Options

[Doctor Bob]

The fact that the OP expressed suicidality, meant all of us as professionals should have addressed them as a suicidal person we didn't want to be named in a nasty med mal suit, if we were incapable of summoning more kindness at the least.

It's not the first time I've seen people be anything other than diplomatic after a poster has expressed they might harm themselves. Move on to another forum to be sadistic if you read that, please. Plenty of people can take it, but let's not dish it out after someone has said "uncle." In fact, the chances that someone having a career meltdown in medicine is considering hurting themselves should be enough warning to tread lightly.

Err... so? You are a sunshine, flowers, and group-hug person. I get that. I'm not. I'm a tough love, suck-it-up and get through it, and adapt-and-overcome person. Burn away false hope so people can turn their attention in the direction it needs to go.

SDN is one of the few places people in healthcare have to go to get advice on certain topics. It's as though none of you were ever in a situation that made you concerned for your career. (I've read the statistics on % of docs that get named in a medmal suit with little merit, and statistics on how much that can affect a doc's mental health, and more objectively, career and finances.)

And I think that advice should be unequivocal. The utility of SDN as a resource means that we aren't always just talking to the OP, but to the 999 other people in the same situation at the OP who come through to find help in their situation. Is the the 1 time out of 1000 that I'll be wrong? Well, odds would say no. But even if it is, then the advice is spot on to the other 999 people.

If the OP was your relative how would you like physicians to address them formally or informally after expressing suicidality?

I am not the OP's doctor. I have no physician/patient relationship with them. I'm a guy on the internet.
This oath of brotherhood and whatnot that you talk about... My oath is to my patients and this person isn't my patient. I don't take my doctoriness into every facet of my daily life. I don't go out of my way to be mean to people but I don't pull my punches either. I find more value in straight talk, rather than trying to couch things in a way to save someone's feelings.

EDIT: and delivery matters.

Indeed. Please don't preach to us like we're a group of 5 year olds. You're not my doctor either.

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[therealalextrebek]

I wonder if there's any chance that this is the guy who got into med school without taking the MCAT, because his dad was some political donor (who ended up being a ponzi schemer or something) and pulled some strings, does anyone remember that story? Can't recall where that was, but a quick Google search of the applicant name would probably bring that right up while on the trail.....

 

[rokshana]

My god you are insufferable. I can't figure out which part is worst, the endless walls of text (often in response to yourself) or the condescension

ouch...true but ouch....

 

[Apollyon]

Why do some people keep saying "AOA"? I think only one meant "Alpha Omega Alpha". Is this guy a DO? As others have said, he sounds kind of evasive.

When I said some programs will only take some of their own and not everyone can be AOA I meant Alpha Omega whatever honors thing that is the acronyms drive me nuts.

When someone mentions AOA merger, they mean American Osteopathic Association, its programs. I don't when it happens or if it already did, but at some point all AOA slots participating in NBME will be open to MD applicants, just as now all ACGME slots are open to DOs (that doesn't mean you can get in, just that you can send the app).

Got your back there, kid!

 

[Crayola227]

I think sometimes people give less details because they are afraid that given that they are already in a unique uncommon situation, they might be easily identifiable IRL and how that might affect their careers.

Sorta kills the whole "get anonymous advice" utility.

 

[gutonc]

I think sometimes people give less details because they are afraid that given that they are already in a unique uncommon situation, they might be easily identifiable IRL and how that might affect their careers.

Sorta kills the whole "get anonymous advice" utility.

It also destroys the whole "get useful advice" utility.

 

[Crayola227]

Guess I took the oath of Geneva.
"My colleagues will be my brothers and sisters." I reviewed the definition of professional which stated most are subjected to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous moral and ethical obligations. I was also taught that extends to our conduct outside of work. I'm not a saint outside work but I take suicidality seriously in all spheres.

Listen guys, I reviewed the comments and you were pretty diplomatic. So I apologize for being heavy handed there.

