Official: Univ of Cincinnati, MS Physiology (SMP) - Class of 2009

[CoolSpot7Up]

So I'm trying to make sure I get everything in order before classes start. I've found an apartment, so I'm all set there. Now, I need to get parking on campus. Where do most students park? I was thinking the Eden Garage. There are different rates if you park on Floors 1-7 or on Floor 8. Does it take a long time to get to Floor 8, or is it cheaper since it's on the roof?

Also, since classes start in August, will I need to buy a summer parking decal? The Fall quarter decals will be too late for when I need to start going to class, but it sucks that we have to pay the full price for a summer decal when it's only the last month of the summer term. Any thoughts from the current students?

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[Pedsbro]

So I'm trying to make sure I get everything in order before classes start. I've found an apartment, so I'm all set there. Now, I need to get parking on campus. Where do most students park? I was thinking the Eden Garage. There are different rates if you park on Floors 1-7 or on Floor 8. Does it take a long time to get to Floor 8, or is it cheaper since it's on the roof?

Also, since classes start in August, will I need to buy a summer parking decal? The Fall quarter decals will be too late for when I need to start going to class, but it sucks that we have to pay the full price for a summer decal when it's only the last month of the summer term. Any thoughts from the current students?

Most people park in Eden. Floor 8 does take some time to get to, but if you don't mind parking on the roof on those icy/snowy days, then go for it. Not sure about the summer parking...I would imagine there's some sort of deal about that since all the medical students are in the same boat...I doubt they make them all pay for the whole summer. Call the parking office. I might be wrong, but I think they might prorate it.

 

[CoolSpot7Up]

Most people park in Eden. Floor 8 does take some time to get to, but if you don't mind parking on the roof on those icy/snowy days, then go for it. Not sure about the summer parking...I would imagine there's some sort of deal about that since all the medical students are in the same boat...I doubt they make them all pay for the whole summer. Call the parking office. I might be wrong, but I think they might prorate it.

I called up the parking office and at first the lady told me to purchase a summer decal which is from June-August. I told her I'm starting classes in mid-August so there's no point paying for the whole summer. She then said if I stop by the parking office in person, I can get a 3-week parking pass. She said it has to be in person, I can't buy it online, and to just stop by a couple days before classes start to buy one. Then, I can buy it per quarter like everyone else.

 

[Pedsbro]

I called up the parking office and at first the lady told me to purchase a summer decal which is from June-August. I told her I'm starting classes in mid-August so there's no point paying for the whole summer. She then said if I stop by the parking office in person, I can get a 3-week parking pass. She said it has to be in person, I can't buy it online, and to just stop by a couple days before classes start to buy one. Then, I can buy it per quarter like everyone else.

Yeah, that sounds right. I live in the grad housing, so I park in the University St. Garage, and I had the same situation. They gave me a pass that lasted until the official Fall Parking pass.

 

[senseigmg]

Just got in today! I'm still trying to decide which to pick though...

 

[pepper1234]

is anyone else on the waitlist? (or know how big it is etc... )

has anyone gotten in off the waitlist yet?

 

[Pedsbro]

is anyone else on the waitlist? (or know how big it is etc... )

has anyone gotten in off the waitlist yet?

Keep in mind...applications are still being accepted up to June 1st. So I would imagine you shouldn't expect too much action on the waitlist yet. Just a guess...

 

[FLDoc]

I just talked to the program coordinator today and she said the following:

1. approx. half of the spots are filled
2. there is a "sizeable" waiting list
3. final decisions will be made in the two weeks following the June 1 deadline

 

[jmcappleby]

Hi!

I've already applied once to US schools and was unfortunately not successful. Since then, upon the recommendation of some relatives, I applied to and have gained acceptance to one of the Big 4 Caribbean schools. I recently had a discussion with some friends, relatives, parents, etc. to hear their thoughts and have begun to reconsider my Med school plans and look into the SMP system and giving the US another shot. I know I'm horribly late so I was wondering what people felt about applying now to the UCinn program?

I'm highly partial to this program partly because it is one of the few whose deadline has not passed, and I have relatives who have been to UCinn SOM and speak very highly of it.

