I mean... when most people say they won't SOAP they meant he people that have zero demonstrated rad onc interest. They won't soap the failed Ortho/ophtho/derm candidates into rad onc. Yes we can nitpick the details here, but these 5 have still done more than the rest of PDs to do...

agree. They have made it socially acceptable to SOAP

that’s the first domino hopefully

I’m thinking of making a list of programs not to apply for students

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

I think the issue of SOAP is being oversimplified and the worst part of cancel culture is rearing its head on SDN.

I spent two decades as PD at two programs; out of the game for a few years now. I never had to SOAP/Scramble. I also have privately and publicly stated that we are training too many people (and have been for at least 5-10 years)

After reviewing the rules here is a synopsis.

Programs must decide by mid-February whether to participate in SOAP.

Programs must list their final quota (number of positions to fill) by mid-February as well.

SOAP only becomes operational if a specific program doesn't fill.

The decision to participate in SOAP doesn't obligate a program to rank anyone.

Many faculty are completely ignorant of the current churn despite PDs warning them of the possibility of lots of unfilled positions. Given the uncertainty in the current match a prudent PD would elect to participate in SOAP if only to see what the SOAP applicant pool looks like. As has been pointed out, last year some programs elected not to fill even though they participated in SOAP. I hope that many training programs are having the discussion-what happens if we don't fill.

Bottom line I think gaslighting programs according to whether they choose to participate in SOAP is unwise and unfair.

I do expect the number of unfilled positions to be between 45-65 (perhaps even more as the CMS supervision decision percolates). I expect many top applicants to dual apply ranking only top programs.

I fully expect to be shamed as a result of this post.

 

[xrthopeful]

The point is that a program can choose to enter the SOAP and still choose not to fill anyone. That's all that matters. The decision is made in real time in March whether to take someone or not.

done.

fin.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I think the issue of SOAP is being oversimplified and the worst part of cancel culture is rearing its head on SDN.

I spent two decades as PD at two programs; out of the game for a few years now. I never had to SOAP/Scramble. I also have privately and publicly stated that we are training too many people (and have been for at least 5-10 years)

After reviewing the rules here is a synopsis.

Programs must decide by mid-February whether to participate in SOAP.

Programs must list their final quota (number of positions to fill) by mid-February as well.

SOAP only becomes operational if a specific program doesn't fill.

The decision to participate in SOAP doesn't obligate a program to rank anyone.

Many faculty are completely ignorant of the current churn despite PDs warning them of the possibility of lots of unfilled positions. Given the uncertainty in the current match a prudent PD would elect to participate in SOAP if only to see what the SOAP applicant pool looks like. As has been pointed out, last year some programs elected not to fill even though they participated in SOAP. I hope that many training programs are having the discussion-what happens if we don't fill.

Bottom line I think gaslighting programs according to whether they choose to participate in SOAP is unwise and unfair.

I do expect the number of unfilled positions to be between 45-65 (perhaps even more as the CMS supervision decision percolates). I expect many top applicants to dual apply ranking only top programs.

I fully expect to be shamed as a result of this post.

Not at all. Always good to have somebody with a knowledge of the ACGME/RRC rules.

You may very well be correct, but I think this is semantics. What we care about is, as posted above, whether programs that fail to fill in the regular match (there is always a list somewhere of which programs were able to get more spots filled through the soap) fill their spots through the SOAP. That's not to say they aren't participating in the SOAP, but whether they are taking candidates from the SOAP. Some have insinuated they'll SOAP candidates that have RadOnc experience. Given how easy it will be to match this year there is unlikely to be a significant proportion of people that actually want to go into RadOnc that are left unmatched, regardless of whether they are DO or IMG/FMG.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

It was only just a few years ago that Cinci did not fill and SOAPED. they could easily not fill

 

[Mandelin Rain]

How about all the programs that fill outside of SOAP? Take a 2nd year IM or Surgery resident who hated internship. Take a international doc and put them on the boarding path. Etc... whatever...

 

[medgator]

How about all the programs that fill outside of SOAP? Take a 2nd year IM or Surgery resident who hated internship. Take a international doc and put them on the boarding path. Etc... whatever...

Used to happen, but afaik, don't all spots now have to go through SOAP as per recent nrmp regs the last several years?

Many of us got our spots completely outside the match in an era when RO was much harder to get into, pre SOAP

 

[RadOncMegatron]

I think we should give them a chance.

I mean... when most people say they won't SOAP they meant he people that have zero demonstrated rad onc interest. They won't soap the failed Ortho/ophtho/derm candidates into rad onc. Yes we can nitpick the details here, but these 5 have still done more than the rest of PDs to do...

I think we need to give these guys a chance. They at least are saying the right things publicly on record and we should give them our full support. Come March, we will see what happens, but they are at least putting their reputation on the line.

 

[deleted1002574]

The only thing that I’d shame you for @Chartreuse Wombat is using “gaslighting” incorrectly. If we were gaslighting then, we’d be psychologically manipulating them.

For example, this being the year where 150 US MDs, 38 FMGs, 13 dentists, 2 RTTs without an MD, and 3 convicted felons apply for 200 spots and PDs state “We’ve interviewed our best class ever.” That’s gaslighting

 

[goodbyeABR]

I think we should give them a chance.


I think we need to give these guys a chance. They at least are saying the right things publicly on record and we should give them our full support. Come March, we will see what happens, but they are at least putting their reputation on the line.

Agreed - looks like they're willing to put something more concretely in writing as well..

 

[RadOncG]

I mean... when most people say they won't SOAP they meant he people that have zero demonstrated rad onc interest. They won't soap the failed Ortho/ophtho/derm candidates into rad onc. Yes we can nitpick the details here, but these 5 have still done more than the rest of PDs to do...

Agree. Seems he has since clarified that University of Cincinnati will not participate at all in the SOAP. There will be exactly zero people with true radiation oncology interest that will not match so not sure why anyone needs qualifications on their no SOAP statements. A marginal dermatology candidate can do a 2 week radiation oncology elective and get a letter as a backup. That counts as "interest" in some of these "I will not SOAP unless.." statements.

 

[deleted774703]

One way to phrase the soap participation: 'we will only soap students who have 1. applied for radiation oncology through the regular match and 2. demonstrated an interest with letters and one month-long rotation.' anything less than this means that a derm applicant who considered rad onc and did a week long elective in third year could get a soap spot. which doesnt solve anything.

add rad onc research to that. These guys love research. Plus it would truly eliminate everyone from SOAP

 

[medgator]

add rad onc research to that. These guys love research. Plus it would truly eliminate everyone from SOAP

Bingo. Last decade, many of us didn't match after multiple interviews and research, back when there were half as many spots, of course

 

[seper]

I would trust anything that people say on RadOnc twitter. After all, they all have disclaimers in the bio.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Doesn't really matter what the PD says. The chair will tell him/her what will happen.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Doesn't really matter what the PD says. The chair will tell him/her what will happen.

KO will bend knee if mayo chair decides to take any warm body. After all, Rochester is pretty cold. Body gotta be warm