Official Diploma Mill List

[opo]

Accepting CC students does not lower the pool? And whoever said anything about low GPA and low PCAT?

You last comment was classic however. You say you think everyone should ignore this guy? How do you think I feel? There are not many people on here that are on the same side as me, yet you don't see me saying ignore this and that person. If you can't be open to anothers perspective then I dont think you should comment at all.

I wouldn't say I need help, when all I am trying to do is instead of making this a BOO NEW SCHOOLS thread, is bring light to the other end of the spectrum. Like it or not, it exists, not everyone agrees with what the as you said, "consensus". And adding little emoticons that depict me? Ha, God I hope I never am old and in need of help at a pharmacy and look up and have to have you on the other end. You'd be surprised how close individuals actions on messages boards are with their lifestlye. Wish you the best of luck. I am sure you will make a smart and highly educated pharmacist, but open minded.. forget it.

I definitely don't think that just because someone went to community college they are incompetent. I think that when someone goes to whatever school and gets a sub 3.0 GPA and less than 65 (hell, even less than ~70) and still get into a pharmacy school, there is a problem. It's a joke to get into school, plain and simple. The prereq's most schools aren't that difficult and the PCAT certainly isn't. If you find it difficult, then maybe this isn't the profession for you After all, that's why there's, well, at least there's supposed to be, standards.

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[Celticspride58]

I completely agree that just because you went to the top ranked school that you are not automatically better. The problem with these new schools is they are lowering the standards to become a pharmacist. Celticspride mentioned these new schools are giving people the opportunity to become pharmacists that would not have normally been able to before these new schools came with these lower standards. No offense, but I wouldn't want to be talking to a surgeon and hear him/her say "well there's no way I would have gotten into med school before, but they opened all these new schools and now anyone can be an MD just because they want to!" There's reasons that not everyone should be allowed to be a physician just like not everyone should be a pharmacist, regardless of your hopes and dreams. If you're not smart enough, then you should not be allowed to become a physician, pharmacist, nurse, or whatever, even if you really, really, really want to be. Once again, like I said, it's lowering the standards of the profession. I can't wait to see the first TV commercial for an online pharmacy school where grades don't matter for admission as long as you want to be a pharmacist really bad...

Just because a new school opens up does not mean that it doesnt have the potential to one day be known as one of the best. All schools have to get their start from some where.

And you totally took what I said out of context. I agree that there are some people out there who even though they want to be a pharmacist do not have what it takes to become one. Attending a newer school does not mean that you are not smart enough.

I just find it comical because I feel that sometimes people fail to realize there was a world before each and every one of us was here that shaped our views of these top tier schools. Who is to say that one day, years and years from now, that a newer school couldn't be known as prestge?

 

[Celticspride58]

I definitely don't think that just because someone went to community college they are incompetent. I think that when someone goes to whatever school and gets a sub 3.0 GPA and less than 65 (hell, even less than ~70) and still get into a pharmacy school, there is a problem. It's a joke to get into school, plain and simple. The prereq's most schools aren't that difficult and the PCAT certainly isn't. If you find it difficult, then maybe this isn't the profession for you After all, that's why there's, well, at least there's supposed to be, standards.

I entirely agree with having standards, I never said anything about there not being standards, but when you say it that way, you make it sound like newer institutions do not have any. As if you are saying they let anyone in, when that is not the case.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I did most of my pre-pharmacy at a community college. This CC had a chemistry instructor whose was tough, but you learned a lot and there were people who took chemistry from him rather than use the inferior professors at the 4-year schools in the area - one of which has a COP.

One of my classmates asked him why he didn't teach at a university, and he said it was because if he did that, he would have to do research, mentor graduate students, etc. and he didn't want to do that even though he could probably have doubled his salary by going that route.

Yeah, I did some of my prereqs at CC too, b/c it was cheaper and the scheduling was better than the unversity. The classes were just fine. I had one CC prof who was one of the most gifted math teachers I've ever had. Just b/c prereqs are from CC doesn't make them bad.

I had classmates in my class at UK (a Top 10 school, ooooooo!) who took 100% of their prereqs in the Kentucky CC system. I don't think they had any idea they were "lower quality" students.

If you can't be open to anothers perspective then I dont think you should comment at all.

Yes, telling others to ignore someone simply b/c you don't agree with them is lame. We're all just sharing our opinions here. Opinions are like *******s, everyone has one. And everyone is entitled to their own.

He may be naive and misguided, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say there's any true consensus on this topic. I disagree with him as well, but I'm not sure why you feel like mocking him is worthwhile. Civil debate, anybody?

Thank you! People can declare consensus all they want, but it really means nothing and everyone is still entitled to their various opinions. And I really don't like the turn this thread is taking where mocking and insults are substituted for discussion. I appreciate the other members who have tried to get the discussion back on track and not made it personal.

 

[Celticspride58]

He may be naive and misguided, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say there's any true consensus on this topic. I disagree with him as well, but I'm not sure why you feel like mocking him is worthwhile. Civil debate, anybody?

Although I appreciate the somewhat support, how are you to say I am naive and misguided? Just because I do not agree with what YOU or most others in the thread find to be true does not make me either. It makes me an individual with an opinion who is trying to bring light to what many write off.

