I have seen some conflicting data on veterinary job growth. It seems there is an oversupply of private practice veterinarians but undersupply of public health/governmental positions? Can anyone expand on this? As Im sure most are aware, there are a lot of scary recent articles out there on rising debts/numbers of vets etc. (like the nytimes article). I know my state's vet school recently almost doubled its class size. Is there still job security/long-term stability for newbies hoping to become associates after grad? I know the rich vet is a myth but I'd like to think most are living comfortable middle class lives after the strenuous process and paying dues.
oversupply/job security
- Thread starter auguy13
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Jobs in desirable areas are increasingly difficult to find. However, far and away the biggest issue is student debt. If you're semi-keen and willing to work anywhere you'll get a job. The problem comes from paying off the debt...this is what will keep our generation of vets from achieving what our parents did. To be honest, most of us will achieve lower to middle income status at best unfortunately
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Debt, idk anymore. WIth IBR (income based repayment) of federal student loans, debt shouldn't crimp cash flow near as much as if you were actually trying to pay off the balance. But, fed student lending is probably going to get much tighter very soon; then what?
There are fields and places where it shouldn't be so bad. Theoretically, public health/govt is one of those fields... but you may be up against stiff competition from equally or better qualified applicants with PhD, MPH degree. And as far as places...check out this blog post on oversupply where I crunched a few numbers.
I'd put in the little shrugging/head scratching emoticon if I knew how.
There are fields and places where it shouldn't be so bad. Theoretically, public health/govt is one of those fields... but you may be up against stiff competition from equally or better qualified applicants with PhD, MPH degree. And as far as places...check out this blog post on oversupply where I crunched a few numbers.
I'd put in the little shrugging/head scratching emoticon if I knew how.
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There's a need for public health vets- not because there aren't enough people- it's because there isn't enough funding for the jobs. They mislead you into thinking there's a shortage of people qualified....not the case.
-DVM, MS, MPH
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Agreed. I wanted to be one of those public health vets, but the reports that I get back from my DVM/MPH and DVM/PhD friends who are stuck working in non-public-health fields (due to lack of available public health jobs) convinced me that I'd be silly to blow my money on on a public health degree. Does society theoretically need more public health vets? Absolutely. No one is willing to pay for them, though, so there aren't many positions available.... I know of more than a few public health vets now working in other fields.
There's not much job security for new graduate veterinarians at this time, but there are jobs out there. It's all just a question of what you're willing to tolerate.... you need to accept that you may be working a non-vet job until you can find your first veterinary position, and accept that your first few veterinary positions may be soul-crushing and unpleasant. After seven years of working miserable/crappy/abusive jobs, I've FINALLY found a great position in a small animal practice that I love. It took a while, but I'm starting to think that maybe I did make the right decision on becoming a veterinarian after all.
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This makes me really happy to read. I know you've been struggling for a while but it sounds like you've found your place
Very inaccurate. And the biologist one is a lie too!
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As someone who is changing careers and entering the field of vet medicine, I am really scared to ask, but what do you mean by soul crushing? how much of that is actually out there? is that a typical experience for vets?
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It has certainly been typical for me - being worked to death, treated like dirt - having clinic owners who make fun of what you were taught in vet school and insist that you practice their way (a way that you were taught was substandard at best in vet school) - implying that if you are not willing to stay late every day (without extra pay) that you are not really a dedicated veterinarian when all they are really doing is exploiting you. There's a reason there are so many small vet practices out there - associates come to realize that the only way to practice the way they were taught is to go out on their own. I've had bosses that repeatedly questioned my correct diagnoses in a belittling way (in front of vet assistants) and never apologized when I turned out to be right. When you do the slightest thing wrong (nothing that endangers an animal - something like not cleaning a table in the treatment area within 5 minutes of using it because you had to talk to an owner), they will scream bloody murder at you (in front of everyone), but if you do your first cystotomy (removing a mass as well as stones) while they are on vacation and it is a blazing success, they will not even acknowledge it. When a client comes in and refuses to see you because you are "new and inexperienced" but they have a dog with possible xylitol poisoning and your boss knows nothing about it, he asks you to tell him everything you know - he then goes into the exam room, regurgitates word for word what you told him and never gives you any credit for it - the client never knows you're the one who had the expertise and your boss doesn't even thank you for it. That's what is meant by soul-crushing and there's a lot of it (in general practice anyway). When the economy goes south, these are the places that are hiring... And when you have a lot of debt, you can feel trapped in places like this because there's nowhere else to go. And, as far as government jobs go, the only real shortage is in food inspection (slaughterhouse work) - and the reason they are short of vets is that it is a crappy job with a capital C. I sent away for information on it once and the job/work environment description was horrendous. I earned an MPH degree because I believed the lies about there being jobs available for public health vets - the only jobs out there are in slaughterhouses. If that's what you want to do, great - you'll be all set. But if you want to work with emerging/zoonotic illness, forget about it - I once applied for a position with my state government for an entry-level public health job dealing with zoonotic disease - I graduated with honors from vet school and graduated summa cum laude with my MPH degree and I didn't even get an interview - what they are looking for, I have no clue, but it's not veterinarians with MPH degrees.
