Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (OMS)

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Now I'm wondering, since the govn has just recently shut off funding of many speciality programs expect for OMS and Pedo, will this mean that in the years to come these two specialities will become more competitive? What do you guys think?

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Freddy, most schools were only on the GME ticket for 2 or 3 years. The classes who got it were totally lucky. Basically it was a fluke. Schools like Columbia, Tufts, NYU always used to charge tuition for their specialty programs. I know these schools only offered the GME stipend for the past two school years. Prior to that, everyone paid tuition and specialties like endo & ortho were just as competitive then as they are now. It's like dental school - some people will pay whatever it takes to earn their DDS & become a dentist. If a dentist wants to do endo/ortho/prostho/perio that bad, they will pay for that too. Choosing to specializing is a passion, not just an option where you waltz into the highest paying residency program (well, for most people anyways).

I really don't think OMS & Pedo are going to become that much popular just because they pay. We had plenty of people going into ortho, perio & prostho even with GME gone; I don't know of anyone in my class that changed their mind from endo/ortho/prostho/perio to OMS/pedo just because they'll get a stipend. If a graduating dentist wants to earn money, it's way easier to get a job than it is to get admission to an OMS or Pedo program. You couldn't pay me enough to do an OMS residency; that's why I'm leaving it to the guys on this thread b/c it's their calling.

Doggie, btw, that article you posted doesn't make any sense to me. It talks about why people left oral surgery in the United Kingdom and I didn't think their approach to dental & OMS training is the same as ours. One of our Oral Pathology residents at our school was trained as an OMS in Britain and falls into that category of people who left to do something else b/c of dissatisfaction there.
 
Hi all, new to SDN.
I have had a question for some time about programs in the country. Which ones are the top dogs and why?
 
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i'm curious...is it possible for a md graduate to take up oms and what's the length of training like? any examples of porgrams?
 
I know University of Alabama, University of Louisville, and Baylor all occasionally accept OMS residents who graduate from medical school...they do 2-3 years of dental school and get a dental degree while the graduates of dschool would do 2-3 and get the medical degree...and its still all done in 6 years actually, like any dual degree OMS residency. More programs are looking into taking both types of graduates as well...the end product is the same.
 
River (and anyone else who went through the match process),

Now that the match is over I am interested to hear the good, the bad and the ugly on the programs that you visited with!
 
Originally posted by Bitters
Hey people, been reading this thread for some time. I'm currently in my second year of omfs. Its a six year program, so I'm currently a 3rd year med student. Any questions you might have about any aspect of anything ask away. I'll try to help in any way I can.


Just matched in an OMS/MD program I need some help with the USMLE step 1 , I already started studying for it but i need some guidance from somebody who has been there.
 
Maxfac, When are you required to take the test? Better yet what is the structure of your program?
 
Just FYI

Types of OMFS residencies:

4-Year Residencies

Two types:

1) 4-Year (no MD)
2) 4-Year w/ MD Optional (option of earning the MD degree - more years will be added to your length of residency)

5-Year Residencies (only two currently)

MD Required (MD integrated in the residency) [aka MD Integrated/Dual Degree]

Nebraska
Case Western

6-Year Residencies

MD Required/MD Integrated/Dual Degree

7-Year Residency (only one currently)

MD Required/MD Integrated/Dual Degree

UCSF

So now you all know that OMFS residencies can last anywhere from 4 to 7 years depending on where and what type of residency you look for.

Fun stuff huh? :clap:
 
damn, and I thought 4 years was a lot to add on to postdoc. 7 years!!!! WOW.
 
I was wondering if its more competitive to get into the 5 yrs OMS programs than the 6 or 7 yrs residencies? and if the 5 yrs OMS curriculum is structured more intensively?
 
The answer is no. Not more competitive, not more intensive.
 
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UConn is a six year program. UCSF is seven years for everyone excpet peole who atteneded Harvard, Columbia, and UConn. For these individuals it is six years.
 
OMFSapplicant:

You'r absolutely right...I meant to type UCSF! I'll correct it now!

Thanks!
 
Seven weeks and counting until I'm done with dental school! River13 or anyone out there, have you guys heard when your programs start? I haven't heard a thing since the week of match.
 
Originally posted by omfsapplicant
UConn is a six year program. UCSF is seven years for everyone excpet peole who atteneded Harvard, Columbia, and UConn. For these individuals it is six years.

Is there reason why UCSF grants six years to those who attended Harvard, Columbia and UConn. I would guess it has something to do with their dental school curriculum?
 
All of those three..Harvard, UCONN and Columbia take most of the classes during their first 2 years of dental school with Med students at the same school. That's the only thing i can think of. I dont' know if there are other schools that have the two classes combined.
 
Do you get to perform oral surgery during dental school?
 