 

[Chicago2012]

I have been repeatedly told that part of my problem is that all my electives were surgical so that adds to the disadvantage of the step failure and the growing length of time from my Graduation date have worked heavily against me. My advisor was also very surprised both times that I did not match

 

[Raryn]

My god you are insufferable. I can't figure out which part is worst, the endless walls of text (often in response to yourself) or the condescension

I thought it was just me.

The endless random comments that are something like "If you review my post history, you can see the advice I gave regarding XYZ" when the advice was rather inane and buried in huge walls of text are what particularly sticks in my craw.

Ignoring that though, we really can't help the OP without more specifics. All happy medical students are alike, but every unhappy situation is unhappy in its own way. I quickly went through a few of the OP's past posts and see references to other red flags, and maybe we could help give some advice on how to approach overcoming those. That said, every year out from graduation chances go down lower and lower, so it doesn't look particularly good.

 

[gutonc]

I have been repeatedly told that part of my problem is that all my electives were surgical so that adds to the disadvantage of the step failure and the growing length of time from my Graduation date have worked heavily against me. My advisor was also very surprised both times that I did not match

I'll repeat my suggestion to add some GS prelims. Not perfect, but maybe a toe hold for you.

 

[Chicago2012]

Problem is that I currently have no surgical letters, just FM and IM

 

[Chicago2012]

Honestly though, if it will help me get into FM (do one year and then get a PGY-2 position) I am willing to do anything to reach my goal if it's possible.

 

[Chicago2012]

I was going to take Step 3 to try to make my app stronger but my mentor advised against it, but I'm thinking now that that was not the best advice.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Problem is that I currently have no surgical letters, just FM and IM

So wait...so you did all surgical electives 4th year but you have no surgery letters, just FM and IM? But you're told that you can't match FM because you don't have FM electives?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

 

[Chicago2012]

I got letters at that time, but it's been so long and its way too late to get those letters now

 

[Chicago2012]

In other words, I'm not going to get them to submit those letters 3 years after seeing me last. I've had no clinical interaction with these people since then and have had no surgical experience since then. Do you honestly think asking for a letter now would be smart? Not really.

 

[rokshana]

In other words, I'm not going to get them to submit those letters 3 years after seeing me last. I've had no clinical interaction with these people since then and have had no surgical experience since then. Do you honestly think asking for a letter now would be smart? Not really.

why not?
you don't give us much to go on to help you and now you are not willing to be proactive in trying to do anything that could possibly help you...EXACTLY what are you looking for? someone to tell you there, there, you STILL have a chance for someone to walk up to you and hand you a residency spot??
(well that would be crayola...but in the real world dr bob's advice is closer to the truth).

SMH...there really needs to be an emoticon for this...

 

[Crayola227]

Every medical student I talked to at my school found the LOR thing to be a bit of a challenge. Especially if you changed specialty interest late, which can happen easily due to the structuring of time in med school. You have the additional challenge of no longer being enrolled, a wife that is ill, financial challenges, applying is expensive, so while it would be ideal to apply to peds, surg prelim, FM, occ med, path, IM, PMR as people have thrown out there, having the rotation experience/mentorship to be attractive to those fields is more than hard. It was hard at my school because outside of research it was nearly impossible to work with the same attending for more than a week.

The only options left to OP is observorship and research for letters. Those two activities could yield 2 letters. Again, there are some challenges to doing that depending on what you're doing to make money. Ideal would be paid research, paid clinical job, or student aid for another degree. That would bring in money to hopefully help you pursue activities to get new letters. The third letter could be from someone from their past, it won't be as strong, but I'm betting if you had a good relationship with the letter writers before, they might be willing to have you do an observorship with them for a few weeks to have them reaffirm their letter for you. It will be a weaker letter of the 3 but better than nothing.

A lot of students are getting letters from someone they've worked with for 2-4 weeks, the typical length with one attending in one month long rotation.

