Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (OMS)

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I know...I keep posting questions. I just really want to know what you all think about this:

Let's discuss the differences (pros/cons) of the single and dual degree programs. Not considering program length of course. That's a given...

I want a dual degree but I wonder what you all think.
I know the MD will give me more freedom to expand my practice...but what else. All of the OMS I have spoken to endorse the dual degree...even single degree surgeons!

Thanks
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I know OMFS residencies can be very challenging to get matched, only 165 seats matched with 176 seats available this past NMS cycle. Out of the 305 total applicants applied in 2004, only 247 applicants were ranked at least by one OMFS residency program (considered "acceptable applicant"), leaving 58 applicants deemed by ALL OMFS residency programs "no good" and didn't even ranked them! At the end, only 165 out of 247 "acceptable applicants" matched (67% ranked matched) leaving 82 "acceptable applicants" nothing! Further, out of the 165 matched applicants, only 114 applicants were 2004 graduates and the remainder 51 matched applicants were from previous graduation years (either did a year of OMFS internship, GPR, AEGD, and general practice after graduation)!

So based on this past year's OMFS matching statistics, roughly only 69% (114/165) of the match applicants are graduating seniors from 2004! If you go by the applied/matched ratio, sure it looks great, every 1.54 applicants apply, 1 will get matched (54% of applicants get matched), but my concerns is out of the 165 matched applicants, how many are not in the TOP TEN of their class?

We've heard OMFS applicants matched with NBDE Part I overall score below a 90 (85, 86, 89, etc.), but any stories about your classmates getting matched who's ranking are in the TOP 20% or TOP 1/3 of their class? At Nova, 2 out of 3 Class of 2004 seniors matched this past NMS cycle, but both who matched were in the TOP 10% of their class. The one who didn't match was also in the TOP 10% of their class!

I realize that OMFS residency programs will look at the whole entire picture meaning applicant's experiences/exposure to research, undergraduate records, externships, leadership, publish papers, presenting posters, extracurriculurs and/or community services, but numbers especially class ranking is pretty huge isn't it?

So, I impart to you this question, any success stories you know FOR FACT (i.e. your own classmates or recent graduates) that matched who was ranked in the TOP 20% or even TOP 1/3 of their class?

:confused:

[All statistics were gathered from NMS official website for 2004 application cycle]
 
Great stats Yah...way helpful. Sorry, but since I don't have any classes ahead of me I don't know anyone who has matched in OMS.
 
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For dental schools, there are "pre-dental societies" in most schools because admissions is an arduous process, and that a group of people with a common goal with a convenient forum to share information is very useful.

I really think that we should start a "pre-OMS" society going, preferably nationally. I know that the kids from Harvard and Columbia are looked upon very favorably year after year from OMS programs because of their medical school backgrounds. For most of us who don't attend those 2 schools, we've had to do extra things to prepare ourselves to become strong applicants for OMS.

I'm currently finishing my second year of dental school, and will be taking a year off dental school next year to be a Howard Hughes Research Scholar at the NIH. I'll be applying in 2007. I'd like to join forces with others who may share my vision in starting a nation-wide pre-OMS society.

From my participation in a lot of conferences since dental school began, I feel that they are certainly conducive forums for the exchange of information, innovation, and inspiration. Imagine if we could someday have a pre-OMS conference where we can all gather and organize ourselves into a recognizable force. Not only can we share info amongst each other, we can invite residents to come and speak for us, and potentially professors as well. Furthermore, we can become a valuable adjunct to AAOMS.

Ultimately, the greatest thing is that you get to meet your future colleagues early, and to build professional liasons and friendships that will last a lifetime. Imagine when you go to a certain school to do an externship and need a place to crash. Someday you may be able to first think, "let me contact the pre-OMS people in that school." Imagine if useful information will now come by way of national newsletters -- data, stats, success stories, etc. Heck, just imagine partying with pre-OMS people at our conferences.

I genuinely hope that there are those of you out there who will be interested in starting this with me. As pioneers we may not be the group that gets the most reward, but we'll have the most fun. Certainly, if I get into an OMS program, I'd return year after year to talk to the pre-OMS kids.

I have the vision, and I also have the ideas to make it work (in terms of funding and organization to get this thing off the ground).