Stuff like exodontia, yes.

Stuff like orthognathic surgery, HELL no. :laugh:
 
OMFSapplicant-

I've actually filled out a couple of packets of info my program has sent me already, for a temp. resident liscence, W4's, etc. The start date for me is officially july 1, but they want me to start doing certain orientations the last week of june. I've had to be in contact w/ them in order to buy a house down there!
 
I would like to hear any experiences dealing with surviving oral surgery residency with a wife and kids. How bad (or good) is it? Is it not too bad during the med school years or worse than I am expecting? Any insights are appreciated.
 
Originally posted by UNLV OMS WANABE
I would like to hear any experiences dealing with surviving oral surgery residency with a wife and kids. How bad (or good) is it? Is it not too bad during the med school years or worse than I am expecting? Any insights are appreciated.

I know a lot of MD's who are doing their residencies (Anaesthesiology, ENT, General Surgery etc).... They dont have time for themselves, let alone someone else. I asked one of them (who is in his late 30's) on how it would be like if he was married. He told me the only way that would have happened is if the woman supported him and understood they would only have time for each other once a week (around 4 times a month) for 99% of the residency years - except holidays.

I think it can be done with the right partner/spouse... but after speaking to many residents, they doubt it, and most likely wouldnt have done it due to the life-style. We are talking literally around 80 hours or more a week schedules at the hospitals (getting up 4-5 a.m. in many cases), with couple of CALLS. They get a day off weekly, and if married - that would probably be the catch-up day... The rest of the days they go home around 8-9pm, not enough time to spend with a spouse i guess for some people.

That's my opinion and experiences with residents (I live with 2, I hardly see them).
 
I totally disagree with Mo007. I spend around 80-90 hours a week at the hospital plus I have a wife and 8 month old baby, and I don't think I could do it with out them. Anyone who tells you otherwise obviously has never had the support of a loving spouse and love a child to motivate and push them. Sure I don't see them as much as I want, but I make the most of the time I do have.

It takes a strong marriage, a wife who understands and is patient when your mind is constantly on work/school.
 
Originally posted by omsres
I totally disagree with Mo007. I spend around 80-90 hours a week at the hospital plus I have a wife and 8 month old baby, and I don't think I could do it with out them. Anyone who tells you otherwise obviously has never had the support of a loving spouse and love a child to motivate and push them. Sure I don't see them as much as I want, but I make the most of the time I do have.

It takes a strong marriage, a wife who understands and is patient when your mind is constantly on work/school.

omsres, I don't recall if you are at a 6 or 4 year program. If 6 what about during med school?
 
Originally posted by omsres
I totally disagree with Mo007.... Anyone who tells you otherwise obviously has never had the support of a loving spouse and love a child to motivate and push them... It takes a strong marriage, a wife who understands and is patient when your mind is constantly on work/school.

I concur.

I just never met married residents, and the ones who werent married thought they wouldnt have given much attention to their other half.

It all depends on the individual.
 
I'm another oral surgery resident who's been following this post for a while. I fully agree with OmsRes. My wife is the only thing keeping me sane at this point, and my 3-month old kid is what makes it all worthwhile. I could not have done as well in dental school without my wife's support and encouragement... not to mention the many packed lunches. I will be bold here and even suggest that a spouse is an asset, not a complicating factor...otherwise I would question whether you should be married. But that's probably another issue.

As far as med school, I've had way more free time than I did in dental school and see my wife much more. And that's after moonlighting 15-20 hours per week on the side.
 
toofache32,

If this is who I think it is, How's Creed?
 
Now THAT is spooky. Creed is doing great...we'll have to get him together with Chuck soon! That reminds me its about time to give you a call and see how life goes these days.
 
Hey guys,

I just wanna say a couple of things.

First, this is probably one of the most useful threads I have seen on SDN, especially as an OMFS hopeful. My interest in this field has been growing faster than my interest in dentistry as a whole. Not to take anything away from dentistry...i mean thats why were all here.

Second, some great great helpful useful info. Keep it coming. And please do share ur experiences with us younger OMFS keeners. Nothing is more valuable then experience.

My interest was initially in Ortho, and Ive been comparing the two (OMFS and Ortho) quite thoroughly based on all information I can gather. Ive come to the conclusions and realization that OMFS is definately for me. I know theres a lot more work involved in doing OMFS, but frankly I dont care. I love it. thats the bottom line. What could be better in life than doing what you love? I dunno! I also know the requirements to get admission into the OMFS programs. BUT, I havent seen any info on OMFS salaries. Now I know this information is highly variable depending on the source and usually reported as averages whcih dont really give u a good picture, in my opinion. A lot of people say its less than endo and ortho. Is this true? If so, how much less. Im sure some of you know some OMFS's so you ahve first hand info regarding salary. That info would be awesome. I love OMFS but Im not gonna put in 4-6 more years if Im gonna be making the same amount as dent (hopefully taht doesnt seem selfish, because I dont intend to sound that way)

Other than that, good luck to all other OMFS hopefuls and thanks

Vishal
 
I find it interesting that you say you totally love it and what could be better than doing what you love and then flip 180 degrees and say only if it pays more? Couldn't you live doing something you love for 150G's a year?
 