 

[PharmD RPh]

He may be naive and misguided, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say there's any true consensus on this topic. I disagree with him as well, but I'm not sure why you feel like mocking him is worthwhile. Civil debate, anybody?

According to other posters in NY, this is the 4th school to open in a heavily saturated market..... consensus = bad! Maybe a I should rephrase, there are 2 different consensus' out there.... 1. Students that can only get into, or that currently attend schools that are perceived as "diploma mills" depend their school while 2. Everyone else says its a bad idea.

Again, I'm not against new programs, but come on, 4 new programs in the same saturated area is reckless for the profession and its guys like CelticsPride that keeps enabling such programs. Everyone needs to take a read of the NY Times story on the law school issues and hopefully comprehend we're not far away.

 

[R2pharmD2]

Although I appreciate the somewhat support, how are you to say I am naive and misguided? Just because I do not agree with what YOU or most others in the thread find to be true does not make me either. It makes me an individual with an opinion who is trying to bring light to what many write off.

Don't take it personally. I'm a bit of a pessimist by nature and to me, anyone who is purely optimistic about the future of pharmacy seems pretty naive. There's no right or wrong here, but I don't see how anyone who has looked at the facts can reach such a positive conclusion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though, and I have no intention of belittling you for it.

 

[PharmD RPh]

All4MyDaughter;10481149]Yeah, I did some of my prereqs at CC too, b/c it was cheaper and the scheduling was better than the unversity. The classes were just fine. I had one CC prof who was one of the most gifted math teachers I've ever had. Just b/c prereqs are from CC doesn't make them bad.

I had classmates in my class at UK (a Top 10 school, ooooooo!) who took 100% of their prereqs in the Kentucky CC system. I don't think they had any idea they were "lower quality" students.

I think you missed my point... schools are accepting students that are taking the easy road, i.e. community college, low pcat, low gpa etc. are lowering standards. Just like one other poster said, a business degree from Yale is not equivalent to one from community college. We don't need to open up college of pharmacies so that everyone can be a pharmacist that wants to. There needs to be elite standards amongst the profession or we'll soon see our profession's reputation discredited by other health science disciplines.

 

[Celticspride58]

I think you missed my point... schools are accepting students that are taking the easy road, i.e. community college, low pcat, low gpa etc. are lowering standards. Just like one other poster said, a business degree from Yale is not equivalent to one from community college. We don't need to open up college of pharmacies so that everyone can be a pharmacist that wants to. There needs to be elite standards amongst the profession or we'll soon see our profession's reputation discredited by other health science disciplines.

Could you please tell me how CC is the easy road? Not everyone who goes to CC couldn't get into a 4 year school. PLENTY of people are there because they are raising a family or are parents. Last time I checked being a parent, working, and going to school was the furthest thing from the easy way out.

 

[R2pharmD2]

Again, I'm not against new programs, but come on, 4 new programs in the same saturated area is reckless for the profession and its guys like CelticsPride that keeps enabling such programs. Everyone needs to take a read of the NY Times story on the law school issues and hopefully comprehend we're not far away.

I agree that the number of new programs is excessive, but you can't blame the students who take advantage of them. Given the choice of giving up on their dream or taking what they can get, who wouldn't pick going to one of these new schools? Can you really blame them?

 

[PharmD RPh]

Could you please tell me how CC is the easy road? Not everyone who goes to CC couldn't get into a 4 year school. PLENTY of people are there because they are raising a family or are parents. Last time I checked being a parent, working, and going to school was the furthest thing from the easy way out.

I know community colleges are easier than traditional universities. Now if you can go to community college and do all your pre-pharm coursework there, and rock out a 99% on the PCAT, then that's different. But you can't sit here and tell me that you can compare a GPA from community college to a GPA from Yale.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think you missed my point... schools are accepting students that are taking the easy road, i.e. community college, low pcat, low gpa etc. are lowering standards. Just like one other poster said, a business degree from Yale is not equivalent to one from community college. We don't need to open up college of pharmacies so that everyone can be a pharmacist that wants to. There needs to be elite standards amongst the profession or we'll soon see our profession's reputation discredited by other health science disciplines.

I didn't miss your point. I just don't agree with many of your points. You shouldn't assume that everyone who disagrees with you "doesn't understand" or "doesn't get the point" or is "hard to get through to" or whatever. It's quite arrogant and could make you appear self-centered and petulant. You won't convince everyone of the superiority of your opinions. That's life.

In my post you quoted above, I was actually responding to someone else (not you) and we were discussing how CC prereqs aren't as bad as some on this board make them out to be. Not sure how that constitutes "missing your point."

 

[PharmD RPh]

I agree that the number of new programs is excessive, but you can't blame the students who take advantage of them. Given the choice of giving up on their dream or taking what they can get, who wouldn't pick going to one of these new schools? Can you really blame them?