If I receive encouraging responses from people, I will begin suggest my step-by-step plan to the culmination of our first national conference in 2005.

Let's get started.

Stanley Liu ([email protected])
 
Standford:

I, too, have thought about that, but it would be difficult to get one established nationally. It would be cool to get sponsored by AAOMS. It would also be difficult to have Association/Society meetings because we would all have to coordinate our schedules.

I thought about creating a smaller production, a simple Oral Surgery Club here at my dental school, but thinking of it, there will only be 3 or 4 of us in the club! Most dental students don't know what they're going to do after dental school. There are very few of us that already know that we want OMFS for sure!

I say if you want to get something started, count me in. I'm sure we'll have no problems recruiting and we can have club delegates at each school that are responsible for passing on information and recruiting. Membership dues will be necessary and we can have annual meetings where we have at least one OMFS residency Chair and/or Director to come and speak to us.

Should we include Pre-dental students or no? Should we implement a GPA cutoff for membership? Lets brainstorm for the club name....

American Pre-OMFS Society (APOMS)
American Pre-OMFS Association (APOMSA)
Pre-OMFS Club of America (POMSCA)

Man, I say we do it and do it big! Dues, requirements, positions, websites, at least one delegate per dental school....

:thumbup: :thumbup:
 
Stanford and Yah-E,
I had thought about doing a club here at my school and also ran into the same thing...just a couple members. I hadn't had the lofty goal of creating a national organization. But now that you guys mention it...man I think that is a good idea. We could totally do it. Please count me in for any planning. We should start talking to AAOMS and ADEA to see what they think and where to get started. I think a goal of a national conference in 2005 is great. I'm going to think about organizaiton some more. Awesome. :thumbup:
 
I think you guys have a good idea. Just to throw a suggestion out there....

Instead of your own national conference, you could consider piggy-backing on the national AAOMS conference held each year (I think it is sometime in the fall). This way you'll be surrounded by the important people in your field who can help support you. There is a resident component of the AAOMS, you guys could be the pre-doctoral component.
 
It is nice to see some support here for the idea. I agree with many of you that in most institutions, there will only be a handful of people interested in the specialty. This is another reason why albeit difficult, a national organization is important. We are bound to share/gain from others' perspectives on their own respective programs.

A letter to AAOMS is a good idea, though I am not sure if they will find this idea attractive since truthfully, we may not be contributing much to the conference itself. Most of us won't have something substantial to present both in research and clinical realms. Of course, if there are chairpersons up there who are interested in student development/recruitment, then we may be lucky, but I'm not going to put too much faith in AAOMS (for now).

So, on to specifics:

1) I can begin to draft a letter to AAOMS about our intent, and share that letter with whoever's interested (please e-mail me). When we all approve of this letter, let's all put our names/institutions/years down to endorse it. We'll then wait for their response

2) Yah-E: I definitely don't think that there should be any kind of cutoff or exclusion factors as such. Part of the mission with this student organization is to help get everyone get into a program. For the guy who is ranked 1st in his class with a NBDE score of 99% who has presented at IADR and AAOMS, he won't need much "extra" info. However, a student group like this could really benefit those who are on the borderline, for whom every little tidbit of information may make a difference.

So, let's keep talking. And e-mail me ([email protected]) if you would like to review the letter before I send it off to AAOMS. I'll send you what I have, and let's all endorse this letter. Also, while I am not optimistic about the support from AAOMS just yet, I think that the letter can be sent to companies that support the oral surgery profession (office management, implants!!!, surgical equipment... etc). They may find that an early show of support to their future clients a worthwhile venture.

The ball is rolling.

Stanley
 
Though I'm only interested in OMS and not definite on pursuing it, I'd still like to be part of this group. At this point, OMS is the only specialty I'd consider going for if I do specialize.

I'm here to help if I can guys.
 
I'm definately in. If nothing else we could try to get into the AAOMS conference for free :D I'll send you my email stanford.
 
I have about 5 e-mails/names now, including mine. I will be sending you guys a first draft of the letter by Sunday. Let's revise it multiple times with plenty of input from you guys, before we start thinking about where to send it. I hope that the careful planning will pay off.

To initiate the fund-raising effort, I will also be sending a variant of the letter to companies that support the OMS industry. I'll first send letters to companies that routinely advertise in the American Journal of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery.

