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Man! If clinical practice ever fails you I’m sure an insurance carrier would hire you in a heart beat!
Look man, I get it but disagree with it.
Man! If clinical practice ever fails you I’m sure an insurance carrier would hire you in a heart beat!
It's not overthinking it to want to do it right but you're probably right, too many level 4s probably won't trigger an audit although you never know.you guys are overthinking it.
I bill a level 4 for everything but a f/u in which the patient did great after PT or a procedure, and doesn't need anything from me for a while.
Never had a problem with these level 4s in over a decade of practice.
They go after people billing level 5s. What we do is level 4, 90% of the time in comparison with a 5 min ortho visit which is clearly a level 3.
History is easy to get to Detailed but Exam is not, unless you do an extended exam on follow-ups which I'm not sure why it would be necessary on an opioid refill. That leaves medical decision making which is where the confusion is.opioid therapy and risk of opioid therapy should qualify for a level 4 visit, if you are reviewing the 5 As...
i think you are making a lot more out of the complexities of billing 99214 and E/M University, the way it is stated, is too confusing.
These visits must meet two of three key components listed below:
History Exam Medical decision making 99213 key components Expanded problem focused Expanded problem focused Low 99214 key components Detailed Detailed Moderate
if you state "chronic severe (8 out of 10) radicular lower back pain without bowel or bladder dysfunction, worse with walking", you have 5-6 elements of HPI in 1 sentence.
see the examples given in this article for moderate complexity for medical decision making.
99213 or 99214? Three Tips for Navigating the Coding Conundrum
btw, "chronic lower back pain" is itself the BS diagnosis. the others are verifiable on imaging and advanced imaging. i would not rely on "back pain" to "justify" opioid prescribing. spondylosis without radiculopathy; degenerative spinal stenosis, lumbar; failed back syndrome; V91.07 (burn due to water skis on fire) are more apropos.
These points are not cumulative and you're mixing up the different sections. There are no points in the History section and a review of old notes is only 1 point unless you summarize, then it's 2. During an audit, the auditors go through every detail and check off what you've documented. If they find a discrepancy in 10 charts out of 20 they audited, they can extrapolate and request a return of 50% of whatever they have paid you for everything.Patient previously seen for low back pain. Comes in for neck pain - new problem, additional work up planned, 4 points. Get x ray, review, decide to get MRI. Probably also reviewed old notes. 4+ points for data review. Given we probably also discussed the low back, that’s multiple chronic problems as well
That’s just for the complexity score. Comprehensive history is easy enough - the MA fills out all the PMH/SH/FH/ROS and I review the paperwork. If it’s a new problem evaluation they get a comprehensive MSK exam. That alone allows billing level 5 on a follow up since you only need 2/3 (history, physical, complexity) for a follow up. However, since they more generally direct that complexity should be the primary driver of level of service, as I said above, new problem additional workup, and either a high risk score (justifiable if doing certain injections like CESI in my mind - discography is on their list of high risk diagnostic tests) or 4 points for review of data gets you to high complexity as well.These points are not cumulative and you're mixing up the different sections. There are no points in the History section and a review of old notes is only 1 point unless you summarize, then it's 2. During an audit, the auditors go through every detail and check off what you've documented. If they find a discrepancy in 10 charts out of 20 they audited, they can extrapolate and request a return of 50% of whatever they have paid you for everything.
I agree with you that H and P for a new problem would suffice for billing a level 4 but the question is billing for an established opioid follow up refill. History is easy enough to reach a level 4 but physical exam would be hard to justify billing a level 4 in an opioid f/u. That leaves Medical Decision Making for which complexity of data reviewed/ordered is just one part. This is where the confusion is. I say this type of visit does not qualify for a level 4 visit. I have given clear reasons for why it does not qualify and have only read conjecture in response.That’s just for the complexity score. Comprehensive history is easy enough - the MA fills out all the PMH/SH/FH/ROS and I review the paperwork. If it’s a new problem evaluation they get a comprehensive MSK exam. That alone allows billing level 5 on a follow up since you only need 2/3 (history, physical, complexity) for a follow up. However, since they more generally direct that complexity should be the primary driver of level of service, as I said above, new problem additional workup, and either a high risk score (justifiable if doing certain injections like CESI in my mind - discography is on their list of high risk diagnostic tests) or 4 points for review of data gets you to high complexity as well.
1. If you want to throw money away, that's up to you. Feel free to bill a 99213 as much as you want.
2. Changing all billing from a 99213 to a 99214 won't get you to baller range, it'll get you to PCP range.
3. I have no qualms about billing a 99214 if the documentation is there and neither should you. I didn't make the rules for billing/payment, I just follow them. If you feel it's an ethics thing, I respect that, but personally I would rather throw in a free SI injection or epidural from time to time for those who need it as my charity work rather than underbill.