1) Based on what FLDoc said it seems like they're still considering applicants - albeit for only the remaining half of the class. So would it be worth it for me to try now? I'm a fairly average/borderline US MD applicant - 3.3-3.4 GPA from UC Berkeley, 31R MCAT, and some research, shadowing and volunteer experience.

2) Another question I had was regarding other SMP applicants/students. Are most SMP applicants in a similar boat as me (i.e. future re-applicants) or are they predominantly recent grads who will be applying for the first time after finishing (or during) the SMP program?

3) Also, regarding OH residency, it says on the website that enrolling in the program qualifies one for OH residency. Does that mean, if accepted and enrolled, assuming I apply to Medical school in June 2009, I can apply as an OH resident? Or would that need a year or something? Forgive my ignorance as to this matter.

Thank you! And Congrats to all those already accepted!

 

[Pedsbro]

Hi!

I've already applied once to US schools and was unfortunately not successful. Since then, upon the recommendation of some relatives, I applied to and have gained acceptance to one of the Big 4 Caribbean schools. I recently had a discussion with some friends, relatives, parents, etc. to hear their thoughts and have begun to reconsider my Med school plans and look into the SMP system and giving the US another shot. I know I'm horribly late so I was wondering what people felt about applying now to the UCinn program?

I'm highly partial to this program partly because it is one of the few whose deadline has not passed, and I have relatives who have been to UCinn SOM and speak very highly of it.

1) Based on what FLDoc said it seems like they're still considering applicants - albeit for only the remaining half of the class. So would it be worth it for me to try now? I'm a fairly average/borderline US MD applicant - 3.3-3.4 GPA from UC Berkeley, 31R MCAT, and some research, shadowing and volunteer experience.

2) Another question I had was regarding other SMP applicants/students. Are most SMP applicants in a similar boat as me (i.e. future re-applicants) or are they predominantly recent grads who will be applying for the first time after finishing (or during) the SMP program?

3) Also, regarding OH residency, it says on the website that enrolling in the program qualifies one for OH residency. Does that mean, if accepted and enrolled, assuming I apply to Medical school in June 2009, I can apply as an OH resident? Or would that need a year or something? Forgive my ignorance as to this matter.

Thank you! And Congrats to all those already accepted!

Well your numbers and ec's are in line with most of us in the program right now, so I would think you'd have as good a chance as any to get in. It is late, but a deadline is a deadline....get your stuff in on time and it'll be looked at.

Most SMP students in general, not just here, are those that have applied at least once before, but a few are first time applicants (i.e. non-traditional students who need a science boost or students who have been out of school for a very long time, etc).

You will have to wait a year for Ohio residency and meet certain requirements and jump through certain hoops. So if you apply in June 2009 to med school and you're in the SMP, you will still be out of state.

 

[Pedsbro]

Just FYI to you newcomers... Someone messaged me about the "Survival Guide" on the program's website. That is out-of-date. It was written by the inaugural class, which did not have to take Medical Microanatomy. That's why you don't see any mention of that. Not sure if our class this year is going to put out a new one...but you'll get a full orientation in August before your 1st day of class.

 

[jmcappleby]

Well your numbers and ec's are in line with most of us in the program right now, so I would think you'd have as good a chance as any to get in. It is late, but a deadline is a deadline....get your stuff in on time and it'll be looked at.

Most SMP students in general, not just here, are those that have applied at least once before, but a few are first time applicants (i.e. non-traditional students who need a science boost or students who have been out of school for a very long time, etc).

You will have to wait a year for Ohio residency and meet certain requirements and jump through certain hoops. So if you apply in June 2009 to med school and you're in the SMP, you will still be out of state.

Thanks for the answer.

For the purpose of residency, theoretically speaking, if I matriculated in the SMP in August would I still be able to claim OH residency for my June 2009 AMCAS since I will essentially be a resident by the time I've done my secondary/interview/matriculation?

Also, if a class of 2009 SMP student applies to Med School in June 2009, what do they generally do for that year leading up to their matriculation in Aug 2010? Or does the fact that they've taken first-year med school courses mean they can sort of "jump" into the school year?

 

[Pedsbro]

Thanks for the answer.

For the purpose of residency, theoretically speaking, if I matriculated in the SMP in August would I still be able to claim OH residency for my June 2009 AMCAS since I will essentially be a resident by the time I've done my secondary/interview/matriculation?