Is there a website guru among us? We don't need a fancy website to start, but if members can freely post messages, then we'll have our channels of communication activated.

If you could all help me think of an intelligent name for the organization, I'd greatly appreciate it.

(Just thinking ahead: One of the most important pieces of information on the website/newsletter will be members' experiences during externships and ultimately, during their residencies. This should serve as a valuable guide for future applicants. Oral surgical training can be diverse, with anything from 4 year to 7 year programs, MD and non-MD tracks, more clinical vs. academic/research-intensive programs. An accurate account of each program should help applicants select their best fits)
 
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Stanford Fencer said:
One of the most important pieces of information on the website/newsletter will be members' experiences during externships and ultimately, during their residencies. This should serve as a valuable guide for future applicants. Oral surgical training can be diverse, with anything from 4 year to 7 year programs, MD and non-MD tracks, more clinical vs. academic/research-intensive programs. An accurate account of each program should help applicants select their best fits)
Click to expand...

why not just have the sdn moderators create new categories dedicated entirely to speciality programs, much like the MD/DO forums.
 
The website/newsletter is just a part of the overall picture of creating this student group.

For example, organized dentistry groups such as ASDA and ADEA cannot truly be influential and functional if all they had was an online bulletin board/forum.

Through conferences, friendships are built and ideas are forged. Ultimately, the group becomes an effective instrument to make the path to OMS more fruitful and fun for everyone involved, present and future.

The analogy that I can make for our student group, though I wouldn't want to push it too far, is that of ASDA to ADA; Our group to AAOMS.

:)
 
Yah-E said:
I realize that OMFS residency programs will look at the whole entire picture meaning applicant's experiences/exposure to research, undergraduate records, externships, leadership, publish papers, presenting posters, extracurriculurs and/or community services, but numbers especially class ranking is pretty huge isn't it?
Click to expand...

How important is undergraduate record when looking for OMFS spots (or any highly competitive specialty spot for that matter)?

Cheers,
Marshall
 
To Marshall,

When I first talked to my mentor, a professor in the OMFS dept., about my interest in OMFS, one of the first things he asked me about was my undergraduate record.

I suppose that at least for the MD-track programs, the undergraduate record is deemed quite important. The OMS dept. needs its residents to have good undergraduate records to clear medical school admissions.
 
Well, what's done is done and can't be undone. I hope Yah-E gets in ... it will be encouraging for people with less than stellar UG records.
 
marshall said:
Well, what's done is done and can't be undone. I hope Yah-E gets in ... it will be encouraging for people with less than stellar UG records.
Click to expand...


M. Anthony Pogrel (director of UCSF omfs) said that 3.0 is the minimum the med school will accept for undergrad grades. :scared:
 
Doggie said:
M. Anthony Pogrel (director of UCSF omfs) said that 3.0 is the minimum the med school will accept for undergrad grades. :scared:
Click to expand...
I guess thats good for me but just barely... those 3.5+ are gonna be a problem if I decide to do OMFS.
 
Hi Doggie,

Are you interested in the UCSF program?
 
Stanford Fencer said:
Hi Doggie,

Are you interested in the UCSF program?
Click to expand...


Just a little bit..........cuz it's only my #1 choice. ;)
 
Awe shoot! Maannnnnn, now UCSF is off my list!! Why won't they just take an applicant with a 2.4 UG GPA?!! :(

NOT!!

Those CA residencies...heck, that state, I'll probably never have an academic reason to go there! Although I may be going to LA for my first date with Britney Spears in couple of years! :laugh:
 
Yah-E, anything is possible man. Don't cross it off your list. I have been told that the Chairman interviews folks with NBDE's above 95. One incoming resident scored a whopping 99.

If you or Doggie do an externship here, you are welcome to stay with me.

See, this is why we MUST get that national organization going, ok?
 
Man, USCF is awesome but seven yrs...that is a long time. I read that the med school yrs are at UCDavis. Is it true that the program is 7 yrs for basically everyone unless they went to Harvard, Columbia, and one other but I can't remember... I still wonder why they, and the others that are 7 yrs, require the extra year of med school. I don't see too much of a benefit.
 
stanford, yah-e, doggie, marshall, and all the others out there....count me in on this attempt to form a group. I'd love to help out in any way and believe it's a great idea! We have an interest group here at UNC that meets once/month to review journal articles, but I'd love to get to meet with you guys and exchange experiences, etc.