4. The insurance carriers are doing everything they can to reduce costs and deny care that we often think is appropriate. I'm not going to voluntarily give them more money for no good reason.
5. DDD is largely used for disks and means pretty much nothing other than "bad stuff". Spondylosis includes the posterior elements and for all practical purposes means facetogenic pain.
6. We have a bazillion BS diagnoses with associated ICD-10 codes, but they exist for a reason. CMS and the other insurances want them, so I give them to play the game. In a utopian world, I could just say facetogenic low back pain and my plan. But instead I need to add FMHx, ROS, PQRS criteria, and a ton of other BS just to get paid. It's the world we live in.
This is confusing enough to people so an attempt to clarify, there is no complexity section. Complexity is part of Section C which is Medical Decision Making. Agree with discography high risk but disagree that CESI is considered high risk. Even elective major surgeries with no risk factors and minor surgeries with risk factors are considered a moderate risk. It would be tough to argue that a CESI is riskier than either one of these. I also don't think it would be easy to get 4 points for review of data. If you know, kindly show me so I can document it and start billing the 99214s.That’s just for the complexity score. Comprehensive history is easy enough - the MA fills out all the PMH/SH/FH/ROS and I review the paperwork. If it’s a new problem evaluation they get a comprehensive MSK exam. That alone allows billing level 5 on a follow up since you only need 2/3 (history, physical, complexity) for a follow up. However, since they more generally direct that complexity should be the primary driver of level of service, as I said above, new problem additional workup, and either a high risk score (justifiable if doing certain injections like CESI in my mind - discography is on their list of high risk diagnostic tests) or 4 points for review of data gets you to high complexity as well.
by that measure, you probably shouldn't be using that diagnosis to justify chronic opioid therapy...If all my 3's became 4's there would be a clear difference in monthly billing, and obviously I'm kidding saying that puts me into baller range but if I'm doing 30ish pts per day and all those 3's go up by $35 that is something...
Separating out DDD from spondylosis serves no purpose IMO. The treatment for DDD (normal finding) is nothing other than PT, which you should be doing for all pain pts anyways...I fail to see a reason to separate that considering it is all the same thing.
Practically every human over the age of 40 has that, and a huge chunk of ppl younger than 40 have it.
I personally do not consider that a pain Dx bc it is ubiquitous and IMO a normal and expected finding.
By the way, my VA pts love it when I tell them I don't care about their "degenerative disk."
I hate this bc I feel dirty for checking boxes and counting up points bc it takes my interaction with my pt and turns it into a gross little game of Gotcha.
you are right. it IS dirty. but there is enough ambiguity in the language that you can reasonably argue that many things you put in a note can qualify for a higher billing level without having to compromise yourself. do yourself a favor and bill the higher level when in doubt.I'm currently reviewing as many free examples as I can online, and Jesus this is such a joke...I may take a paid course at some point.
Maybe I don't take myself serious enough to believe that my spitting one sentence at a pt should qualify as any form of diligence when it comes billing.
If a pt has knee OA that is stable and without issue (but always there and annoying at the age of 83) I can throw one sentence into that note and it counts as my managing multiple problems. More points for me.
I hate this bc I feel dirty for checking boxes and counting up points bc it takes my interaction with my pt and turns it into a gross little game of Gotcha.
I agree it's easy. You can easily do a 12 point physical exam from the door. Since I don't usually lay a stethoscope on my patients unless I have a reason, I use the following basic template and adjust/add as necessary.from the opioid refill standpoint, in my opinion, the following exam points would take less than a minute to figure out and could be documented:
psych - personal appearance. well groomed or not. appropriately attired or not. unkempt or foul smelling, especially of alcohol or cigarettes.
Neuro - alert, oriented, awake, responsive, ie "normal", or sleepy, somnolent, slurring of speech, incoherent answers, inappropriate answers, etc.
HEENT - Pupils normal, or fixed, or small, reactive or not, or dilated unexpectedly.
cardiac - document regular rate, rhythm or not.
pulmonary - document breath sounds normal, or "normal".
abdomen - document normal or if distended, firm, quiet, rigid.
and then detailed primary body system, usually musculoskeletal/back.
the included points are to evaluate for side effects from opioid analgesic and are entirely appropriate for patients who are given chronic opioid prescriptions.
and yes, I have seen a patient given ultracet 37.5 twice daily zonked out by her med.