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The only way you'll live a middle class life is if you marry well - depressing, but true - most honest vets will tell you that rich or well-off vets did not make their money in veterinary medicine, but in stock investing or in real estate on the side.
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God, I am so sorry about your experience. Sounds absolutely horrid. This owner sounds like a real a&*hole and I know what you mean about feeling stuck b/c of bills and debt. Could you have gone to a different city or state to practice? was that an option at all? Reading about these types of experiences really really scares me. I am a vegetarian so forget about the slaughterhouse work! I would rather cut my own throat. I work as an engineer in a stable company, but have hated it since the minute I started. I am pretty good at sciences and especially biology and have always loved working with and helping animals. I got a BS in biology while working. That's why I thought a career in vet medicine would be a good choice. I am really hesitant to take on $150K+ in debt and have to deal with experiences like this at the end. Are there any vets out there that actually enjoy what they do? I have been coming to this forum about a year now and have yet to see someone who is actually happy with their choice.
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I've had some similar experiences. It all depends on where you end up.
99% true. I do know a vet who is a millionaire who opened up his own specialty center. He was one of the first specialists in his field too. But that was 30 years ago, when doing something like that was economically possible for one man and he grew it right when the specialty field was taking off. So, nowadays even that route is closed for the youngest generation given the prevalence of specialty centers.
The biggest earners in vet med are NOT practitioners or even clinic owners nowadays, they're in corporate/big pharma or frankly, have switched careers as I know now a few.
Also, 100% correct on the fake shortage of vets thing. Its' ridiculous how schools sell that to unsuspecting students. I know 5 DVM/MPH or DVM/PhD classmates. None are working in the public health field because there are no jobs. They told me to have a realistic chance of getting a public health job they need 2-3+ years of more specialized training of some sort. None were willing to put up with the lies anymore so they're all stuck in Banfield or some other place. I feel bad they we sold such lies.
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Stahl, out of curiosity? He's great.
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Sorry for the delay in responding.... I just now saw this.
I'm currently on my 5th job (have been there for six months) and it is absolutely amazing. My first four jobs, though, can be summed up as follows...
Job #1: Great staff, but the owner was absolutely psycho. Temper tantrums, constantly criticizing my approaches instead of offering mentoring/guidance (this was a clinic in a low-income area and I was used to doing things the ivory tower vet-school way... so I definitely could have used some tips, but instead of offering productive feedback she constantly went behind my back), and a lot of questionable medicine (dental extractions done with the saw blade on a dremmel because we didn't have an appropriate drill). Talked about me behind my back, yelled and me and the support staff regularly. Stayed there for six months. Only lasted that long because the owner's husband (also a vet) was a supernice guy and did provide a lot of encouragement.... when I left, he called me on his cell phone one evening to say that I was a great vet and not to take her treament of me personally because she had a lot of issues. They have since divorced, which is good because he's a nice guy and she's absolutely crazy
Job #2: Great fellow associate docs, but another mentally unstable boss (he knew the first boss - she was former employee of his - and told me when I came to work for him that he knew she was mentally unstable.... apparently it takes one to know one!!) and a very unhealthy clinic dynamic. I was there for almost three years. Just a few random examples, though this list is by no means exhaustive:
- I (along with several other employees) witnessed a vet assistant being really rough with a puppy. When the puppy refused to walk on a leash and laid down on the floor (not yet leash-trained), the assistant dragged it across the clinic by its slip lead (the dog just laying limp at the end of the leash) instead of just picking it up. When I said something to him about it, he bent over, picked the puppy up very roughly/harshly, and then threw it down when he got to where he was going. When a fellow associate and I went to our boss about this, he defended the tech and told us we needed to mind our own business.