Back to those decks...



:eek:

BTW: Yah-E: a buddy of mine will be doing an externship at that hospital at U. of Miami this summer that u mentioned you're looking at. I'll let you know how his experience goes. I'll be doing an externship here at UNC and in the early planning stages for a couple next year.
 
Stanford Fencer said:
Yah-E, anything is possible man. Don't cross it off your list. I have been told that the Chairman interviews folks with NBDE's above 95. One incoming resident scored a whopping 99.

If you or Doggie do an externship here, you are welcome to stay with me.

See, this is why we MUST get that national organization going, ok?
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks for the offer! I would have taken up your offer and saved $600 last summer when i was there for 2 weeks! Now if you have connections in Dallas this summer, I can save another $900 on hotel fees!

Here's something for you guys to consider...... A recent conversation with a chief resident at Columbia gave me this insight. He basically said that it may be more worthwhile for students to go to programs that are associated with dental schools. Reasoning behind this is that these programs allow you to work with different specialities in the dental field, pretty much what you will be doing once you begin practicing oral surgery. It puts a more dental perspective to oral surgery and it's also an easier way to build connections amongst the dental community. Your bread-n-butter wisdom teeth extractions are referred by the DDS colleagues, not MD ones.
 
OMS gang, I'm basically HOOKED on this thread now.

The idea with the journal review is great. I think that at our soon-to-be annual student conference, we'll have to set a workshop aside to read articles that are pertinent to the field. That way we'll get an idea who the giants are, and where the field is going.

I absolutely agree with the comment that dentists are going to be the most reliable group of clinicians who will refer patients to OMSurgeons. However, let me add one potential point of interest.

The UCSF program is heavily integrated with the medical school/hospital as well, and my mentor sees patients with oral cancer. Yes, he even does his own neck dissection. Where does he get his referrals? From dentists as well. So while dentists make up the group that will refer the most patients to OMSurgeons, bear in mind that for those of us interested in the academia, who wishes to expand the scope of OMS practice, it's not bad to be associated with the hospital and med school as well.

Ok, so this is beginning to sound opportunistic. Are we trying to take advantage of both sides?

Sure we are. :thumbup:
 
Oh, and Doggie has spoken. Who are the pre-OMS in the Dallas area? You've got a colleague to host. :D
 
Ill pose my question from another thread here. I noticed that UCSF OMS program will not accept applications if you don't have an undergraduate degree. Do you guys know of any others that have the same policy?
 
My understanding (and boy do I hope this is right :oops: ) is that you only need to be graduated from a us accredited dental school to apply.
 
UCSF is the only program I have seen explicitly say that they require a bachelor's degree...but I haven't looked at all of them.
 
aphistis said:
Wouldn't any 6-year OMS program require a bachelor's? My understanding is that all med schools require the undergrad degree.
Click to expand...
Not all med schools require a bachelors, but if you say that you are going to get one and end up not getting one, they will rescind their offer, same as D school.
 
Doggie said:
Hey, thanks for the offer! I would have taken up your offer and saved $600 last summer when i was there for 2 weeks! Now if you have connections in Dallas this summer, I can save another $900 on hotel fees!

Here's something for you guys to consider...... A recent conversation with a chief resident at Columbia gave me this insight. He basically said that it may be more worthwhile for students to go to programs that are associated with dental schools. Reasoning behind this is that these programs allow you to work with different specialities in the dental field, pretty much what you will be doing once you begin practicing oral surgery. It puts a more dental perspective to oral surgery and it's also an easier way to build connections amongst the dental community. Your bread-n-butter wisdom teeth extractions are referred by the DDS colleagues, not MD ones.
Click to expand...
Doggie, I can find you a place to stay as long as you don't jump on the furniture.
 
UNLV OMS WANABE said:
What about your programs river, bitters etc.
Click to expand...
there are few programs that require them... mine doesn't...nowhere I interviewed did...
 
To those of you who emailed me your interest in starting a national pre-OMS group, I have good news for you that I'll be sending via e-mail shortly. I'm still working on the letter. :cool:
 
OK, some of you have sent me emails, some have PM'ed me, and I'm getting lost as to who you all are.. my bad.

