OEC Problems?

[Jediwendell]

Perio usually gets the second tier students, but there is no doubt in my mind that they could do ortho if given the opportunity. In Pros, dental skills matter more than grades. As far as OEC scholarship students, some are bottom of the barrel. All are at least in the top 50%, and 80 on Part I. I think that was atleast the requirement. Vorosvirag- Why are you a Senior member and I'm only a member?

FWIW I know a guy that inquired about OEC. He was top ten and 90ish and was told he would be a "shoe in" to do the OEC thing. That is probably perio competitive. Not to say that top notch people don't do perio, but I can guarantee you that any of the top notch ortho people wouldn't do OEC if they had a choice.

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[jjonesdds]

Ok, this thread has come a long way from "OEC Problems." There are way too many emotions, personal attacks, and misinformation. I am a current resident at JU, and I would love to post replies to anyone's questions.

First, I will start by clearing up a few things:

1) Yes, JU is still under contract with Lazzara. However, it has already filled 11 of its 14 spots. Lazzara asked (or told) the program director to hold 3 spots until Feb.

2) OEC may, or may not, make a comeback. Lazzara has been trying to sell the school's contract to another entity. He was in talks with AmSurg (I think that's the name - they own a great many of the outpatient surgery centers in the US in which the practicing surgeons are partners (a much better deal than OEC)) I believe this is why Lazzara has requested to hold the spots to buy him some more time to find a buyer.

3) I, and others, agree that no sympathy is necessary for any former OEC residents. I bought my contract out pretty cheap, and those who decided not to knew that they were headed for a legal battle.

4) Most of us knew what we were getting into, and were prepared to get out ASAP. My cubicle-mate and I viewed Imagine as a "seven-year residency" where we could learn more and figure out how we wanted to practice partially on Lazzara's dime.

5) This is getting to be a long post, so please ask me any questions, and I will try to reply ASAP.

Oh, and please stop making comparisons between OCA and OEC - OCA was doing great while Lazzara was at the helm. He made the mistake of taking it public, creating a Board of Directors. It was when the Board of Directors started making decisions that he didn't like that he decided to jump ship. It was after that when OCA tanked. (I know some of this because I'm from around where OCA was founded and is headquartered. Also, I'm not a Lazzara lover, I just don't hate the man.)

 

[vorosvirag]

Doctor Jones,

This is an emotionally charged subject. You shouldn't be surprised about that.

I really don't have any ?s. If you've got more to share on the subject (OEC's problems or its future), I'd be interested.

 

[antidentite]

jjonesdds -

nothing much to add.....this has gotten repetitive......thanks for doing your part to help turn the profession into "Pearle Vision" which was Lazarra's goal according to the below article.

i am sure you are a sunday school teacher too like some previous person mentioned, but it is not worth any more responses if you don't understand yet why people get fired up over this or don't professionally respect you.

quite the analogy lazarra brings to light though. i guess i liked it better when we were considered more like opthamologists than optometrists.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_4614205

 

[vorosvirag]

Nice work to post that story, antidentite.

 

[vorosvirag]

Here's the Lazzara plan right out of the paper:

"his plan to change orthodontics from individual clinics to a brand-name chain similar to Pearle Vision eye clinics."
This is what we feared.


Another quote from the Denver Post:

"Tuition will stay at $10,683 for current students because of CU president Hank Brown's decision to allocate $1 million to the dental school. New students will pay about $40,000, which is comparable to other orthodontics programs."

A fat tuition increase across the board at CU and the other former OEC schools. I'd argue that $40K is not comparable. I'm unsure of the exact average that students pay in the U.S. for ortho residency, but I'll bet it ain't $40,000. The legacy of Gasper and OEC rolls on.

 

[jjonesdds]

jjonesdds -

nothing much to add.....this has gotten repetitive......thanks for doing your part to help turn the profession into "Pearle Vision" which was Lazarra's goal according to the below article.

i am sure you are a sunday school teacher too like some previous person mentioned, but it is not worth any more responses if you don't understand yet why people get fired up over this or don't professionally respect you.

I completely understand why people get fired up - I used to be an ASDA rep in dental school fighting this thing from day 1. I just wanted people on both sides to go back through the thread and look at the personal attacks they were making that were barely related to the issue at hand.

BTW, I'm not a Sunday School teacher, just a dental student who didn't want to kiss a55 doing a GPR at LSU and reapply the next year as I was told by their faculty. I had great grades, was in the top 10 (and 10%), but had not so hot board scores. I figured that OEC was gonna happen anyway, so yes, I "sold my soul" for a guaranteed spot - never denied that.

Also BTW, notice that I've given away some ability to be anonymous by using my usual online username. Any comments I make will be as plain, factual, and level headed as I can make them - I would appreciate the same from everyone else.

 

[jjonesdds]

Oh yeah, and agree the tuition increases suck for future residents. I understand that they were necessary based on University-wide budgeting. I would hope that over the next few years, the universities would adjust their budgets to compensate. However, if the classes remain full every year, I'm not holding my breath for a tuition decrease.

 

[vorosvirag]

I completely understand why people get fired up - I used to be an ASDA rep in dental school fighting this thing from day 1. I just wanted people on both sides to go back through the thread and look at the personal attacks they were making that were barely related to the issue at hand.

Fighting what thing? OEC? Then you embraced it? I'm not looking back. Anything that was said that was personal in nature occurred because people's BP got elevated. Though it's not always commendable to react in such a manner, I believe it's highly normal and even healthy is certain cases.

