PAE vs TURP SDN Thread

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NDcienporciento100

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This post comes from the urology thread on SDN, would some IRs please come in on this one and post your thoughts.

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Not worth arguing on another specialties' SDN thread. The regular thread contributors will get offended and not entertain a genuine scientific debate.

My 2 cents are as follows:

1) TURP is the gold standard in the literature, but being the gold standard doesn't really mean much. To give an IR example, TACE is the gold standard therapy for BCLC stage B, but most people have switched to TARE given that it has equal benefits and with much fewer side effects. When I read new rad onc articles touting some of the benefits of SBRT over TACE I roll my eyes a bit. I'm sure Urologists do the same when they hear IRs comparing PAE to TURP.

2) The early results of PAE are undeniable. Roughly 85% short-term improvement and 75% long-term improvement in BPH symptoms, and low incidence and low grades of side-effects. Some of the early data for new urologic procedures (urolift, laser, etc) is also promising. All the data needs to be validated long-term. This will take a while.

3) It's not a perfect or permanent solution but -- speaking only for myself -- I'd rather have PAE done via a groin/wrist stick than having a trans-urethral procedure (whether it's TURP, Greenlight, Rezum, etc). And if PAE doesn't work, I can always still have the other trans-urethral procedures done. I personally think most men would feel that way if properly presented with the options. Just my opinion.

4) PAE is still in it's infancy and the outcomes will continue to get better as we improve technique, embolics, and learn the angiographic anatomy better.
 
Urologist happy to weigh in in your neck of the woods. When the data shakes out (and PAE certainly needs more/longer term), I see it as being A good option in the MIST (minimally invasive surgical therapy) arm, but far from THE option. To help contextualize I can explain how I tend to think about BPH treatments.

First is obviously meds. Combination therapy with alpha blocker and 5-ARI gives you about a 6 point IPSS reduction compared to 3-4 for placebo. So really not that impressive. They're cheap and worth a try because some will have a great response (and a 5ARI will shrink the prostate making other surgical therapies easier), but hardly a slam dunk. TBH my opinion is that meds are oversold, and there are a lot of men getting by on meds whose disease progresses to detrussor failure (or being older and a poor surgical candidate) at which point there is less we can do to help them.


Second is minimally invasive therapies, done in the office or under sedation. Urolift, Rezum, and I'd put PAE in this category as well. In general Urolift and rezum give you a 10-12 point IPSS reduction. PAE 6-12 depending on the series. As an aside I will say I find that variation significant. Why? Because Urolift or rezum are stupid easy for any Urologist. It's one of the technically simplest procedures we do. PAE is technically challenging, and it stands to reason that your results would thus be more dependent on the skills of the operator. Complication rate low, mostly post procedure LUTS and occasional retention. Both urolift and rezum actually have quite mature data, 6 year multi center randomized sham controlled trials. I expect (until the next thing comes out) that Urolift, Rezum, and PAE will all be viable options in this category. This is the category I'd recommend for most men with significant symptoms, but few signs of disease (highly elevated PVRs, urinary retention, UTI, bladder stones, etc.) Why? Because for whatever reason, these treatments are much better at treating subjective symptoms then they are at improving objective parameters like urine flow rates, PVRs, etc. They give 2/3 or more of the symptomatic benefit of TURP, but 1/3 the objective benefit, so not a great option for the 80 year old with catheter dependent chronic retention.

Third you have TURP, PVP, HoLEP, etc. IPSS reduction of 15 points. Much more impressive improvements in objective parameters. Procedures done under general or spinal, often an overnight admission, higher complication rate, though significant complication rate in modern series still very low. For example, having done a couple hundred I've never seen a transfusion, even though historic literature tells you a 3% transfusion rate.

Fourth you have the rare cases, the 200gm glands who need a simple prostatectomy (or HoLEP in very skilled hands). Rare enough to not really enter the discussion, but a potential use case for PAE if you have a guy with a huge gland whose not a great operative candidate

All this aside, to be perfectly blunt I just don't see PAE catching on as more then a niche procedure. The simple truth is that Urologists control those referral patterns, and won't refer away most men who could just as easily get a urolift with similar (better?) benefit. Furthermore it will be some time before most urologists would even have a local IR skilled in PAE. There will always be the guy who asks for it, or the one who really doesn't want a transurethral procedure, or the 200gm gland who can't tolerate general, etc, but on the whole it's hard to see it becoming too main stream when its' success depends on urologists giving away their cases. It's just human nature, I'm not arguing for it, but it is a simple truth. For the same reason I'm not bullish on the long term prospects for female urology vs. urogynecology. In the short term there is plenty of work for both, but if volume gets tight, who do you think the gynecologists (who are the primary referral source) will refer to: the gyn trained urogyn or the urology trained female urologist. Hint: its not us.
 
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I agree with most of the above points, thought I disagree with a few

1) Agree that PAE is in the minimally invasive category
2) Disagree with the IPSS reduction quoted. The range of IPSS improvement for PAE in the randomized trials to date range from 11-15 (Gao, Salem, UK-ROPE). And that doesn't include some studies like one by Carnivale that reported a 20+ improvement in IPSS score using the "PErFecTED" technique.
3) Agree that PAE is probably more technically challenging for an IR than Urolift or Rezum is for a urologist. But I'd point out that this is a completely new anatomy and pathology for IRs. As with other IR procedures (like IO liver therapies), once the technique is perfected, the angiographic variants are documented, etc. I think PAE will become easier.
4) Agree that some of the urology procedures mentioned have the benefit of being office-based.
5) Disagree that Rezum and Urolift have "mature" data - I'd argue that the data is no better/mature than PAE. I think all of them need further long-term investigation.
6) Agree that one of PAEs current strengths is for enlarged prostates (>100-120g). Though this is true partly because those are the only ones that IRs get to offer the procedure for.
7) Agree that urologists control the referral pattern. This is the biggest hindrance to most IR procedures.
 

 
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