- Boss practiced poor medicine and misled his clients. Lots of shotgun therapy without diagnostics, and any case that stumped him was diagnosed with 'cancer' and he recommended euthanasia instead of referral.
- Insubordinate head tech. I once asked her to read a fecal while I typed up a record and dispensed some meds for a pet. Her response (from the stool where she was sitting, not doing anything) was "you d*mn lazy doctors need to learn to read your own d*mn fecals." Again, went to boss and she was defended - I was told I was too uptight and needed to recognize a joke. Ummm... if it was a joke, wouldn't she have said it AS she went to read the fecal?
- Boss's favorite quotes were "zoom, zoom!" and "get em in, get em out." We saw scheduled appts plus a heavy load of walk ins. Some days were okay, but others were insanely busy. We had to see patients in order of arrival and weren't show preference for appts, so clients were constantly angry that they were having to wait 1-2 hours past their scheduled appt time. Very stressful environment.
- Boss had definite mental illness. Accused me once of not working hard enough one morning.... when I then showed him that I had seen 8 or 9 patients in a 1.5 hour period, he didn't believe me and went back to check each chart behind me. He later came to me and said "the devil was telling him to fire me" but he had "decided to let me live." Needless to say, I started sending out resumes that night.
Job #3: Actually a really nice/caring/friendly boss, although we practiced VERY different styles of medicine. Really sweet, albeit poorly trained, vet assistants. The clinic was operated as a low-cost/high-volume clinic, and I was expected to see anywhere from 4-8 patients per hour. Clients rarely had money for workup, so we performed a lot of potentially-unnecessary euthanasias. Also, our euthanasia price was low so we had a lot of pets brought in who had never been to a vet before and the client just wanted to drop them off for euthanasia - I wasn't allowed to say no to these. That really started to wear on me over time, and the clinic also started to struggle financially so my pay was cut. That led to me changing jobs after just over a year.
Job #4: Corporate hell at a chain of clinics that is located inside a major pet store. Not so terrible when I started, because our Medical Director recognized the corporate BS for what it was and mainly stayed out of our way and let us do our own thing (also protecting us from our money-hungry Field Director), but things became worse when they replaced him with someone who believed in doing things more 'by the book.' Examples:
- Constant emphasis on Average Patient Charge (how much $$ is spent per visit... and when, for example, rechecks are done at no charge for most patients, it would seem to me that having a low APC on rechecks would be a GOOD thing because it means your treatments are working! Instead, you were criticized for not finding other things to 'sell' at that visit or finding additional tests/treatments to recommend.)
- Other BS metrics like "Dental Penetration" (what percentage of pets over a given age you did dental cleanings on), "Heartworm Penetration" (percent of clients that leave their visits with you with HW prevention, regardless of whether they may already have it at home or be getting it elsewhere), "Wellness Plan Penetration" (what % of clients you were able to enroll on their wellness plans - which are a compete ripoff for the client)
- Push to recommend unnecessary procedures, ie "all dogs over one year old should receive an annual dental cleaning." Sure, SOME 1 year old dogs probably need annual dentals, but I don't think you can make that a blanket recommendation. Also, lots of "required" testing if bloodwork parameters were slightly off.... it's normal for a small percent of healthy patients to have slight bloodwork abnormalities, but if a value was even one point out of the normal range there were a lot of expensive tests that we were required to recommend).
- Not allowed to turn away any walk ins, even if they walk in right at closing. (Lots of non-emergency things would come in because their regular vet was closed and they knew we couldn't turn them away, like a dog that has had an ear infection for weeks.) Also, the emphasis on keeping the schedule full (appts every 15 min) and not turning away walk-ins made for some ridiculously busy days. Not only stressful for the whole team (especially given how few staff members you're allowed to have working per doctor), but also results in an inability to provide quality care.