BTW, I'm not a Sunday School teacher, just a dental student who didn't want to kiss a55 doing a GPR at LSU and reapply the next year as I was told by their faculty. I had great grades, was in the top 10 (and 10%), but had not so hot board scores. I figured that OEC was gonna happen anyway, so yes, I "sold my soul" for a guaranteed spot - never denied that.

That is one of the problems I have w/ guys like you. Gonna happen anyway? What sort of lousy rationalization is that? You took the easy way. You even said so. But I guess it was your only way. At least you're open about it.

What was your not-so-hot board score? Many w/ a score like that (I'm interpreting not-so-hot to be sub-92) didn't get interviews at my school and others. You may never have matched, even the 2nd time around. Kissing a55 is what others had to do to get into ortho. You likely kissed plenty to finish in the top 10. In my opinion, you should have taken care of biz on the boards (where a55 kissing can't help--only determination and hard work do) and you wouldn't have found yourself needing an "OEC bailout." You can call that a personal attack. I call it my calculated analysis based on seeing lots of applications.

Did you realize that if nobody had signed w/ OEC, OEC would not have happened and subsequently failed? Of course, you had to join to get into ortho. If you hadn't "sold your soul" you wouldn't be reading this reply.

Also BTW, notice that I've given away some ability to be anonymous by using my usual online username. Any comments I make will be as plain, factual, and level headed as I can make them - I would appreciate the same from everyone else.

Being open about your identity, Mr. Jones, does not mean you're any more correct w/ your analyses than if you're anonymous. I don't care who you or Firm or the other guys at SDN are. I'm more interested in letting future orthodontists witness debate on the current topics, rather than argue w/ you (known identity or not) about the virtue of being level-headed, plain, and factual. Reasonable people will sift through these threads and determine what the facts are.

 

[vorosvirag]

Oh yeah, and agree the tuition increases suck for future residents. I understand that they were necessary based on University-wide budgeting. I would hope that over the next few years, the universities would adjust their budgets to compensate. However, if the classes remain full every year, I'm not holding my breath for a tuition decrease.

Yeah, it sucks for them. That's likely the same comment you apply to those who never got in who didn't compromise and associate w/ OEC. The ones who tried the GPR (at LSU or elsewhere) and a55-kissing that didn't materialize. I guess you're a wonderful opportunist. You "suceeded." Only time will tell what the rest of your colleagues think about your choices. That's what the earlier contentious debate was about.

OEC promised $ and didn't deliver. That's the primary reason behind the tuition increases at those three schools. They were expecting millions of dollars. Other state schools have tuition well below (on average) those of UNLV and CU. Poor planning and poor partnerships.

Once the tuition is up there, I'd guess they'll keep it there (despite gradual budget changes). Students will always apply and line up to pay whatever the amount.

 

[Kfiles]

OEC residents have to realize that they are part of what will be the current/future demise of orthodontics!!

This is equal to some rich dermatologist opening a residency program and training an extra 20-25% dermatologists a year just cause they are willing to sell themselves to him. I always thought dentistry had it together compared to medicine but even medicine hasn't gotten this screwed up yet!!

 

[GQ1]

Perio usually gets the second tier students, but there is no doubt in my mind that they could do ortho if given the opportunity. In Pros, dental skills matter more than grades. As far as OEC scholarship students, some are bottom of the barrel. All are at least in the top 50%, and 80 on Part I. I think that was atleast the requirement. Vorosvirag- Why are you a Senior member and I'm only a member?

LOL. Really Perio gets the second tier applicants? Haha I never knew an 80 and halfway down the class was second tier but apparently it is to this guy. Let me cut and paste from the AAP website.


The American Academy of Periodontology recommends that programs accept students with class standing in the upper 50 percent; National Board scores about 80 percentile; and, when applicable, GRE scores above 1000.

 

[Firm]

LOL. Really Perio gets the second tier applicants? Haha I never knew an 80 and halfway down the class was second tier but apparently it is to this guy. Let me cut and paste from the AAP website.


The American Academy of Periodontology recommends that programs accept students with class standing in the upper 50 percent; National Board scores about 80 percentile; and, when applicable, GRE scores above 1000.

Second tier is 10-20/25 % class rank, and 84-90 Part I board scores. I believe that fits the AAP criteria. 50% and 80 Part I board scores are the minimum. Next time think, then type.

 

[GQ1]

Second tier is 10-20/25 % class rank, and 84-90 Part I board scores. I believe that fits the AAP criteria. 50% and 80 Part I board scores are the minimum. Next time think, then type.

As you are asking to be walked all over let me demolish you re weak unsubstantiated argument with 2 pointers.

1. Stick to facts.whats the JIP of the source where you got these pearls of wisom from? the poster informed you these criteria were his and SUBJECTIVE....and i thought youd know this as perio is all about research (cos it sure as hell dont have too much clinical skills to learn/steal)
2.there is an ADA document from 2004 showing perio has the most foreign grads, least applicants and fewest domestic residents. this was produced by a perio resident.

we all knew perios would be out of their depth in a parking lot puddle but stick with the little boys if you re gonna argue.

Therefore try removing your tiny tool from fellow perio residents commie buttocks then typing.

 

[aphistis]

For crying out loud, people. If you insist on pissing & squabbling with each other about whose specialty can beat up whose, take it to PM and spare the rest of us.

 

[Holy Thursday]

For crying out loud, people. If you insist on pissing & squabbling with each other about whose specialty can be up whose, take it to PM and spare the rest of us.