Generally speaking, specialties make more than a GP on average. Even if you think averages are useless in speaking of a particular practice's salary, you have to warrant the fact that across the board, your chances at a higher payout in the specialty is higher because of the higher average. Based on that, you should, and most likely would, make more as an OMS than a GP.

I also agree with UNLVOMS, if you love it so much, what's the problem in doing it for the same payout as a GP? You also have to consider the fact that most Ortho and Endo programs do not give you a stipend, while OMS does. That extra cost in education can be a huge difference and increase the stress load, which should equalize the playing field between all the specialties.

On top of all that, this is a specialty. You are going to be practicing your specialty for the rest of your life. There is no going back, so you theoretically would be making a huge mistake by picking the program based on money alone. It would seem to make your life a living hell, even with the marginal increase in salary.
 
Who said doing it for money alone?? Its just a bonus, that Id enjoy :thumbup:
 
drPheta said:
On top of all that, this is a specialty. You are going to be practicing your specialty for the rest of your life. There is no going back, so you theoretically would be making a huge mistake by picking the program based on money alone. It would seem to make your life a living hell, even with the marginal increase in salary.

You could always go back to general dentistry, only if you take down the sign that says "DrPheta, Oral Surgeon" and hang up a sign that says "DrPheta, General Dentist." The only thing you would "lose" is the stress and extra time you spent in your specialty residency only to come back to general dentistry which is what you were trained to do when you graduated dental school in the first place.
 
I can't think of a reason when someone committs to postgrad... and then decides to become a General Dentist... there should be a plenty of time to decide during dental school to find out what you enjoy the most.
 
Hey guys just wondering a few more things. As you can see, I just come on here as it comes to me, so I dont have all questions ready to go.

Anywho:

1.Where is the most likely place of employment for an OMFS?? Do they usually work in hospitals? Private Practice? If you work in a hospital, does the hospital pay you?? Are you always on call?? If you have private practice, do u basically have to build an OR for yoruself?? Im wondering cause my perception is that if youre a surgeon on-call at hospitals, you dont have much time for extracurricular activites and such please correct me if im wrong). And I like to keep busy with a lot of other things besides just work, plus adding family to the equation, Im thinking really makes it quite hectic. If private practice is a viable option for this field, that would definately appeal to me more.

2.when doing your externships, does it look bad if youve done a few externships in a variety of different disciplines?? Should you be pretty focused in one area?? And also when are the majority of externships done?? Are externships competitive to get into?? Because I know that BU, has a 10 week externship in your 4th year, but isnt that too late because dont u apply to specialties in the beginning of your 4th year?? So in terms of getting exposure, and making contacts, its kinda too late. no??

3.What are the more reputable programs in the country??

Thats all I got for now. Thanks again guys, and gals.

Vishal
 
VancouverDoc2b,
I'm not sure if this is common or not but the oral surgeon I went to had a private practice and an OR at his practice for outpatient surgeries and he would do a lot there and had an anesthesiologist that he worked with a lot. More complicated cases/non outpatient cases he did at a hospital.
 
Just curious if anyone knows what the tuition/stipend situation is like at USC. The website says specialty tuition is like 40,000 a year but then it says to contact OMS program for specifics. I know an OMS who went there 20 years ago and he said they only charged tuition the first year.
 
OMFS residencies are different from the other dental specialities in that they are hospital based. You are considered a hospital employee/member of the housestaff. You are paid based on your post graduate level of training. You will see the terms PGY 1, PGY 2 etc... You normally get an increase per year in your salary. Amounts depend on location, cost of living... Expect the PGY1 salary to be from 35,000 to 45,000 based on these factors.

You may see a few programs that offer a "stipend" to students in a six year program while they are in medical school. You are still required to pay tuition so this may off set the cost. Its a good idea to investigate the program and see if they require 2 vs. 3 yrs of medical school tuition. 3 yrs is a rip off in my opinion but I'll leave that for another if any are interested.
 
USC was one of the schools I was invited to an interview at but didn't have time to see. One of my previous classmates is there now. The stipend is exactly in the range bitters said for the 4-year program. At USC they also have a 6 year program which requires 3 years/medschool if I remember correctly at around 33K/yr (ouch!). From what I hear its a well rounded program.
 