- Ridiculous, indefensible overcharging. Our surgical estimates were consistently higher than our local specialty hospital.... so most of my patients who needed surgeries either had it done there or at other high-quality local clinics that I recommended. Surely I would have been 'punished' for this, but I guess the boss never found out. It was depressing, though, to have to turn away all of the interesting cases.
- Poorly trained staff with high turnover.
- Long hours (technically 9am-7pm with a 1-hr lunch but more often 9am-8/9pm with no lunch, and only closed 2 days/year).
There's more, but it's making my blood boil just thinking about it so I think I'll quit
So, here I am, 7 years out and on job #5.... but I've finally found someplace that I'm enjoying. Amazing bosses, great clients, fabulous staff, good work-life balance, and fair pay. Good jobs do exist, but they are definitely few and far between!! (As evidenced by all of the envious comments I get from vet school classmates whenever I post anything about my job!!)
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Sorry for the delay in responding.... I just now saw this.
I'm currently on my 5th job (have been there for six months) and it is absolutely amazing. My first four jobs, though, can be summed up as follows...
There's more, but it's making my blood boil just thinking about it so I think I'll quit
So, here I am, 7 years out and on job #5.... but I've finally found someplace that I'm enjoying. Amazing bosses, great clients, fabulous staff, good work-life balance, and fair pay. Good jobs do exist, but they are definitely few and far between!! (As evidenced by all of the envious comments I get from vet school classmates whenever I post anything about my job!!)
Thank you so much for posting this. I am not a young 20ish year old that has no clue about the real world and only thinks about the ideals of being a vet. I need to very seriously weigh the pros and cons in the real world. Going to vet school and learning how to save an animals life is indescribable and amazingly rewarding. BUT there is so much that goes into a profession and life beyond the ideals. Real life has bad bosses, bills, student debt, sickness, family, insurance, retirement, time needed to re-energize,... For every good post I have seen here, there are about 10 unhappy people. That should tell you something.
Also, in case anyone is interested AVMA's finding on supply and demand based on real statistics, it is posted here:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Reports/Documents/Veterinarian-Workforce-Final-Report-LowRes.pdf
If you want to skip the general and get to the conclusion, scroll down to page 62 on summary. Doesn't paint a pretty picture.
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What's interesting is that back in 2010ish, roughly the same conclusions were reached in another report that completely negated the pre-2008 estimates of serious shortages of vets in virtually all areas in 10-15 years time. It was either that report or another one soon after that admitted the pre-2008 projections were completely and utterly wrong.
Here we are, 4 years later, and none of the "top brass" at the academic, government, or AVMA level have done anything to address the problem. Complacency? Impotence? Corruption? I have no idea.
I say "anything" because since then, 3-4 new AVMA accredited schools (some auxilliary) have been opened up and/or approved for launch within a year, class sizes have increased in most schools since then, and tuition has increased as well. We will have more vets than ever before graduating in the next 10 years, with no room and no demand for them in any sector. If they, those who can do something, have done anything, it clearly hasn't worked.
Furthermore, the number of DVMs seeking specialties for intellectual and/or financial reasons has increased significantly in the newest generation of vets. I think that's a very good thing from an intellectual and medical perspective. However, the demand isn't there for such an increase of specialty services and practitioners, mainly due to prohibitive costs (people love their dogs but not a lump sum of $5,000 worth of tests kind of love).
I know of a recent neurologist grad who couldn't find a position in her specialty for quite some time. Had to work as a glorified general practitioner (with no concomitant pay increase) for quite some time as the few job openings in her field are so overcrowded. Finally got a position in her field but with a deep pay cut. I know of relatively recent grad GPs (associates) making more than her.
This is another thing that's rarely mentioned, as more specialists have been churned out, starting salaries for their fields have dropped upwards of 50% in some cases. It's ridiculous for them, given how much they have put in, but the market dictates the salary, not my opinion. Some specialists (large animal therio) make significantly less than GP's in urban small animal private practice.
This profession, 100%, will collapse as dentistry did in the '80s, and most recently law, unless drastic changes are made within the next 5 years tops. It's the same story, different professional initials after the name. Oversupply with not enough demand. History does repeat itself.