 

[Chicago2012]

why not?
you don't give us much to go on to help you and now you are not willing to be proactive in trying to do anything that could possibly help you...EXACTLY what are you looking for? someone to tell you there, there, you STILL have a chance for someone to walk up to you and hand you a residency spot??
(well that would be crayola...but in the real world dr bob's advice is closer to the truth).

SMH...there really needs to be an emoticon for this...

As you may be able to see by the title of my post I'm trying to figure out good options, not trying to get a hand out. I'm trying to figure out what my plan should be if I do not match again. I have one interview currently and I plan on doing my best to wow that program, but obviously the chances are slim with one interview and I'm trying to realistically think about what other options are out there since it's time to think about giving up my dream of being a doctor. Seeing as how I spent a whole four years of my life going to medical school and three years of attempting to match, this is a somewhat depressing thought. All that time also makes it all the more difficult to get a good job in some other field, and since I can't just drop my current job since my wife can't work, it makes it more difficult, otherwise I could just stalk some people until someone gave me a chance. Maybe everything went right for you in your life, but some of us aren't so lucky.

 

[Chicago2012]

Every medical student I talked to at my school found the LOR thing to be a bit of a challenge. Especially if you changed specialty interest late, which can happen easily due to the structuring of time in med school. You have the additional challenge of no longer being enrolled, a wife that is ill, financial challenges, applying is expensive, so while it would be ideal to apply to peds, surg prelim, FM, occ med, path, IM, PMR as people have thrown out there, having the rotation experience/mentorship to be attractive to those fields is more than hard. It was hard at my school because outside of research it was nearly impossible to work with the same attending for more than a week.

The only options left to OP is observorship and research for letters. Those two activities could yield 2 letters. Again, there are some challenges to doing that depending on what you're doing to make money. Ideal would be paid research, paid clinical job, or student aid for another degree. That would bring in money to hopefully help you pursue activities to get new letters. The third letter could be from someone from their past, it won't be as strong, but I'm betting if you had a good relationship with the letter writers before, they might be willing to have you do an observorship with them for a few weeks to have them reaffirm their letter for you. It will be a weaker letter of the 3 but better than nothing.

A lot of students are getting letters from someone they've worked with for 2-4 weeks, the typical length with one attending in one month long rotation.

I've applied to just about every paid medical research position I could find in Chicago since I can't afford to move right now, and I haven't even gotten any interviews. I'm currently volunteering doing research with the Cancer Center at my school under a Family Medicine doc, so there's that.

 

[WingedOx]

I wonder if there's any chance that this is the guy who got into med school without taking the MCAT, because his dad was some political donor (who ended up being a ponzi schemer or something) and pulled some strings, does anyone remember that story? Can't recall where that was, but a quick Google search of the applicant name would probably bring that right up while on the trail.....

That kid later did IM at FIU/FAU (forget which). Ironic because he came up in another thread today.

 

[Crayola227]

I totally get it @Chicago2012.

I'm sorry. What you said about stalking, well, other people are more concise then I am, you captured it.

Replied before I had a chance to say it sounds like you're doing all the right things. Start a kickstarter? I have nothing to add except that with an MD there is a way for you to eke an an OK living. I'm hopeful the Missouri thing is a good back up plan. And no matter what anyone says, there is always hope of practicing clinical medicine one day, but it doesn't mean it will happen or look like what you thought.

I'm very excited you have an interview! Definitely see if there's any PD advice from IRL and SDN about how to sell yourself. Check with them, if it's the only interview you get, maybe it wouldn't hurt to let them know you will rank them #1, to tell them or have the PD at your school tell them your situation, that they may be your only chance and that if they put their money on you and rank you you would be the most grateful and hardest working loyal resident ever, but beyond that (every resident should strive to be those things), that what taking you over another resident is doing is giving someone who deserves it a chance. Programs want to pick the cream of the crop as they say, but some people like underdog stories.

If you ever apply again, also look closely at program websites and read the resideny bios. That can help you see the programs that took non-trad grads. Look at anywhere that didn't fill. Look for programs on these threads where people talk about quitting or there were lawsuits and scandals. I see there's one program in Indiana IM that had a series of that that didn't fill this last year. Hmm, maybe on googling most 4th yrs didn't want to touch that place? Not exactly appetizing but when you're desperate you need to play on the desperation of others.