Is there any program out-there with OMS/MD in 5 years?
 
Now there are 2 OMS/MD program 5 years programs, Case Western and Nebraska. In the past MGH used to be 5 years if you are a graduate of Harvard dental school, but I think they changed that now. In addition UIC also is an optional MD after 4 years of OMS training you will do one year at the medical school to get your MD provided that you request that from the program director after you match with them and pass USMLE step I. But remember that despite the fact that you have MD you will not get a medical license since you need to get an ACGME accredited 1-2 years of medical training post MD which always the case if you go to optional MD programs. Case and Nebraska are integrated MD and one year ACGME accredited general surgery internship post MD in 5 years which in my opinion is good to have an extra year as compared to 6 years programs you can do one year of subspeciality fellowship if interested , that's why I ranked CASE as my first choice and thank god I matched with them.
 
MAXFAC

Congratulations. Which school are you currently attending? and if you don't mind sharing your rank/boards stats that got you into Case with us.

Thanks
 
Hey Everyone. I'm new to SDN. This thread is great. Just wondering if I'm alone in this...Now that I've decided that I want to be an OMS, I find doing the everyday dental school work (cutting preps, endo, prostho...) is driving me crazy! Do you all feel the same way? I know it is a means to an end...but man it makes some days tough.
 
Suprisingly I don't mind doing all the other stuff so much. I thought it would bother me more but it doesn't. Except for scaling and RP :(
 
I think you all have talked about this already but I was wondering how many (which ones...I think at least UCSF and Houston and some others) programs require 3 yrs of med school. What do you all think of that. I have a lot of friends either in med school or out already and knowing what they cover that year, I can't think of the major benefits other than prep for USMLE1. Thanks.
 
Hey another question...
I want to do some OMS externships and I can see where I might be able to fit two weeks in here or there over breaks...but when do you guys find a whole month off to head out somewhere? What are your school's policies on externships? Thanks.
 
At my school, the policy is that anytime you participate in an externship that takes within scheduled school time/days (clinic or classes), you must complete an "Offcampus Rotations" application.

Most students that I've talked to that did OMFS externships participated either during breaks (Winter, summer and/or spring breaks) or during the school year onced they've completed all their clinical requirements or they are ahead of their clinical requirements.

Now, I'll be participating in my first month-long externship this upcoming summer and I'm actually missing 3 weeks of clinic which I had to get approved by the school. One week out the month that I'll be gone is the Florida State Licensure Board exams so all sim labs and clinic will be closed to students. So there you go, one week of official vacation days due to Florida boards and three weeks of officially excused days that I had to apply for.

I believe that I was very fortunate that both of my Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Director of Undergraduate Clinics approved my application to go offcampus for 3 weeks during the beginning of my mandatory clinic time this summer! This is very uncommon for several reasons:

1) externships are usually reserved for D3s and D4s (summer between D3 and D4 years)
2) my school's policy states that student may ONLY apply for a total of one week during scheduled school time (we may include a scheduled break to increase this time) - I applied for 3 weeks
3) I'll be missing my very first 3 weeks of scheduled initial clinic days as a D3

Schools' policies for offcampus rotations during scheduled clinic/class days will vary, you might want to check with your Deans. Remember, conflicts only comes into play when you're trying to go offcampus during scheduled clinic/class days. When I did my mini-externships at University of Minnesota during my spring breaks in 2003 and in 2004, I never had to complete a "Offcampus Rotations" application and seek approval from my school.

Your school should know that OMFS externship usually recommends a longer stay for their externships so it's not uncommon for students to apply to miss more than one week of scheduled school days. See, if you're already a D3 or a D4, then you must have all your requirements done or at least be ahead of the game as far as requirement goes for you to be able to go on your externship.

For example, next summer when I apply for another OMFS externship during summer time, I better have all my requirements finished before my Academic Dean and Clinic Director will allow me to leave during schedule school days. BTW, I'm already applying for my Winter Break OMFS externship NOW for two weeks at University of Miami Jackson Memorial Hospital! Getting them lined up!

Have done:

04/2003 University of Minnesota, Department of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery, Fairview Hospital
04/2004 University of Minnesota, Department of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery, Hennepin County Medical Center

Will be doing :

06/2004 Lousiana State University Health Science Center, Dept. of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery, Univeristy Hospital and Charity Hospital

Anticipated:

12/2004 University of Miami, Dept of Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery, Jackson Memorial Hospital
6/2005 my last OMFS externship somewhere

If you need anything else, feel free to ask. If I know the answer, I'd be glad to help out. Looks like we'll be going head to head in 2006 fighting for one of those 176 spots in residency. Heck, we'll probably even run into one another at our interviews (fingers crossed, if I even get them :eek: ).

Andy
 
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