Oh, and the same story goes for vet techs and vet assistants. That's right, vet assistants. There are even "educational" programs now churning out vet assistants of all things!!! They pay $10,000-15,000 or so for a 9 month "training" program. How will they repay their loans on $10/hr cleaning kennels? I used to be a vet assistant before becoming a vet; in one week I got all the job training I ever needed on site. This medical sphere is being robbed bottom up.
No. I'd rather be careful outing who this is...
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It's ok, we can both drop the ruse
It's me, I know. I made millions creating the new field of zombie pet medicine via pathology.I knew it was you! I had an idea of how to become rich too: I could sell serial dilutions of oddly named inorganic substances to non-existent quantities and subject them to succussion in order to help heal pets via non-Newtonian quantum vibrational frequencies of water memory.
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I worked with a vet who did that. Zero percent of the time it worked EVERY time.
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In case anyone is interested, here is a very good article on the future market of veterinary medicine ( and some other similar medical fields in trouble) from New England J. of medicine:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1310778
It argues that if applicants become more aware of the lack of return for their educational investment, the number of applicant will eventually drop and the schools have to reduce the cost of education. It appears to me that men have already realized this imbalance in debt: income ratio and the number of male applicants has been continually decreasing. In contrasts, females continue to apply to these programs and for some reason do not consider the consequences on their financial future.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1310778
It argues that if applicants become more aware of the lack of return for their educational investment, the number of applicant will eventually drop and the schools have to reduce the cost of education. It appears to me that men have already realized this imbalance in debt: income ratio and the number of male applicants has been continually decreasing. In contrasts, females continue to apply to these programs and for some reason do not consider the consequences on their financial future.
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If you've been around here long enough, you'll know that no matter how crappy the income to debt ratio is, so long as there is guaranteed loans with a nebulous loan forgiveness program that keeps sounding like it'll get better and better, the schools will have a steady stream of applicants. Perhaps the quality of students/ ambition of students to continue to finish their degrees may be going down as it sounds like many schools have higher attrition rates now than before, at least anecdotally. But last I heard, admission rates overall is still hovering at ~50% (total applicants/total seats), similar rate as medical schools. I haven't looked into it in the past couple of years after more schools have been accredited, so this number might actually be lower.
I don't think it's so much that men are somehow more savvy and "realize it" so much as expectations of our sexist society makes it such that this type of sacrifice/pursuit is unacceptable for them.
You mean to earn a decent living without having to struggle through 30 years of loan repayments is a "sexist" expectation of society? I think it's called logical.
This is 100% true. Only recently graduated, entered med school before the bubble burst. After the bubble burst I surreptitiously actually got a list of all the grades of all the students for all classes below me and looked through it. In comparison to our class, I was mouth agape shocked at the horrid grades most students had, literally C, Ds, and Fs for the same classes/teachers for the majority of the students. As you'd expect, there were massive curves to keep numbers up.
I asked the professor whose office I saw the list in what was happening, because while our class (we posted grades publicly with private ID numbers) had a few bad apples, it wasn't this bad at all.
He flat out said they had to drop admissions standards to get more students in for funding reasons (while they were raising tuition, as well) as a result of the tank in the economy. I had this confirmed by a good dozen other professors/clinicians privately as well. They didn't need to confirm it, I saw it in the underclassmen myself.
P.S. IMO, the (overall) smartest generation of vets all graduated pre-mid 90s, before the financial situation of salary to loan repayment ratio started to become utterly unbalanced, rightfully driving away quality applicants.
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Uh-huh...
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Trust me, US government doesn't do anything nebulous-ly. It is very well planned and calculated. The reason it seems nebulous to you and I , is because its a trap and intentionally so. There is really no absolute forgiveness. That amount that is forgiven is considered income. If you do the IBR or PAYE, you will not even touch the interest over the 25 year period. That way, the principal+ interest grows to more than $400K. Now, if its forgiven(or income), you will end up paying taxes on something around $400+K, which is roughly $150-200K-ish. Now, how much do you have to save every month over the 25 year period to save this amount? this is on top of the regular monthly loan payment. Vet salaries are not high enough to keep up. I analyze and do numbers for a living. This is a system that is very likely destined to fail. The sad thing is that schools, banks and government they all come out of this winners. The only one who loses big time is the student. The only solution is that either we, the students, wake up to the financial reality of this and stop applying to schools until something is done to correct the problem, OR increase our return (i.e. ask for more money in exchange for our skills). The market can not economically support the 2nd option for now and therefore, the only feasible solution is the first.