I hope you post on SDN in the position wanted field. Like I said, at some point in your life maybe you just start mailing/emailing your app life story yearly to every undesirable program on the map. There's more movement going on outside the match than the stats or stories account for.

 

[Crayola227]

That kid later did IM at FIU/FAU (forget which). Ironic because he came up in another thread today.

But if this OP had a political donator dad, would they be this broke now? Even ponzi schemers, especially ponzi schemers, don't end up totally broke even when caught. Flawed logic.

I don't remember MCAT scores coming up for residency apps. Did that guy do poorly in school or dis the dad scandal just follow him around?

 

[rokshana]

As you may be able to see by the title of my post I'm trying to figure out good options, not trying to get a hand out. I'm trying to figure out what my plan should be if I do not match again. I have one interview currently and I plan on doing my best to wow that program, but obviously the chances are slim with one interview and I'm trying to realistically think about what other options are out there since it's time to think about giving up my dream of being a doctor. Seeing as how I spent a whole four years of my life going to medical school and three years of attempting to match, this is a somewhat depressing thought. All that time also makes it all the more difficult to get a good job in some other field, and since I can't just drop my current job since my wife can't work, it makes it more difficult, otherwise I could just stalk some people until someone gave me a chance. Maybe everything went right for you in your life, but some of us aren't so lucky.

trust me my road to medicine was not the straight and narrow...i applied to US med schools 3 times, waited listed 2 times, finally applied to and got into DO and Caribbean schools and went the caribbean route...so i did not have the advantage of being an AMG...but you know what? I worked my butt off to get the best scores i could so i could be the most competitive that i could be (being an IMG and all), applied to over 60 places (at the time this was a high number...AMGs with my scores easily applied to only 10 places and got interviews at all of them) to get the 20 some interview i got...and went to them all...called the other 40 places multiple times to see if i could get just one more interview...my luck is that I interview well..and prepared by having the asst PD in IM where i clerked to do a mock interview...maybe you should look into why you were able to get interviews but not match...the interview has to be the key...you, as an AMG, have access to a lot of support that others would kill for...yet you aren't willing to put in the extra effort to get something...

have you...

looked to see if there are ANY unexpected openings in ANY specialty? Meaning have you looked at the different websites that post openings, joined the different websites that post openings, and asked for more information, asked your med school friends that are in residency if there are any openings st their programs, asked your advisor at your home med school if there is anything you can do in this next year to strengthen your application

sent out your CV with a cover email or letter to programs letting them know that you are interested in their program and that you are able to start as possible and to keep you in mind if anything comes open

and once finding one of those, looked to see if there is ANY one at your home school that has ties to that place, that can speak on your behalf?
looked to see if there is anyone at your school that will recommend you to any program that you do get an interview?

looked to see if there is something else you can do, say get an MHA and work in hospital administration, or pharmaceuticals, or different associations (AMA, ACP, AAFP, etc) as a rep?

...or just post here on sdn?

 

[Arcan57]

Out of curiosity, who was telling the OP that trying to match surgery with a failed Step 1 was a good idea? 4th year electives are way too late in the game to realize that you're not competitive for your desired specialty.

 

[Crayola227]

@rokshana funny that was all included in my post advice to OP. All good advice from you, thanks for sharing your struggle and triumph as an IMG. OP covered having done what he could about some but not all. Crossing fingers.

@Arcan57 one poster pointed out that OP sounded like he may be from a DO school, and that poster and others in other threads have indicated that some schools are notorious for very poor advising especially for ACGME programs. OP has posted multiple times that his med school has been very unsupportive. He hasn't told us if he is DO or MD, probably another bit of app info keeping secret for anonimity. In any case, thanks for the info on surgery match. I thought gen surg wasn't very competitive but I see that is wrong, and it seems surg prelim years are a separate track and short track and less competitive. I hope to create a separate blog soon to help people outside SDN so I stop referring to my post history when I find myself giving out the same advice over and over.