I agree it's easy. You can easily do a 12 point physical exam from the door. Since I don't usually lay a stethoscope on my patients unless I have a reason, I use the following basic template and adjust/add as necessary.
General - No acute distress, well groomed, nourished, developed
Psych - Appropriate mood and affect. Normal speech. Alert and orientated. Awake, Engaged, Appropriate insight and judgement
Eyes - Pupils equal and round. Extraocular movements are intact. No scleral icterus.
Ear/Nose/Throat - External ear normal appearance. External nose normal appearance. Oral mucosa moist.
Neck - No visual masses
Respiratory - Unlabored, No audible wheeze/stridor. Normal effort
Cardiovascular - No edema, cyanosis, or clubbing in extremities
Abdomen - Nondistended
Skin - Normal to visual inspection. No visual rashes or lesions.
Gait - Antalgic
Musculoskeletal - Decreased range of motion of Lumbar spine with extension, sidebending, and rotation bilaterally.
Neuro - Sensation intact
I would also state that if you are giving opiate pain medication, you must at LEAST evaluate their general appearance, psych status, eyes, respiratory effort, abdomen, skin, and MSK.
I agree it's easy. You can easily do a 12 point physical exam from the door. Since I don't usually lay a stethoscope on my patients unless I have a reason, I use the following basic template and adjust/add as necessary.
General - No acute distress, well groomed, nourished, developed
Psych - Appropriate mood and affect. Normal speech. Alert and orientated. Awake, Engaged, Appropriate insight and judgement
Eyes - Pupils equal and round. Extraocular movements are intact. No scleral icterus.
Ear/Nose/Throat - External ear normal appearance. External nose normal appearance. Oral mucosa moist.
Neck - No visual masses
Respiratory - Unlabored, No audible wheeze/stridor. Normal effort
Cardiovascular - No edema, cyanosis, or clubbing in extremities
Abdomen - Nondistended
Skin - Normal to visual inspection. No visual rashes or lesions.
Gait - Antalgic
Musculoskeletal - Decreased range of motion of Lumbar spine with extension, sidebending, and rotation bilaterally.
Neuro - Sensation intact
I would also state that if you are giving opiate pain medication, you must at LEAST evaluate their general appearance, psych status, eyes, respiratory effort, abdomen, skin, and MSK.
by that measure, you probably shouldn't be using that diagnosis to justify chronic opioid therapy...
consider using the diagnosis code of degenerative spinal stenosis, lumbar instead of DDD.
for spondylosis lumbar spine without radiculopathy or myelopathy, I generally use facet arthropathy, lumbar.
Wow. This seems illegalJust checked some of my remittance advices. I noticed that some of my E/M levels were being down-coded by a particular insurance company from 99214 to 99213. The reason for the recoding is that apparently the submitted diagnoses do not support the E/M levels. The insurance company did not even request office notes before the E/M levels were down-coded. Has this happened to anyone else, and is that even legal?
Just checked some of my remittance advices. I noticed that some of my E/M levels were being down-coded by a particular insurance company from 99214 to 99213. The reason for the recoding is that apparently the submitted diagnoses do not support the E/M levels. The insurance company did not even request office notes before the E/M levels were down-coded. Has this happened to anyone else, and is that even legal?
My guess is that they figured you won't fight it or that enough people won't fight it that they'll recoup any legal costs for those that do by those who won't fight it.Wow. This seems illegal
Just checked some of my remittance advices. I noticed that some of my E/M levels were being down-coded by a particular insurance company from 99214 to 99213. The reason for the recoding is that apparently the submitted diagnoses do not support the E/M levels. The insurance company did not even request office notes before the E/M levels were down-coded. Has this happened to anyone else, and is that even legal?
Hey so just wanted to follow-up on this post. I disputed the downcoding of my E/M levels by submitting my office notes for review, and the E&M levels were adjusted back up on review to what I had been billing for those office visits.Just checked some of my remittance advices. I noticed that some of my E/M levels were being down-coded by a particular insurance company from 99214 to 99213. The reason for the recoding is that apparently the submitted diagnoses do not support the E/M levels. The insurance company did not even request office notes before the E/M levels were down-coded. Has this happened to anyone else, and is that even legal?
See 20 patients a day and bill on time with mixes of 3s and 4s. How can they automate out of that?Hey so just wanted to follow-up on this post. I disputed the downcoding of my E/M levels by submitting my office notes for review, and the E&M levels were adjusted back up on review to what I had been billing for those office visits.
I recently got a notice from another insurance company that they will be implementing a new policy soon for "leveling of care," where they will be using an automated algorithm to evaluate each diagnosis code billed with historical claims to determine if the level of E&M service billed is appropriate.