My thoughts on the 2nd issue, I don't think society is sexist to that extent. I think men in general (not always) are more driven by the practicality of things, while women are more emotionally driven and emotions can make you overlook or deny reality. Its an evolutionary trait. I think there is also an age factor. Majority of vet students are below 30 years of age and even though they know the situation is not good, they are not fully aware of the financial consequences. They do not realize at some point they will feel the need to put down roots, buy a house, feel secure and stable for a change, maybe have a family, prepare for things that life throws at you, like sickness, save for retirement, etc. These are not tangible issues for most people in their 20s. I know it was not an issue for me back then, and to my experience working with a lot of undergrads is not a tangible issue for them.
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It is amazing how this obvious logic is veiled and ignored under a mountain of false promises....
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You totally missed my point... Though perhaps I didn't convey it well. I'm fully aware of everything you've said here, and have been since this loan forgiveness crap started in the first place. Please stop with the condescending attitude that you are the only wise beacon of light for the financial disaster that is this profession, and quit assuming that only you understand what is going on. These topics have been discussed ad nauseam over the past 3-4 years on these forums. Trust me, you are not the first person to realize pretty much everything you've been yammering on about since you've gotten your acceptance.
My point is simply that as long as there are essentially unlimited amounts of loans available (i.e. if present lack if funds do not prevent matriculation), a huge proportion of applicants will not be deterred by looming debt. People always think that they will somehow be okay. Especially so when attractive phrases like "loan forgiveness" are thrown around. Even if they kind of get that $300k is not an amount they could ever pay back with the average vet salary (not even taking into consideration job shortages), there's this underlying attitude that "we can't all be this screwed." Even when you bring in facts, numbers, and a good collection of anecdotes of struggling new grads, a good number of prevets will dismiss it, or even if they sort of get the gravity of the situation, will keep at it because they don't know what else to do.
Ok, then why don't you be the first to take a stand and not attend vet school. Write a letter to the schools saying you will not be attending until 'they do something' about it. Yep, didn't think so. So why are you asking others to essentially do that? Plus, what are the schools going to do about it anyway?
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Wow, you are a pretty angry and rude person...thank you for allowing me to do and say things here. You must feel pretty insecure if you think what I say is directed at you. Don't take out your frustration out on this forum. They got kickboxing classes for that! Until about a year ago, I knew the situation was bad but was not fully aware of the gravity of it. I am making a general statement and analysis, because I can not possibly understand how someone could know about this situation and still decides to attend vet school. I will take a stand and that is precisely why I will not have to live at poverty level for the rest of my life because I chose to bury my head in the sand. Good luck with that attitude in this career and in life!
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Agreed. I'm not sure why this poster seems intent on continuing to beat a horse that we have beaten here for years, and acts like we have no idea what a club is. The answer to this dilemma is not throwing up our hands and refusing to attend school. There will be hundreds waiting to take our place. Strikes only work when they cripple the industry in which they take place. A great deal of this is simply due to scholastic and economic climates that are beyond the control of any group of professional students, unless you suggest that we can make the government put caps on tuition. What we do need is more active lobbying from the younger generation of vets. There is a smattering of old-timers who are busting their asses to bring these topics to light in the AVMA, but they are being overwhelmed by the bureaucracy. Let's get things straight about the AVMA though : the AVMA can only do so much. The AVMA cannot make vet schools place caps on tuition. The AVMA cannot control class sizes. They can speak out against it, but they do not have the authority to change that. It will take a huge upheaval of the American postgraduate educational system to accomplish what needs to be done. Getting the word out via our respective professional associations is Step 1. Step 2 is potentially taking it to a state and federal government level. But I have a feeling this is just going to be a story of unsustainability. It will crest, break, and retreat. We need to prepare for it as well as fight against it, if that makes sense.
That is an laughably superficial (and incorrect) view of why the demographics of veterinary medicine have been changing over the past few decades.