Also, if a class of 2009 SMP student applies to Med School in June 2009, what do they generally do for that year leading up to their matriculation in Aug 2010? Or does the fact that they've taken first-year med school courses mean they can sort of "jump" into the school year?

1. If you moved here in July, you can probably get away with claiming residency in June 2009, since you'll probably want to wait for the Spring 2009 grades to come out, which will take you to 3rd week or so in June...which means by the time your AMCAS is verified, it'll be July. More than a month difference would be risky, but it's possible. A few people are trying that this year, but obviously I don't know how it's going to work out.

2. What do they do? Whatever they want! I'm in that boat...I'm planning on working and trying to begin paying off the loans I took out for the SMP. Most people I know will be working... You'll also be busy filling out secondaries, going to interviews (hopefully), etc. So do whatever you want...work, research, volunteer, travel the world, etc.
You don't skip a school year because you're not taking the entire 1st year med school curriculum (you don't take Brain and Behavior, Gross Anatomy, CFMP, etc). As of now, you don't get "credit" for having taken the other three courses, but there are other advantages to retaking these classes if you get into UC med school (i.e. extra review for Step 1). See an earlier post I wrote about that...

 

[TakingTheLongRd]

I found out on Wednesday that I am on the waitlist. Anyone else? I'm crossing my fingers. My email letter says that acceptance is possible all the way up to Aug 13th (orientation). Does anyone know how long orientation lasts? Is it a day or three days? Thanks

 

[Shawshank13]

I spoke with Dr. Banks today and the waitlist is currently around 100 people and he will tell you which third of the waitlist that you are in.

 

[Pedsbro]

I found out on Wednesday that I am on the waitlist. Anyone else? I'm crossing my fingers. My email letter says that acceptance is possible all the way up to Aug 13th (orientation). Does anyone know how long orientation lasts? Is it a day or three days? Thanks

Most of one day...6-8 hours long. You meet your classmates, many of the professors who will be teaching you, and get a rundown on the year...classes, thesis, shadowing opportunities, etc. Then you get a tour of the campus and a few other people talk to you. Don't miss it! It's a few days before your first day of class.

 

[Daedalus]

Anyone know how much of the waitlist they went through last year?

 

[pepper1234]

I spoke with Dr. Banks today and the waitlist is currently around 100 people and he will tell you which third of the waitlist that you are in.

do we need to call for this information or will we get an email about it?

 

[Shawshank13]

If you email him ([email protected]) he is very helpful.. seems like a great guy!

 

[cc1183]

Just received my acceptance e-mail . Thought I'd drop by and say hello. Any others who have been accepted please e-mail for questions or anything else.

 

[ltw902]

Can anyone post their stats with which they got an acceptance letter from them? I'm strongly considering applying to this SMP this upcoming year.
Thanks!

 

[pinkipod]

I just received an e-mail from Karen Coleman that my application is complete as of today because she just received my last LOR.
We'll see how it goes.

GPA: 3.3 MCAT 38R

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[paveen]

Does the program automatically send out an email notification of a completed application? I sent everything in two months ago and have not heard? I'm applying to SMP programs because one of my LOR writers did not bother to send them in when I applied to med schools. I want to make sure the same thing did not happen again even though I used different people for them on my SMP applications

 

[pinkipod]

Does UC provide financial aid? Loans?
Or did you have to get private loans?

 

[Pedsbro]

Does UC provide financial aid? Loans?
Or did you have to get private loans?

You get the usual government loans through FAFSA...Stafford, GradPLUS, etc. If those don't cover it, I guess you can get private loans, but I'm pretty sure the govt loans covered everyone just fine.

 

[bjb305]

Thanks for the answer.

For the purpose of residency, theoretically speaking, if I matriculated in the SMP in August would I still be able to claim OH residency for my June 2009 AMCAS since I will essentially be a resident by the time I've done my secondary/interview/matriculation?

Also, if a class of 2009 SMP student applies to Med School in June 2009, what do they generally do for that year leading up to their matriculation in Aug 2010? Or does the fact that they've taken first-year med school courses mean they can sort of "jump" into the school year?

To correct what Pedsbro told you...
I was out of state before this program and waited till this summer to apply. I moved here July 31st, so I will not technically be a resident of Ohio till then. I spoke with the Assistant Dean of Admissions Dr. Manuel and he said that if you are going to be a resident in July or early August, you can submit your primary application as an Ohio resident at anytime. So yes, you can submit June 1st even though you won't be a resident at that time as long as you did everything to properly attain residency.