Sounds like the use of this automated algorithm will lead to significant downcoding of E/M levels unless you have been billing 99213s on all of your follow-ups. I noticed that 90% of my downcoded claims have been converted to 99213s based just on my diagnosis codes. Of course, I could submit all of my affected office notes for review, but it's tedious and takes time away from patient care. Anyone else notice this downcoding trend lately by insurance companies? Seems like only 2 of the insurance companies I am contracted with have or will be using this automated algorithm, but I suspect more will follow due to their desire to limit overcoding and "save money." I would pay attention to your reimbursements for this change, as the use of this automated algorithm may become more prevalent.
This is what they are hoping. Increase the PITA factor for you, less in-person review time for them.Hey so just wanted to follow-up on this post. I disputed the downcoding of my E/M levels by submitting my office notes for review, and the E&M levels were adjusted back up on review to what I had been billing for those office visits.
I recently got a notice from another insurance company that they will be implementing a new policy soon for "leveling of care," where they will be using an automated algorithm to evaluate each diagnosis code billed with historical claims to determine if the level of E&M service billed is appropriate.
Sounds like the use of this automated algorithm will lead to significant downcoding of E/M levels unless you have been billing 99213s on all of your follow-ups. I noticed that 90% of my downcoded claims have been converted to 99213s based just on my diagnosis codes. Of course, I could submit all of my affected office notes for review, but it's tedious and takes time away from patient care. Anyone else notice this downcoding trend lately by insurance companies? Seems like only 2 of the insurance companies I am contracted with have or will be using this automated algorithm, but I suspect more will follow due to their desire to limit overcoding and "save money." I would pay attention to your reimbursements for this change, as the use of this automated algorithm may become more prevalent.
So ur charging a level 4 every month?For 2021, the level of MDM for office/outpatient E/Ms continues to be based on 2 out of 3 elements:
1) Problems Addressed
2) Data Reviewed and Analyzed
3) Risk
In terms of problems addressed, a level four visit requires:
1 or more chronic illnesses with exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment;
-or-
2 or more stable chronic illnesses;
and a level 5 visit requires:
1 or more chronic illnesses with severe exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment;
-or-
1 acute or chronic illness or injury that poses a threat to life or bodily function
In terms of Risk:
A level four visit, for example:
A level five visit, for example:
- Prescription drug management
- Drug therapy requiring intensive monitoring for toxicity
So if a patient is on chronic opioid therapy, it seems like a level four visit is very easy to meet. The question is does prescription opioid management with evaluation for toxicity qualify for a level 5 visit? Probably not - guessing that's more for drugs that have a narrow therapeutic window and require continuous blood level monitoring.
But even for problems addressed qualifying for a level 5 doesn't seem that much of a stretch - a patient that has known radiculopathy with severe exacerbation of symptoms or even a patient that has had lumbar RFA in the past and the pain begins to return in a severe nature. Is that a level 5? If radiculopathy limits your ability to walk, is that a threat to bodily function?
It would seem logical that chronic opioid management shouldn’t be a level 5.I don’t think your examples qualify for level 5 visits.
Yes for level 4s for chronic opioid management. You have 2 chronic stable diseases - the primary pain generator that is confirmable on imaging and the use of opioid medication, along with prescription
It would seem logical that chronic opioid management shouldn’t be a level 5.
But this is directly from cms.gov
View attachment 332248
Parenteral controlled substance is classified as high risk straight from CMS.
What to make of this?
It would seem logical that chronic opioid management shouldn’t be a level 5.
But this is directly from cms.gov
View attachment 332248
Parenteral controlled substance is classified as high risk straight from CMS.
What to make of this?
None of the “presenting problems” match that of the monthly visits for med refills tho?It would seem logical that chronic opioid management shouldn’t be a level 5.
But this is directly from cms.gov
View attachment 332248
Parenteral controlled substance is classified as high risk straight from CMS.
What to make of this?
So level 4 for monthly visits? 12 a year?Yeah it seems like level 4 is definitely indicated for patients on chronic opioids - as mentioned above it is one of the riskiest things we do professionally directly related to the risk of patients abusing/misusing them.
Absolutely.So level 4 for monthly visits? 12 a year?
That's not PO opiates.It would seem logical that chronic opioid management shouldn’t be a level 5.
But this is directly from cms.gov
View attachment 332248
Parenteral controlled substance is classified as high risk straight from CMS.
What to make of this?
follow up every month may be overkill. but has to be at least every 3 months.So level 4 for monthly visits? 12 a year?
How do u handle refills?That's not PO opiates.
I don't see monthly. I do Q2M or Q3M for opiates (usually 3).