No I agree that the schools are more to blame, but the students of those schools are at fault as well for buying into false aspirations and enabling these programs to exist. Check out this open letter from a student at Boston College law school to the school's dean. http://eagleionline.com/2010/10/15/open-letter-to-interim-dean-brown/

Students that attend these programs will soon find themselves wanting to write the same letter their last year of school.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I know community colleges are easier than traditional universities. Now if you can go to community college and do all your pre-pharm coursework there, and rock out a 99% on the PCAT, then that's different. But you can't sit here and tell me that you can compare a GPA from community college to a GPA from Yale.

Yes a degree from a CC and from Yale are two different things. But what about other universities? There are tons of universities people don't know about. Is a degree from a CC not as a good as one from the university of phoenix? That's a university, too! Or what about a community college that is ranked in the "top 30" in the country, is that not as good as a university that isn't a "top 30?"

Quick google, nothing overly serious in research found this: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2010/community_colleges.php


So if someone went to one of those, for example, is that not as good as going to a university that no one has heard from?

It's always easy to do a comparison between 2 extremes. But it's harder to do when to things hit a gray line. Everyone throws out ivy league like it's amazing and others throw out CC like it's trash. But if people don't go to either one, do they not exist?

 

[Celticspride58]

I know community colleges are easier than traditional universities. Now if you can go to community college and do all your pre-pharm coursework there, and rock out a 99% on the PCAT, then that's different. But you can't sit here and tell me that you can compare a GPA from community college to a GPA from Yale.

I dont think anyone on here is trying to compare a CC GPA to one from Yale? And I think you should do more research on saying that you "know" that CC are easier than trad. universities. As far as content goes and teachers, you are in no position to say one way or another. There are many CC out there that have great standards and professors. And geting a 99% on the PCAT is great and I would give kudos to anyone who has done that, or even near that, but even if one is not to get that score or isn't to do as well.. but you are in a sense going against your own point.

You are saying that if someone goes to a CC and gets a 99% on the PCAT then thats okay, but if someone goes to CC and doesn't get near there, or does poorly then the CC is not okay? And how are you to account for all those who go to CC and do great on the PCAT, v.s. those who go to 4 year schools and do poor? You have no backing to your argument at all. One minute you say CC is the easy way out, then the next its deemed acceptable if they are to get a 99% on the PCAT?

 

[PharmD RPh]

I didn't miss your point. I just don't agree with many of your points. You shouldn't assume that everyone who disagrees with you "doesn't understand" or "doesn't get the point" or is "hard to get through to" or whatever. It's quite arrogant and could make you appear self-centered and petulant. You won't convince everyone of the superiority of your opinions. That's life.

In my post you quoted above, I was actually responding to someone else (not you) and we were discussing how CC prereqs aren't as bad as some on this board make them out to be. Not sure how that constitutes "missing your point."

While not responding to my quote directly, you subtly took a shot at UK, which you know is my alma mater to try to make a point about community colleges which wasn't really the point I was trying to make to begin with.

And you're right, we don't agree. I guess only time will tell how students of all these diploma mills actually turn out. If its like a professor at UNC Chapel Hill predicts, we'll see a mass closure of programs.

 

[PharmD RPh]

Yes a degree from a CC and from Yale are two different things. But what about other universities? There are tons of universities people don't know about. Is a degree from a CC not as a good as one from the university of phoenix? That's a university, too! Or what about a community college that is ranked in the "top 30" in the country, is that not as good as a university that isn't a "top 30?"

Quick google, nothing overly serious in research found this: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2010/community_colleges.php


So if someone went to one of those, for example, is that not as good as going to a university that no one has heard from?

It's always easy to do a comparison between 2 extremes. But it's harder to do when to things hit a gray line. Everyone throws out ivy league like it's amazing and others throw out CC like it's trash. But if people don't go to either one, do they not exist?

When I made the community college post, I made it in conjunction with low PCAT, low GPA etc. The PCAT serves a purpose in your gray distinctions. It allows 2 students that went to lets say community college and a state name university compare against each other's knowledge base of the courses they took at their respective schools. The student that scored higher on the PCAT was obviously more prepared by their school. And yes, I do know of people that went community college route that scored in the 90's on the PCAT.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

While not responding to my quote directly, you subtly took a shot at UK, which you know is my alma mater to try to make a point about community colleges which wasn't really the point I was trying to make to begin with.

And you're right, we don't agree. I guess only time will tell how students of all these diploma mills actually turn out. If its like a professor at UNC Chapel Hill predicts, we'll see a mass closure of programs.

Not taking sides there but A4MD went to University of Kentucky for a while so that is why she used that example I believe. She doesn't normally take cheap shots like that. I'm not supporting one opinion or another though with that. It's in her profile. She transferred though I believe if I was keeping up right.

 

[PharmD RPh]

I dont think anyone on here is trying to compare a CC GPA to one from Yale? And I think you should do more research on saying that you "know" that CC are easier than trad. universities. As far as content goes and teachers, you are in no position to say one way or another. There are many CC out there that have great standards and professors. And geting a 99% on the PCAT is great and I would give kudos to anyone who has done that, or even near that, but even if one is not to get that score or isn't to do as well.. but you are in a sense going against your own point.