 

[Vihsadas]

Guys, I think there might be a change of plans...I'm unsure whether I'm going to be attending any SMP this year. It seems that some adcoms don't have serious reservations about my academics anymore since my last semesters grades. I mean, if I were to be absolutely honest with myself and think about what I actually WANT to do in the next year, it would be to immerse myself hardcore in some translational research both on the basic sciences and clinical sciences side, and to keep volunteering (god I love it!) and to start up the charity idea that I've been hatching. I almost think that doing these things next year, in addition to being exactly what I want to do, would be better for my application...

 

[CoolSpot7Up]

Guys, I think there might be a change of plans...I'm unsure whether I'm going to be attending any SMP this year. It seems that some adcoms don't have serious reservations about my academics anymore since my last semesters grades. I mean, if I were to be absolutely honest with myself and think about what I actually WANT to do in the next year, it would be to immerse myself hardcore in some translational research both on the basic sciences and clinical sciences side, and to keep volunteering (god I love it!) and to start up the charity idea that I've been hatching. I almost think that doing these things next year, in addition to being exactly what I want to do, would be better for my application...

Hey Vihsadas, that sounds awesome! It's good that you were able to sort out what you needed to do before jumping in. Good luck with everything you decide to do and the med school application process!

 

[Vihsadas]

Hey Vihsadas, that sounds awesome! It's good that you were able to sort out what you needed to do before jumping in. Good luck with everything you decide to do and the med school application process!

Thanks man. I really appreciate that. Welp, it's done! I've sent out my electronic withdrawal, and my written withdrawal letter has been written up today. So hopefully one of our deserving guys on SDN gets pulled off the waitlist into that 20 person class of 2009! Good luck guys,

I'm officially withdrawn!

 

[nycbeatz]

hey, i apparently didn't see the acceptance in my email, but got in this monday...and i will be attending, stats for anyone interested 3.2 gpa, 35 MCAT. I'm getting a little nervious about moving etc. For those of you who applied late, I applied a week before the deadline.

 

[FLDoc]

So...

I recieved an acceptance email on Friday. But it was addressed to someone else!!!! Hopefully its just a mistake and im in the program.

 

[CoolSpot7Up]

So...

I recieved an acceptance email on Friday. But it was addressed to someone else!!!! Hopefully its just a mistake and im in the program.

Haha, I hope you get in. They probably just copied and pasted their standard acceptance letter in an email to your email address, and forgot to change the name at the top.

 

[valiance17]

I just got in a few days ago, and I'm trying to decide whether or not to go. I have a 2.6 Undergrad GPA, 35S MCAT and a single semester postbacc from CUNY Hunter in which I received a 3.67. I'm questioning whether I should continue with the (much cheaper) postbacc or if the SMP is for me--despite the additional costs. The SMP feels a lot more definite, like taking these medical school classes will prove I have the right stuff. The postbacc feels wishy washy.

 

[FLDoc]

I spoke with Dr. Banks today and he assured me that I am in the Program!!

If there are any who applied late, dont dispair yet! I sent my app. in on June 1st (stats: UGPA:3.13 MCAT: 33).

I want to get some imput on housing from the program vets and those who have a place for 2008-09.

Scioto-Morgens Complex will be closing Aug. 31st so i dont think there will be any on-campus housing for the year. But University Park apartments may be a possibility-utilities, internet, and cable included for a reasonable price. Are there typically alot of undergrads???

For off-campus Corryville seems to be the best location. There is a place on Shields st. literally a block from all three hospitals for $450/mo. But only basement units are availible, which mean easy access for criminals. Should I be concerned? Would it be better to shell out $700+ at highland commons apts. or stetson square apts. and not worry about my computer while im away for a weekend?