Hopefully our responses will help OP get a position somewhere anywhere and any other very unlucky non-matchers.

 

[Perrotfish]

Out of curiosity, who was telling the OP that trying to match surgery with a failed Step 1 was a good idea? 4th year electives are way too late in the game to realize that you're not competitive for your desired specialty.

At least at my school, we had a one on one meeting with our dean of students around the end of third year/early fourth year. For borderline applicants that meeting could be a very stressful hour long strategy session on how to get them over the top. For clearly unacceptable applicants the meetings were angry/tearful hour long sessions where the Dean basically browbeat them into applying to something more realistic.

Until that meeting, though, all the guidance you had was what dripped down from Residents, other students, and SDN. You'd be surprised at how many people couldn't figure out how bad their odds were until the Dean sat them down.

BTW, my entire meeting:
Dean: Hey good to see you, what are you interested in matching into
Me: Pediatrics
Dean: You're going to do great with that. Thanks for coming by.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

At least at my school, we had a one on one meeting with our dean of students around the end of third year/early fourth year. For borderline applicants that meeting could be a very stressful hour long strategy session on how to get them over the top. For clearly unacceptable applicants the meetings were angry/tearful hour long sessions where the Dean basically browbeat them into applying to something more realistic.

Until that meeting, though, all the guidance you had was what dripped down from Residents, other students, and SDN. You'd be surprised at how many people couldn't figure out how bad their odds were until the Dean sat them down.

BTW, my entire meeting:
Dean: Hey good to see you, what are you interested in matching into
Me: Pediatrics
Dean: You're going to do great with that. Thanks for coming by.

Yeah, well, at most DO schools (I forget if you're a DO) there's diddly squat in the way of advising. Yer on yer own, kid - hope ya know what you're doing.

In the class before me there was somebody trying to match psych. They apparently were decently competitive, but they opted to rank only the 5 most competitive programs they interviewed at - which coincidentally included some of the country's most competitive psych programs. This person interviewed at many more programs, but didn't rank any others because of crass overconfidence. There was zero faculty advising and this person apparently never suspected this wouldn't be a good idea.

They didn't match. Oops.

 

[RuralMedicine]

My medical school is of zero help. I finally found a mentor to do some research with but it is very limited because my wife does not work, so obviously living in a van is not an option. I am also volunteering at a free clinic. I've tried just about everything and to no avail. I don't know if I can take going through all this rejection again next year. I'm at the point where I feel like literally ripping up my diploma.

Is your wife able to work? I can understand if you have children and by being home she is saving you childcare costs and concerns (the former isn't an issue for us but we do have the latter so I work part time around my husband's call schedule) or if she is unable to work for any reason. Otherwise, I think seeking employment, at least for this season, would be a very reasonable and supportive thing for her to do.

 

[RuralMedicine]

My wife can't work. She fell a year and a half ago and injured her dominant arm (no fracture, she had some nerve impingement) to the point where even minimal activity causes pain. It is the cherry on top of my crap sundae.

Ignore my post above and I am truly sorry.

 

[nottooshabby91]

I keep seeing people on this thread insisting that the OP must say more about his red flags. Does it not occur to them that the more red flags he may mention, the easier it will be to identify him anywhere he might apply, and, more generally, for anybody he works with or under to identify him (and certainly not to his benefit)?

Are people here so blind that they can't see the problem this poses, or so callous that just don't give a care?

I have to say, some of the comments I've seen on this thread are simply monstrous in their flippancy and disdain for the OPs situation. It's the sort of thing that makes one understand how it is patients can feel that only a malpractice suit can give them any satisfaction in the face of the smugness and arrogance of their physicians.

 

[Crayola227]

Yeah I basically said the same thing too. Glad it's just not me.

Some red flags would garner specific advice, I gave a lot of advice that probably applies to anyone who is looking for a spot and ERAS is not going to help them.