You are saying that if someone goes to a CC and gets a 99% on the PCAT then thats okay, but if someone goes to CC and doesn't get near there, or does poorly then the CC is not okay? And how are you to account for all those who go to CC and do great on the PCAT, v.s. those who go to 4 year schools and do poor? You have no backing to your argument at all. One minute you say CC is the easy way out, then the next its deemed acceptable if they are to get a 99% on the PCAT?

I think the PCAT makes the playing ground level for comparisons of students from different schools whether it be community college or not. But what I'm saying is that most traditional pharmacy programs will view a community college on average as a less rigorous curriculum than some of your traditional universities. You can't compare a student that gets a 4.0 gpa at community college to a student that went to a top 50 university and got a 3.4 gpa. You then go to their PCAT scores. If someone can show me stats that students of community college score higher on PCAT than those of traditional universities, then I'll apologize and stand corrected. And I'm not saying its impossible to go CC and not get in or do well enough on the PCAT and get in.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

When I made the community college post, I made it in conjunction with low PCAT, low GPA etc. The PCAT serves a purpose in your gray distinctions. It allows 2 students that went to lets say community college and a state name university compare against each other's knowledge base of the courses they took at their respective schools. The student that scored higher on the PCAT was obviously more prepared by their school. And yes, I do know of people that went community college route that scored in the 90's on the PCAT.

I understand your viewpoint there. My objection was simply how a person at CC had to prove more by going to a CC than someone at a university. A person with an 80 PCAT at a university has a better chance than a person with an 80 PCAT at a CC, does that sound correct to you? If not please tell me.

It just doesn't click with me that people have to prove more doing one or the other with relatively few exceptions like ivy league or non-accredited technical schools (not really CCs but some people think/treat them like they are). If you go to one or the other and succeed past the standards set there then you should have equal opportunity. If you question the standards of a CC or university then you have to question the standards of all universities or CC or pharmacy schools for accepting them and how they graduate their students, not just one or two of them.

And I'm not getting hot here or anything. I always enjoy a good debate so well-played so far, good sir


EDIT: Looking at the last post you had as well, a top 50 university only represents a small fraction of universities available to students. What about people who don't go a top 50, are they "just as good" as a community college?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Not taking sides there but A4MD went to University of Kentucky for a while so that is why she used that example I believe. She doesn't normally take cheap shots like that. I'm not supporting one opinion or another though with that. It's in her profile. She transferred though I believe if I was keeping up right.

You're correct. It wasn't a "cheap shot" at all. The spirit of my post was countering the "CC prereqs are bad" argument (it's a recurring theme on SDN). In bringing up UK I had two goals: 1) to point out that accepting CC prereqs is not a diploma mill phenomena and does in fact occur at elite schools and 2) and to point out that my UK classmates with CC prereqs were not in fact "lower quality" students who took the easy way out. They were actually very good students who are now licensed pharmacists.

 

[Celticspride58]

I think the PCAT makes the playing ground level for comparisons of students from different schools whether it be community college or not. But what I'm saying is that most traditional pharmacy programs will view a community college on average as a less rigorous curriculum than some of your traditional universities. You can't compare a student that gets a 4.0 gpa at community college to a student that went to a top 50 university and got a 3.4 gpa. You then go to their PCAT scores. If someone can show me stats that students of community college score higher on PCAT than those of traditional universities, then I'll apologize and stand corrected. And I'm not saying its impossible to go CC and not get in or do well enough on the PCAT and get in.

I don't find it necessary to go dig through on the internet to find facts just to prove my opinion and personal accounts correct. I haven't asked you to do such, so in return I find it quite dismissive.

I wish you luck in your pharmacy practice and working with interns, I really do. It doesn't seem as if you will even slightly open your mind to anyones elses idea unless it was published by some professor at Yale, or UNC.. and to be quite frank, this is a message board where opinions and friendly debates should take place. You took it from one extreme to the next, but regardless I hope you find it within you one day to potentially see that although you may not agree with someone on an issue, not everything they are saying should be thrown out the window.

 

[PharmD RPh]

Jabberwocky12;10481319]I understand your viewpoint there. My objection was simply how a person at CC had to prove more by going to a CC than someone at a university. A person with an 80 PCAT at a university has a better chance than a person with an 80 PCAT at a CC, does that sound correct to you? If not please tell me.

Agreed. Just as with everything else there are different tiers of schools and community college is considered lower tiered than traditional universities. From an admissions standpoint, you would have to do exceptionally well in other areas.. interview, PCAT, experience to one up the majority of the applicant pool that attended a traditional university.

It just doesn't click with me that people have to prove more doing one or the other with relatively few exceptions like ivy league or non-accredited technical schools (not really CCs but some people think/treat them like they are). If you go to one or the other and succeed past the standards set there then you should have equal opportunity. If you question the standards of a CC or university then you have to question the standards of all universities or CC or pharmacy schools for accepting them and how they graduate their students, not just one or two of them.

And I'm not getting hot here or anything. I always enjoy a good debate so well-played so far, good sir

I think we're thinking along the same lines here. What my problem is for example is schools that have such low standards and admit students that went to community college with a 3.0 gpa, 50% PCAT etc. Anybody that tried could do that.