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

 

[4paw]

there are two little triangles of streets very near campus - just north of the parking lot that is north of the pharmacy building (which means just south of the zoo, apparently you can hear the sound of elephants in the morning, which i think is v. cool). there is another little triangle where i lived, i thought it was awesome because it was walking distance to school, to main campus, and also to ludlow with coffee shop and alternative cinema, and it was safe, and also right near a big park with a pond and a park path to the ludlow cinema... that's a little triangle of west nixon, bishop street, and all in there.
i'd say try and avoid corryville proper, but that's only because we're not from here, so we don't have the time to know the more micro-environment of which street is good, which not good. at the same time, i know a couple people who lived in coryville proper and found it o.k.


all the best in the year ahead. for those trying to prove marks stuff, the programme is awesome. imo fwiw i think it's better than a post-bacc *if* you have the prereq courses under your belt already. i.e. if you are prepared with a few sciences to go and bat large in med school, which is what you'll be doing basically! there used to be a few times i could remember when we'd talk about the nature of smps - that we're doing med school and trying to do really well, and wouldn't it be easier if we were just in med school as a med student. but hey, smpers have heart - we prove it by what we take on, the odds we overcome, i think that comes through in application processes. low grades sometimes mean two years before the ultimate acceptance, so that a school can see your final results from the smp, but they work eventually.

just remember, SELF CARE SELF CARE SELF CARE it's a marathon it's a beast it's a rollercoaster that hit the ground running thing is really true. be in fine form, you are the athlete, and athletes do a lot of work for how to be in the zone. find your zone, don't skimp on that one.

go get em!

 

[CoolSpot7Up]

I spoke with Dr. Banks today and he assured me that I am in the Program!!

If there are any who applied late, dont dispair yet! I sent my app. in on June 1st (stats: UGPA:3.13 MCAT: 33).

I want to get some imput on housing from the program vets and those who have a place for 2008-09.

Scioto-Morgens Complex will be closing Aug. 31st so i dont think there will be any on-campus housing for the year. But University Park apartments may be a possibility-utilities, internet, and cable included for a reasonable price. Are there typically alot of undergrads???

For off-campus Corryville seems to be the best location. There is a place on Shields st. literally a block from all three hospitals for $450/mo. But only basement units are availible, which mean easy access for criminals. Should I be concerned? Would it be better to shell out $700+ at highland commons apts. or stetson square apts. and not worry about my computer while im away for a weekend?

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

When I visited, I got the impression that the area right around the hospital was pretty bad. I also checked out Highland Commons and places on Stetson, and although they were very nice, the area still sucked. There aren't too many grocery stores, etc. that are within walking distance.

If you'll have a car, I'd suggest Clifton/Gaslight or Hyde Park. That seems to be the trend for other SMP and UC Med students.

If you live close to school, I feel rent is increased for those wanting to have easy access to the hospital, but you'll still have to drive far to other necessities. If you live farther, yeah you'll have to wake up earlier to drive to class, but everything else will be close by.

 

[4paw]

so to put that together - just around the hospital to the south is not great. the little triangle near the zoo is the northwest corner. gaslight is what i'm calling ludlow with the coffee shop and theatre. clifton is not good around riddle road etc. clifton is a good landmark with the skyline chili when it crosses ludlow/jefferson, it's the start of the gaslight. this will all make sense with a map

 

[Pedsbro]

I lived on campus in the grad housing, which is going to be closed and therefore not an option. University Park apts has mostly undergrads, but grad students can live there I think. If I remember correctly though, they are set up like dorms...4-6 people per suite. There are some good areas and some bad ones in the immediate vicinity of school; it sometimes changes block to block. Also, there are grocery and drug stores close by, so that's not an issue. Plenty of shops and restaurants on Calhoun St next to the West Campus and down on Ludlow. Gaslight District is nicer than Clifton and close to the school (and probably a little "safer"), but do realize no matter what you're in a major city and you need to be smart to be safe. Most of the crime warnings they sent to students were things that happened to people walking alone in secluded areas at 1-3am...not smart anywhere. Avoid living in Over the Rhine, even though rents will be cheap. Some parts of Corryville are suspect also, but very close the hospital probably is safer... Downtown is actually not bad imo; one guy lived there with his gf in a nice apartment.