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I have not been around this forum for the past 4 years and over the last year or two, I only found a couple of threads that really discussed these issues. People who have graduated or are in the midst of it, probably know this already, so this is not directed at them really. I think if these posts are more frequent and out in the open, it may help provide the correct information to those on the edge. It seems to me that no one is really willing to discuss the real problems openly. People keep PMing me about this. Why not discuss it out in the open???If you have a problem with my posts, don't read it. Free country! If I had really known the gravity of this situation, I would not even consider wasting time and money applying to vet school. I thought the program was a challenge like any other professional degree, but I am sorry, the way the data are presented, this profession is in deep trouble. I also disagree and think AVMA could do more. Their recent finding was vague and did not really address the issue. At the very least, they could stop accrediting more universities. Who is financially benefiting from all of this? not us, that's for damn sure.
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I can assure you, it has been discussed at length out in the open. We have actually had pre-vets come in here and tell us we are all too negative and are painting a too-bleak picture, FFS. I have been involved in almost all of these discussions over the past 4+ years when they started to become more common, I should know. Not all of them had their own threads, a lot of them actually grew within threads with different original subjects. So if you are only searching by thread title, it's not going to show you all the pertinent results.
Where did I say they couldn't do more? I was delineating what they can and cannot do, not what they should do.
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Well, I only saw a handful. I will do more searches. Pre-vets can be a bit starry-eyed so this forum probably scared the crap out of them!
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It tends to come up inevitably whenever discussions about new schools are started, as well.
The recent thread on Lincoln U comes to mind: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lincoln-memorial-university.1010139/
Many of them are also in pre-vet, by the way. This section isn't as heavily frequented, although there are some good threads here.
The recent thread on Lincoln U comes to mind: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lincoln-memorial-university.1010139/
Many of them are also in pre-vet, by the way. This section isn't as heavily frequented, although there are some good threads here.
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Oh my bad, I didn't realize that when you started a long condescending explanation of the loan forgiveness program in response to something I said, and started it with "you" that you were actually referring to all the other yous out there that didn't include me... Anyhoos, sorry it hurt your feelings (and I sincerely mean that). I hope you do realize that I was merely trying to explain to you WHY people continue to apply to vet schools, regardless of whether it makes sense for them to or not. Like WTF said, these discussions have been going on and on and on for the past 4 years, with the idea that it would be nice to get the word out there for people considering vet school. But the overwhelming response tends to be "STFU you negative nancy, I'm going no matter what, and your doomsday speak is not helpful." I honestly don't care at all, and actually encourage you to bring up these topics, since continued discussion is a great thing. It's just annoying that just because you've recently stumbled upon this issue, you talk like it must be a novel issue for the forum. It's just not. And it's doubly annoying when you step on the soapbox as "a mature and worldly person, unlike the young 20-something year olds" etc... in delivering this message that everyone already knows. Obviously, there is wisdom to be gained as you live through life in the "real world" and that's very much appreciated, but I think it's the way you went about it that rubbed me the wrong way. But don't worry, it's not like the discussion of this issue is dead. I can assure you it will flare up the next time a newbie says something about how awesome it is that their state school is adding more seats, or that they're going to do fine because they'll specialize or because there's a need for rural/large animal vets, or because they're not going into clinical practice.
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Gfa, I have to agree with Minnerbelle and WTF here. It seems like you have suddenly taken special attention to this situation that a lot of us already do know about and have talked about it ad nauseam. It isn't something any of us would really discourage. We think it is good to discuss the issue at hand. But the condescending attitude you have portrayed in your posts to discuss this with is what is not appreciated. I get that I am only some "mid-20 something" but I am well aware of the issue at hand. I have even tried to explain it to some of the current pre-vets, one of them even jumped onto me into particular and told me that I was being too negative. That is the current attitude and response we get back from pre-vets that wear rose-coloured glasses all the time. We are told we are negative and have a mentality of "I've got my spot, so screw you." None of which is true, but after being here on these forums for a number of years, the last year or two has had the most discussion on this topic and you can't really get anywhere when the generally mentality from those we are trying to explain the issue to is, "GTFO with your negative attitude, I don't care what you say." Also, the AVMA can only do so much, unfortunately. Yes they could probably do more now, but with schools threatening to sue them for not accrediting them, I don't see anything changing anytime soon.