EDIT: Looking at the last post you had as well, a top 50 university only represents a small fraction of universities available to students. What about people who don't go a top 50, are they "just as good" as a community college?[/QUOTE]

 

[PharmD RPh]

I don't find it necessary to go dig through on the internet to find facts just to prove my opinion and personal accounts correct. I haven't asked you to do such, so in return I find it quite dismissive.

I wish you luck in your pharmacy practice and working with interns, I really do. It doesn't seem as if you will even slightly open your mind to anyones elses idea unless it was published by some professor at Yale, or UNC.. and to be quite frank, this is a message board where opinions and friendly debates should take place. You took it from one extreme to the next, but regardless I hope you find it within you one day to potentially see that although you may not agree with someone on an issue, not everything they are saying should be thrown out the window.

Anyone can make statements and I like to provide and see statistics... maybe that's the pharmacist in me. I have precepted a countless number of interns from other schools than mine without any issues. If I were asked to precept a student from questionable programs, I would probably have to politely decline. I know that I don't agree with a lot of people on these message boards, as I know a lot of people agree with my points too. And if someone is respected enough in their field to get published or be employed by a top university, then I tend to give more credit to their opinion because its probably reputable. I think where the big divide on this thread is, is between students or pre-pharm students that attend the schools others have listed and those that are in practice or attend the programs that are highly ranked. I think you have good intentions, but like R2 said, you seem overly optimistic which is good in some cases, but not a reality currently in our profession.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I think we're thinking along the same lines here. What my problem is for example is schools that have such low standards and admit students that went to community college with a 3.0 gpa, 50% PCAT etc. Anybody that tried could do that.

Drop the word "community" and I will be on the same page with you. If you have an outlier score then you have an outlier score, regardless of university or CC. If you have LORs, work experience, a 3.0 GPA, and a 50 PCAT then you should be judged the same at a CC or University. That is all I'm saying.

With regards to thinking of this in a pharmacy standpoint, I treat a university and CC like a brand and generic. One costs more than the other and while there sometimes might be a slight variance in the their efficacy, they should be accepted as equivalent and do the same job. Do I think that some brands don't have generics yet, like ivy league? Yes. But overall they both get the job done and should be accepted as the same thing.

Part of the stereotype that CCs are easier is that universities have admission requirements while typically CCs require only a diploma from HS (at least over by me in NC). Therefore, the overall GPA is lower because people who didn't care as much in HS and didn't get the study habits down that they need are in CC learning these things for the first time. But if you start rough and then do better you would be viewed as gaining maturity just like you would in a university.


BTW, on a different note. According to the list so far, Wingate university was mentioned as a diploma mill by some people. I'm applying to Wingate because of the small class size and the fact that they are willing to accept people for an MBA with their PharmD and teach the students the business aspect rather than so ~1 year worth of requirements. The classes don't count in your GPA but you have to pass them to do the MBA which looks appealing to me. Some of the schools people look down on might just have some programs available that people like, or the curriculum looks appealing.

Sorry, just actually started reading this thread in its entirety.

 

[PharmD RPh]

You're correct. It wasn't a "cheap shot" at all. The spirit of my post was countering the "CC prereqs are bad" argument (it's a recurring theme on SDN). In bringing up UK I had two goals: 1) to point out that accepting CC prereqs is not a diploma mill phenomena and does in fact occur at elite schools and 2) and to point out that my UK classmates with CC prereqs were not in fact "lower quality" students who took the easy way out. They were actually very good students who are now licensed pharmacists.

I would tend to believe based on my conversation with administrators and friends that sat on the admissions committee at UK that the predominant proportion of the students they accept are from traditional universities such as UK. Taken from UK's website: "
Do I gain an advantage by attending the University of Kentucky?

There are many advantages to doing your pre-pharmacy courses at the University of Kentucky; however, we do not give preference to UK students in the admissions process. Each year, the largest number of applicants tend to be students who have done all or part of their required coursework at UK. In a typical year, at least 40% of the admitted class have been University of Kentucky students."


So my point, while UK may take some CC students, the overwhelming majority of them are from traditional universities whereas some of the "diploma mill" schools I've seen, the trend is reversed.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I would tend to believe based on my conversation with administrators and friends that sat on the admissions committee at UK that the predominant proportion of the students they accept are from traditional universities such as UK. Taken from UK's website: "
Do I gain an advantage by attending the University of Kentucky?

There are many advantages to doing your pre-pharmacy courses at the University of Kentucky; however, we do not give preference to UK students in the admissions process. Each year, the largest number of applicants tend to be students who have done all or part of their required coursework at UK. In a typical year, at least 40% of the admitted class have been University of Kentucky students."


So my point, while UK may take some CC students, the overwhelming majority of them are from traditional universities whereas some of the "diploma mill" schools I've seen, the trend is reversed.

What's your source for the underlined allegation? After all...

Anyone can make statements and I like to provide and see statistics..

 

[PharmD RPh]

Jabberwocky12;10481386]Drop the word "community" and I will be on the same page with you. If you have an outlier score then you have an outlier score, regardless of university or CC. If you have LORs, work experience, a 3.0 GPA, and a 50 PCAT then you should be judged the same at a CC or University. That is all I'm saying.