Hyde Park is nice, though farther and more costly than Clifton. Rents are mixed near the school: you may have found expensive ones, but I assure you there are also very cheap ones. I saw a 1BR apartment for about $400 a month (some utils included) the other day. Go to apartmentratings.com and see what they say. For example, as nice and expensive as Stetson looks, it gets pretty bad reviews on there. Being close to the school was very convenient, but if the only places available were in shady-looking areas, than I would rather live slightly farther away and have peace of mind.
There really isn't much traffic here and the only time driving becomes a hassle is during snow days (the med school does not close for snow, so wake up extra early those days). I noticed Cinci isn't always very efficient with the plows/salting. For those of you who don't have experience with snow driving, like me, make sure you have snow or all-weather tires, change out your windshield wiper fluid to one with the lowest possible freezing point, and buy a snow brush and ice-scraper for your windshield and windows. Again...a nice thing about being close to school was I never had to worry about driving to class in the snow. Also remember, the bus is free for UC students. There are plenty of nice areas around here...just gotta find them.

 

[4paw]

hey pedsbro
happy thesising

 

[CoolSpot7Up]

There really isn't much traffic here and the only time driving becomes a hassle is during snow days (the med school does not close for snow, so wake up extra early those days). I noticed Cinci isn't always very efficient with the plows/salting. For those of you who don't have experience with snow driving, like me, make sure you have snow or all-weather tires, change out your windshield wiper fluid to one with the lowest possible freezing point, and buy a snow brush and ice-scraper for your windshield and windows. Again...a nice thing about being close to school was I never had to worry about driving to class in the snow. Also remember, the bus is free for UC students. There are plenty of nice areas around here...just gotta find them.

Nice info dude. You guys definitely have better opinions on housing. My impressions were based on 2 days of searching and mostly superficial by driving past places. I guess there should be some nice options close to the school.

It's good to know traffic is low. I spoke with a mail woman at the apartment I'm staying at in Hyde Park when she passed by, and she said traffic is really bad around 7-8 AM. She seemed to really exaggerate though. I went to school in Chicago, so I'm not really sure what "bad traffic" means anymore. I'm assuming my commute might be around 15-20 minutes though (I'll most likely take 71S to get to the school since I'm right next to it).

 

[FLDoc]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think i'll need to see some of these places in person before I make a final decision.

Any looking for a male roommate let me know.

 

[Pedsbro]

Nice info dude. You guys definitely have better opinions on housing. My impressions were based on 2 days of searching and mostly superficial by driving past places. I guess there should be some nice options close to the school.

It's good to know traffic is low. I spoke with a mail woman at the apartment I'm staying at in Hyde Park when she passed by, and she said traffic is really bad around 7-8 AM. She seemed to really exaggerate though. I went to school in Chicago, so I'm not really sure what "bad traffic" means anymore. I'm assuming my commute might be around 15-20 minutes though (I'll most likely take 71S to get to the school since I'm right next to it).

If you're right next to 71, then that's faster. I am from Southern California...probably the worst traffic in the country after NYC. So to me, there is no such thing as traffic here. Rush hour is probably 7-8am, and 5-6pm, but it's not bad. Most of you probably won't be using the freeway to get to school anyway. There are nice places close to school, but they are popular for the obvious reasons and hard to find.

-Definitely come and check out places in person if possible and see what you think...everyone has different tastes in apartments, so our opinion are only so useful...

 

[FLDoc]

For those still on the waitlist:

Dr. Banks informed us that there are still ~5 open spots so don't lose hope!!

 

[Praetorian7]

Thats awesome! Do you know approx. how many are on the waitlist?

 

[FLDoc]

No sorry

But an earlier post said that Dr. Banks will give out some information about the waitlist and your relative position if your contact him (length of list, your relative position, etc.)

His email is [email protected] or
[email protected] (Probably the same acct, first is off the UC website).

Hope this helps and good luck!!

 

[valiance17]

I think I'll be seeing you guys in 2 months.

 

[onokentauros]

Hey everyone,
I got into the program! Does anyone still need or want a house/apartment/roommate?

 

[nycbeatz]

Hey everyone,
I got into the program! Does anyone still need or want a house/apartment/roommate?

Hey, yeah i'm looking for a female roomate, send me a Pm if this applies

 

[FLDoc]

NYC, I know Sara (fellow ND grad) is still looking for housing. Shoot her an email.

 

[Sangoma]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think i'll need to see some of these places in person before I make a final decision.

Any looking for a male roommate let me know.

Hey there...I'm new to the forum, but am also looking for a male roommate for the upcoming year. PM me if you are still looking. I also agree with checking out places before making a decision.