 

[22031 Alum]

I have to say, some of the comments I've seen on this thread are simply monstrous in their flippancy and disdain for the OPs situation. It's the sort of thing that makes one understand how it is patients can feel that only a malpractice suit can give them any satisfaction in the face of the smugness and arrogance of their physicians.

And your attitude helps me understand how it is that some patients can be absolutely clueless about the gravity of their situations. Because to some doctors it's important to be nice and warm and fuzzy above being truthful. God forbid you paint someone a realistic picture, it might cause them a moment of distress.

See, the "bad doctor" accusations can go both ways.

I wasn't even encouraging OP to disclose more here (that's what PMs are for), but you're delusional and naive if you think withholding info yields good advice.

 

[nottooshabby91]

And your attitude helps me understand how it is that some patients can be absolutely clueless about the gravity of their situations. Because to some doctors it's important to be nice and warm and fuzzy above being truthful. God forbid you paint someone a realistic picture, it might cause them a moment of distress.

See, the "bad doctor" accusations can go both ways.

I wasn't even encouraging OP to disclose more here (that's what PMs are for), but you're delusional and naive if you think withholding info yields good advice.

Have you ever heard of the concept of a bedside manner? Are you so consumed with what you imagine to be "truth" that you can't understand that there are better and worse ways to deal with truths when it comes to genuinely serious matters? I have to say that one thing that often disgusts me about physicians as a profession is their not infrequent utter, and utterly unnecessary, callousness when they discuss grave situations with their patients. I don't know how many times I've personally observed or heard horrible stories about brutal "truths" told to patients by physicians who, in their arrogance and heartlessness, can't bother to find a better way to make their point.

I can see the same attitudes in flagrant display in this thread.

You want to understand why there are so many malpractice suits? Look in the mirror, people, and try to see what everyone else sees.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

 

[californiaappli1]

This thread is getting out of hand....

 

[pulmoblast]

There is an inconsistency in the OPs background and his poor outcome. With the given history, there is no reason that an AMG should be unable to match for 3 years anywhere. This is why people are requesting for full disclosure. For example, if there serious professionalism/legal misconduct is a part of the history, the best advice would be to give up medicine and move on.

In that scenario, perhaps the best advice would not be mollycoddling and telling him to apply here and do this etc...

 

[thehundredthone]

Have you ever heard of the concept of a bedside manner? Are you so consumed with what you imagine to be "truth" that you can't understand that there are better and worse ways to deal with truths when it comes to genuinely serious matters? I have to say that one thing that often disgusts me about physicians as a profession is their not infrequent utter, and utterly unnecessary, callousness when they discuss grave situations with their patients. I don't know how many times I've personally observed or heard horrible stories about brutal "truths" told to patients by physicians who, in their arrogance and heartlessness, can't bother to find a better way to make their point.

I can see the same attitudes in flagrant display in this thread.

You want to understand why there are so many malpractice suits? Look in the mirror, people, and try to see what everyone else sees.

I'm squinting but not seeing where you provided the OP with useful advice. Then again, maybe that's the strategy?

 

[toskabab]

.

 

[d2305]

I don't understand how IMGs match, and you can't. I would look at the programs that St George's graduates match https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2015

 

[rokshana]

y

I don't understand how IMGs match, and you can't. I would look at the programs that St George's graduates match https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2015

you mean you don't understand the process in which IMGs match?
or do you mean how they are capable of getting a spot in the match?

the former is like everyone else that enters the match...the sign up for ERAS and NRMP, select programs to apply, interview at said places, and then submit a ROL...and pray (like everyone else...)

the latter? well sometimes programs would rather have an IMG with spectacular scores or LoRs from people in the specialty that the PDs know, or impressed during an audition interview than a middle of the road or bottom of the barrel US senior.