With regards to thinking of this in a pharmacy standpoint, I treat a university and CC like a brand and generic. One costs more than the other and while there sometimes might be a slight variance in the their efficacy, they should be accepted as equivalent and do the same job. Do I think that some brands don't have generics yet, like ivy league? Yes. But overall they both get the job done and should be accepted as the same thing.

Then why do we have rankings from US News and Business week and a tiered system of schools? So many people view these publications and base a lot of their decisions based upon this tiered system.

BTW, on a different note. According to the list so far, Wingate university was mentioned as a diploma mill by some people. I'm applying to Wingate because of the small class size and the fact that they are willing to accept people for an MBA with their PharmD and teach the students the business aspect rather than so ~1 year worth of requirements. The classes don't count in your GPA but you have to pass them to do the MBA which looks appealing to me. Some of the schools people look down on might just have some programs available that people like, or the curriculum looks appealing.

Sorry, just actually started reading this thread in its entirety.

A lot of COP have MBA dual degrees now and like its been discussed on here before, there is a complicated ranking system of MBA programs where those at the bottom tier are worthless. No idea where Wingate falls, but FYI. And yes, it won't matter as much since the MBA won't be your primary degree, but it will still matter.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

Then why do we have rankings from US News and Business week and a tiered system of schools? So many people view these publications and base a lot of their decisions based upon this tiered system.

While unfortunate, there are some tiers of schools but that is usually viewed as (top schools), middle ground (majority of schools) and then bottom schools (DeVry, ITT, etc. that aren't accredited). Anything after that and they become subjective and they don't always reveal the full formula for this tiering, which has been mentioned before on the message boards. Now, I will admit that my sources for that are fellow students, some employers I know in different industries, some college faculty and high school faculty in a few schools, and some parents in different fields of work. It's diverse but not all encompassing so there is obviously room for error in that observation.

And, for the most part people like having lists and being told "do this" and "don't do that." It sells so people will listen to them. People will listen to lists published more than their healthcare professional like a pharmacist, as every retail pharmacist would know after saying to take benadryl and they go for the name brand sleep medicine hybrid with diphenhydramine. Regardless of where you go for school there is still a set standard you have to pass to get to the next level of your education.

High schools have the SAT. Organic II has a standardized test you have to take from the ACS so to pass you have to take that test. The PCAT is standardized. The NAPLEX is standardized. If you can pass them you show you have at least the minimum knowledge to pass into the next tier of learning or practicing.

And to be fair, there are lists of all kinds of things that may not always be accurate. People will believe anything if published in an article online. People don't buy generics simply because most magazines and journals call them by the brand because they are more well known, yet the generic still works. The same goes for schools. I read articles all the time saying community colleges work just as well the majority of the time and another way to get a quality education is to go out of the country. So there are all kinds of ways to get your schooling and for the economy right now, I would take it as a sign that a lot of people do community because maybe they couldn't afford Harvard or a private university like Duke over a CC.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Then why do we have rankings from US News and Business week and a tiered system of schools? So many people view these publications and base a lot of their decisions based upon this tiered system.

A lot of COP have MBA dual degrees now and like its been discussed on here before, there is a complicated ranking system of MBA programs where those at the bottom tier are worthless. No idea where Wingate falls, but FYI. And yes, it won't matter as much since the MBA won't be your primary degree, but it will still matter.

I have some bad news for you. The US News and World Report rankings exist to SELL MAGAZINES. And you can't compare community colleges to doctoral granting universities to private liberal arts colleges in terms of rankings because they are completely different types of institutions with different missions and goals. You won't find ONE list that ranks every postsecondary institution in the US. At least not a good list with appropriate methodology.

The best ranking systems are those that stratify institutions according to size, mission, types of programs offered, etc. That at least gives you meaningful comparisons. But the US News rankings are basically pop culture junk, and are not scientific.

 

[Passion4Sci]

I have some bad news for you. The US News and World Report rankings exist to SELL MAGAZINES. And you can't compare community colleges to doctoral granting universities to private liberal arts colleges in terms of rankings because they are completely different types of institutions with different missions and goals. You won't find ONE list that ranks every postsecondary institution in the US. At least not a good list with appropriate methodology.

The best ranking systems are those that stratify institutions according to size, mission, types of programs offered, etc. That at least gives you meaningful comparisons. But the US News rankings are basically pop culture junk, and are not scientific.

I hope Pharmacy never becomes Law. USNW&R ranks are gospel to law schools, prospective students, and prospective employers. The difference between top 6, (some argue top 3...) and top 20, and beyond, is enormous and quite tangible despite how "pop culture"-y the rankings are. Dean Deal @ Stanford Law even addressed it in her opening welcome to my wife's class... it's pretty disgusting how pervasive the rankings are for law.

 

[R2pharmD2]

I hope Pharmacy never becomes Law. USNW&R ranks are gospel to law schools, prospective students, and prospective employers. The difference between top 6, (some argue top 3...) and top 20, and beyond, is enormous and quite tangible despite how "pop culture"-y the rankings are. Dean Deal @ Stanford Law even addressed it in her opening welcome to my wife's class... it's pretty disgusting how pervasive the rankings are for law.