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This is so very far from true. Really, do some research on when the shift from more males to more females started. It was long before there was any economic crisis in the profession.
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The gender shift has much more to do with the decline of the farm animal medicine in favor of small animal medicine. In addition to all of the other factors like more women going to college, entering graduate school, delaying children, etc. Not any sort of financial knowhow.
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This. I used to have to hard-on hate for the AVMA, and in some ways still do, but I've met more and more fellow clinicians who are actually really trying to make a different behind the scenes there. There are people trying, just not enough.
The AVMA just can't go around refusing accreditation without expecting huge backlash, sadly. Their job is to evaluate and accredit. They're like a DMV. If I go to the DMV with all my information, forms, pass the driving and eye test, they cannot say "Well, we don't want any more women on the roads because y'all are ****ty drivers, so we're not going to give you your license" and show me the door.
This is true. But who sets the standards for accreditation? I could be utterly in the wrong here, but always thought it was the AVMA.
In any case, whoever sets them, the standards in veterinary school are laughably low in so many different respects compared to human medical school. There is no good intellectual/medical reason to not up the standards to improve quality of care, research, etc, but every financial reason not to do so and that is what's driving this profession into the ground. With money issues aplenty, quality applicants are driven away, which only exacerbates the intellectual/medical issues in our profession.
Since the AVMA doesn't have either the authority and/or balls to appropriately up the standards they are either impotent, corrupt, or useless (or all three).
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The AVMA has had the balls to not give accreditation to certain schools, then the schools went and filed a lawsuit against them. The schools also need to cooperate and stop being asshats about getting accreditation before any real improvement will be made.
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The AVMA does set accreditation standards. That's doesn't refute my comparison above. They can't just go around refusing to accredit schools that meet all the requirements just because they don't want more schools. They don't have the authority. It is a lack of power issue, not a lack of balls issue.
That being said, I'm sure as heck not paying dues anymore. They do nothing for me and their insurance is overpriced anyway.
What are these intellectual/medical issues? Are vet classes getting stupider and more incompetent because the cream of the crop has been driven away due to finances? Do you have actual evidence of this?
We will NEVER be able to have the same standard of care as MDs, because clients won't pay for it. Pure and simple.
As far as I know, that was because the schools were not up to the standards and/or didn't have teaching hospitals.
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Yup, it was Western. They were denied for not having a teaching hospital, then threw a fit and filed a lawsuit. The lawsuit claimed that the AVMA were discriminating against their "unique" way of teaching and that they were being bullies as the sole accreditation authority. Seems that the AVMA just gave them what they wanted to avoid the lawsuit issues. So, maybe the AVMA should have held their ground, but had Western won the lawsuit, would have probably been a bigger nightmare for the AVMA. They were suing them for quite a bit of money along with making them give them accreditation.
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Agreed, it was kind of a bad situation all around with blame on both sides.
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Regarding class sizes. It seems silly to me that a programs accreditation is not for a specific class size. A program can be accredited when it has 60 students, and the next year double its class size to 120, and it will be 6 more years before anyone ever looks at the program again to ensure it can provide an appropriate educational experience for the number of students it has.
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I honestly think it's a conflict of interest when our national advocacy/membership organization is in the business of accrediting schools at all. How can they properly look out for the profession if they are required to bring new schools/more graduates to market?
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I completely agree. I think class size should absolutely be taken into account.
I don't think stripping the AVMA of its accrediting ability is the way to go. I think changing (i.e. raising them and making them more specific) standards will be the best way to separate the chaff from the wheat and prevent a huge influx of new slapdash schools.
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So a part of me is really upset about this situation, the poor outlook for graduating vets, the abysmal debt:salary ratio, the opening of new schools, etc. Like I want to do something about it, start a petition for vet students or something. But at the same time, I am graduating with less than IS tuition debt (I know, I'm sorry--family inheritance that came at the right time) and will probably be going into a field where there is an abundance of jobs right now. My thoughts then turn to--if other people don't care about this stuff (ie, my classmates, SAVMA, the AVMA), then why should I? Like why should I be the one to do the legwork if other people don't care and it doesn't really affect me? I don't know. Sigh...