 

[d2305]

So someone that couldn't get in medical school in the US can match, but a US graduate with a blemish can't

 

[woo]

So someone that couldn't get in medical school in the US can match, but a US graduate with a blemish can't

You have to understand people change, 4 years of medical school are quite different. Someone who got that 3.2 in undergrad, and 29 MCAT realized that they couldn't get into medical school and so in order to not waste a year, decided to opt for Caribbean. They then worked they're butt off got 250+ on step 1 and did well during school. On the other hand there is that undergraduate who did biology at a state school and got a 4.0, also got the same 29 MCAT and luckily got into an allopathic or DO school. He/she unfortunately struggled through medical school with Cs, failed step once or maybe a shelf test.

I don't know but who would you take? It is still a hard decision. You have to note that I'm sure the IMG got over 2 months to study for step 1 while the AMG probably only got like 6-5 weeks. But still. Obviously this isn't always the case with IMG vs AMG but I'm sure this is still very plausible.

 

[d2305]

Yes, I know. I used Dr Najeeb lectures for my recertification. I think they place too much emphasis on the steps, but what do I know?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

You have to understand people change, 4 years of medical school are quite different. Someone who got that 3.2 in undergrad, and 29 MCAT realized that they couldn't get into medical school and so in order to not waste a year, decided to opt for Caribbean. They then worked they're butt off got 250+ on step 1 and did well during school. On the other hand there is that undergraduate who did biology at a state school and got a 4.0, also got the same 29 MCAT and luckily got into an allopathic or DO school. He/she unfortunately struggled through medical school with Cs, failed step once or maybe a shelf test.

I don't know but who would you take? It is still a hard decision. You have to note that I'm sure the IMG got over 2 months to study for step 1 while the AMG probably only got like 6-5 weeks. But still. Obviously this isn't always the case with IMG vs AMG but I'm sure this is still very plausible.

That subpar undergrad student that didn't want to "waste a year" was the one that I would question more... afterall, they are not showing that they can delay gratification and make their application the best it could be. There's also a difference in the quality of instruction between Caribbean and US schools.

That being said, there are great Caribbean students that become doctors and poor US students that should not finish medical school...

 

[Mad Jack]

What I'm not getting is why OP didn't try to do any prelim programs last year. That could make a world of difference.

 

[rokshana]

That subpar undergrad student that didn't want to "waste a year" was the one that I would question more... afterall, they are not showing that they can delay gratification and make their application the best it could be. There's also a difference in the quality of instruction between Caribbean and US schools.

That being said, there are great Caribbean students that become doctors and poor US students that should not finish medical school...

there is also the person that their UG is no longer representative of the type of student they are...say went to grad school or a post bac and had a great GPA, improved their MCAT scores, did research, etc, but can't get away from their crappy UG gpa...applied to the US MD schools for a number of cycles, waitlisted, and then didn't get off the waitlist...there are going to be factors you can control and others that you can't...i agree with you about the concern about that person that couldn't wait a year, but there are others where its either DO or IMG or not a doctor...

 

[WingedOx]

DO or IMG or not a doctor...

The first two aren't equivalent.

 

[rokshana]

The first two aren't equivalent.

while you may want to think they are not, they both really are...they share the same issue of not being a US MD...they have the same difficulties in getting allopathic audition rotations, and residencies and after residency, patients don't care what you have in regards to a degree, just that you are a good doctor and care about them...and in the end your colleagues don't care what degree you have, again they want someone who they can work with, who is a team player, and isn't a douche...

the advantage that DO has over IMG (at least the moment) is that they have their own residencies and have more options in that regards.

 

[WingedOx]

while you may want to think they are not, they both really are...they share the same issue of not being a US MD...they have the same difficulties in getting allopathic audition rotations, and residencies and after residency, patients don't care what you have in regards to a degree, just that you are a good doctor and care about them...and in the end your colleagues don't care what degree you have, again they want someone who they can work with, who is a team player, and isn't a douche...

the advantage that DO has over IMG (at least the moment) is that they have their own residencies and have more options in that regards.

oh Jesus...

this thread is enough of a trainwreck without it devolving into another Carib false equivalency debate.

Forget I brought it up.