The methodology used for the law rankings is better than that used for pharmacy, but it's still insane to put so much emphasis on them. I think if more people were aware of what goes into the pharmacy rankings (or more importantly, what doesn't) they would realize how ridiculous it is to cite them as irrefutable proof that their school is awesome or someone else's school sucks.

 

[hanhuang]

I got accepted to both Jefferson and UNC, which one should I attend?

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I got accepted to both Jefferson and UNC, which one should I attend?

I'm partial to UNC because I like the campus but I've never been to Jefferson. I'm a UNC student since high school (went to a UNC high school, UNC undergrad)

 

[SHC1984]

Although I appreciate the somewhat support, how are you to say I am naive and misguided? Just because I do not agree with what YOU or most others in the thread find to be true does not make me either. It makes me an individual with an opinion who is trying to bring light to what many write off.

You must be a very young person. You are not bad at all...however you are too optimistic, which is why people are calling you naive.

For example, if you met a guy that plays the lottery religiously you would most likely tell him that he will win one day (and maybe one day soon) right? While most people will tell him he doesn't have a chance. Sounds cold? Well, that's life. Most people wouldn't get that lucky.

Just like if there is a girl that is moving to hollywood right now to become the next movie star....you would most likely tell her she can make it right? well again, most people like me will tell her her chances are slim...especially if she doesn't have any connections.

The same is with the pharmacy profession. The profession is saturated, that is not an opinion it's a fact. There are at least 20 people applying for every job in this country..so if you don't call that saturation I don't know what is. So if a person is a bare minimium kind of student that had a low GPA and PCAT score, but luckily got into a diploma mill school. I will most likely tell him, due to the current and future saturation it will be hard for you to find a job. That isn't mean...I am just stating it like it is. But you however, will again tell him that he can easily land a job without any problems!

I think that is why people on here think you are naive...you are way to optimistic and yes what you say can be true...but the chances of that happening are less than the chances of me winning the 250 million dollar lottery. Unfortunately. I wish what you say is true. I wish there are millions of job openings in the pharmacy profession and anyone can land a job easily with 50K sign on bonues...but it just isn't true.

 

[SHC1984]

I'm partial to UNC because I like the campus but I've never been to Jefferson. I'm a UNC student since high school (went to a UNC high school, UNC undergrad)

I am from North Carolina too. My little sister went to UNC undergrad and now she is at Duke for law school! lol...

 

[PharmD RPh]

I've really enjoyed debating in this thread but I think it's to the point where everything is going in circles. At this point I'm leaving this thread alone. Time will tell the truth.

 

[rph3664]

I know community colleges are easier than traditional universities. Now if you can go to community college and do all your pre-pharm coursework there, and rock out a 99% on the PCAT, then that's different. But you can't sit here and tell me that you can compare a GPA from community college to a GPA from Yale.

It depends on where you go. Most CCs have no admission standards other than a high school diploma or GED, and sometimes not even that; however, STAYING in is another story. In many cases, students can get a better education at a CC than at a university because of the individual attention. In addition, they are usually much less expensive which is certainly a consideration for most people.

 

[SHC1984]

With regards to thinking of this in a pharmacy standpoint, I treat a university and CC like a brand and generic. One costs more than the other and while there sometimes might be a slight variance in the their efficacy, they should be accepted as equivalent and do the same job. Do I think that some brands don't have generics yet, like ivy league? Yes. But overall they both get the job done and should be accepted as the same thing.

.

I graduated from a 4 year university with a chemistry degree. I have only taken TWO classes at a CC due to convience and there is a difference.

The main difference I notice was that at a University most of the exams test a little bit of memorization, but most of the stuff on the exam requires critical thinking. You can't just memorization all your notes from class and memorize the book and expect an A...that will give you a C at most! The classes require that you understand and apply the knowledge that you learn. A very small portion of any exam is pure memorization...some have no pure memorization. I work my ass off to maintain a 3.96 GPA in college!

However, the two classes I took at a CC were BOTH pure memorization. Come to class, take notes, listen to the professor, read the book, etc. memorize everything and you got an A! ALL the material on the exams came straight from the notes!! so how can anyone not get a 4.0 with classes like that?

That is the difference, however I realize that I have only taken 2 classes at a CC so there might be exceptions.

 

[rph3664]

There are tons of universities people don't know about.

Dave Barry graduated from Haverford, a small top-ranked college, and he said about it, "Motto: We never heard of YOU, either!"

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I graduated from a 4 year university with a chemistry degree. I have only taken TWO classes at a CC due to convience and there is a difference.

The main difference I notice was that at a University most of the exams test a little bit of memorization, but most of the stuff on the exam requires critical thinking. You can't just memorization all your notes from class and memorize the book and expect an A...that will give you a C at most! The classes require that you understand and apply the knowledge that you learn. A very small portion of any exam is pure memorization...some have no pure memorization. I work my ass off to maintain a 3.96 GPA in college!

However, the two classes I took at a CC were BOTH pure memorization. Come to class, take notes, listen to the professor, read the book, etc. memorize everything and you got an A! ALL the material on the exams came straight from the notes!! so how can anyone not get a 4.0 with classes like that?