So far, from the responses on SDN, I have
- oms fan
- unlv oms wanabe
- montrealer
- yah-E
- waiting
- drpheta

Do you mind sending me an email again ([email protected]) and incl. your SDN names please? Much thanks.
 
Calculus1 said:
Doggie, I can find you a place to stay as long as you don't jump on the furniture.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the invite, but I already got a place that is gonna charge me $900 if i dont keep my end of the deal...... :mad: Maybe a brewsky or two during the summer if we ever come across each other. :thumbup:
 
Doggie said:
Thanks for the invite, but I already got a place that is gonna charge me $900 if i dont keep my end of the deal...... :mad: Maybe a brewsky or two during the summer if we ever come across each other. :thumbup:
Click to expand...
$900, ouch. It's cool, I'm always down for some beers in the summer, I know just the place(s).
 
Hello,

I've read some of the previous posts and the idea of starting a national pre-OMS got me hooked! I would love to help out in any way I can. Count me in on your future venues.

:thumbup:
 
To update the pre-OMS gang

As the letter is slowly morphing into shape, just wanted to let you know that I was also working on where to send it first.

I sent an e-mail to AAOMS, but have not yet received a response. I'm not surprised. If need be, I'll try to go around this obstacle by first talking to someone high up on the AAOMS ladder in my school.

However, I have received quite an enthused response from the Section of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery in ADEA. We'll test-run our letter there first.

Thanks for your patience and support.

Stanley Liu
 
Hi
i am currently a third year student AT NYUCD, extremely interested in OMFS

I am not in the top ten percent in my school, but have a 90 on the boards and externship experience,

could someone tell me what are the specific requirements for omfs.

thanks
 
Shariq:

Welcome to SDN! Are you in Class of 2006? When you say you're a 3rd year, are you a new 3rd year like me (Class of 2006) or are you going to be a 4th year in a couple of weeks? At any rate, OMFS residencies look at numerous factors in selecting their new resident applicants. The biggest 3, the "triple threat", they look at is obviously your CLASS RANKING, CUMULATIVE DENTAL GPA, and NBDE PART 1 SCORE.

Are you in Top 20%? Good job on the 90 for NBDE Part 1, but you'll need much more to be competitive!
 
I would say the triple threat is class rank, boards score, and interview, closely followed by externships. Class rank makes dental GPA obsolete. Just FYI!
 
Well, interview only come in to play when you actually get one! GPA is important because you could be #4 the in the class, but you only have a 3.35 since every class is so different!

When you have two #4s from two different schools, one has 3.62 and the other one has a 3.35.....doesn't that fact make the OMFS directors think a little....in that case the Class ranking isn't a great decision factor there!

Interview is HUGE, I agree with you, but only when you get one which is based on the GPA, Rankings and Boards!

Again, I know nothing...I'm only an OMFS hopeful.

River, BTW, is GRE required at LSU OMFS? I saw that in the PASS application!
 
River13 said:
I would say the triple threat is class rank, boards score, and interview, closely followed by externships. Class rank makes dental GPA obsolete. Just FYI!
Click to expand...

Unless if you go to schools without class rankings......whew!
;)
 
Yah-E said:
When you have two #4s from two different schools, one has 3.62 and the other one has a 3.35.....doesn't that fact make the OMFS directors think a little....in that case the Class ranking isn't a great decision factor there!
Click to expand...

Yah-E, I think you missed River's point. GPAs vary greatly from school to school, so if a class rank is available, then GPA means squat. I've heard it is possible to graduate from some dental schools with a 4.0; that is near impossible at our school, we only had one student graduate with a GPA greater than 3.75. And then there are schools that offer A+ and B+ and B- grades allowing greater variation in GPA than the schools that are straight A, B, C, F. That's why the programs look at class rank, it eliminates the GPA variability from school to school.

GPA is only important at your (the individual student's) school. A 3.5 may make you 1/90 at your school, school A, making a 3.5 GPA very respectable. The 3.5 makes another candidate 45/90 at school B, making that 3.5 mean much less, maybe even indicating possible grade inflation at school B.
 
I'm simply stating that BOTH classing ranking AND cumulative GPA make the picture clearer! Interview only come in to play when you actually get one!

And again....I know nothing...I'm only an OMFS hopeful!
 
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