That is the difference, however I realize that I have only taken 2 classes at a CC so there might be exceptions.

Would you also mind telling me what classes they were? Yeah 2 classes is a small sample size group and obviously some schools will be like that while others aren't; I've seen differences in NC State and UNCC for example with taking the same class (long story but it didn't transfer right)

 

[rph3664]

However, the two classes I took at a CC were BOTH pure memorization. Come to class, take notes, listen to the professor, read the book, etc. memorize everything and you got an A! ALL the material on the exams came straight from the notes!! so how can anyone not get a 4.0 with classes like that?

That is the difference, however I realize that I have only taken 2 classes at a CC so there might be exceptions.

What were those classes? Some classes are like that no matter where you go.

 

[SHC1984]

I took western civilization mainly b/c at the university I attended the class required me to read a million books and I didn't want that! lol...so I took it at a CC.

The other class is public speaking...at the time I have already graduated from college and just needed public speaking to apply to pharmacy school.

I am NOT saying that CC is inferior, but it seems to me that CC exams lack the critical thinking element that was on every single exam I had to take in a University. Most of the stuff was pure memorization from notes.

 

[Jabberwocky12]

I took western civilization mainly b/c at the university I attended the class required me to read a million books and I didn't want that! lol...so I took it at a CC.

The other class is public speaking...at the time I have already graduated from college and just needed public speaking to apply to pharmacy school.

I am NOT saying that CC is inferior, but it seems to me that CC exams lack the critical thinking element that was on every single exam I had to take in a University. Most of the stuff was pure memorization from notes.

I'm going to have to take this comment with a grain of salt given the classes. Public speaking has 2 elements; memorization of speech elements and delivery and then actually doing the speech.

Western Civ. is one of those classes where a teacher does it however they want and gen. ed classes vary from place to place because we all know that no one cares about them (at least from NC State and UNCC).

Take organic or physics or stats at a CC and then have an opinion. Do a full semester or even year and then form an opinion. Wouldn't you have more memorization at a Top 200 drug class than in biochem? It would be the same idea with those classes...

Not saying your opinion isn't valid; all opinions are allowed. However, I feel there isn't enough exposure to get a full idea. I have friends who are better at languages from a CC than a university who both took 2 years worth of classes. Languages are alot of memorization AND applying of that information in infinite ways.

And not to sound like a hypocrite but I go to a university so that is my standpoint. One of my friends and my GF go to a community college though and I help them with their science review for tests.

 

[SHC1984]

I'm going to have to take this comment with a grain of salt given the classes. Public speaking has 2 elements; memorization of speech elements and delivery and then actually doing the speech.

Western Civ. is one of those classes where a teacher does it however they want and gen. ed classes vary from place to place because we all know that no one cares about them (at least from NC State and UNCC).

Take organic or physics or stats at a CC and then have an opinion. Do a full semester or even year and then form an opinion. Wouldn't you have more memorization at a Top 200 drug class than in biochem? It would be the same idea with those classes...

Not saying your opinion isn't valid; all opinions are allowed. However, I feel there isn't enough exposure to get a full idea. I have friends who are better at languages from a CC than a university who both took 2 years worth of classes. Languages are alot of memorization AND applying of that information in infinite ways.

And not to sound like a hypocrite but I go to a university so that is my standpoint. One of my friends and my GF go to a community college though and I help them with their science review for tests.

Yeah you are right. I don't have much exposure to CC. I took all my other classes at a university.

Maybe Passion4Sci can tell us more about this issue. The guy is very smart, went to a very high ranking university and a CC. He has more exposure to a CC than me....maybe he can give us his opinions of a CC.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I got accepted to both Jefferson and UNC, which one should I attend?

UNC's the more respected school...but I'd imagine living in Philly is way better than North Carolina...

 

[hanhuang]

UNC's the more respected school...but I'd imagine living in Philly is way better than North Carolina...

I know

I've lived in North Carolina for more than 10 years, I am not sure if I want to move back again. Now I am living in New York City, I really wanna go somewhere closer to home. I am waiting for Temple University and University of Maryland for the interview...

 

[SHC1984]

I know

I've lived in North Carolina for more than 10 years, I am not sure if I want to move back again. Now I am living in New York City, I really wanna go somewhere closer to home. I am waiting for Temple University and University of Maryland for the interview...

OMG, def choose UNC. That should be a given! Living in NC hasn't been that bad...but I did grow up in Charlotte, so it wasn't that country! lol...

Besides isn't Jefferson a diploma mill school? LOL...

 

[Filler]

OMG, def choose UNC. That should be a given! Living in NC hasn't been that bad...but I did grow up in Charlotte, so it wasn't that country! lol...

Besides isn't Jefferson a diploma mill school? LOL...

Did your parents drop you on your head when you were young or are you just too lazy to actually do any research about these schools?

 

[hanhuang]

OMG, def choose UNC. That should be a given! Living in NC hasn't been that bad...but I did grow up in Charlotte, so it wasn't that country! lol...

Besides isn't Jefferson a diploma mill school? LOL...

Is it?? They have well known medical school and hospital...